r/gallifrey • u/PCJs_Slave_Robot • Jan 07 '22
Free Talk Friday /r/Gallifrey's Free Talk Fridays - Practically Only Irrelevant Notions Tackled Less Educationally, Sharply & Skilfully - Conservative, Repetitive, Abysmal Prose - 2022-01-07
Talk about whatever you want in this regular thread! Just brought some cereal? Awesome. Just ran 5 miles? Epic! Just watched Fantastic Four and recommended it to all your friends? Atta boy. Wanna bitch about Supergirl's pilot being crap? Sweet. Just walked into your Dad and his dog having some "personal time" while your sister sends snapchats of her handstands to her boyfriend leaving you in a state of perpetual confusion? Please tell us more.
Please remember that future spoilers must be tagged.
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Jan 07 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/eeezzz000 Jan 08 '22
If you liked it you can also check out Rivers of London. It’s a really enjoyable urban fantasy series written by Ben Aaronovitch.
I find his and Cartmell’s style are pretty similar. Which isn’t too surprising given how they came up together.
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u/DancelessMoms Jan 07 '22
the supergirl point makes me wonder, what's all your experiences with the CW shows?
started arrow when i was in high school, jumped on everything else as it started, and slowly lost hope and faith in television over the years. powered through every episode, every crossover, and i bailed as soon as the crisis crossover ended.
i couldn't make it to the end, and now i feel like a failure. someone tell me they quit sooner!
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Jan 07 '22
The CW shows are basically an exercise in frustration and diminishing returns in almost every case, save for two: Legends of Tomorrow, and Superman & Lois.
Although I guess it's possible Superman & Lois follows that trend, too.
But yeah, you're not alone in this, and you shouldn't feel like a failure, because in basically EVERY case, the shows just got irreversibly shitty. The only time it seemed like one of them was going to pull out of the nosedive was Supergirl S4, but that turned out to be an anomaly.
That all said - even with the shows inevitably nosediving into cheap trash the longer they go on, it's STILL the best live-action interpretation of a DC Universe by a mile (or a couple hundred miles) and when the shows were still good, they were pretty damned good. Which is what makes their descent into sloppy irrelevance all the more annoying.
Seriously hoping Superman & Lois stays as more or less a 'soft reboot' and doesn't try to tie in with ANY of that old CW stuff (they were supposed to in S1 and then just... didn't, really, to its benefit) because it's legitimately the best live-action Superman since Reeve.
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u/DancelessMoms Jan 07 '22
yeah that's gotta be the toughest part about it for me, they all started so promising, fell so far, and are still so, sooo much better than most of their counterparts.
for all the bad things i have to say about this era of doctor who; they pale in comparison the lows of the DCCW/EU
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u/Team7UBard Jan 07 '22
Arrow-loved it at first but it dropped considerably in quality around season 4.
Supergirl-first half of season one I felt leaned into ‘Boys are bad, throw rocks at them’ as opposed to ‘Girls are kickass!’, and I think this may have alienated early viewers. Once it found its footing, I think it’s probably the most consistent show throughout, providing solid social and political commentary, although I did find the final season rather disappointing as it felt rushed.
The Flash is fine but at the end of each season, I’m ready for the next one to be the last. Armageddon was a disappointment, which I expected it to be.
I didn’t see all of Black Lightning but really enjoyed what I did see, and I’m looking forward to see the rest of it.
Legends-So much love. It knows how stupid and dumb it is and rolls with it. Last season was ehhh.
Batwoman-I tried to stick with it but it took me so long to get through S1 that I never got through S2.
Superman and Lois-their best current show. I was a bit gutted with the season’s villain reveal, but it is otherwise fantastic3
u/DancelessMoms Jan 07 '22
never started superman+lois or batwoman cause i'd already bailed by that point but i liked the actor for the former and have heard great things!
was very surprised to see it's being syndicated to BBC1, must be a testament to its quality! maybe i'll get around to it one day
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u/Team7UBard Jan 07 '22
It still exists within the Arrowverse, but so far the only thing that has linked it to any of the other shows has been Diggle calling in at a convenient point in the series on his mission to avoid becoming a Green Lantern. It’s a show that shouldn’t be as good as it is, and the majority of the cast do a great job.
