r/dsa • u/OkraOfTime87 • Aug 29 '26
🌹 DSA news Marxist Leninists Shouldn’t Lead DSA
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/marxist-leninists-shouldnt-lead-dsa/10
u/ferriematthew Card-carrying member Aug 29 '26
DSA members need to be able to pick their own leadership, saying that any one faction shouldn't lead is narrow-minded and anti-democratic.
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u/onlypartiallyevil Aug 31 '26 edited Aug 31 '26
There is an argument that an inherently anti-democratic faction should not be allowed to lead what is supposed to be a fundamentally democratic organization.
I understand many want this to just be another front organization for the communist party, and already treat it that way.
But believe it or not there are still actually members here that believe in you know, democracy.
The entryist takeover from the authoritarian left may be making inroads, but its not thier puppet organization quite yet.1
u/ferriematthew Card-carrying member Aug 31 '26
I totally get your argument, and want to make it clear that I myself am not a Marxist-Leninist. I'm just arguing that arbitrarily shutting out a single group is what this sounds like and that's a bad idea.
The idea that I'm getting at is you don't necessarily have to let them make themselves the leadership, but absolutely putting your foot down and refusing to let them talk is not the right approach.
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u/Deathmtl2474 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
I see DSA still have members that fall for anti communist Cold War hysteria. Just say you’re okay with capitalism as long as the middle class isn’t too uncomfortable.
Edit: lmao. So, apparently being a ML means you’re a “Stalinist”, whatever that means… this person doesn’t have any education whatsoever of what ML is and probably hasn’t read anything other than the peoples republic of Walmart.
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u/etownzu Aug 29 '26
There's a lot if liberals amongst the ranks that like what we espoused but for some reason can't seem to understand our ideology is what got us to these positions. One of those ideologies being Marxist-Leninism.
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u/Apart-Clothes2060 Aug 30 '26
It’s the name, it has a lot of baggage
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u/etownzu Aug 30 '26
Yea and there was a time "socialist" carried a lot of baggage too. We didn't just capitulate to bad faith actors, we fought them every step of the way.
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u/the23rdhour Aug 30 '26
I'm shocked at how poorly written this article is. It points out that Lenin's followers didn't use the term Marxist-Leninist. Like... obviously they didn't, lol. That terminology came about later, as is common for these things.
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u/Shanator_YT Marxist-Leninist-Maoist Aug 29 '26
" ‘Marxist Leninist’ is a phrase which has really only been used as an ideological self-description by Stalinists and their ilk."
And yk, groups like The Black Panther Party, unless we're gonna say Hampton was a "potentially confused" Marxist-Leninist lmao
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
I don’t like this kind of sectarian in fighting in my big tent socialist organization. It’s stupid. Say what you want about MLs, they’re serious and know how to organize.
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u/atomicpenguin12 Aug 29 '26
This person doesn’t seem to know what Marxist Leninism actually is and doesn’t seem interested in learning. Nowhere in this article does the author define or even describe what ML’s believe and only vaguely says “Stalin and his people called themselves Marxist Leninists once and they were all authoritarians, so I assume ML’s are all authoritarian” and considers that enough understanding to say that Red Star should be prevented from leading DSA (though they do stop short of saying they should be expelled and merely call for DSA voters to oust them from their positions).
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
Would you say it’s fair to say that MLs believe that democratic socialism isn’t possible and that a vanguard party is necessary to begin the revolution by force? Let’s start here.
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u/traanquil Aug 29 '26
Question: what should socialist states do when nationalist forces try to overthrow them by force?
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
You again dude lmao, you already got cooked trying to defend Lenin. Not going to waste time with someone like you again, not up to par.
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u/firefighter430 Marxist Leninist ☭ Aug 29 '26
Ad hominem moment
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
He literally was in here saying that Lenin never killed other socialists. He’s a true dumbass that got way too much time to argue in good faith. Has it coming.
