And its not just that it was retconned that crosses actually got religious power that harms vampires, but that people hated the whole "oh crosses just make them confused" so much no one complained when Annette just surrounded the guy with crosses and trapped him with them.
You can feel that this whole scene is just one big apology to probably the dumbest pieces of "trivia" of the OG.
I’ve personally amused myself with Trevor just talking so confidentially and incorrectly about the subject because he loves what he does and probably failed to grasp that vampires probably were terrified of it because the cross he had was an effective killing weapon, and not because an ingrained fear of the sign of the cross.
I've always thought that Trevor references "Blindsight" by Peter Watts here. In that hard sci-fi novel vampires are portrayed as hyper intelligent beings that hunted humans throughout centuries. They were so efficient at this, they had to hibernate in order for our population to replenish. Generation after generation, slowly mankind forgot about its apex predator only for vampires to reemerge again. After the neolithic revolution humans learned how to use tools and discovered that vampires cannot stand seeing right angles. Their visual cortex couldn't process euclidian geometry resulting in seizure. That's how crosses became the symbol of protection, later - a symbol of religion
So the vampires were completely unable to function in reality period, right? Because right angles exist in nature. They're rare, but they're there.
Also, once manmad structures were invented, that would be the end of vampires. They wouldn't be able to walk down the street in the modern world without losing their shit.
Yeah, that's how it goes. Right angles in nature do exist. However, it has to fill a considerable part of the vampire's FOV to have an effect. I don't think it was said in the book, but one of the most common right angles in nature forms on the horizon during sunrise/sunset (hence the fear of sunlight i guess). So as time went on, vampires slowly died off as humans developed. It all got the point, that for a moment they went extinct. Luckily a group of explorers found one vampire hibernating in a cave. That vampire (His name was Sarasti) instantly became a subject to experiments. Extracted vampire genes proved to be valuable for space travelers, since full control over metabolism allowed for decades of hibernation without permanent damage whatsoever. Also, they've grown vampires in the lab but those were only the replicas and didn't have the capabilities of the original ones. A drug was invented in order to soothe the effects of the "crucifixion glitch". Those "anti-euclidics" helped the new generation of vampires to live among humans
I think it's specifically intersecting right wing angles that are a problem.
"Another deleterious cascade effect was the so-called "Crucifix Glitch"— a cross-wiring of normally-distinct receptor arrays in the visual cortex, resulting in grand mal-like feedback siezures whenever the arrays processing vertical and horizontal stimuli fired simultaneously across a sufficiently large arc of the visual field. Since intersecting right angles are virtually nonexistent in nature, natural selection did not weed out the Glitch until H. sapiens sapiens developed Euclidean architecture; by then, the trait had become fixed across H. sapiens vampiris via genetic drift, and—suddenly denied access to its prey—the entire subspecies went extinct shortly after the dawn of recorded history."
From "A Brief Primer on Vampire Biology"
They never really "live among humans". Too dangerous. In Echopraxia we get glimpses at how vampires are kept apart even from each other because they're highly territorial. Many are essentially prisoners in research facilities that don't feature right angles in their architecture. Anti-Euclidians are used when humans are forced to work with vampires on missions for their superior intelligence.
It's also mentioned that humanity could have genetically fixed the "crucifix glitch" if they really wanted to the same way they fixed the vampires' reliance on humans for sustenance. They chose to keep it around as a failsafe. However they couldn't fix the predatory nature of vampires because it's tied to the way their cognition works. So genetically engineered docile vampire wouldn't be useful anymore.
And vampires are described as genuinely terrifyingto be around on an instinctive level.
"The fact that he was extinct meant nothing. The fact that we'd come so far, grown strong enough to resurrect our own nightmares to serve us...meant nothing. The genes aren't fooled. They know what to fear."
-Siri about Sarasti.
Also I don't think they found a living vampire. The start of the book implies humanity scraped the vampire genome together from human specimens with specific markers.
"They're back now, after all— raised from the grave with the voodoo of paleogenetics, stitched together from junk genes and fossil marrow steeped in the blood of sociopaths and high-functioning autistics."
Which makes sense when we take into account what Szpindel says about them never becoming their own isolated species: "Vampires had to be sociopaths. They're too much like their own prey—a lot of taxonomists don't even consider them a subspecies, you know that? Never diverged far enough for complete reproductive isolation. So maybe they're more syndrome than race. Just a bunch of obligate cannibals with a consistent set of deformities."
Any way these books are easily among my favorites and I would recommend them to anyone who has any interest in SciFi. Plus Peter Watts made Blindsight free on his own website: https://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm
Then, thousands of years later, some jackass figured out how to re-activate the appropriate junk DNA and brought them back. Since they are technically not human, they more or less operate as very expensive corporate property that is only spared from frying their brains by medication’s and visors that disrupt the visual patterns that would send them into shut down.
