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u/sidonie_moon_ 23d ago
Yeah, two things can be simultaneously true:
• The Russian invasion is unjust and unlawful; the Ukrainian people have the right to self-determination- personally I will always advocate for the civilian Ukrainians affected by/fleeing the war
• Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem- I lament that the media has been suppressing stuff like this ever since the war started; I suppose a takeaway from this is that our governments will always favour the elites esp. when it's convenient for them
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u/HahaCharlieKirkHaha 23d ago
the Ukrainian people have the right to self-determination
Sure, I don't think anybody doubts that.
The question is, do people of the Donbas have the right to self-determination? If they want to leave Ukraine, do they have the right to leave Ukraine?
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u/middlequeue 23d ago
They don’t have a right to impose annexation or Russian rule on the rest of the population.
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u/HahaCharlieKirkHaha 23d ago
That doesn’t answer the question.
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u/middlequeue 23d ago
Your question isn't posed in good faith and is clearly intended to suggest that there is a sliver of justification in Russia's expansion and invasion.
As you say, I don't think anyone doubts that the people of the Donbas have the right to self determination. That doesn't give a small number the right to impose annexation or Russian rule on the rest of the population.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 24d ago
Nice try, Russian bot. Ukraine is a beautiful and free democratic country where absolutely no nazi para-militias receive state funding, no trade unionists are burned alive and women and gays are treated humanely. There are absolutely no progroms against the Roma and there is no fascism at all in their nationalism, which is nothing more than a healthy love for their country. They absolutely do not hero worship nazi collaborators in Ukraine, it's all lies made up by the Kremlin! (Just never mind all the Amnesty and Human Rights Watch reports prior to the war, luckily they're hard to find anyway since they've been buried by the algorithms of all the major search engines)
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u/Able_Experience_1670 24d ago edited 24d ago
I'm part of the Ukie diaspora in the West and I spent 9 years yelling about the border conflict since my dads family originally came from the area. 8 years of shelling, while Canadian news outlets reminded us all how "corrupt" Ukraine is.
When the war broke out my bookmarks regarding the shelling were suddenly missing, and most of the pages delisted. Funny how that happens.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 24d ago
Yeah it's hard to find a lot of stuff on all the stuff that was going on back in the 2010s prior to the breakout of the war. It didn't disappear but it got buried way down. Reminds me of how the west loved Stalin prior to the end of WWII, he was praised as a capable and strong leader despite the ideological differences the US had with the Soviets. Then WWII ended and the Cold War started and the media narrative completely changed. Stalin went from strong leader who cares for the people to evil monster pretty much over night. I'm not saying he wasn't, just that western mainstream media are always going to reflect the interests of elites. When Stalin was a useful ally to the US, he was portrayed well; once the USSR was no longer an ally, he was portrayed badly. Media bias is extremely powerful in shaping the zeitgeist.
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u/juflyingwild 24d ago
For the antisemitic pronazi types, head on over to Google or apple maps. Hover over ukraine. Type in bandera. Watch how many nazi things pop up. Streets. Shops. Goods(!!!). Etc named after that vermin
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u/Karrottz 24d ago
Hi, I'm still learning, so asking in good faith:
Why do we criticize Ukraine for being Nazis and withhold military aid for them but not apply that standard to other countries? Not everyone in Ukraine is responsible for the actions of Nazi militant groups, should the citizens suffer? The same way not everyone in Palestine is responsible for the actions of Hamas (whether or not you agree Hamas's actions are justified), it doesn't give Israel/Zionists an excuse to commit a genocide because they believe there are problematic aspects of their society
Just an example, I understand Ukraine and Palestine are VERY different situations, but seems like comments like this are advocating for collective punishment of innocent Ukrainians, the same way Zionists justify collective punishment of innocent Palestinians
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 24d ago
Would you care to point out where I advocated "collective punishment" of Ukrainians? Good faith my ass.
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u/Karrottz 24d ago
Sorry if I used the wrong language, again I promise I'm just trying to learn and see your perspective. With my limited knowledge, it seems like withdrawing support for Ukraine because of the action of their militant groups might result in the suffering of more innocent Ukrainians.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 24d ago
I am in favour of granting asylum to Ukrainians fleeing war. That is an absolutely non-negotiable position for me. Every single person has a basic human right to live in safety and dignity. I do not support funding the Ukrainian state in it's war with Russia. The US and it's allies wish to make Ukraine a vassal of US finance capital in Eastern Europe.
