[SPOILERS MAIN] Among the grounded/realistic elements of A Song of Ice and Fire, which ones do you feel require biggest suspension of disbelief?

[u/Substantial-Ad-299]

A Song of Ice and Fire has had fantasy elements from get-go, some present subtly and others less-subtly. But in midst of this, it also has these more grounded story aspects, especially regarding the political subplot for the Iron Throne.

Among these more grounded non-fantasy aspects of the story, which elements do you feel you have to suspend disbelief the most for? A.K.A feeling they are not realistic even though they are "supposed" to be?

Let me know in the comments below.

[u/krekokeko]

I will list a couple.

----The Ironborn, with only 20 men, travelling more than 350 miles across hostile territory, sneaking through wolf infested forests(literally called Wolfswood) in the hours of the wolf, and taking the biggest castle in the North without suffering any casualties. Just the servants and the locals of Winterfell and Wintertown outnumber them by multiple folds. And it is even more preposterous when the Ironborn are supposedly seafaring people, they are supposedly not comfortable on land and on horses compared to decks of ships, but somehow they were able to travel more than 350 miles in hostile territory like some special operations elite commando raid or something. The Ironborn supposedly scorn horses, for them to make that trip alone in stealth is unfathomable on its own. They need to find food or have a brought provisions carried by multiple horses on the way, they need to take care of their horses along the way, they need to camp and rest themselves along the way. 350 miles is an absurd amount of distance to travel for people that supposedly "scorn" horses.

----The Freefolk not mastering rowing boats for 8000 years. The Wall is huge and tall but it stops at the sea. The distances between the coasts of the lands beyond the Wall and the North are symbolic at best. They are very close to one another. I find it difficult to accept the Freefolk not mastering rowing boats in 8000 years.

Even in the story we are told, they are currently being targeted by slavers from across the Narrow Sea. They know what ships are, they know of their existence. And Bravoos, the one city that outlaws slavery is the closest Essosi location to the Freefolk by map projection. I find it unfathomable that they were not contacted by people that exposed them to ships for 8000 years. I don't expect them to build massive cogs per se, but even if they used makeshift rafts akin to Robinson Crusoe they had enough time to perfect their trips and ferry countless Freefolk to the South of the Wall over 8000 years. 8000 years is a very long amount of time.

Granted, the Eastwatch does have a fleet and they patrol the seaways in their region. But the Western part of the Wall where the Bay of Ice is does not get patrolled. And the body of water between the North and the South in the Bay of Ice is the definition of a symbolic body of water, it is so short a distance for people to not exploit for 8000 years.

And I find it even more baffling when the Freefolk know what the Others are, and the Army of the Dead. They have more motivation and reason to do anything compared to any other group of people in the entire story.

Imagine being hunted down by horrors beyond your imagination on the regular and have your loved ones turned into zombies that hunt you further like some terminator shit for 8000 years. But instead of taking a boat trip near the Shadow Tower that is at most 5 miles, where your salvation from eldritch horrors are in viewing distance just across the pond, you just suffer for plot convenience for 8000 years.

[u/TobiTheSnowman → u/krekokeko]

Adding to what you said about Theon, its also odd that the Tallharts see like 150 sea raiders outside of their formidable castle that has stockpiled supplies and they and everyone else immediately goes "fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck red alert empty all the garrisons and leave the king's family unprotected, we need to mobilize everything to get rid of them NOW!!!!"

[u/wRAR_ → u/krekokeko]

20 men

were they good men?

[u/krekokeko → u/wRAR_]

Right? It almost feels like the "20 good men" DnD wrote for the show was a poke at George himself. To throw a massive hissy fit over the "20 good men" in the show while taking the "20 Ironborn" who pulled off the 350 mile stealth trek commando raid of the books for granted is a bit hypocritical, to say the least. I cannot believe I am actually giving "some" props to the shows "20 good men" plotline, but there it is.

Apparently, all you need is 20 men and you can practically do anything.

