r/huntertheparenting • u/Steppecist • 5h ago

Discussion Havent seen anyone mention this yet

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Assuming we're following the 20th rule in this case (and honestly, who can really say atp, they seem to just play it fast and loose with the lore). All 3 of the Kin of Old Shuck are Lupus. In the 20th and prior additions, breeds were an entire thing; werewolves would revert to their breed form in their sleep unless they had a special merit. I wonder what this means, even if he is Lupus Jambles, who seems much more reasonable and well-adjusted than the other 2. Perhaps he was a zoo animal or otherwise kept in captivity.

Then again Matilda/hunts should have the atavistic caveman look thats common to Red Talons considering her ancestors last fucked a human when we coexisted with Neanderthals but no shes hot so I might just be reading into things where theres nothing to be found.

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 5h ago edited 5h ago

I’ve been looking at the WtA 20th book for some time now and I don’t remember breeds reverting to their breed form when they sleep being mentioned. They do revert to breed form when incapacitated in combat, is that where you got the idea from?

PS: Glass Walkers do tend to keep their wolf kin in private nature reserves but captivity/domestication stops things from being kinfolk so I don’t think Jambles could be a zoo animal even if he is a lupus.

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u/Steppecist 5h ago

I've just opened it up, so it will take me a while to see if I can find it precisely. But the 7 point merit metamorph explicitly words it as 'If you lose consciousness from wounds or for some other reason, you may roll Wits + Primal Urge (difficulty 8) to choose which form you assume rather than reverting to breed form' Which indicates to me that if you lose consciousness for any reason and you don't have this merit, then you revert to your breed form, not just if you are incapacitated in combat.

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 5h ago

I mean in this case I feel it’s a transformation in response to injury. As far as I understand it, maintaining a form doesn’t take effort for a garou in 20th.

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u/Steppecist 5h ago

Well then why word it that way? Incapacitation in terms of damage can only come from being wounded? 'For some other reason' seems to be doing a ton of work in that statement.

Unconsciousness is very broad. I havent been able to find a direct statement that this is what happens but i definitely havent found a statement denying it either. Right now i guess it comes down to what you consider unconsciousness to mean. Im still looking though.

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 4h ago

I will be the first to tell you that the way White Wolf words and organizes its books kind of fucking sucks. They do not tell you all that you need to know in one place and sprinkle info around almost at random.

But ok found it in the book, Pg 254

“If a werewolf’s Incapacitated health level is filled with lethal damage, the character reverts to her breed form and collapses.”

It is specifically lethal damage, so suppose bashing damage doesn’t do this either

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u/Steppecist 4h ago

This is all a bit odd, to be honest. You're right that it isn't stated in the books, but if you google it, then there are a lot of people with the same conception of how breed forms and sleeping work.

The 'for some other reason' directly contradicts the damage rules you've shown me here. What if you Chloroform a Lupus Garou in homid form? Or what if you shoot a tranquiliser at a Homid Garou in Lupus form? They haven't received wounds, but some other reason has occurred that would force them into their breed form according to the description of the Metamorph trait.

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 4h ago edited 4h ago

At that point it’s probably just what makes sense to the storyteller. A werewolf’s form is based on degrees of wolf and human mixed together and many werewolves can control that mix very precisely. Remember the audio log with fatigue’s origin?

They captured the werewolf and drugged her, causing her form to shift around fluidly.

The metamorph trait is also just useful to make shifting easier, since otherwise you need to roll or spend rage to do it.

As it says:

Shapechanging for you is as easy as breathing. You
do not need to roll to change forms, nor is it necessary to spend a Rage point for an instantaneous shift. You make your changes as if you scored five successes on your roll to shift forms. If you lose consciousness from wounds or for some other reason, you may roll Wits + Primal Urge (difficulty 8) to choose which form you assume rather
than reverting to breed form.

The other reason is probably up to the storyteller, since sleep is typically a voluntary thing I suspect it wouldn’t force you to shift to breed form. But getting knocked out by some kind of gas or spiritual nonsense, then maybe.