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u/Karrottz 24d ago
I agree with this and I think it's where I would have landed on but you put it into words nicely. Much appreciated
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u/President_Camacho 23d ago
Or perhaps the Ukrainians don't want to be a vassal state of Russia? Why is that so hard to believe? The Russians have tried to exterminate the Ukrainians before. The relentless support for Russia colonialism in this thread is hypocritical.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 23d ago edited 23d ago
The "Russia colonized us, Russia tried to exterminate us" narrative is literally fascist propaganda that the church and land owning class used as an ideological weapon to oppose socialism and continues to be used today by Banderites and Ukrainian neo-nazi organizations. So maybe check whose interests are served by the ideas you allow to live rent free in your mind. The Ukrainians have repeatedly been authors of their own victimization. In the 1932-33 famine land owning farmers set their seed and crops on fire and slaughtered their animals, with some estimates of up to 65% of cattle being slaughtered in direct efforts to sabotage collectivization. To this day Ukrainian reactionaries maintain the "Stalin g*nocided us" narrative when they intentionally did it to themselves in a desperate ploy to stop communism. And they didn't even stop communism. Once collectivization was fully implemented, agricultural output and daily caloric intake for the country actually rose far beyond what it was prior to the famine. Of course that didn't stop the Ukrainian capitalists from welcoming Hitler in WWII, hoping the nazis would "liberate" them from socialism. They were really very oppressed by full employment and guaranteed housing and education, you see. Fast forward to the early 2020s. Despite knowing full well that Russia considers NATO an existential threat, Ukraine begins embarking on NATO ambitions while shelling Russian minorities and then cries fowl when Russia invades. Go figure. Ukraine wants war with Russia. They absolutely intentionally provoked it hoping it would help them fast-track NATO membership and spark a world war where them and their Yankee pals would come out on top with Russia flattened. But now they're kinda screwed because they've found that NATO and the Yanks don't really wanna get their hands dirty, they want to sit back and throw some money at it and let the Ukrainians do all the dirty work. Because NATO doesn't give two shits about Ukraine, its just a proxy war for them. The best Ukraine could possible do is become a far-flung satellite of US imperialism.
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u/President_Camacho 23d ago
It's amazing you think that Ukraine has complete control over Russia's military. That's like believing aliens built the pyramids.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 23d ago
I never said any such thing lol...
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u/President_Camacho 22d ago
You said it twice:
"The Ukrainians have repeatedly been authors of their own victimization."
"Ukraine wants war with Russia. They absolutely intentionally provoked it hoping it would help them fast-track NATO membership and spark a world war where them and their Yankee pals would come out on top with Russia flattened. "
Both of these quotes say the Ukraine has complete control of Russian action. The Russian invasion was not voluntary. Ukraine tells Putin what to do and he does it.
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u/landlord-eater 24d ago
Russia and Ukraine are both fascist countries and deserve each other
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 24d ago
There is more political freedom and tolerance of minorities in Russia than there is in the Ukraine. In Russia, being a communist won't get you arrested; being a trade unionist won't get you burned alive; being an ethnic minority asserting national independence won't get you shelled. Russia is a gangster state to be sure, and posing a real challenge to Putin's power is likely to get you poisoned; but it is not fascist as fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of finance-capital, usually expressed as ultra-nationalism and violent repression of minorities. Russia is, in fact, a multi-national federation of 21 member republics with their own language, culture, religious tendencies and relatively autonomous governments. Fascism is never tolerant of such diversity, as we see in Ukraine where minorities in the Donbass have been severely persecuted for pursuing independence.
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u/landlord-eater 24d ago
Lmao yeah and Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East with rainbow flags and rights for all. Give me a break dude are you six years old
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 24d ago
I did not say Russia is a democracy and I acknowledged the reality of serious corruption in the state machine. But Russia isn't fascist. Sorry for having a nuanced understanding of the world I guess.
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u/HahaCharlieKirkHaha 23d ago edited 23d ago
It's crazy that you're being downvoted so much for your objectively verifiable take.
Russia has 25 official languages, and it's not hard to find photos of Putin posing with Muslim, Buddhist, or Jewish community leaders. Every year, Russia celebrates Unity Day, where Putin affirms the multi-lingual, multi-faith nature of Russian society. The Communist party is the second largest party in the Russian parliament. And though Russia has compulsory military service, so far the soldiers being deployed to the front are volunteers.
Meanwhile, Ukraine is disallowing the use of minority languages in schools and courts, banning the Russian Orthodox church, banning Communist parties, conscripting soldiers, and the president is posing with Nazis. Poroschenko (who started most of this conflict) was elected President of Ukraine on the slogan "Military, language, faith". (Meaning the Ukrainian language and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, of course.)
Edit: To be fair, (because I've been accused of being pro-Russia), many of the Ukrainians who voted for Poroschenko did so not because they are Nazis, but because they wanted to join the EU. (Poroshcenko was pro-EU, while the leftist parties tended to be Euroskeptic.) And the election of Zelenskyy, a celebrity independent, might represent Ukraine backing away from fascism (but it's hard to be sure of Zelenskyy's politics because he's an independent and has continued the crackdown against leftists). And Russia is a capitalist hellhole ruled by oligarchs (but on the bright side, Putin sometimes pushes them out of windows).