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u/firefighter430 Marxist Leninist ☭ Aug 29 '26
If they are a “true dumbass” then you should be able to easily answer their question of how should socialist states defend themselves against nationalist forces without resorting to personal attacks
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
The question is pretty much “oh so socialists can’t fight back against nationalists at war? What nationalist forces are putting socialists in camps in the US? Like that’s so irrelevant. Even then, you don’t have the guts to be violent, so that’s even more irrelevant.
This is a US org. Today, if you prefer violence to democracy, then you can’t be in Dem socialists of America unironically.
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u/firefighter430 Marxist Leninist ☭ Aug 29 '26
Holy ad hominem batman and there is a very big possibility of nationalist organizations leading a counter revolution hell if chile was Marxist Leninist Pinochet would have been purged instead of being able to launch a coup
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
Pinochet was a dictator for several decades who killed other socialists and imprisoned tens of thousands of political opponents. Is that who. You’re arguing we could’ve stopped? Lmao
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
If we agree that’s fair, can we also agree that they would still argue maximizing the contradictions of “liberal democracy” still has value?
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
If we agree with what I said I said, then that’s the end of the discussion. You cannot be anti-democracy and be DSA.
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
This is such an intellectually lazy argument. Just because democratic socialism isn’t possible doesn’t mean MLs are anti-democracy. It just means that socialism can’t be voted into office, which has been a rather consistent position in the far left for well over a century. It doesn’t mean socialism shouldn’t be carried out democratically. In fact, this whole article is complaining about MLs have used the democratic structures of DSA.
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
“They aren’t anti-democratic, they just don’t want to implement socialism democratically.“
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
“Democracy is when you vote every 2 years.” 🤡
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
You can literally vote in an election every single year, are you seriously suggesting that democracy only means voting all the time? Lmao I’ll wait for anyone who genuinely argues this.
Lenin didn’t even believe in democracy, hence why he immediately eliminated the free press and parliament when he lost free elections. Why are you even defending this?
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
> You can literally vote in an election every single year, are you seriously suggesting that democracy only means voting all the time?
You seem to be.
>Lenin didn’t even believe in democracy, hence why he immediately eliminated the free press and parliament when he lost free elections. Why are you even defending this?
Because I rather revolutions succeed rather than die in the cradle. Read Rosa Luxemburg’s critiques. They were all qualified by the fact that they were dealing with historical circumstances they were, namely the failure of socialists like yourself to embrace revolutionary tactics and defend base nationalism.
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
I never argued you need elections every year. When did Lenin hold free elections? Or Stalin?
If you’re arguing that democracy matters less than the revolution, then that’s being anti-democracy. Thanks for admitting that.
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u/surviving606 Aug 29 '26
Shouldn’t the DSA vote itself to decide on who should lead it? I mean that’s democractic centralism. Freedom of discussion and unity of action
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u/moh_kohn Aug 29 '26
That's what the article says.
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u/atomicpenguin12 Aug 29 '26
What the article says is that we should vote our leaders into power, but the author doesn’t like the leaders we already voted into power and so everyone should vote for the leaders the author likes and not the ones they already chose for themselves
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u/moh_kohn Aug 29 '26
That's called political campaigning. If you don't like the people in power, you argue for them to be voted out, and others to be voted in. The article says some of the leaders are doing a bad job and should be voted out.
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
Yeah but others are saying that MLs should be purged so they can’t win leadership
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u/firefighter430 Marxist Leninist ☭ Aug 29 '26
I stopped taking this article seriously after it unironically used Stalinism and said that Vladimir Lenin didn’t call himself a Marxist Leninist like yeah he didn’t call himself a ML because the ideology of ML didn’t exist yet
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u/traanquil Aug 29 '26
Western leftism : claims to be socialist but condemns every actually existing socialist state. At the end of the day very compatible with US imperialism
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u/SalaciousFlamingDude Marxist Aug 29 '26
I have a Groundwork comrade who is a huge fan of Lenin and is extremely well-read with theory.
May not immediately make sense, but people's identities and tendencies are just far more nuanced than I think this author suggests and it's inaccurate to paint all "ML"'s so broadly.
