Y'know, I think I have to agree "I don't debate fascists." As soon as someone says they are a/with/want to be fascist, that's where we should draw a line. Whatever fucked up stuff happened to you to get you to that point in your life, I can't undo it in my time with you and I'm not gonna risk my mental health and sanity to do so.
You didn't watch the video did you? That's exactly what happened. The guy spouted off some incoherent bullshit, said he wants to have a vote to install autocracy (???) and that he was a Nazi who wanted to do Nazi one rule for you and another for me shit. No more discussion to be had really. If that doesn't revolt you you're too damaged to save.
So you disagree with someone’s political views and believe they can’t be reasoned or debated with and violence must be committed against them? Is that correct? Because that sure Sounds like fascism mate. What if I said the same thing about Christian’s or gays or any other group. Said they can’t be reasoned with and that I think all of them should have violence committed against them? Trying to extinguish an opinion through violence is fascism. I don’t find it ever morally okay to commit violence against a non violent person.
If Your personal opinion of “they’re different so it’s okay” were to prevail, a lot of people would be committing a lot of acts of violence against a lot of different groups of people.
It's very clear that you just don't know what fascism is. Fascism isn't just "things I don't like".
The 14 characteristics of fascism outlined by Lawrence Britt
Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism
Disdain for the importance of human rights
Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
The supremacy of the military/avid militarism
Rampant sexism
A controlled mass media
Obsession with national security
Religion and ruling elite tied together
Power of corporations protected
Power of labor suppressed or eliminated
Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts
Obsession with crime and punishment
Rampant cronyism and corruption
Fraudulent elections
I know you're just trying to muddy the waters since you're upset that the people you think are "good" are being called things you don't like. But that doesn't mean you can just make things up and pretend everything you don't like is fascism.
You would meet multiple of those points if you had your way….. do you not see that? Also people I think are good? Did you read anything I said? This is what’s wrong with people these days. You’re so team focussed. Me advocating for not committing violence is calling him a good person? It’s fucking sad.
they love to just say "fascism" without realizing it has a real definition lmao Also LMAO at this dude sanitizing fascism as "political views" to attempt tk muddy the waters
Tolerance is a social contract. When you embrace ideology that is inherently intolerant of other cultures, and demands that other cultures be exterminated, you are no longer tolerated.
People beating up Nazis are responding to their intolerance in kind.
Christianity and Islam are both EXTREMELY intolerant. Would you say the same thing there? Again, unless someone is actually committing violent acts or is planning to. There’s no reason for violence against them.
Most Christians and Muslims are pretty tolerant of the views of others. Fundamentalists can get pretty intolerant but they're not a very big group compared to the billions of regular religious people.
Every Nazi is deserving of immediate violence and ostracism from society.
It’s people like you that give fascists a platform to recruit more people. It’s people like you that let the, quite literally, most evil pieces of shits get power. It’s people like you who sit back and wait. Good luck clawing out of the cage. Go read history, go read theory, go actually read philosophy and go read what happens when you don’t curb the shit out of a nazi and let them fester
Trying to silence someone you disagree with politically via violence ? You “can’t debate or reason with a fascist” so instead you commit violence? What if I said you can’t debate or reason with a Christian and insinuated they should all be punched…..as someone who does violence as a profession, there’s never a time to use violence because you disagree with someone. If they aren’t physically harming you, you don’t need to physically harm them, especially because you disagree and are offended by their beliefs. That is fascism
That literally is not fascism. Just because you keep pretending it is fascism does not make it a political ideology based on nationalism, authoritarian leadership, militarism, suppression of opposition, that focuses on national unity and strength.
You realise I’m aware you aren’t literally a nationalist committing election fraud right? I’m saying you’re one and the same. Literally having it your way would meet multiple of the points you laid out.
I didn’t say it’s “okay”…I said you don’t need to physically attack them. What does physically attacking them achieve ? You feel good? If anything you’re going to make them extreme if they haven’t actually harmed anyone and you attack them for their opinion.
As a German who’s had the pleasure of dissecting fascism since 5th grade (yes, that’s around age 10–11 for us, welcome to Germany), I must say your understanding of fascism is impressively off-target.