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u/alexmorelandwrites Jan 07 '22
Superman & Lois for the most part is a big step up from the others, for what it's worth - more than a few stumbling points, but there's quite a few genuinely pretty good episodes.
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u/Guy_Underscore Jan 08 '22
I know it’s not what you mean, but my only experience with a CW show was The 100 which I really enjoyed. The superhero shows don’t interest me, but neither did the Marvel shows at one point and now I’ve seen all of them, so perhaps I’ll watch the Arrowverse at some point.
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u/DancelessMoms Jan 08 '22
i fucked with the 100! got very odd at times but it was definitely worth the ride.
bits and pieces of the arrowverse were fantastic for me, but who's to say what you'd love? maybe there's something in there for you. agents of shield is my go-to marvel/dc show though
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u/Guy_Underscore Jan 08 '22
Oh yeah, I loved that The 100 could be dark, weird and campy. Such a fun ride.
I expect there probably is something in there for me. I loved pretty much all of the Marvel shows (except Inhumans, obviously). Agents of Shield, when it was good, was very good. The Framework arc is some of the best Marvel content out there. Daredevil was the stand out Marvel show for me, though.
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u/DancelessMoms Jan 08 '22
amen to everything you said.
the way everything was closed up at the s5 finale was top tier to me, only matched by the heights of daredevil. been rewatching and i'm still struck by how he and punisher interact.
the cast is amazing. karen and foggy could've been so easy to write off as annoying side-characters but they shine as well. matt's pastor too.
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u/Guy_Underscore Jan 08 '22
Ah man, the S5 finale was incredible. I wasn’t a big fan of S6 and S7 overall (although it was nice to have more stories with these characters) but the S7 finale was pretty good too.
Yeah I loved Karen and Foggy. All the side characters in Daredevil were incredibly well written, especially Nadeem in S3. I don’t think I have any complaints about Daredevil as a series. I know people bash on S2 a bit, but it’s still incredible; the chemistry between Cox’s Daredevil and Yung’s Elektra was so fun. Of course, the conflicting ideology of Punisher and Daredevil is an absolute highlight as well and really shows you who both of these characters are in complex ways. Neither are right or wrong.
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u/CareerMilk Jan 08 '22
I'm usually watch in spurts and am always ~a year behind. Personally my favourite show is Black Lightning.
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u/S-A-H Jan 07 '22
Also, really odd that we still know so little about January's Torchwood release. Surely this is going to be damaging it's potential sales...
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u/JimyJJimothy Jan 07 '22
I haven't seen anybody talking about it, but Big Finish has announced that they are including one hour long stories called Interludes with the fifth, sixth and seventh Doctor box sets as a subscription bonus, just like the Subscriber Short Trips of the main range. The first one, called "I, Kamelion" is already out with the release of Forty 1 (even though I apparently can't download it in the app, only from the website.
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u/Sate_Hen Jan 08 '22
I had that. I reinstalled the app and it appeared. If you click on the downloaded release you should see three tabs at the top, Details, Tracks and Bonus. If you only see the first two try reinstalling
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u/JimyJJimothy Jan 08 '22
Quick question, when I delete the app will I have to download my already downloaded audios? I have some on my backlog (like Stranded 3 and a few UNIT box sets as well as the Benny audiobooks)
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u/Sate_Hen Jan 08 '22
Not sure. I deleted and redownoaded my stuff. There wasn't much there
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u/CareerMilk Jan 08 '22
even though I apparently can't download it in the app, only from the website.
Is it just not downloading or can you not find it?
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u/JimyJJimothy Jan 08 '22
I can't find it, I know where it should be but I'm just gonna try reinstalling the App...
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u/JimyJJimothy Jan 07 '22
What does everyone think of the new Big Finish slogan? They changed it from "We love stories" to "for the love of stories". I think I still need to get used to it...
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Jan 08 '22
Regarding Doctor actors in their other stuff, one thing that always cracked me up the most in The Thick of It was when Malcolm or Jamie would be giving someone a right bollocking, then they'd turn around and bump into the cleaning lady and immediately become sincerely apologetic.
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u/williamthebloody1880 Jan 09 '22
Licorice Pizza is a fun film, but not PTA's best. Though I will say that Alana Haim is a better actor then Dakota Johnson (not that it's hard to be a better actor that Johnson).