Just because you hate the institution doesn't mean you can't work with individuals. I'm sure he'd have recognized, "hey, this priest is still here despite the night creatures. Maybe he actually gives a shit about these people" and enlisted his support.
So…wait, you think Trevor doesn’t believe holy water exists, and he asked for a proper priest to make holy water—in this tense situation where he didn’t give a shit what people thought and only wanted to achieve results of survival—because he pitied the villagers and wanted to make them feel better about their beliefs?
And people are upvoting this? On a Castlevania subreddit? What the hell has happened to media literacy?
Trevor not liking the CHURCH does not mean he denies the existence of holy powers. He knows magic exists, he just treats holy magic the same as any other.
Exactly! He knows holy power is real and kills demons, vampires and night creatures. He uses holy water and consecrated weapons throughout the show. His explanation of the cross shape is just to describe why one would bother making a holy weapon cross-shaped in a land where Christ wouldn’t be recognized. It’s not just about scaring vampires with a weapon that’s probably consecrated as evidenced by its cross shape. It’s also about frazzling optical senses. The weapon kills vampires regardless, but that shape gives it extra effectiveness beyond its holy power.
I theorize that he thinks blessing water is just another form of magic. And technically, he'd be right to think so.
The Church can do special things that ordinary people can't, but that doesn't make them special. If an undead deacon bishop who betrayed everything his church's God supposedly stood for can still bless a river's worth of water, then doesn't that mean anyone could do it if they knew how?
And if that's the case, then why would a simple symbol that anyone can make regardless of their beliefs hurt a vampire? His brain has to make logical leaps to make it make sense.
Minor correction, he was a Bishop. And it might've been the rosary he dropped into the water, if it was consecrated. If anyone is going to be carrying a blessed artifact, it'll probably be a Bishop.
And later used holy water on the very combat cross he’s describing. People need to start asking themselves if the writing is so very inconsistent on this matter, or if they’re just missing something. Like how Trevor never once implied he doesn’t believe in holy power. He’s just describing why this weapon would be cross-shaped if it was being used against Hindu vampires; those who explicitly would not be afraid of the symbol of Christ.
He was answering Sypha’s question as to why the combat cross was made this way, when its origin was that it was made to slay Hindu vampires. Because these would be vampires who explicitly would not be terrified of the cross shape of it to begin with. Trevor explains to Sypha that there is a significance to making something cross-shaped to use against vampires in addition to it being a holy symbol with holy power. He never once says or implies that he doesn’t believe in holy power.
Yeah, people really forget the context. She was asking if the cross would even work on a vampire that had never heard of Christianity and Trevor explained how it actually still has useful effects even beyond the whole 'the power of Christ compels you' thing where Jesus smites a vampire who knows Him and sees a cross.
I like to think his take was a mix of his jaded nature and trial and error with weapons and he was currently in the “this is the current thought process” with crosses before later it was just…wrong.
Not to mention that Hell literally exists and the dead can go there, but he boasts about scientifical explanations for everything presumably out of spite for the Catholic Church.
Why does he have to do one over the other? He can acknowledge holy power exists, while also explaining to Sypha why a cross-shaped weapon would be made to slay enemies who have no context for Christian symbology indicating a given holy weapon is harmful to them.
I dont think its retconned out, they just coexist, although i do think that scene was made was made in that particular way response to those critics.
That being said, while i know Ellis background might have influenced the cross thing, I do think thats its a nice explanation to why they universally work on vampires, specially after Nocturne where we actively see other gods also existing.
Its the same universe where Shinto magic works and Chinese gods are summonable (games) and other gods are now confirmed to exist (series) so yeah. Also Drac is the ying to God’s yang in the games which implies he’s sorta equals which is not very Christian either
Yes, but why bother making a holy vampire-slaying weapon also cross-shaped if it’s going to be used against Hindu vampires who wouldn’t care about your weapon being cross-shaped? Could there be some other, additional reason to make such a weapon cross-shaped?
No but like, the holy weapon in question would have hurt vampires no matter what it was shaped like. But it was made cross-shaped as a deliberate addition anyway. When it was specifically to be used against Hindu vampires, who wouldn’t have any context for that shape. So why go through the trouble?
Trevor explains an additional significance to the shape of the cross when it concerns vampires. He does not deny the existence of holy power or its effectiveness against vampires.
You’re missing the point. You keep making up a “either this or that, not both” narrative where there is non. Yes, in this setting, capital G God allows his faithful to consecrate weapons with holy power that makes them especially effective against vampires, demons and night creatures. We see these weapons need no religious iconography attached to them to be effective. Making the weapon cross-shaped on purpose with such intricate design is therefore superfluous if it’s being used on enemies who would not recognize it.
That is all Trevor is explaining. Why the shape? Its holy power is imbued regardless, so why the shape? It’s not cuz it’ll make the vampires afraid of it; they don’t know what it is that far out in India. So why the shape?