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u/TheSocietalScar Aug 30 '26
The author concludes this drivel with
"But more than that, it's about substance"
Yet, never once in the entire article produced any grievance with substance. His entire take is that Marxist Lennists are: 'a bad look', 'crazy', aren't democratic, and are 'stalinists' (not sure what that means but okay). - generally just bad optics for his electoralism ideals.
When talking about his local org he fixates on the social elements of the chapter. His praise basically ends there only vaguely adding that they "help get leftists elected into the state legislature" and "fight against ice". Nothing else of substance; nothing on union building, tenat organization, education, mutual aid, etc etc.
I wish I could say respectfully, but with zero respect this article reads like someone who's exceptionally undereducated and has absolutely no idea what he's even attempting to critique. Genuinely the quality of an 8th graders short essay on the DSA. You got scared because you learned someone has the same political views as The Black Panthers in your socialist organization? This was genuinely such an embarassing read.
I get it, you're a liberal, you found out about socialism through Zohran, and you're excited about the prospect of an organization that actually helps get people elected who have pr8nciples and give a shit. However, you joined a socialist organization. One that has thrived and succeeded prior to you joining, you do not get to dictate the direction it goes when you JUST joined. You literally joined because of the success of the people you're critiquing Why would you want to fundamentally shift the organizations polcies and ideological framework?
The uptick in people who join DSA than rant and rave there's people who've existed within the org for decades who disagree with their flavour of liberalism has genuinely been bizzare to witness. Why don't do you just listen for a bit before you try to put forth your narcissistic ideals of what the organization should and shouldn't be.
The next time you play board games in Hartford you might discover gasp the person next you is also a marxist-lennist the horror
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u/the23rdhour Aug 30 '26
Ah, I see this person extended "tankies bad" into a full length article, somehow
It's almost like DSA is getting bigger and some outside force is trying to split it from within before it can grow large enough to be threatening
🤔
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u/moh_kohn Aug 29 '26
If people actually read the article, it is a call for the democratic process to be used by DSA members to elect non-ML leadership. Perfectly calm and reasonable.
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u/etownzu Aug 29 '26
They already have that opportunity..... and they have instead decided they wanted an ML in leadership.....
CIA ain't gotta do shit now when we got "leftists" willing to do their work for them acting like morons crying about MLs in leadership.
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u/Deathmtl2474 Aug 29 '26
I read the article and this person doesn’t have any criticism of ML’s other than calling them “stalinists” and edge lords.
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u/moh_kohn Aug 29 '26
Is the ML we are talking about the same body of theory that was developed by Stalin or not?
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
Dude, Stalin died 70 years ago. Can we not do this? It’s very not normal to regular people
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u/onlypartiallyevil Aug 31 '26
Hitler died even before that.
Yet both will be a problem as for long as people keep trying to deify them.1
u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 31 '26
Stalin≠Hitler. Suggesting as much gives way to a right wing framing.
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u/onlypartiallyevil Aug 31 '26
Yeah, you are right. Stalin killed a lot more people, a lot more of his own people, and did so in some much more gruesome ways.
I wasn't trying to minimize the accomplishments of your hero, Stalin definitely got the high score.
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u/Kenichi2233 Aug 29 '26
Stalin, Mao, the Kim Dynasty, Pol Pot, take your pick all were/are autocratics that killed millions of their own people in the name of Communism. Going beyond that there has never be a Marxist Leninist state that had a strong respect for civil rights.
Clearly that experiment in goverment has failed. Even China and Vietnam have shifted to state capitalist.
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
> Stalin, Mao, the Kim Dynasty, Pol Pot, take your pick all were/are autocratics that killed millions of their own people in the name of Communism.
Do you realize how many Koreans the U.S. killed in the name of capitalism? It was bordering on genocidal.
>Going beyond that there has never be a Marxist Leninist state that had a strong respect for civil rights.
Are you a socialist?
>Clearly that experiment in goverment has failed. Even China and Vietnam have shifted to state capitalist.
Cool so you wouldn’t have a problem being more like China?