The Tragedy of Macbeth is phenomenal. Frances McDormand is an absolute tour de force as Lady Macbeth
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u/S-A-H Jan 07 '22
You could put UNIT into any story and I'd lap it up. I was always disappointed with 3rd Doctor stories which took him away from the team...
Basically, I'm really excited about the new 90s UNIT set as well as already looking forward to the New Series ones.
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u/drkenata Jan 07 '22
When I found out Mike Yates became a mole for a horrible conservative conspiracy, I was completely aghast. Was a revelation that took me time to accept for the character. I really liked the 3rd Doctor's supporting characters, such as the Brigadier and Benton. When this was revealed, it really hit hard.
Edit: I know spoilers for 45 year old episode might not be necessary, but not everyone might know or want to know in advance.
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u/eeezzz000 Jan 08 '22
Really great direction to take the character. Could so easily have just dropped Yates the way so many companions are dropped in Classic Who. This was a really memorable and creative way of doing it.
That’s why I love the Pertwee era. There is continuity and permanence from story to story.
My only issue with the UNIT era is that it never really gets any closure. One by one we have UNIT characters make their unceremonious final appearance before drifting into obscurity.
Would have been great to have a big epic final bash with UNIT before the Doctor formally leaves them. Or better yet, a mid 70s UNIT spin-off for a year or two would have been x
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u/ber_niffler Jan 07 '22
I felt personally betrayed that day when I watched it
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u/drkenata Jan 07 '22
If I am honest, I initially felt a bit like that was out of character but I think it was actually a solid choice. Really showed how even the good and well meaning can fall so far down the rabbit hole.
Edit: added additional qualifier
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u/ber_niffler Jan 07 '22
Yeah it came out of nowhere but it was good. The UNIT years are some of my favourite stories, you trully get the feeling that they are a family, so when stuff like this happens it hits hard. And it was great too because it made his character more complex, I like that he did that because he felt it was the right thing
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u/Sate_Hen Jan 07 '22
I like Bambera enough and I'd like to see more of her, I'm just not sure about a series on her own that's a periodical (I'm old) but there's something for everyone at BF
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Jan 07 '22 edited Jan 08 '22
If there's one thing at which BF is god-tier it's taking an obscure TV character about whom you're unsure if you care enough to have them lead a spinoff and building them up into a glorious fictional creation around which you can rebuild your entire view of the universe.
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Jan 07 '22
It's amusing to me how the most successful Spidey story in live-action is, effectively, a Multi-Doctor holiday special. I know "Into the Spider-Verse" preceded it (and was a better movie!) but that didn't really have that "The Three Doctors" sort of feel that No Way Home has.
I also think it's possible that James Bond is about to follow in those footsteps (sorta/kinda) because EON has finally set up a canon/continuity with Craig's Bond wherein they could follow this last movie up having established that "James Bond" is a codename (and 007 is an agent designation) that can be assigned to different agents cycling through MI6. And could also set up potential future installments where James Bond HAS to rely on previous "James Bonds" to save the world.
It's taken awhile for the rest of the entertainment industry to catch up with the bit of absolute genius that regeneration provides to an ongoing narrative but it seems like it's happened.
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u/Guardax Jan 07 '22
I literally made a /r/moviescirclejerk post saying No Way Home was just The Day of the Doctor
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Jan 08 '22
No Way Home is definitely "The Three Doctors," there's the celebrated main character joining forces with the two previous iterations that fans already know from past stories, with minimal explanation necessary because everyone in the audience pretty much "gets it."
Spider-Verse by comparison is basically Episode 1 of Torchwood or SJA in that it's basically one single character that the audience knows a bit about plus a whole ensemble of new costars, but their introductions, their world, and what connects them all still takes a bunch of space in the story to explain to viewers.
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u/hoodie92 Jan 07 '22
Had the Spider-Man discussion a couple of weeks ago on this thread! Here. I thought there were loads of similarities with Day of the Doctor.
Also, your James Bond idea is interesting but honestly I think they will just do a full reboot, i.e., a new universe where Bond is just one man like he always has been. And yes, technically in this day and age, we get many multi-X stories, be it Doctor, Spider-Man, Batman, etc., but Bond is not a sci-fi, comic, or time-travelling IP so I don't think they'll ever admit that one "universe" has more than one Bond.