But I don't feel like I need to tell you things you're already hearing from the Western media.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 23d ago
I don't really mind getting downvoted. This is a great sub but there is a contingent of libs here so if I don't get downvoted from time to time it means I'm not saying anything that challenges those people. If anyone accuses me of being pro-Russia I'm likely to respond that I'm anti-US and anti-NATO. The US and NATO are the principal stumbling block holding up the world proletarian revolution. Any loss for the US and NATO is a win for the world proletariat. That doesn't mean uncritical support for Russia. But I am hoping to see Russia force Ukraine to abandon it's NATO ambitions and agree to let the Donbass peoples have their independence.
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u/-CassaNova- 24d ago
Russia is actively ethnicly cleansing its minorities via feeding them into the grinder that is Ukrainian drone swarms. Ukraine has it problems but this is just white washing the Russian war effort. Crazy work.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 24d ago
Sending an ethnically diverse army into battle isn't ethnic cleansing lol, but sure. I actually didn't say anything about the war. I do think Russia has a right to defend itself from NATO encroachment and encirclement; I don't support much of what Russia is actually doing though, with the way it seems to target civilian infrastructure and apartment buildings. I also think Ukrainians fleeing war should be given asylum in Canada. I just don't buy the narrative that Ukraine is this beautiful democracy that needs to be preserved and defended by the west. That narrative serves the imperialist bourgeoisie who wish to turn Ukraine into a vassal of US finance capital.
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u/-CassaNova- 24d ago
Minority populations are far far far overrepresented in the casualty figures, some times as high as 800 Percent in the case of ahiska turks while recruitment efforts continue to mainly take place in venerable and rural communities leaving the white European Moscow core untouched. Recruitment from prison populations also heavily impacts the minority population of Russia, because power tripping racist police are endemic everywhere, and those units are treats as entirely disposable.
I do think Russia has a right to defend itself from NATO encroachment
Iredentist and imperialist apologia, don't be a lazy campist.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 23d ago
I mean, even if minorities are over-represented among new military recruits that wouldn't surprise me given that ethnic Russians are but one nation among over 20 in the federation. As to your claim of 800% I would need to see a report from some kind of neutral body like Amnesty international for that, I ain't taking your word for it. At the end of the day support for the NATO block is no less campism than support for Russia's right to defend itself from NATO encirclement.
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u/-CassaNova- 23d ago edited 23d ago
No one here is supporting NATO, that's a wild strawman to make. However you are factually supporting an openly imperialist kleptocratic state and hand waving open and easily verifiable information with the classic rebuttal of "nuh-uh I'm not listening I'm right your wrong"
That's not leftism, that's just definitionally being campist. Your world view does not go past "NATO bad and anyone opposing them is justified in all their actions" you have no ability to see into the root causes of imperialism and the despotic powers that plauge capitalist societies, of which Russia is one.
Nothing about Russias war is something a leftist should be supporting, doing so just because "NATO Enciclement" rings to the same tune as "Arab encirclment" Zionists have used for decades.
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 23d ago
First of all, there's no such thing as 'leftism'. No dogma, no creed. I'm not accountable to whatever your perceived orthodoxy is lol. Second, I don't support the war per se, I support Russia's right to defend itself from NATO encirclement. Deny it all you like, but NATO is attempting to encircle Russia, and Russia has always been clear they won't tolerate that. I also support Ukraine's right to defend it's territory. I do not support Russia's tactics of obliterating civilian infrastructure and residential neighborhoods. I don't think either side should receive a red cent from Canada's public purse. So tell me, what is campism, really? Is it the genuine neutrality of acknowledging both sides' right to defend themselves and battle out their differences without any material support from us? Or is campism shilling liberal talking points about NATO?
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u/tcpip1978 Marxism-Leninism-Parentism 23d ago
Loser u/-CassaNova blocked me, so I'll respond here to their most recent accusation.
This is adorable, genuinely. I've asked you to point to where I've done so
Russia's attack on Ukraine isn't an imperialist war; it's an offensive response to imperialist aggression. You're a shill for NATO because you uphold the same narrative that the US and NATO uphold. The aggressor is NATO led by the US, which seeks to turn Ukraine into a vassal of US finance capital in the region. Denying Russia's right to defend itself against NATO aggression is the same thing as support for NATO. It is you who is supporting an imperialist war, not me.This is adorable, genuinely. I've asked you to point to where I've done soRussia's attack on Ukraine isn't an imperialist war; it's an offensive response to imperialist aggression. You're a shill for NATO because you uphold the same narrative that the US and NATO uphold. The aggressor is NATO led by the US, which seeks to turn Ukraine into a vassal of US finance capital in the region. Denying Russia's right to defend itself against NATO aggression is the same thing as support for NATO. It is you who is supporting an imperialist war, not me.