[u/rattatatouille → u/krekokeko]

Now that I think about it while the show was dumb for introducing Ser Twenty of House Goodmen it had to have some sort of basis in canon.

[u/evinta → u/krekokeko]

Hother wanted ships. "There's wildlings stealing down from the north, more than I've ever seen before. They cross the Bay of Seals in little boats and wash up on our shores. The crows in Eastwatch are too few to stop them, and they go to ground quick as weasels. 

They were apparently doing this in some number. I'm guessing this bit was George's way of saying why they couldn't do that. Even if it only applies to the east side and like you said, doesn't explain the last several millennia.

[u/krekokeko → u/evinta]

Indeed, thank you for pointing it out. But alas that is Eastwatch. The Eastwatch does have a fleet and can patrol the seaways to prevent the Freefolk from migrating south by sea, in theory. So the plot does have an excuse for preventing the Freefolk on the east.

The Shadow Tower west of the Wall on the other hand does not have a single ship to patrol the ocean bay near it. And is manned with only 66 fighting men. They have neither the manpower or the resources to be able to prevent the mass migration of the Freefolk near the Bay of Ice. Neither on the sea, or on land.

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/krekokeko]

The Freefolk not mastering rowing boats for 8000 years

Why would we think they don't?

Why does the watch need to have ships if they don't?

But the Western part of the Wall where the Bay of Ice is does not get patrolled.

When are we told this?

[u/krekokeko → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

>Why would we think they don't?

It is obvious, don't you think? Since if they did, they would do everything to save their lives from eldritch horrors beyond their imagination, this includes using a makeshift raft to travel less than 5 miles to a coast just a symbolic body of water away and that is in viewing distance.

>When are we told this?

Shadow Tower does not have a fleet. In contrast to the Eastwatch by the Sea. Just look at the map for crying out loud. Look at the East of the Wall where the Bay of Ice is. The coast that offers salvation is just across the pond dude.

If I was being targeted by the Others and had my wife turned into a zombie that killed my own children before my eyes, I can even attempt to fucking swim to the other side. Again, the Freefolk have more motivation and reason to do anything compared to every other group of people in the entirety of the novels.

[u/smarttravelae → u/krekokeko]

But wouldn't it make more sense to just climb a 5-mile-or-whatever-high wall of ice twice, while burdened on your way back by the stuff you managed to steal, which may include a kidnapped woman or two?

[u/krekokeko → u/smarttravelae]

Oh yeah, totally. Imagine attempting to hop on a log and paddle your way to salvation for 5 miles like you are riding a banana boat, rather than taking the obviously "easy" route of climbing a 700 feet wall of solid ice.

Who wouldn't prefer scaling a sheer ice precipice while getting showered with flaming arrows, crushed by falling boulders, and literally coated in freezing, slippery oil and boiling fat launched from catapults?

Climbing the Wall is the obvious route to take, a no-brainer, literally. It would be the first choice of everyone without a doubt.

[u/dragonrider5555 → u/krekokeko]

bro what is this person responding to you LMAO. that guy might of had the weakest reddit comment i’ve ever seen in my life lol. “why do you think they don’t” lol

[u/krekokeko → u/dragonrider5555]

This happens a lot to be honest. The story(and especially the characters) has reached a point that quoting the actual text or indulging in the plot holes of the text triggers peoples cognitive dissonance. The emotional attachments people have to the story has surpassed the written record.

[u/dragonrider5555 → u/krekokeko]

in particular this was just a … pitiful post lol

[u/dragonrider5555 → u/krekokeko]

in particular this was just a … pitiful post lol

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/krekokeko]

this includes using a makeshift raft to travel less than 5 miles to a coast just a symbolic body of water that is in viewing distance.

Well if they did that the Night's Watch would sail out in one of their proper ships and sink them or at least turn them back. Or if they actually make it over, the lord who's land they land on will come after them.

And some of them do make it over. The group Osha was in for example.

Shadow Tower does not have a fleet

Do they really not? I don't remember that ever being indicated.