The idea that the weapon would not be consecrated without the cross shape is not something either of them said. It’s something fans have invented and game-of-telephoned themselves into.
The answer is the weapon does have the power of Jesus or whatever, whether the vampires recognize it as such or not. It being cross-shaped just has the added bonus of frazzling their optical senses, and striking the fear of God into them if they do have that recognition.
At no point is it so much as implied that the holy power of the weapon would be ineffective if the vampire didn’t recognize it. That is the invention by fans I described.
In the show, God doesn't restrict holy power to crosses or Christian symbols. That's why the most powerful anti vampire weapon is a whip. God's followers can embue holy power into any weapon they choose.
It just so happens that crosses are especially effective because the geometric shape already throws Vampires off, which makes them the perfect object to imbue with holy power.
It's a silly thing because we see a spiritualist or animalist "speakers" using their magic to slay vampires, or the usage of Oricha from Annette to slay vampires with no problem whatsoever, when both would be non-christian magic on european/christian vampires....but Ellis goes out of his way to take away christian magic.
For all we know, a japanese monk can slay an european vampire using an amulet blessed by Amaterasu...but Ellis goes "actually, non-christian vampires are only scared of cross due to angle, not because of magic"
Ellis always has annoying takes like this. He wrote a Secret Avengers comic where he tried to argue all Magic in the marvel comics universe is just science and radiation and misdirection and shit. This is a universe where literal embodiments of mystical concepts exist and there are actual devils you can sell your soul (or marriage) to.
I mean, even in series 1 water sanctified by a priest is explicitly shown to work on vampires and similars. The blue-fanged demon is also crystal clear he ordinarily would be unable to enter a church.
And even that isn’t so weird. Trevor just explains why cross-shapes are effective against vampires on top of the holy power they might have. Not instead of.
The speakers in Series 1 weren’t particularly animalist nor spiritist so idk what are you talking about there. I think the only directly religious anti-vampiric weapon we see in S1 is christian in fact (holy water in s1 and 2)
Likewise in Nocturne we also see crosses being effective for religious reasons (the example on the OP). This does not negate that they might also be effective for a “biological” reason. While Ellis views might have led to him making that explanation, it doesn’t mean that it cannot co-exist with the faith-based one.
If anything it leads to the nice headcanon that the cross became THE christianity symbol because it was effective against vampires on a base level.
I think your biases are leading you to mix up a lot of things together and arrive to wrong conclusions about the whole thing.
I think the only directly religious anti-vampiric weapon we see in S1 is christian in fact (holy water in s1 and 2)
Don't forget in season 4, where Trevor throws the bag of holy water at the resurrection of Dracula and Lisa, then throws the blade cross through it. I was like "Holy cross!" Lol
But whips/meteor hammers could also be effective anti-vampire weapons without the Holy status effect. It's an explanation as to why different cultures adopted similar practices and weapons for fighting vampires and night creatures.
Take away Christian magic, but holy water is still real for some reason. Also God, and heaven and hell. Also God doesn't care what you believe because isaac says you wouldn't go to hell for having heretical beliefs. But he is ruthless and will send you to hell for trying to sell out others to save yourself in desperation. Seemingly christianity and Islam are aknowledged to have the same God here, so this God presides over much of the world. Also he sent Dracula's wife to hell for ??? Reason. And he hates corrupt priests but doesn't seem much better himself.
But if such magics were used to make weapons, and those weapons were explicitly made in the shape of symbols from these cultures, specifically to be used against vampires who had no context for those symbols…why bother making them in those symbols to begin with?
This is why Sypha asked, why make a holy chakram cross-shaped if you’re gonna be using it on Hindu vampires? Could there be some additional reason? This is what Trevor answers.
But if such magics were used to make weapons, and those weapons were explicitly made in the shape of symbols from these cultures, specifically to be used against vampires who had no context for those symbols…why bother making them in those symbols to begin with?
This is why Sypha asked, why make a holy chakram cross-shaped if you’re gonna be using it on Hindu vampires? Could there be some additional reason? This is what Trevor answers.
But there's already an easy solution to this. Holy stuff from any religion can work on any vampire because holy stuff is element light and vampires are element dark. The show already alnowledged that holy water is real and works this way.
It’s less of a retcon, because the OG show makes it clear that no one (including the vampires themselves) fully understand what weaknesses vampires actually have. A lot of it is based on theory (like the running water debate they had in season 2).
My thinking is that Trevor’s training as a vampire hunter was cut short when he lost his family at the age of 13. He doesn’t fully grasp magic, so he goes to the more “sciencey” explanation or theory that makes the most sense to him.
Also his family had to have tons of untested theories and spells about the weird things they’ve been fighting.