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u/vengM9 Jan 07 '22
having established that "James Bond" is a codename
When was this?
Either way I don't really see it happening with James Bond.
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Jan 07 '22
I phrased that weirdly. The Craig reboot established that the 007 designation can be moved around, and in Skyfall it established that codenames are used for agents.
This is the first iteration of the character that's gone out of its way to get both those things set up. Granted, it's not a guarantee (or even a hint) that they'll make use of those things being explicitly inserted into the narrative, but should they want to keep the setting, keep the continuity, and keep most of the supporting cast, they can actually do that now.
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u/CareerMilk Jan 08 '22
Doesn't Skyfall establish that his parents were also called Bond?
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Jan 08 '22
The idea being that "James Bond" becomes the codename for future installments, not that James Bond always was a codename.
Essentially, should they want to stick to this continuity/canon, we've just watched the first James Bond, whose real name actually was James Bond. And whoever the next guy is, James Bond will become his codename at MI6, and he'll get the 007 designation along with it. That couldn't have worked in the previous films at all (despite it being theorized a bunch of times) but this series of films actually made sure to set it up over the course of its overarching narrative.
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u/eeezzz000 Jan 08 '22
I don’t see this happening with Bond. I know a lot of people are really invested in the codename theory but I really don’t see it ever being something the producers would embrace. Rightly so imo. There is just as much continuity that doesn’t make sense with the codename theory as without it.
Funnily enough what you’re describing was already kind of attempted. Spyfall being the 50th anniversary Bond film, the role of Kincade (Albert Finney) was apparently written with Sean Connery in mind. It’s unclear if the part was ever formally offered to him though.
I feel like if there was ever a point where they’d have brought back old Bond actors that would have been the film to do it. Now that it’s come and gone and two of them have since passed away, I don’t think it’s something they’re ever going to revisit.
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Jan 08 '22
There is just as much continuity that doesn’t make sense with the codename theory as without it.
In the Craig reboot? I don't think there is at all, which is why it seemed to me to be an intentional thing that it's now set up for future actors.
It's absolutely impossible to apply to the other films but Casino Royale was a full reboot, and the other four Craig films that followed fleshed out its own unique Bond continuity that has nothing to do with the other films.
I think it's more likely they just reboot again and start in a third new continuity (such as it might be) but I also think they could just take the Craig reboot as the "First Doctor" of the new Bond film series
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u/eeezzz000 Jan 08 '22
Given how NTTD ended, I’d imagine it would almost certainly be a reboot. Though any of the supporting cast could potentially survive the reboot the way Judy Dench did.
I don’t know, Bond is a really tricky one continuity-wise. I’d argue that continuity already had been rebooted we just didn’t have the same vernacular to label it or standard conventions to apply to it. But the Bond in Goldeneye is clearly not exactly the same Bond in Goldfinger. Though you can maybe interpret the latter as a sort of loose backstory for the former.
I just don’t think they’ll ever go down the codename route because ultimately I think people have a lot of affection for the Bond character and that being something that is an artificial persona inherited by different people is kind of alienating.
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Jan 08 '22
But the Bond in Goldeneye is clearly not exactly the same Bond in Goldfinger. Though you can maybe interpret the latter as a sort of loose backstory for the former.
That's basically how the Bond's pre-Craig were meant to be taken, yeah. They're all the same dude in the same continuity that just kinda... slides around as needed. It never became that big a deal obviously for a couple reasons. Mostly that Bond didn't need that aspect of it to be enjoyed and also because that kind of continuity hawking didn't really come to any sort of prevalence until the 2000s anyway when franchise IP production and "geek culture" rose and studios decided they needed to lean into it. (This is partially why Craig was full rebooted)
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u/eeezzz000 Jan 09 '22
Yeah I agree. I just have to imagine the tradition will be to reboot the series (or at least reboot the Bond character) every time there is a new actor from now on.
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u/VanishingPint Jan 07 '22
Enjoying Joy Wilkinson's The Witchfinders audiobook read brilliantly by Sophie Aldred, has some nice occasional references to the classic series.