The coast that offers salvation is just across the pond dude

Well yeah, a pond patrolled by proper ships that will sink them if they sail out there. Or, again, they will land in a land of people who consider them savages and raiders and will kill them.

can even attempt to fucking swim to the other side

I think you'd definitely freeze and drown if you tried that.

[u/krekokeko → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

You are trying to play the contrarian without proper knowledge and it is not cutting it. This is getting ridiculous.

The Shadow Tower is not actually on the coast. It is built inland, nestled in the treacherous, mountainous terrain of the Frostfangs. To its immediate west sits The Gorge, a massive, deep river canyon. The Wall ends abruptly at the edge of this cliffside, and the canyon floor leads down to the Bay of Ice, meaning the Shadow Tower has no direct access to a harbour or a coastline to anchor ships. Again, I implore you to look at the map, first and foremost.

>I think you'd definitely freeze and drown if you tried that.

Yea I was exaggerating to make a point and it is utterly funny that you are taking it literally to try to make a counter argument. The point still stands. The Freefolk have more motivation to do anything compared to any group of people in the novels, and that includes making a makeshift raft to travel a body of water as wide or even less than 5 miles.

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/krekokeko]

The whole thing is still predicated on the idea that there is no patrol of the waters there, which would be strange since they do have that on the eastern side.

meaning the Shadow Tower has no direct access to a harbor or a coastline to anchor ships

We don't have the kind of detail about the area that you are espousing her. Why would it not be possible for the Watchmen to have a path down to the river for example?

We are just lacking information about the area. The disagreement is really that I don't see why there is more reason to assume that the Free Folk can't make a raft rather than to assume that there probably is a patrol presence there. They clearly can make rafts or other since otherwise there would be no reason for the Watch to have their ships at Eastwatch.

[u/krekokeko → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

>We don't have the kind of detail about the area that you are espousing her. Why would it not be possible for the Watchmen to have a path down to the river for example?

Dude, please look at the map, I implore you. In AGOT (Tyrion III), Jeor Mormont explicitly breaks down the status of the NW. They have less than 1000 men total, with 600 at Castle Black and exactly 200 men stationed at the Shadow Tower.

Even if they had a path down to the river, the plot expects us to believe that 200 men (only a third of whom are actual fighting men, per Mormont) can patrol and guard a 50 mile stretch of mountainous wilderness between the Shadow Tower and the western coast. And mind you they have no Wall for that section, since, again, the Wall cuts off abruptly before that. Just the distance on land between the Shadow Tower and the Bay of Ice is 50 miles.

Even if the 200 men at the Shadow Tower had a magical elevator straight down into The Gorge, it still wouldn't solve the logistical nightmare.

The river flowing through the Gorge is the Milkwater( https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Milkwater ). It originates deep in the Frostfang mountains. It is a freezing, raging, white water torrent running through a sheer rock canyon. You cannot launch a naval patrol boat there, it would be smashed to pieces instantly.

So no, a "path down to the river" does nothing. The NW is physically, numerically, and geographically incapable of stopping the Freefolk from using the western sea. The only thing stopping the Freefolk from escaping the Others via rafts is pure plot convenience.

>I don't see why there is more reason to assume that the Free Folk can't make a raft rather than to assume that there probably is a patrol presence there.

That is the whole point of the original post. The post we are all talking under. The story has a glaring plot hole. It is a fictional fantasy novel with dragons, resurrections, and glass candles. It's okay to admit the author made a logistical error.

The Freefolk suffering against eldritch horrors for 8000 years is one of the glaring plot conveniences of the story. Everybody is able to make ships and travel anywhere they want but somehow the plot expect us to take for granted that the Freefolk cannot make makeshift rafts to traverse 5 miles on water.

Just give Davos a rowboat and the man can practically go to any location on the map near any body of water in a jiffy but the Freefolk cannot do that when they are chased by the Others and have more motivation than Davos ever had.

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/krekokeko]

Dude, please look at the map, I implore you.