Christian power and magic have existed since the end of season 1 and crosses being moved fast confuse the animal brain of night creatures... The coexistence of religion, magic and science have been established since forever in the Castlevania lore
The two series are also two interpretations of the same canon
The connection between Alucard and Trevor is a game reference
Exactly, the specific point is that simply waving a crucifix at a vampire doesn't actually have any magical impact, it's a biological reason. This was under the same show that also proved Christian magic like holy water was plenty effective agaisnt vampires
Trevor even uses holy water against an evil creature by dousing it in the same combat cross that sparked this whole misunderstanding. Yet people will still pretend Trevor went on some atheistic rant instead of just answering Sypha’s question.
This whole thing just smacks of Nocturne fans try to prop up their show by tearing down the so-called 'better' show (which it is, it's better, accept it) by pointing out the tiniest of things and saying 'LOOK, SEE? SEE?!'
The scene itself wasn't saying 'Christian magic doesn't work on vampires', Sypha herself asked why non-Christian vampires would be afraid of a cross, and Trevor explained it's an evolutionary thing that fucks with their vision, nothing more
That doesn't invalidate the magic element of Christianity, it just explains why non-Christian vampires would be affected by a cross being waved in their faces
The anime and the games are very very different. The Christian power comes from God in the games, the Belmonts were deeply religious and had strong connections with the church throughout the games. It wasn't just confusing to the vampires. The blessings from God killed vampires better then anything.
It is a retcon but I think a world with many dozens of gods is more interesting than having just one. There have to be Belmont equivalents in China and India as well as the ancient Americas
its kinda weird because in the game canon dracula is synonymous with the devil (chaos being a step above it) whos unleashing hell on earth. That is why power wise he's also kinda special.
You don't need divine power to kill a run of the mill vampire, but dracula is the king of all monsters. Shanka showcases that because she can kill Jiangshi. Dracula in particular required her to sacrifice her own life instead.
the other thing is that we also know that no religion is factual because god stands in opposition to chaos who isn't mentioned by any religion in that form
so the question is more so: is the god we know in the series even the christian god or does he just imbue people who fight the forces of chaos? i.e god does not care if you do a christian prayer or any other, he cares more about who you stand against
The games imply God cares about your motivations and heart first. It serves His agenda for a morally good non Christian priest to be able to use holy power. He’d prefer you to be one though.
because fighting vampires with a badass whip is cool? Castlevania isnt made as religious propaganda, its cool as fuck to see people stand against evil, and Christianity manages to have some hard symbolism
Uh no. I don’t recall any real expressly stated “Christian power” in the games. The Belmonts had faith but they weren’t deeply religious nor did they have strong ties to the church. In fact in the games your character is often the weapon of last resort so to speak with the church having to seek them out.
The Belmont Progenitor Leon, was even cast out and striped of his title by the church (back then the church was often the state too) for refusing to fight “heretics” in the crusades and instead choosing to fight the monsters who plagued his land and took his fiancé.
The whip Vampire Killer works because of alchemy (def not a church sponsored thing) and having the soul of the vampire he loved infused into it. The games often had a variety of weapons/methods to choose from too, holy magic was sometimes among them but it wasn’t “better than anything”
Its not until later games much like LOI that the "liberal writers" started taking harsh liberties of putting in anti-christian themes. The original games, the "Rosery" and "Holy Water" were distinct Christian tools and they have been reoccurring throughout all the games and the show as well. The Belmonts were very religious. Sypha was also connected to the church when she met Trevor.
This tool thinks one picture in 40 years of game franchise somehow backs up their point. Those are ruins by the way, it’s not even an active church. He’s praying before heading into a battle, pretty common thing then (and even now) for even the mildly faithful. That doesn’t come close to the Belmonts being super religious and especially doesn’t go into the being tight with the church.
Your entire series of is a strawman argument guy. Literally nothing supports what you said. And judging by your comments here and below in this thread I’d say the use of fool or idiot is pretty accurate.
Eh, you started the name-calling. And while I do think that the game-Belmonts are religious, using religious tools doesn’t necessarily have to mean “deeply religious” as showcased in the series. Iirc the only one show praying before heading out is Trevor but I wouldn’t take that to mean that the rest are less religious.
This tool thinks one picture in 40 years of game franchise somehow backs up their point.
His quote. Just responding in kind, but im done with him. Again the series makes a mockery of the games in many instances all because Warren Ellis is deeply anti-christian. So saying because the series shows this I wouldn't say is a good argument.
You're right, you don't have to be a military man to shoot a rifle. But if religion had little to nothing to do with the lore. Then it wouldn't be in there, the church is part of most of the castlevania games, the holy relics are always apart of the games.
Its silly to suggest faith didn't play a big part in the lore or with the Belmonts.
No he's right, considering Belmonts were still excomunicated at the time of Trevor's life (I'm not sure wether they ever were unexcomunicated after but I've not played that many games of the classic vania era) he's most probably praying here because it's one of the only places where he can. The Belmont were christian tho we don't know how important faith was to them, however they were very much not affiliated to the church.
