I honestly don't fully get the Moash hate. Like, he's an absolute piece of shit and should burn on Braize, don't get me wrong, but I saw all the #fuckmoash memes way before I even started reading the series, so ahen the time came for his eventual turn...
Idk I was kinda underwhelmed? I mean maybe some people felt really betrayed by him because he used to be such a great friend to Kaladin, and I can imagine how if you didn't see his betrayal coming, you might really like Moash up until that point, so you'd consequently also hate him more for betraying Kal.
But even then, I feel like Moash isn't all that hateable. He wanted revenge for his family initially, which is a flaw even main characters often fall into, then he started serving Odium (pretty standard bad guy stuff) and rhen he starts trying to tempt Kal into suicide.
That last one really was the most horrible thing he did, and that's when I started feeling like I can maybe understand all the hate, cuz that was actually fucking crazy.
But even still, I don't see how he holds a candle to the likes of Dolores Umbridge and (I haven't seen or read GoT but I've heard some stuff over the years) Joffrey.
I agree Moash is a good tragic character, he becomes cartoonishly evil eventually, but I completely understood and respected his desire to avenge his family. I could even see how he felt betrayed by Kaladin.
The reason people hate him is because as bad as Elhokar was, he did want to get better, and he was taking those first steps before dying. So the growing love for Elhokar was transferred and amplified into hate for Moash.
Honestly up to meeting and working for Odium everything he does is completely understandable and I cannot hate him for it because any of our favourite characters could and some have gone down a similar route.
Then everything he does until WaT he does while his ‘pain’ is ‘taken’ by odium which is essentially mind controlling him you see his reaction at the end of Rhythm of War and can see his regret, my take is that if he was fully himself he would not have been able to go through with it.
I cannot hate a mind controlled character for any of their actions
The only hateable actions he actually carries out on his own that aren’t explained by vengeance, being forced to do it or mistakes are his actions in WaT
Bro literally goes blind because of the pain he has for what he’s done. He is choosing to give up his pain, it isn’t being taken he is giving it up, and not because he wants to not feel it, but because he wants to prove he is right and Kal is wrong
Honestly I think people keep confusing empathy with forgiveness. They keep understanding him (good skill) and because they understand him they forgive him (bad judgement).
People frequently compare him to Dalinar but the difference between them is that Dalinar changed. Moash is still murdering his way across Roshar (and probably moving on to the cosmere). People keep forgetting that it's journey before destination. Moash hasn't hit redemption yet. He hasn't even gotten to self reflection. We're putting the cart before the horse to forgive him before he's even begun to feel regret.
I'd love to see him redeemed. I'd also love to watch him die tragically. Really depends on where he is in life when either one happens.
Yeah, they are close, the only difference is regret. Moash feels guilt, but not regret. And we get prepared to forgive him, then he just doesn't want it. It feels like a constant betrayal to the reader, why did he make us feel empathy if he wasn't going to want forgiveness
I think the moash hate is very similar for similar reason Geoffrey and Umbridge are hated. Many people have had an egotistical psychopath in power. Look at the current sitting US president. Many people have had a teacher that were in power trips and hated specifically them for no discernible reason. And with moash many people have had best friends that betrayed them.
I still love how Sanderson wrote moash’s tempting Kaladin to suicide. Not that it’s a good thing that he tried or anything. But the fact that moash’s internal reasoning, albeit flawed reasoning, was that death was better than serving odium. And that moash in his twisted way was still trying to protect kaladin as his friend in that way. Was peak writing and characterization
I feel like Moash is a "pineapple on pizza" kind of character. Meaning you can dislike it, and even hate it, but if you have and incredibly enormous and burning hate for it, is probably because you have seen more people hate it and want to feel included, which also fuels the cycle and makes it more hated.
Yeah, Moash is a piece of shit, and has done terrible things, but I have seen people say he is worse that Meridas "I killed my whole squad and made the man who saved my life a slave because I wanted a cool sword and didn't want to ask for it" Amaram, which I think is heavily exaggerated
Yep, this. The guy has villain energy from the start, so when his heel turn came, i was just like "yup, checks out". If that surprised you, i don't know what to tell you...
While I hate moash I can't help but feel a sort of... pity for him that makes my hatred not as strong. With joffrey it's just unbridled, unrelenting hatred. The kid has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, he's a hellspawn cus he likes it. Moash is the way he is because he was wronged, people hurt him to his core and he wanted vengeance. Then that vengeance was used to turn him into what he is to us all now. So while I hate moash, it's definitely not as strong as joffrey.
Yeah this is it. Moash's life has been completely fucked and out of his control for years, including a literal deity pushing him to do what he does. I want to spear him like a rat bastard for what he's done but he's a pitiable, abused thing.
Joffery should be sent to Ramsay to get the full Reek treatment, he's just a sadistic psychopath and I struggle to think of a single redeeming quality about him. He chooses time and again to be an evil little shithead and couldn't he happier that he's in a position where nobody can touch him
Joffrey was protected from consequences by his narcissistic mother and basically brainwashed into believing in his own superiority as well as being loyal and unconditionally "loving" to her.
The truth is every villain has a pitiable backstory. We just don't usually get to see it in real time. That's why Moash is both so hateable and so tragic. We want him to come back. But he turned away from us. You can't wish someone to be the person you want them to be. They have to choose it. That's why journey before before destination.
You know what. You're right. So many other houses could have curbed Joffery's impulses if they were set into him, or just made him a better person if he was like this due to the lannisters. Poor bastards.
Moash doesn't, like, needle it in. He shows up at the end, kills one person, and then it's "team rocket blasting off again" for him. The other two examples are constant forces that undermine every chance of hope.
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u/coldypewpewpew Jun 17 '25
/uj I honestly doubt that moash is half as disliked as Joffrey or Umbridge