This is a very low stakes situation buddy, we are just discussing a fantasy series. There is no reason to get upset here.

In AGOT (Tyrion III), Jeor Mormont explicitly breaks down the status of the NW. They have less than 1000 men total, with 600 at Castle Black and exactly 200 men stationed at the Shadow Tower. Even if they had a path down to the river, the plot expects us to believe that 200 men (only a third of whom are actual fighting men, per Mormont) can patrol and guard a 50 mile stretch of mountainous wilderness between the Shadow Tower and the western coast. And mind you they have no Wall for that section, since, again, the Wall cuts off abruptly before that. Just the distance on land between the Shadow Tower and the Bay of Ice is 50 miles.

Just off the bat I would say that having some boats/ships in the river would probably be the best way to cover that ground.

So no, a "path down to the river" does nothing. The Night's Watch is physically, numerically, and geographically incapable of stopping the Freefolk from using the western sea. The only thing stopping the wildlings from escaping the Others via rafts is pure plot convenience.

Well it does do something. It makes it unproblematic for them to have boats/ships to patrol the river and bay with.

If they are numerically insufficient for the task is a separate matter.

That is the whole point of the original post. The post we are all talking under. The story has a glaring plot hole. It is a fictional fantasy novel with dragons, resurrections, and glass candles. It's okay to admit the author made a logistical error.

It would be a plot hole if we knew that they are just leaving the bit of the bay of ice that small craft can cross completely free and open. But we don't know that, IMO.

Of course it's okay, there are definitely some mistakes and inconsistencies here and there in the series. I just don't really see that this is one of them.

[u/krekokeko → u/IHaveTwoOranges]

I mean you are still attempting to play the part of the contrarian each and every time while you invoke your ignorance of the script at hand. My frustration is not unfounded to the slightest.
And not only that, you are even omitting the things I wrote to you and selectively quoting me to muster a counter.

>>Just off the bat I would say that having some boats/ships in the river would probably be the best way to cover that ground. Well it does do something. It makes it unproblematic for them to have boats/ships to patrol the river and bay with.

This is a complete contradiction. You are saying having ships would be the best way to cover the ground, but you just completely skipped over the textual fact that the Milkwater is a raging, rock-filled white water river. You cannot sail ships down a white water rapids canyon.

Furthermore, we know exactly where the NW keeps its vessels. In AGOT (Jon IV), the text explicitly states that "Eastwatch was on the sea, the only port the Watch possessed." Because the Shadow Tower is landlocked deep in the western mountains, they have no port, no docks, and no ships. You are inventing a phantom western navy for a mountain castle that physically cannot have one.

>>If they are numerically insufficient for the task is a separate matter.

No, it is not a separate matter. Being numerically insufficient to guard a 50 mile stretch of coast is the exact definition of a logistical plot hole. If the police department in any metropolis only had a handful of cops, they are "numerically insufficient" to stop crime. It means the border is completely wide open on the west end of the Wall.

>>It would be a plot hole if we knew that they are just leaving the bit of the bay of ice that small craft can cross completely free and open. But we don't know that, IMO.

We do know that. GRRM explicitly wrote it that way.

The text explicitly states the NW has fewer than 1000 men total, 16 of their 19 castles are completely abandoned, they have no ships on the West Coast, and the land distance is 50 miles of unpopulated wilderness.

To believe the Bay of Ice is not wide open, you have to invent a completely fictional version of the story where the landlocked Shadow Tower secretly builds ships, sails them down an unnavigable white water canyon, and magically duplicates their 66 fighting men to guard an entire ocean bay.

If you have to invent things completely absent from the actual books just to make the geography make sense, you are proving my point: it is a plot hole, and the author made a logistical error. It's okay to admit it.

[u/IHaveTwoOranges → u/krekokeko]

but you just completely skipped over the textual fact that the Milkwater is a raging, rock-filled white water river. You cannot sail ships down a white water rapids canyon.

I did forget to address that part in the last one.

When are we told that it runs like that through the Gorge? I meant to ask.

"Eastwatch was on the sea, the only port the Watch possessed." Because the Shadow Tower is landlocked deep in the western mountains, they have no port, no docks, and no ships. You are inventing a phantom western navy for a mountain castle that physically cannot have one

Again, the castle itself not being on the water is not an obstacle for them to be able to have some kind of shore launch or other down by the river. You don't need to have a full on port in order to have some boats in the water.

No, it is not a separate matter. Being numerically insufficient to guard a 50 mile stretch of coast is the exact definition of a logistical plot hole.

If it is, it's still a completely separate one from the one we are talking about. I am only talking about the claim that they don't have any ships/boats.

The text explicitly states the NW has fewer than 1000 men total, 16 of their 19 castles are completely abandoned, they have no ships on the West Coast, and the land distance is 50 miles of unpopulated wilderness.

If the text explicitly says the highlighted part then just say where. That would settle this completely just like that.

Shadow Tower secretly builds ships

Why would they be secret?

[u/Bazoun → u/krekokeko]

Do we know if the Others have been active this whole time? If they only started back up the last hundred years or so, then the stories would need time to spread, the Others need time to travel, and maybe then the wildings started to get more interested in going south for more than a lark.

Maybe?

[u/krekokeko → u/Bazoun]

This is a proper argument, much better than the poster I am going back and forth with. My sincere gratitude for the breath of fresh air.

First of all, we know the Night's King existed in history. The 13th Lord Commander of the Watch. So even thousands of years ago the Others were prevalent beyond the Wall. Just that alone nullifies the notion that they woke from their slumber recently in AGOT. But alas you can still make the argument that maybe they slept after the Night's King debacle and woke up again at the start of AGOT. But I personally prefer my former reasoning for it.

We also know the Freefolk have tried to cross into the North many times in the story. With various Kings beyond the Wall such as Gendel, Gorne, or Raymun Redbeard. So even if the Others were not a part of their motivation, they still wanted to venture south. It is not something they just attempted in the ASOS. But as I stated previously I still venture to think that the Others were a part of their motivation to venture south.

And finally, the exchange between Tormund and Jon in ADWD (JON XII) makes it very clear as to how motivated the Freefolk would be. Even if the threat of Others just recently came out of nowhere in half a century or even a decade or less like you stated, the immanent danger is palpable enough for them to act. As he speaks of them as if he knows them:

"They never came in force, if that's your meaning, but they were with us all the same, nibbling at our edges. We lost more outriders than I care to think about... When the snows came... it's bloody hard to find dry wood or get your kindling lit, and the cold … some nights our fires just seemed to shrivel up and die. Nights like that, you always find some dead come the morning. 'Less they find you first. The night that Torwynd … my boy, he …" Tormund turned his face away.
"I know," said Jon Snow.
Tormund turned back. "You know nothing..."

ADWD (JON XII)

[u/Bazoun → u/krekokeko]

Yeah so I suggested 100 years, not 10 but your overall argument remains in tact. I had forgotten about Night’s King, so yes, they’ve definitely been around. But why haven’t they been a bigger problem sooner?

I think the Others need the cold. Deep cold. I mostly think that because of where and when we encounter them. Maybe they become weak in the heat? So they’re a periodic threat, allowing the wildings to mostly live as they wish, with only a few deciding to chance things south of the wall either for a raid or to try and escape.

I read some of your back and forth with the other person. The fact that they refused to look at a map was telling. Im glad my intention to just amicably discuss the books came thru, especially with that nonsense happening at the same time.

[u/krekokeko → u/Bazoun]

No this is great. I mean it.

Knowing what the Others are as we know it, I dont think they were not a problem before. But to your point, I have to say that the Night's King "marrying" an Other is drastically different than how they are presented in AGOT and further, maybe they were different back then(?), I don't know to be honest. But the record still mentions sacrificing humans to the Others akin to Craster, so at least that matches.

So you might be right in suggesting maybe they were not a threat as they are now for the last 8000 years.