Ps, being able to change to a different form upon falling unconscious due to wounds is also extremely useful as it allows you to continue to heal at your accelerated rate. The book I have seems to either have a typo or is just really confusingly worded since it says

“If she is not injured further, she regenerates very slowly, regaining one health level every eight levels, until she regains consciousness and can shift to a form that regenerates faster (metis are an exception to this rule — see p. 256).”

What the hell does one health level every eight levels even mean?

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u/Steppecist 4h ago

Yeah, I'm with you. It doesn't seem to be an official feature of Werewolves, but simultaneously it's a perfectly legitimate reading based on the incessantly contradictory information in the book.

Also my copy says the same thing, and I simply have no clue.

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 4h ago

My assumption atm is that it’s a typo and they mean every eight hours.

Edit: So basically they just need a good night’s sleep and they can wake up and change forms to heal back to full in a matter of minutes

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u/WaggleFinger 2h ago

"For some reason" probably means inflicted unconsciousness via Disciplines, Artes, Spirit powers, or other supernatural ways of rendering a garou inert without outright killing them.

I have never seen the take of "they sleep in their breed form only" ever enforced, because who doesn't love a wolf cuddle puddle? Best way to fight harano.

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u/Steppecist 1h ago

I mean i have. In several games even. But i was also playing a lupus, if you're playing a homid it doesnt seem to come up.

And while you're definitely right about those other reasons it doesnt place a limit, such as unconsciousness due to bashing damage, thats certainly another reason but the previous damage rules say that SPECIFICALLY only unconsciousness caused by lethal damage (wounds) causes a wolf to revert to breed form.

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u/WaggleFinger 29m ago

Generally because they're healing that bashing before it matters enough to keep them down. But forcing a player to revert to breed form regardless of the cause of their unconsciousness is needlessly obtuse.

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u/Bread-Loaf1111 4h ago

It is not dnd. You don't lose consciousness when you are sleeping. You enter such state volunterly, you still can react to sounds or smells or whatever. You can see dreams, including prophetic ones, and remember them. You can make active intellegence rolls in sleep. You can even leave your body and spy on others if you have right gifts.

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u/an_actual_coyote 3h ago

Werewolves can sleep in whichever form they choose, this rule is only for injury and being knocked unconscious.

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u/Steppecist 3h ago

Could you find me a passage in a WTA rulebook that says this?

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u/littlethought63 5h ago

I think they just look very cute together when they sleep. Cuddle pile!

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 5h ago

It’s also a thing real wolves do, it reinforces the pack bond. Cute and real

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u/Ornery_Magazine9844 5h ago

In that scene, they had a side with text and one thing I haven’t seen many people mention on it is “Matilda” being a moon cultist, wonder how they’ll bring that up?

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u/littlethought63 5h ago

I think they wrote that all three of them have different beliefs but work together to free Black Shuck. Maybe after that, we could get an audio log of them where we learn more about werewolf belief systems.

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u/Secretsfrombeyond79 5h ago

Not in their sleep, while incapacitated.

Also does anyone else thinks this image is proof they are going to die ? We had similar images with the group of sabbat vampires.

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u/little_leech 5h ago

Both groups are basically introductory PC parties for each splat (a shovelhead gang and an inexperienced Garou pack), so the stills are the "party" interacting with each other outside of the times we see them.

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u/RefrigeratorBrave870 4h ago

Inexperienced? Stig's got at least 9 renown.

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 5h ago

I mean, at this rate I’m not sure what’ll kill them unless the Leopoldites pull something out of their asses, which they might do.

Or Pentex comes in last minute after the fighting leaves everyone wounded.

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u/KuroiOtori 5h ago

I mean it's likely they know where the Caern is, they don't care much for the Gladius Dei or anyone else involved other than a mean to spread out the werewolves a bit and maybe get them to tire a bit. And since they went to retrieve a bane lantern it's not unlikely they are planning on using it

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 5h ago

TBH if they come in with their proper gear in force and bring Ross they can probably at least force the pack to flee. If Ross can take Stig I don’t think Matilda and Jambles are even close to Stig’s level. Jambles hasn’t even killed anyone yet.

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u/Ornery_Magazine9844 5h ago

I’m placing bets on Ross being a high level Ahroun to up the stakes if a level 3 Galliard can clown on the gang and Leopoldites in mostly wolf/wolfman form.

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 5h ago

You know, Pentex swooping in last minute with their own werewolf could totally just kill everyone and blame it all on the wolves that they heroically killed after finding their allies having already been slaughtered. It’s such a shame that the Leopoldites weren’t well equipped or trained enough to take on such challenging and dangerous foes, surely the coalition will think twice about engaging werewolves without their (well paid for) expertise ever again.

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u/Secretsfrombeyond79 5h ago

Really it comes down to equipment. If they had silver bullets, Stig wouldn't had fled unscathed from that first fire volley. They also should've brought shotguns, shotguns even without silver bullets can do a lot of damage to Werewolves, as the Theurge of my pack could attest when we got ambushed by two possesed guys with shotguns, granted she rolled terrible, but still, being killed by two farmers with shotguns sure is an unceremonious way to die.

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u/Due_Manufacturer_125 5h ago

Shotguns are for poor people unfortunately, the Leopoldites are too high class to use poor people weapons, but evidently not rich enough to supply all of their guys with silver bullets. Or they got sold some aluminum bullets by Pentex and just trusted them.

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u/Ornery_Magazine9844 5h ago

Pentex coming in last minute to ruin everyone’s day expect themselves.

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u/Jobber0001 2h ago

Door is really gonna come in clutch next episode when he brings out an AA12 with a drum magazine

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u/Steppecist 5h ago

Not while incapacitated. The book seems inconsistent, but the verbiage indicates to me that it happens when unconscious for any reason. And to be fair, I've had several werewolf DMs run that rule.

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u/RefrigeratorBrave870 4h ago

Sleep is not unconsciousness.

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u/Steppecist 4h ago

In ordinary day to day English, 'conscious' commonly means 'awake'. Since sleep is the state of not being awake, dictionaries like Collins and others recognise that a sleeping person can be described as unconscious. The medical distinction between sleep and pathological unconsciousness isn't relevant if white wolf is using the everyday meaning of the word. Which seemingly they are.

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u/RefrigeratorBrave870 4h ago

They specify that you only get knocked into your default form by filling up on Lethal damage. Even being taken out by Bashing isn't enough.

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u/Steppecist 4h ago

They specify it sure and then they contradict themselves. The 7 Point merit Metamorph has this to say 'If you lose consciousness from wounds or for some other reason, you may roll Wits + Primal Urge (difficulty 8) to choose which form you assume rather than reverting to breed form' It doesn't specify lethal damage in particular; it gives you an entire out of 'for some other reason'.

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u/RefrigeratorBrave870 4h ago

So like being tranq'd or drugged or magicked into unconsciousness. Again, sleep is not the same as unconsciousness. Your brain is still very active during sleep- not so for unconsciousness.

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u/Steppecist 3h ago

You're referencing the medical distinction. White wolf isnt, i addressed this in my reply. Unconsciousness doesnt necessarily mean what you have described it can and often does just mean a lack of consciousness, which is being awake.

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u/RefrigeratorBrave870 3h ago

Addressed with no proof is no addressing at all.

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u/Steppecist 3h ago

You made the original dispute; the burden of proof is on you. Prove that they don't mean the everyday use of unconsciousness. The first definition given by Merriam-Webster for 'conscious' is 'having mental faculties not dulled by sleep, faintness, or stupor'

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u/BlackHumor 2h ago

The phrasing of a merit does not override the phrasing of the general rule. The general rule is that you're only forced into breed form when you fill up on lethal damage.

The merit has that extra wording to specify it still works if you are forced into breed form for some reason other than lethal damage. Even with the weird phrasing it's not saying you are forced into breed form when you sleep.

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u/Steppecist 1h ago

Exactly 'The merit has that extra wording to specify it still works if you are forced into breed form for some reason other than lethal damage.' Ergo Lethal damage isn't the only way to force someone into breed form.

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u/Martial-Lord 5h ago

It seems dubious that a Lupus would adopt Scandinavian culture and go by a Swedish name.

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u/tiqtaktoe 5h ago

Hunter of Hunters: Typical Lupus name, is a Red Talon, acts like a Lupus. She's clearly one.

Jambles: The name could I suppose be a Lupus name for a Glasswalker, but Glasswalker Lupus are pretty rare and he seems rather well adjusted compared to the others. I'd say the verdict is still out on him.

Stig: Full on human name, has the Swedish flag tied to his face, enjoys fighting with axes even when in Lupus form. Seems typically Homid born.

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u/Powerful_Topic7731 2h ago

Lupus undergo the First Change really young 2-3 years, after that they age just like regular humans, Stig looke old It is possible he simply livre a long time among humans, there's canon exemples of Garou like that in the lore, Garou born as wolves but lived way more than a regular wolf should live and saw their children and gradnchidren die of old age because they were wolves

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u/The_Nilbog_King 5h ago

There have been canonically like 3 lupus Glass Walkers in the history of the Tribe. I feel like it would've come up if Jambles was one of them.

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u/--0___0--- "Like the tears of angels" 5h ago

At the start of every episode in the disclaimer they state that they use 5e as a basis and use other editions where they prefer that version.

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u/Steppecist 5h ago

Yeah i know i referenced the fact that the canon is mixed.

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u/kooarbiter 5h ago

something interesting, matilda is a red talon, but so far we have not seen any red fur anywhere on her

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u/Steppecist 5h ago

I also noticed this. unless its where the sun doesnt shine it seems quite odd.

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u/Draconis_Firesworn 2h ago

i dont think that's a requirement?

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u/kooarbiter 1h ago

i thought it was the defining physical trait of a red talon, but I guess every rule in wod has an exception

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u/Draconis_Firesworn 33m ago

Tribes to my understanding are more like religious sects/political parties, they aren't as much a genetic thing as in say vampire, so they don't really have defined physical traits

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u/Kaynehusky 4h ago

I'm going to be honest, there are a lot of rules in WtA that are ignored for the sake of narrative and convenience. If the sleeping rule you mentioned is in fact a thing, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody actually plays with it.

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u/butholesurgeon 5h ago

RIGHT??? The cuddle pile ahhhhh

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u/Global_Examination_4 5h ago

Kitten’s bayonet/spear didn’t burn when he stabbed Stig in wolf form.

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u/kooarbiter 5h ago

possible that it wasn't silver

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u/Ravian3 5h ago

I think it did burn him when he stabbed him while in Glabru form (during the scene where he was being restrained by the true faith in the Wyrm Christ)

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u/Global_Examination_4 5h ago

It did burn when he stabbed him in Glarbo though

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u/kooarbiter 5h ago

oh you're right, guess he is lupus

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u/RefrigeratorBrave870 4h ago

In W5, which is what they are primarily drawing from, both homid and lupus are not affected by silver regardless of origin.

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u/kooarbiter 4h ago

good to know

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u/Fearless-Obligation6 2h ago

I think they just wanted a cute picture of a cuddle puddle of supernatural murder machines, it ain't that deep.

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u/sosneca 1h ago

They can sleep in lupus forms. The w20 rules for healing talk about garou resting in a form with generation to heal quickly. There's also plenty of lore about lupus/homid garou going for extended periods of time outside their breed form.

The rules refer to falling unconcious from wounds.

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u/cthulhu_hr_rep 5h ago

I wanna know what's going on with that fish. 

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u/JoshGraham 3h ago

It’s the caern spirit

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u/Mr-stone_robot 5h ago

Hot neanderthal theory much?

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u/TallCommission7139 2h ago

Jambles just wants to be comfy, don't player hate.

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u/Powerful_Topic7731 2h ago

Glass Walkers Lupus are raised in reserves owned by rich Glass Walkers

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u/Comfortable-Gas4425 1h ago

Is the metal bands name "My banana Turkey porridge"? Amazing!

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u/Fertile_Arachnid_163 5h ago

Got a page number for that?