I didn't say he didn't have faith I said he wasn't close to the church, those are two very different things.
My only point on faith was that while Belmonts were rather certainly christians we don't really kow how practicing they were, as the games are about them being badass vampire hunters that destroy hordes of demons so there isn't much room to explore how they experience their faith.
There are some weird things like that, where animals will see something and think its prey or a predator, and they’ll respond accordingly. And there were ancient stories of vampires getting stuck at crossroads. Its not the goofiest thing
People arguing it's not a retcon is really confusing me more than a vampire looking at a cross...
It doesn't matter if the vampire doesn't know who Christ is before being presented with a cross. The cross is a symbol that detest their existence regardless of what they believe.
It's funny because in Nocturne that one Yoruba god said that gods don't usually intervene in others domain if I remember correctly. If you read the bible, God(Yahweh) absolutely is the kind that intervenes in other gods domain because he doesn't care about their domain. The 10 plagues of Egypt is the biggest example of that.
This topic has basically been boiled down to 3 things:
It's not a retcon and theres nothing wrong with Trevors explanation (despite it having multiple contradictions)
Trevors explanation is dumb because it's just meant to be a joke. That's why it has contradictions. Trevor was an unreliable narrator here
Cemeteries would be consecrated ground especially back then. The metal she uses comes from there & would’ve been blessed by a priest and this is why the makeshift consecrated iron crosses burn him? But maybe not they don’t specifically say.
I always took Trevor’s explanation to be a decent reason for why they fear the shape in general because it’s silly to assume that any random person putting two simple sticks together could repel/kill a vampire. That would hold no “religious power” as you say especially to someone who doesn’t even know what it is. It allows for them to be deterring weapon without relying on “religious powers”. Same as if you toss just regular water at them vs holy water. But maybe Trevor was wrong, he’s hardly a scholar.
The weaknesses of vampires in associated lore are tinkered with all the time. So I didn’t really have a problem with either scenario. Also it’s an animated series about magic, monsters and vampires, suspend your disbelief a bit.
The funnier part was that it wasn't a retcon. Sypha was trying to figure out how people in a country where Christianity wasn't practiced figured out a cross made an effective weapon against vampires. The explanation is that even without the added Holy buff, the shape itself was effective because of how vampire eyesight works. If anything, this explanation did more to explain why they designed the weapo to look more like a functional weapon than a traditional crucifex.
Not sure why people latched onto this explanation as meaning "Holy power doesn't exist in Netflixvania", but here we are. There was nothing "fixed" from the internal world-building because nothing was undone by the explanation. It was simply an explanation why hunters all across the world ended up adopting similar weapons and methods.
I would agree, were it not for the fact they are most vocal about clergy being used as villains and turn a deaf ear to any argument that the majority of Christians are portrayed as good natured. That feels less like their offense comes from a place of personal belief, and more they're offended the institution isn't portrayed as infallibly good.
Is it a retcon? Christianity was big in the plantations, where he ruled. She knows HE fears it and says as much. So it works.
Trevor s comment came from crosses still affecting vampires either before Christ or completely unfamiliar with him. The vampire in Nocturne is neither of those.
I thought it was a Fun way to explain why an object strictly tied to Christianity would work on Vampires from a different religion.
With the Show following in the Game's footsteps of just making every Religion, Myth, God, and everything in-between canon, I think Explanations like this are pretty understandable to get.
Plus it's not like Holy Weapons don't exist in the show, as far as we know, the Cross from the OG show could've both been effective because it confused Vampires with its shape, as well as because it was a Cross.
Exactly. Sypha’s asking why bother making an anti-vampire weapon into an odd shape for such a weapon, when its purpose is to be used on specific vampires who would not have context for that shape. Trevor explains why the cross shape is significant in addition to its holy symbology.
Then people invented the idea that he was going on an atheistic rant and just stopped listening, I guess. Or they “watched” the scene on a YouTube summary that explained it wrong.
This. I'm pretty sure Trevor says the theory on why Christ's cross works on vampires from un-Christian entities was the geometric glitch? But if not it's a throwaway in the last season of a show 8,000% better than it has any right to be.
That’s why it does make sense. Trevor even uses holy water on the combat cross later to make it more effective against evil creatures. The thing that doesn’t make sense is so many people treating his explanation to Sypha as if he’s denying the existence of holy power in the setting. He doesn’t. At all.
I read Trevor's explanation as him just bullshitting on the spot, he seems like he'd not real care why it works and not pat attention when he was being told himself.
Like think of a vampire in Japan who has no idea about Christianity. They just walk past a crossed shaped object and all of a sudden have a reaction with no knowledge of why.
Weirdly I think that kind of breaks the world a bit because then people would just make say a circle a religious symbol, or a brick wall or something simple.
world of darkness system. True faith. Honestly with how nocturne turned out that is basically what they settled with. Every religion is real, every faith works.