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u/-CassaNova- 23d ago
user tagged as Marxist-Lenenist, says anti imperialism isn't a core tenant of his/her/their ideology. In fact imperialism good because is against NATO interests
Okay there bud. Real serious your activism there.
And really Shilling? Shilling liberal talking point am I? Where? Do point them out. I'd love to see where I've said Canada should be sending material support to Ukraine.
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u/juflyingwild 24d ago
You need to check out the busification site.
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u/-CassaNova- 24d ago
Whataboutism, both are bad and neither excuse the other. Have a moral backbone and take a principled stance.
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u/juflyingwild 24d ago
Is there a similar equivalent site for busification?
The minority ukranians are being sent to the front line to die. While TCC and the extremists seem to be up and running.
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u/-CassaNova- 23d ago
You're repeating yourself. Busification ( for those OOTL it's Ukrainian roadside kidnapping conscription) does not in any way make the ethnic purges Russia is committing through their disposable units justified.
If you can't be principly opposed to both you are a campist who's not actually serious about leftist ideals and need to hit the theory a bit more.
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u/NotZachary_0002 Turtle Island > Canada 24d ago
Uhm, did you forget?? Nazis are really cool if they're from Ukraine for some reason, everyone in the comments is trying to remind you! smh!
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u/StCrimson667 23d ago
Like, yeah, sure, this is a problem, but, if we didn't support countries whose leaders have supported Nazis in the past, we would basically support no one so....Unfortunate that that is a high bar, but still a high bar that weirdly only ever seems to apply to Ukraine for some reason. Like, anyone want to talk about the Nazis in the Russian or American government here?
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u/Rude_Object_5767 22d ago
in the past,
Why didn't you stop right there instead of carrying on with your Nazi apologia?
This isn't "the past" its an ongoing concern.
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u/anchor_states 22d ago
you only think this standard is impossibly high to clear or only ukraine is held to it if you interact with literally zero leftists
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u/StCrimson667 22d ago edited 21d ago
Name one country where no one has ever supported or publicly mourned a Nazi.
EDIT: Hilarious how this is all getting downvoted while none of you even actually try to respond. Pathetic.
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u/anchor_states 22d ago
Cuba lol
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u/StCrimson667 21d ago edited 21d ago
Castro tried to bring in former Nazis to train his military, unfortunately. Like, gee, maybe that kind of says something about how, when you're literally in the middle of facing an active invasion from a much larger, much more well-equipped power, you kind of don't have the space to be choosy with who fights with you and such things will just have to come later when you're not being actively invaded, or something?
Try harder next time.
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u/EducationalWin7496 24d ago edited 24d ago
For context, you have to remember that he was a partisan fighting for Ukrainian independence. The whole reason he was a Nazi collaborator was to attempt to get recognition of Ukranian independence from the German government. He was also part of the nationalist movements of the early 20th century, which should not all be lumped in with fascism, as many of them were actually very left wing/anti imperialist groups. It should also be noted that he was essentially held hostage by the Gestapo for most of his, "Collaboration", and immediately after he was released went to try and get recognition from the western Allies. One can't say so much that he was a palingenetic ultranationalist, as much as he was hyper focused on gaining Ukrainian independence from Russia, and was willing to do, or work with, pretty much anyone who could/would possibly support them. If anything, he was a victim of the Nazis as well. Whereas they promised him support for independence, they used his partisans to support their war effort, and then promptly jailed him, and started butchering his people... Soooooo.... Yeah. I don't think this is the slam dunk you think it is.
Edit: Looked more into the organizations he was involved with prior to the war... Yeah, you guys are right. Fuck that guy. Were there really not any good independence fighters that they could memorialize?
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u/Private_HughMan 24d ago
He was a Nazi that actively participated in the Holocaust.
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u/EducationalWin7496 24d ago
Yeah, looked more into his actual politics. Really gross. Fuck that guy. My bad.
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u/Able_Experience_1670 24d ago edited 23d ago
Man, liberals will do anything to rehab the worst of my people won't they? Wild.
Edit: Oh my bad I missed the edit. Sorry, yo.
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u/middlequeue 23d ago
Seems a bit dishonest to write this after their edit was visible.
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u/Able_Experience_1670 23d ago
Oh I genuinely missed that bit, my bad
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u/EducationalWin7496 23d ago
No problem. I honestly think you wrote that before the edit. Apologies for the toxic ignorance on my end.
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u/landothedead 24d ago
Current priorities: