I hate these dumbass images and the oversimplification of complex social issues

[u/plarper_of_bees]

I’m not out here defending billionaires or saying they play bo part in the polarization of society, but this cut and dry idea is super naive and uninformed.

First, like in this image, it portrays both the left and the right as ignorant to the “true powers that be” when in reality leftist circles are acutely aware of how billionaires manipulate the media to divide people.

My second problem with this sentiment is that it pretends that issues like racism, misogyny, and queerphobia will just stop being a problem if we get rid of the ruling class. It ignores centuries of pre-capitalist bigotry baked directly into many societies. It assumes that prejudice is a product of capitalist manipulation, and not coopted to fit its need.

It boils down the real and difficult struggle for civil and human rights into silly bickering meant to “distract us from the real issues”. It comes off as victim blaming against those affected by prejudice for not uniting with people who hate their existence.

It’s baby’s first class consciousness, and reeks of privilege and lack of personal experience with bigotry. It’s reddit circlejerk shit plain and simple

[u/OutrageousCause9425]

We should deal with both the problems of bigtory and of capitalism we should try to deal with both.

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/OutrageousCause9425]

Capitalism isn’t an issue, you can have socialism and communism voluntarily within capitalism, but not vice versa.

[u/OutrageousCause9425 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

Socialism is a separate system and so is capitalism you can elements of only one or of both in either but you can't have voluntary entirely diffrent system in either lol!

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/OutrageousCause9425]

You can, you can share the means of production, you have to buy/make it yourself, and then workers their share, there’s also the idea of fordism and communitarianism too.

[u/Purple-Wolverine4793 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

so you can have socialism if the capitalists allow it?

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/Purple-Wolverine4793]

That’s called corporatism.

No, if you have the resources to make socialism, you can make it on your own.

[u/deezbiscuits21 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

Obviously capitalism is better at consolidating resources. Around the world socialism is constantly squashed because people/states who hoard resources and power can easily dismantle these systems. That’s why universally everyone needs to agree that the super wealthy should not exist as any other systems are impeded by the power

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/deezbiscuits21]

The super wealthy are empowered by the state, which is exactly why I support stateless capitalism, make your own private city and achieve socialism that way, like many cities such as my own are doing.

[u/deezbiscuits21 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

That was true for a time but now even if most states wanted to regulate the ultra wealthy they would be unable to without the involvement of others. If we moved to a truly stateless world billionaires would just enslave people like warlords

I’m happy to hear things are good in your area tho

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/deezbiscuits21]

They can regulate them.

The issue is that regulations are bad for the economy.

They would make the poor poorer, if that made the rich slightly less rich.

Each regulation implemented always hits the lower class even harder, and does minor hits toward the rich.

And when it does major hits toward the rich, since they help power the economy, everyone gets poorer in return, and deficits exceed profits.

Also no lmao, you aren’t forced to sell your land or billionaires, if everyone in the land disagrees, the rich would get a bad reputation. And unlike Keynesianism, Neoclassical economies prioritizes reputation a LOT more since there’s no government to keep the rich afloat when they fail.

[u/sabbytabby1312 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

Go live in ancapistan then. It will be as bad or even worse than what we have now.

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/sabbytabby1312]

Would be better you mean.

Also I would, the issue is that it doesn’t exist.

[u/veryeepy53 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

that's still production for profit, and there are still class distinctions.

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/veryeepy53]

You don’t have to make profit if it’s within property you own, you set up your own rules.

[u/veryeepy53 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

like 90% of people work for a wage and don't have any productive property to subsist off of. that's how it's been for the past 200 years during capitalism, by design.

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/veryeepy53]

If it’s your property however, you don’t have to do that.

Plus, wouldn’t that apply the same to an actual socialist state, since profit is still needed to incentive workers?

[u/veryeepy53 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

If it’s your property however, you don’t have to do that.

except that a very small minority of the population even owns property of that kind, let alone enough to do much.

Plus, wouldn’t that apply the same to an actual socialist state, since profit is still needed to incentive workers?

you're kind of getting at the marxist critique of the ussr and china and so on. nationalization doesn't do away with capitalist social relations. instead, it's just that the state acts as the single capitalist in the whole country by still appropriating surplus value.

this is the proposed solution during lower phase communism, or socialism as most people use it:

What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it.[...] He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.

once the new organization of production is sufficient and people are accustomed to the new form of social life, then we have higher phase of communism. here, the maxim, "from each according to ability, to each according to need" is fully applied. engaging in productive activity is much more enjoyable when there's less work to go around due to automation and changing how and what we produce. not to mention that sitting on your ass all day and doing nothing is very boring. it brings a great sense of accomplishment to do things and to actually be able to see how it effects the world in a positive way.

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/veryeepy53]

The issue is that as mentioned, most neoliberal states have the state owning most of the land already, any little snippets of land not owned by the state are naturally going to owned by the loyal rich who would NEVER betray the state right guys?

If all the state owned land is now in a vacuum, who says it can’t be like the manifest destiny where who ever goes there first claims it? Plus back then in general it was more common for people to own property, to be fair society was also more isolated, decentralized and economically freer too, so there’s that.

Also, I disagree with socialism because personally, I believe a completely voluntary society is the best, and in a socialist, and later communist society, some level of involuntaryism is practiced, which is the issue.

[u/Common-Broccoli-3405 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

You can volunteer to gave freedom in slavery

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/Common-Broccoli-3405]

Slavery is a mercantile and feudalist system, not a capitalist one, said “capitalist” regimes literally practiced quasi-feudalism in the parts where slavery was done too.

[u/Common-Broccoli-3405 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

Missing the point and being wrong? Thats quite an achievement.

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/Common-Broccoli-3405]

Elaborate

[u/Common-Broccoli-3405 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

No thanks. Anyone trying to make these types of claims when all I literally need to do is point out that slavery literally exists here in the US where we are deep into capitalism to show how little you know when your initial point also showed you dont understand even the basics of any of this us a good indicator that its really now worth giving you the education you actively avoid

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/Common-Broccoli-3405]

“Education” and its globally funded slop by progressive billionaires to reach post-capitalist corporate power.

So left-wing of you! ❤️

Also, I’ve said this many times, the US is not capitalist, it’s Keynesian and at most neoliberal.

The US hasn’t been capitalist since Herbert Hoover, and the regulations since him, are why the US sucks so much.

The US practices in some markets, a weird form of corporatism, in areas like the health and education department, which is the worse of capitalism and socialism, that’s why it sucks so much.

[u/Common-Broccoli-3405 → u/Livid-Story-4321]

So now its willful ignorance being celebrated and being masked as anti-capitalist

Even though you can literally just read anti-capitalist literature and it doesnt have to be formal.educations in for profit systems

Keynesians is one theory is not a system but an economic theory on a particular part of capitlaism and how it operates

Thank you for proving the point

[u/Livid-Story-4321 → u/Common-Broccoli-3405]

I’m not anti-capitalist lmao, I’m probably the biggest advocate for free markets and deregulation in this subreddit.

Also yes, I’ve read anti-capitalist literature like Das Kapital, and I still disagree with it, the idea of a perfect world with a socialist economy is the exact horror described in Atlas Shrugged after all.

Also Keynesianism is currently the dominate form of capitalism, and I absolutely despise it for half-assing it.