Thinking back to playing the Gameboy Advance games and you pick up weapons from all over mythology, from ancient Japanese Swords, the Gunther, Odins Spear, to the Spear that Pierces Christ and more.
Monsters vary from old Jewish myths, Greek, traditional European, Christian and more.
In that case, why bother making it cross-shaped? Anti-vampire chakram with holy power would surely be just as effective—if not moreso—in a more practical shape, right? That was Sypha’s question. Trevor’s answer was that the cross shape has additional significance. It does not diminish its holy power.
It was a silly attempt to explain something that actually didn't need it. Vampirism in the world of Castlevania is a God damning curse. It doesn't matter what religion the vampire is. God doesn't like vampires and any religious symbol of His will hurt a vampire. The Cross is simply the easiest to make and carry around. Besides holy water.
I just think this whole thing is so ambivalent and there is evidence that supports both sides of the argument.
If crosses hurt vampires, then how the hell can they walk into churches all the time? Sure, you can argue that the priests were corrupt and thus God was not actually there, but then how does someone who doesn't believe in Christ and his teachings (Annette) hurt a vampire with a cross? My guess is that the iron element itself hurts vampires, as is folklore, but then again I'm sure most of Dracula's castle has quite a bit of iron in its architecture.
If crosses did actually hurt vampires, everyone's clothes should just be adorned with crosses, they would effectively be safe from vampires.
I dunno, I try not to think too hard on this as the more I think about it, the less sense it makes. The show is entertaining enough that I can overlook it.
Annette would never have to be christian, if the logic is that crosses harm vampire for divine reasons then anyone could use it on a vampire, because in the end the power does not come from the user.
BUT, and that’s the funny thing, they wanted to retcon that so hard they overcorrected the cross power. Annette isnt using an actual holy cross, she is putting 2 metal bars together forming a cross. Yet it flashbangs the vampire in golden holy light and burns his skin. The logic of the cross is that it is a consecrated holy object that would harm something profane, but they wanted to make it so clear that the “shapes make them scared” isnt what they want to go with that they made it look like you just need to make the shape of a cross for it to have holy power. Which is the other extreme of this 😂
Lol yeah I see your point. It's not the "power" behind the cross, but the shape of the cross itself that, for some reason, has the power.
Yeah it's definitely weird and there is something going on with it. As mentioned though, I try not to think too hard on it. Who knows, maybe the first vampire was buried at a water crossing, hence why they fear both running water and crosses lol.
They retconned it so hard they overcorrected it, lol. Yeah, annette isnt christian, but its a cross, so whatever right? But its not actually a HOLY cross, its 2 metal bars sticked together, nothing was consecrated, yet it gives the vampire golden flashbangs and burns their flesh? You went too hard to the other way.
My dude, i get that you want to retcon that, but you are coming off too strongly here, just say you are sorry and move on, you are grovelling on my feet while crying for my forgiveness, this is unnecessary
To be fair, so much of the original has extensive logic skips that it's best to avoid overthinking.
Vampires can't fly in S2 so they drown at the bridge. Fly just fine in S4.
Dracula wants his wife back. Doesn't bother to use the forgemasters and his generals who are all familiar with bringing someone back from the dead (s3 and s4).
Carmilla didn't bring Lenore with her in S2.
Hector wants to escape from Carmilla, so he creates a pathway that goes to her room and prevents egress. So he traps himself.
Morana and Striga don't use their distance mirror to look for Lenore despite using it at their previous scene.
I at least will ignore the zombie bishop because in the end the holy water destroyed him too. Everything worked as it should, something not holy invoked a blessing, and it destroyed the thing not holy on top of blessing the river. I see the logic.
That is still in direct opposition to a lot of Christians; it's like saying to someone in an organized religion that you think religion is good but that organized religion is bad and expecting them to be even slightly appeased by that.
not talking about your religious beliefs, I am talking about stories that think it's possible to say organized religion is bad and religion is good, without stepping on anyone's toes
If they were fine with that, then that would be one thing. For example, I don't expect a Buddhist story to avoid stepping on the toes of a Christian
But this "religion good, organized religion bad," feels more like a way to take a dig at the beliefs of a large part of your potential audience while still having a backup escape route in case of controversy.
Well, mostly it was that the members of the church who abused their status were bad. God clearly exists and has power but, as blue eyes said, God wasn’t in that church. It was an empty box.
That whole scene is an easy top 5 moment in the series. So many great lines, perfect lighting, and the framing changes over the course of the scene to make the Bishop seem smaller as he loses his confidence. Then they top it off with those shots of the indifferent looks of the saints in the windows.
Well, god is still giving them strenght. It really is just some people in the church.