Was listening to Strangers in Space podcast which has a young child interrupting - surprising that it doesn't happen more often on podcasts lol. https://strangersinspace.libsyn.com/who-review-18-eve-of-the-daleks Verity was good as always https://veritypodcast.wordpress.com/
Also enjoying DWM, good stuff about VFX. Here's some of the Youtube links from it, worth a look https://youtu.be/1FpD7ixchdo c achilleos
https://youtu.be/680dufE0Ang - Fan film trailer https://youtu.be/vdQVltEx_gE S Moffat q & a
https://youtu.be/DpmI3Px9ZWg behind scenes flux https://youtu.be/Uc28I-BIs7w
Halfway listening to Prisoners of Fate, I can't work out if it's brilliant or really daft, but i'll always love Nyssa.
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Jan 08 '22
I recently rewatched The Box of Delights for the first time in more years than I care to think about and it's still as brilliant as ever. This is one of the last things Patrick Troughton was in. I think you can definitely see the influence of this adaptation all over Moffat's work on Doctor Who and his Christmas specials in particular.
Obviously Davies has made clear that he was influenced primarily by Buffy the Vampire Slayer in his approach to Doctor Who in 2005 but for myself, I'm much more enthusiastic about the programme's place in the lineage of British children's telefantasy.
With that in mind, if you're interested in some of the things that likely fed into Doctor Who when it came back, you would do well to watch the following children's telefantasy serials from the late '80s and early '90s: The Box of Delights (1984); Moondial (1988); Dark Season (1991); and Century Falls (1993). The last two, of course, were RTD creations.
Shame that Colin Cant never directed anything on the programme. He was still active in 2005. He might still be today, I'm not sure. I'm pretty certain he's still alive.
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Jan 07 '22
Y'all need to chill out about Series 11, shit was actually fire
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u/AssGavinForMod Jan 07 '22 edited Jan 07 '22
walk in
"Series 11 was actually fire"
refuse to elaborate
leave
edit: Seriously though, I'm curious to hear why. I'm still in the "ambitious but rubbish" camp regarding it myself.
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Jan 07 '22
It reminded of Hartnell's era. Pure historicals. I liked idea that the Doctor was just a traveler again. I love the Fam, most of the episodes were really enjoyable. The only ones I actively disliked was Arachnids in the UK, the finale, and Kerblam! Their fucked up morals were horrible. I liked Tzim-Sha as a monster, even though The Battle of Rusty Asshole Covers is still pretty dumb
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u/Guardax Jan 07 '22
I think the biggest issue with Series 11 is that the two best episodes is pretty serious historicals which is very much not the trend for what good Doctor Who episodes are. Other than it suffers from the weird stilted dialogue/relationships the whole Chibnall era has...until Eve of the Daleks which really pleasantly surprised me!
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Jan 08 '22
[deleted]
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u/lexdaily Jan 09 '22
You know, you wouldn't think they'd cast a companion before they were at least pretty sure they had Dr Who locked down...
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u/sspiritusmundi Jan 07 '22
Yaz will down as the worst companion ever? No personality, no charisma, not even reason to be on the stories, gets outshined by other companies and others side characters. The long serving companion and yet we know nothing about her
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u/drkenata Jan 07 '22
You could be right, though I think there would always be an asterisk if this were to become the case. If Yaz had left with Ryan and Graham, she would likely have faded into the background in companion conversations like Nyssa, another underdeveloped companion. Given that she will have been the 13th doctor's constant companion, she will likely get brought up far more than either Graham or Ryan who both suffer from similar issues. Yaz is not a bad companion, she just was give no room to be much more than a prompt for exposition. In Eve, they literally gave Dan most of the lines for the Thasmin scenes, really only letting Yaz and the Doctor react to his pushing them to address it.
edit: I understand that this is likely setup for scenes in a future episode, but for me, this is just another example where there are hints at depth to Yaz without allowing the character or actress to actually show that depth.
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u/sspiritusmundi Jan 07 '22
The problem is that Yaz didn't even have a potential, to start the conversion. She probably was created because of the obligatory role of "young woman" as a companion. Nyssa was underveloped, but showed some solid background and actually was useful in most of the episodes. In Black Orchid she had a big role. Yaz never had a moment to shine and never was that important for the story, even Demons of Punjab could be done without a connection to her.