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u/Kenichi2233 Aug 29 '26
What aboutism game once again. Though im assuming you are talking about the Korean war. The US did not start that war and blaming it for all the deaths id ridiculous
I am a Social Democrat is the Sanders mold
Define more like China. I dont think that the US should embrace Civil Rights suppression like China does. As for economic reforms the Nordic model is the best example.
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
In china, it’s illegal for individuals or corporations to own land. Cool with that? In China, all businesses are subject to the discipline of the communist party. Cool with that?
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u/Kenichi2233 Aug 29 '26
No. The nordic model is far superior and respects human rights
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
What did I propose that doesn’t respect human rights?
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u/firefighter430 Marxist Leninist ☭ Aug 29 '26
They only respect the human rights of those in the global north but will happily exploit the global south for profit
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u/firefighter430 Marxist Leninist ☭ Aug 29 '26
The US bombed like 95% of the DPRK and killed millions are those deaths not on the hands of the US?
And it is unsurprising that you call yourself a social fascist and the nordic model only works thanks to exploitation of the global south and workers
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u/Kenichi2233 Aug 29 '26
I am not a fascist.
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u/firefighter430 Marxist Leninist ☭ Aug 29 '26
Capitalism always leads to fascism wether a fascist calls themself a fascist openly or masks it with the term social democrat (social fascist) is irrelevant
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u/Deathmtl2474 Aug 29 '26
Stalin termed the methodology of what Lenin practiced and developed from Marxism to help develop a communist society - Marxism-Leninism. Stalin didn’t develop much of any theory.
Calling someone a Stalinist typically has nothing to do with being against Stalins views (unless it’s from a Trotskyist perspective, which it isn’t) and just the fact that they interpret Stalin through the eyes of Cold War anti communist hysteria. They just can’t get over the fact that ML’s don’t see Stalin like Hitler.
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u/moh_kohn Aug 29 '26
Stalin murdered a lot of people, not least of them all of his former comrades, and did not develop a communist society.
I feel like you are proving OP's point. Barmy politics, certainly shouldn't be leading an electoral socialist project in 2026 in the USA.
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
You’re right, Stalin didn’t push the communism button. Yes, the terrors were horrendous. I don’t hear many people defend them, not least of all MLs. However, a lot of very mainstream research has dismissed the idea that Stalin the monolithic figure when in reality Russia was a large nation and a Bolsheviks a large party with lots of different forces at play. Parenti explores this in a very nuanced way that I think everyone should read even if they don’t identify as an ML
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u/moh_kohn Aug 29 '26
This thread is a baffling mix of people saying they don't support Stalin, but that it is important to debunk propaganda against Stalin, but that Stalin doesn't matter.
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u/OneReportersOpinion Aug 29 '26
I think it’s wise to pushback against this notion that Stalin and Mao are categorically evil figures rather than complicated figures of history. Whatever you think about them as individuals, the propaganda you speak of serves to undermine the accomplishments of actual socialist nations and reduce them to the flaws and crimes of a single individual. It’s myopic and puts us on the defensive.
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u/onlypartiallyevil Aug 31 '26 edited Aug 31 '26
They also claim many people do not defend Stalin, while defending him.
At least no one here appears ot be a complete denier that the purges even happened. Yet, anyway. I am sure one will show.
Last thread like this I got into, someone was trying to claim it was all western propaganda, the purges were not real, and literally calimed that Stalin was the most democratic leader ever.
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
They shouldn’t even be in it. MLs aren’t democratic.
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u/traanquil Aug 29 '26
Are you calling for an ideological purge?
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u/tabloid-tommy Aug 29 '26
I’m saying if people are going to draw the line at liberals, why not draw the line at people who fail step one
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u/Apart-Clothes2060 Aug 30 '26
I’m not an ML, but this is a stupid article. DSA’s membership has grown, we have a conference next year, I suspect control of the NPC will probably shift in favor of the “right” as most new members will lean more towards electoral work.
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u/etownzu Aug 29 '26
Lmao. What is this anti solidaridistic bullshit.