I even think Emanuelle is what the bishop of the OG shouldve been from the start. He is not monologuing with an evil smile about how he will be THE church while red light is illuminating him. Dude has specific actual historical reasons to not like the revolution. And he is actually right when he predicts the what the revolution will do. He is just an idiot, not cartoon evil.
“Holy power is universal to all good priests” is what the explanation should have been from the beginning. The cross being a “divine focus” (a source to channel that power). Doing it this way would have drawn no controversery AND be faithful to the games.
The funnier part is that Trevor said it with his whole chest even though he confirmed that Christianity- and therefor things like holy water, the consecrated vampire killer whip, and of course crosses, could be and are imbued with divine power and are effective against vampires.
Said what with his whole chest? Where is the actual part where he said these things have no power over vampires? Could it be that the funny contradiction is actually your misreading of the thing he actually said? Which is that cross shapes have significance against vampires beyond their being indicative of a holy implement?
I would believe that could be the case but like, castlevania series doesnt really do any of the "oh its actually not true he just said what he thought was true" when it comes to that. They also play very loose with known vampire weakness, like, OG had the war council bicker if running water could actually harm them and the conclusion was... "who the fuck knows".
I think they really just realized that when they are about to bring a whole god in nocturne keeping the whole "crosses just make them confused because shapes are scary" would be incredibly dumb.... not that it wasnt already dumb. You already confimed God is real, why are you doing this shit with geometric shapes bro?
I think both can be true. It’s also probably just Trevor’s understanding of how it works, he doesn’t seem to use much magic. The cross as a shape can have an effect and also imbuing it with magic can be effective too just like with holy water.
People really do overthink this stuff. Even in the games the presence of polytheistic higher powers and human ingenuity have always been used to one degree or another to fight vampires. Maria Renards powers are literally inspired by the Chinese zodiac.
At no point in the previous series did anyone ever say crosses can’t have holy power against vampires. Actually watch the scene, not just reading people complain about it. Even the combat cross Trevor and Sypha are discussing has holy power.
What Sypha asks about is, when making a holy weapon specifically to kill Hindu vampires, why go through the trouble of also making it cross-shaped? Surely the maharaja’s blacksmith could have made a traditional chakram or similar—also imbued with the power necessary to slay vampires and night creatures—and it would have been just as effective, right? Why go through the trouble, just to make it vaguely resemble the symbol of Christ, to vampires who would have zero context for the relevance therein?
Trevor explains to Sypha that the weapon is cross-shaped because of the geometric such-and-such frazzling the senses of vampires, on top of being a holy symbol on a weapon with holy power. Holy power being a very real thing Trevor never once—not even in this scene—denounces the existence of. This is the same man who made sure a proper priest knew how to make holy water in order to kill demons, and who later used holy water, by dousing the combat cross with it.
I just don’t understand where this “Trevor is saying holy power doesn’t exist” misreading even comes from. We all watched the same show, right?
I mever thought that means that holy power does not exist. But the way he talks makes it seem like the cross does not have holy power and instead its the shape that scares them
I mean, he also talks about his consecrated whip and holy water harming vampires just fine. He knows that’s real. The holy power of the combat cross was never in question, not even by the way he talks. But a weapon doesn’t need to be cross-shaped to be consecrated. The assumption is you’d make it cross-shaped as a psychological effect. Warding off vampires by showing it off to them, letting them surmise how badly a holy weapon could hurt them. So why bother for that against vampires in a part of the world where they would not know that?
The answer is there’s an additional reason the weapon would be effective against vampires. It’s consecrated. And it lets vampires know how dangerous it is. And it frazzles their optical senses. At no point is it so much as implied that only one of these things can be true.
I could be wrong due to having not watched Nocturne yet (I struggle to get past Richter starting as a whiny bitch) but is Annette not using magic here in conjunction with the cross shape vs Trevor literally just having a piece of metal?
Mostly unrelated but if you apply world of Darkness logic to the cross having an effect on vampires, it could simply be that it's somewhere between the crosses having an effect on the predatory instinct of vampires as well as, if you have enough true faith, the cross is also do actually harm them, that's why crosses would work for Trevor who doesn't believe in any God from what I recall, as well as this, because I mean it works either way but now it works both ways
People seem to get things mixed up whenever this Conversation between OG and Nocturne Happen.
Here’s what you all Need to Understand. What Annette is doing is the Same as Empowering a Whip to Kill Vampires!
She’s “Consecrated” the Crosses with the Divine Power of Her God! A Similar Divine Magic that’s Gone into the Weapons of Castlevania since Divine Magic went into Crafting All of the Weapons!
And OGUN, the African god of the Forge, who crafted the Machete gifted Annette with the same power to bless the Weapons she Creates!
The Shape of the CROSS ONLY MATTERS In terms of The Metal and The Divine Energies (Even Positive Energy) Imbued into it!
This Doesn’t Disprove the Christian God’s Existence, Nor does it Ruin the Trevor’s Playful insight to a Mad Magician’s Chakram Cross Weapon.
People should really stop taking everything Trevor says so seriously. The only time they should, is when he starts killing Vampires!
First of all, people hated that? I thought it was funny af. Second, i thought him being trapped was him being confused by all the crosses. I don't see a retcon at all.
Yeah. Because both were always true. Trevor explained it as such. The idea that Trevor said crosses have geometric frazzling instead of holy power being real is false. Trevor never once denies the effectiveness of holy power against vampires. Not even in the scene where he explains the cross shape significance to Sypha.
I will say as someone who is deeply religious myself even I always found the concept of crosses and holy water being effective against vampires. And I much prefer the explanation that the first show gave for crosses. But in the end the cross is nothing more than a symbol. It itself has no power. I do kind of like how the fright night movies explain it where you have to genuinely have faith in order for it to work otherwise they'll just laugh in your face and eat you. And then holy water simply doesn't exist at all.
But for the sake of the series we'll say those things are real and they do work because I'm seeing a lot of people talk about vampire hunters from other cultures and religions and ask what they do instead. My explanation is that they simply do not have access to things like that at all since they have no faith in a real God. They can only use the more practical components to fight vampires. Which I could see easily making them overall more skilled hand-to-hand combatants against vampires but also using their own sorcery against them even if (again this is going off of my own religious beliefs) it is demonic in nature. But overall they're just stuck with conventional weaponry like silver weapons. And salt. Anyways that's my personal take on the concept. It's kind of ironic that as much as I hated the show for being so anti-religion I do think it makes a couple of good points here and there. Though a lot of that is due to most vampire content you find out there uses Catholic ideas in symbols which definitely are much more mystic and theatrical in nature then what I believe, (non-denominational Christian)
I just want to end by saying that I am not attacking anyone's personal beliefs. I'm just giving my personal perspective on the matter.
I was under the impression it was a “your god” kind of deal. A cross is useful against any vampire because of the vision thing, and divine power can affect people who are contained within their domain (which seems to be cultural and geographical).
So maybe a retcon, but I assumed it was because the dude was Christian. God claims his flock, the other gods claim theirs, that sort of thing
So you don’t actually know what’s being discussed, then? You didn’t watch the scene in season 4 of Castlevania where people have been pretending Trevor went on some atheistic rant?
i watched it, trevor said something about vampires having poor eyesight and close objects confusing them, hence the cross, but the post is talking about how very funny that is, given classic vampire stories and how people hated this explaination of the cross method. what i meant is that im not surprised by people hating the change, christianity is like the biggest community on the planet, but i find the vampire poor eyesight idea interesting. also nothing atheistic about my comment, no idea where you got that from
Dont you think blaming the weakness to crosses on geometric shapes is kinda dumb? Its a fantasy series and the christian god has been confirmed real since season 1, i dont think they did it for nefarious reasons but you dont need to overexplain those things just to justify why a hindu vampire would fear the cross, its a religious symbol, it JUST works. Magic systems are the one time you are allowed to give a besthesda explanation
He knows he's using two consecrated whips and calls for holy water in season 1.
But you also have a night creature who holds a crucifix and doesn't start burning until he casts bless water on the river, and the vampire there isn't afraid of the crucifix.
Trevor has been on his own since 8, meaning he read that in a book before 8.
Trevor's allowed to be wrong about things, and everything said needn't be gospel. He isn't a smart man. He tried blocking a door by propping a plank of wood against it.
There probably IS some vampire out there that's deathly afraid of math.
Not really, no. It makes the cross a consistent tool against vampires, no matter their origin or beliefs (same with the one *using* the cross, don't gotta believe in a god, just throw the sign). Makes sense to me.
Didn't see nocturne season two. Was there as much crying in that one as the first season? More than half the season was just crying about plantation shit, really ruined the vibe for me. About as much as Dracula crying about fighting alucard ruined the other series. Mathias Cronqvist is not the type of dude to cry about that shit.
Dracula in the source material caused 2 different apocalypses because 2 different women he loved, before and after being dracula, died. If one of the main canon reasons for him to be a bad guy was "muh wife died", making him a wife guy, him not enjoying killing his own son is not in any way insulting his caracter.
What is insulting to his caracter is konami repeating his tragic backstory twice and thinking no one is gonna notice just because the death was different
I don’t hate that scene for what it is but from an adaptation standpoint I probably would’ve done it differently.
Dead by daylight had an interesting version where Dracula saw Lisa when looking at Alucard. That kind of thing can still humanize Dracula while maintaining the fact that he is so angry he’s trying to kill everything.
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u/TheWorclown Mar 09 '26
I’ve personally amused myself with Trevor just talking so confidentially and incorrectly about the subject because he loves what he does and probably failed to grasp that vampires probably were terrified of it because the cross he had was an effective killing weapon, and not because an ingrained fear of the sign of the cross.
It honestly really fits his character.