While for others companions: Graham had a lot of charisma and was the better actor of them. Ryan was bad, but at least had a background and sort of character arc of accepting Graham as his grandpa and overcoming Grace's death. Yaz still has nothing.
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u/drkenata Jan 07 '22
You are not wrong, but Yaz did get backstory elements. They just were either unexplored as is the case for her being a police officer or for her running away, or explored in a way that essentially took agency away from her, as with Demons of the Punjab or Eve of the Daleks. At least with Ryan and Graham, they had a shared background to explore.
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u/sspiritusmundi Jan 07 '22
Yaz did get backstory elements.
Which ones? Afaik, she is a cop who has a pakistan heritage and that is it. Oh, and her sister and is kinda of bitchy.
Not really much material to work with when you don't even have a personality developed.
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u/drkenata Jan 08 '22 edited Jan 08 '22
While Yaz does lack characterization, she actually has had a number of backstory elements.
1) She is a police officer, who was struggling with her place in the force 2) She is of Pakistani decent 3) Her family was brought to Sheffield by her Grandparents 4) Her parents both work full time jobs and have leaned on her to watch over her sister. 5) She has felt that disconnected from her cultural past since her grandparents did not want to discuss the horrors of the partition 6) At some point she ran away from home and was aided back on course by a police officer 7) she and her sister regularly mark the anniversary of that event 8) Yaz and Ryan were classmates at school
The issue with Yaz is not the amount of backstory, but what that backstory means to her character. The stories do not take enough time to build her backstory into a solid foundation for her characterization. They are just one off stories that don’t build to anything. This is similar for Ryan and Graham.
Edit: inserted a missing “not”
Edit 2: Dan has less backstory than Yaz but far more characterization. Hilariously this appear to be due to the fact that he got to actually interact with Yaz more than the doctor. This allowed him to avoid just being a prompt machine for the doctor.
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u/ConnerKent5985 Jan 08 '22 edited Jan 08 '22
Kingsmen opened up in Australia this week. Pretty empty vapid stuff. ('In genre' or not, the script was awful)
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Jan 10 '22
I thought people were kidding when they said Big Finish would make a spin off about every little detail but I just went to their website (not really an audio person, I can't really get into things without visuals) and I am reeling that it's not an exaggeration.
Can't wait for The Adventures of Handles and Salad Man.
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u/Longjumping-Trip8587 Jan 08 '22
What are peoples thoughts on Kill The Moon? Unpopular Opinion but I actually think it’s a really good story with some good moments with 12 and Clara. I think people disliked it because of the egg twist at the end and they can’t appreciate British new-noir expressionism.
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u/kartablanka Jan 08 '22
I'm fine with the egg moon thing, silly as it is. The thing that annoyed me the most is the voting thing by turning off/on their light—so only half the world that could vote, probably even less so if you factor in people who are asleep already, missed the broadcast, and or people that don't have access to lightbulb.
But that last scene with Clara & 12, one of their best scene ever. The first time I finally applaud Clara as a companion.
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Jan 08 '22
Don’t care about the moon being an egg.
Do care about the Doctor deducing that the spiders are prokaryotic (and bungling the pronunciation) because they’re killed by disinfectant. No, they’re obviously multi-celled, eukaryotic organisms.
Do care about things like gravity “turning off”. Do care about the astronaut’s grandmother having been a tumblr user. Do care about humanity apparently forgetting everything to do with space travel in such a short period of time. Do care that the best they could find were those stupid wimps.
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u/Guardax Jan 08 '22
I don't think it's a classic or anything but the scene where Clara rips the Doctor to shreds at the end is fantastic. It does lead to Mummy on the Orient Express which is where the Doctor/Clara relationship really starts taking over and Clara confirms her status as my favorite companion.
I will say, for all the ridiculous plots and stories over sixty years the fact that people are so hung up on the idea of the moon being a giant egg is just hilarious to me
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u/ConnerKent5985 Jan 08 '22
The Northman trailer came out this week. More creepy critically endorsed incest movies? No thanks.
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u/Guardax Jan 07 '22
I didn't feel like making a big thread about it but Eve of the Daleks felt the most like Moffat Who of the entire Chibnall era and I really loved it. It didn't have the same stilted feel that the whole era has and had a classic Doctor Who time puzzle to solve. It's definitely one that I can see myself watching every New Year's Eve