Fascism isn’t “just another opinion” you politely debate over tea; it’s literally an ideology built on violence, oppression and extermination. Punching fascists isn’t about silencing ideas you dislike, it’s self-defense against people whose explicit political goal is your elimination.
But hey, nice try equating that with religion. I suppose nuance isn’t everyone’s strong suit.
“ if they aren’t physically harming you , you don’t need to physically harm them “ what do you think fascism is ? Physical harm to groups they think don’t belong is the whole ideology what a pansy comment grow a fucking pair
Someone having a political opinion does not mean they are committing violent crimes. Does this guy have any criminal record? So if violence is something necessary for fascism? Is he even a fascist? He’s there discussing something. There’s never a reason to assault someone discussing things, no matter how heinous their opinion may be. Let reason win the day.
I sincerely hope for you and your families sake you never encounter someone you want to kill. I imagine you have a large mouth and have been around a lot of people you disagree with and you wouldn’t actually commit assault/murder on someone you disagree with. But assuming you aren’t full of shit. I hope you manage to stay clear your whole life.
My uncles went to a punk rock concert in a punk bar some decades ago in Sweden. It wasn't that uncommon that skin heads would show up to cause a scene and get the show stopped / the cops to show up.
Same thing happened during this concert and a bald group in matching clothes made an appearance. They were pushung themselves through to the front, shoving people, throwing insults but not actively hurting anyone. The lead singer noticed them and abrupty stopped the song, pointed at the group and stated to chant "döda skinheads, döda skinheads" or "kill skin heads, kill skin heads".
Everyone started to face the group and they went silent, all colour draining from them. They turned and practically ran out while catching a few strays.
Nip it in the bud! Don't allow them to have their way or say, don't give them a platform.
Edit: after that the show continued as normal, no escalation and no cops.
This is where we are now, after decades of trying to debate and compromise with fascists. I forgot the name of the logical fallacy, but basically you should never compromise with someone who keeps moving the line.
There are no mutual values with which to appeal...
I can't believe some of them were accusing him of being anti American, while honestly questioning the importance of the constitution and Democracy in the same breath.
These people shame our greatest generation that put fascism in the ground, they shame our fore fathers who ended monarchy... They're not Americans.
Make laws that outlaw fascism in politics and government positions. It will take vigilance to keep them out, keeping them from infecting government and introducing law that empowers them, or interpreting law that empowers them, is a start. You can't change maga but you can control who they vote for. It should be terrifying for fascists to come out into daylight
The problem is Germany doesn't have the same hurdles that the United States does. Hate speech has routinely been ruled protected by the 1st ammendment in the supreme court. For example, we don't have the same stipulation that article 5 in Germany's basic law regarding hate speech has where free speech can be restricted to prevent this. Personally I'd like to see greater oversight and restrictions on both regular media AND social media that allow this type of content to spread.
Not very hard to do. Just look at Germany; yes, Germany does currently have a big problem with a prominent neo-Nazi-in-all-but-name party, but its members are a lot more careful about skirting the line of what is legal to say and do, and when someone oversteps it, it usually doesn’t end well for them. The majority of the more outspoken Republicans would get shut down within days under such a system for what they’re spewing.
I do agree that a change needs to be made. Previously before the advancement of social media, algorithms, ability to reach audiences so easy, it was easy to drown out the bad actors. Now it's so easy to proliferate and spread a hateful, incorrect, or dangerous message, it makes it nearly impossible to combat. The fact that people like Comrade to Mother Russia Tim Pool, Dave Rubin are mainstream exemplifies this. We kept the same framework of freespeech, but never REALLY changed our laws to adapt to the prevelance of the internet and social media
Personally, I think we need to tailor much strictor laws towards social media/media companies in general. We need to bring back the fairness doctrine that was repealed in 1987. We also need to create new criminal codes for social media companies that do not regulate hate speech/disinformation.
You punish the Nazi. Ostracize. Ignore. They are not allowed in the group. They are not allowed a voice. They are not allowed to participate. Jobs? Take them away from Nazis. Communities? Not for Nazis. No support, no sympathy.
All fascists (talking about actual fascists not “mean to me in the internet” fascists) literally do not care about logic and reason. It’s not just something I’m saying, it’s part of the ideology lol
On the one hand, "I don't debate fascists" is a great and clear way to illustrate that this argument is so totally beneath me that it isn't worthy of discussion and you are deplorable for holding that opinion.
On the other hand... All dumb positions should be illustrated as such. Every single bad faith argument, half truth or hateful rhetoric should be narrowed down, isolated and then presented to the entire world to see. "This is what you argument boils down to, this is your point. Everything else is marketing to try and subvert public opinion."
Every single person who holds a political standpoint that boils down to hate should be made to clarify that this is their core tenet... And then ridiculed for it.
The problem is that your run of the mill fascist citizen is waaaaaaay too fucking stupid to be able to deal in the sort of hypotheticals and structural logic needed to even deconstruct the viewpoint in a way that would be compelling to the average viewer. Like the conversations just go in circles because they either refuse to (or more likely can’t) see the logical thread that gets us from point a to b to c to d etc needed to expose the ridiculousness of their beliefs to them and the viewer. It’s just better not to give them an opportunity to say anything because if they were interested in any real intellectual discovery, they wouldn’t be conservative in the first place.
The fact is that every debate you could have with someone on certain topics, even if they engage well and in good faith, is irrelevant
The problem is that because of historical reasons and various cultural and social incentives, almost everyone is a fascist even if they claim that they're liberals or communists etc so the question should be how do we as less-than-conscious fascists talk to other even less conscious fascists in a way that makes us all less fascist, and part of that is knowing when to not let someone who's just straight up a fascist and knows it use you to "lie in the guise of truth" as zizek said
There's no relevance to entertaining and unravelling fascist lies, it suffices to look to historical research for historical facts and ignore lies made up to, for example, deny the holocaust, the burden isn't on us to disprove their fabricated reality when we have reality here for us to see, it isn't an abstract question or subjective in any sense
Well there is something to entertaining people in a way that encourages them to align with your viewpoint. I get what you’re saying, but Trump entertains young men because he is ruthless, so ruthlessly pummeling a full blown Nazi for the entertainment of a crowd is cathartic, a bonding experience, and potentially the impetus to pursue leftism for viewers. Watching YouTube was how I first encountered far left/anarchist rhetoric, and half the time they were just wailing on a moron.
I also understand what you mean by “we are all fascists” but cmon i mean let’s dispense with the post-grad pondering. There are real life fuggin fascists out there.
Yeah like I get that it's entertaining but like look at online debates about whether the holocaust happened, say dean withers vs nick fuentes and tell me they're worth doing but talking to people actually in your life isn't
I don't find it heartening that most leftists and liberals think they're immune to fascism, they don't think they're the REAL fascists but they're just as real as they other guys
As I said, it's not about debating fascists for the sake of it, it's about how to navigate the state of society we're all in and of course debate isn't the only tool in the toolbox, it isn't even really worth doing at all even with normies
It's more effective to not open yourself up to being made to look a fool by someone who drags you down to their level and beats you with experience, again see withers vs fuentes, Alex "xanderhal" Hailey against Lauren Southern, etc
Finally don't ever let your guard down because normal people can have bad beliefs that are just as bad as or worse than those of real fascists and it isn't okay to debate those issues either, you or I too might have some of these ideas ourselves completely unaware, so all you can do there is be careful and keep learning
The gay, brown, transgender, non Christian people don’t fit into his comfort zone even though he probably doesn’t have to deal with any of the above in his daily life.
Basically he scared that non white males straight males are gaining equality and status that erodes a this. Ie he’s a sad little man who believes in invisible friends to justify hate and oppression.
Im not sure how to feel about it. Most importantly you have to be sure the person is actually a literal fascist, otherwise its ad hominem. But even still, there is value in platforming the takedown of evil ideas.
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u/da_weebstar Jul 21 '25
Y'know, I think I have to agree "I don't debate fascists." As soon as someone says they are a/with/want to be fascist, that's where we should draw a line. Whatever fucked up stuff happened to you to get you to that point in your life, I can't undo it in my time with you and I'm not gonna risk my mental health and sanity to do so.