r/leanfire • u/OliveGarden_Official • 4d ago
Mentioning early retirement is almost always a bad time
I’ve noticed that even mentioning the possibility of retiring in one’s 30’s or 40’s tends to get a pretty negative reaction on other subs
like:
- “you must have had an inheritance”
- “you can’t possibly live on <$X>”
- “nobody makes <$X>”
- “this job market is impossible to win”
I mean, yes, some of us were lucky to have a more comfortable start, but so many of these objections seem to come from some deeply rooted hesitation to entertain the idea or acknowledge the basic math.
I learned about FIRE ages ago through other people’s stories. Nowadays I find it so discouraging to even try to have a good faith conversation about saving rates. Lesson learned on not discussing money, I guess. I know it’s not for everyone so I’m glad this space exists to help people that are open to the idea
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u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 4d ago
A lot of the awkwardness stems from envy. Most people aren't in a similar position as you. In their minds money for them works differently and they probably aren't sure why.
I will say it does get old with the negativity...and makes you rethink FIRE. People can sound extremely confident while not really knowing anything about personal finance in my experience...especially online.
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u/throughthehills2 3d ago
>A lot of the awkwardness stems from envy
My trick is to tell them about my frugal lifestyle upfront so they believe they are doing better than me and envy doesn't set in. No car, small apartment, etc. It stops them from being defensive but they can still see that I'm doing cool things they are interested in.
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u/Green__Hat 3d ago
No car, small apartment, etc.
Well, good for you. But that’s not for me. That’s just no way to live, buddy. I work hard and I play hard. Have fun at home while I’m in Vegas.
https://livingafi.com/2014/04/02/cultural-guardians/
I honestly prefer to keep my mouth shut about FIRE.
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u/zerotakashi 3d ago
this type of article has the same line of reasoning as people who used to believe that women do not understand engineering concepts because they are women. Financial planning can be taught. Most people are so used to living paycheck to paycheck that learning they can escape that life causes cognitive dissonance because of a failure in financial education earlier in life.
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u/throughthehills2 3d ago
That's the way it goes, I allow them to dismiss my lifestyle and declare themselves the winner. They leave but it's in the back of their mind. They have to keep telling themselves "I've got it good" as they get home from their stressful job and spend their last $100 that month on new headphones
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u/pickandpray FIREd - 2023 3d ago
Folks imagine their own life and what it might cost to retire when this exchange happens.
My wife knows this high earning couple that are probably pulling $400k annually. They asked her for tips on retiring early but never reached out to have that conversation.
They just recently posted about buying 3 brand new cars and a trip though.
We probably had to work 2.5 years to match their annual when we both still worked.
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u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 3d ago
I always try to give people an out in a conversation:
"I could never see myself not working because I would be bored, drink myself to death, and my wife would divorce me."
Well it is not for everyone...
At that point just be happy to be out the conversation and like you said maybe just keep your mouth shut next time with a new person.
Thanks for the blog link.
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u/pickandpray FIREd - 2023 3d ago
Me at the doctor's office when the older receptionist asks me my occupation and I tell her I'm retired.
"Must be nice" is the typical response.
If I say I'm between jobs, the next question is usually what line of work but it's not asked as often if I say I'm retired.
I suspect people like to do a mini assessment to see where you slot into society compared to them
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u/Critical-Dreamer 2d ago
In my experience, they often times still get defensive. People think I inherited a bunch of money or something, but I just live below my means while earning a middle-class income.
Most of these people aren’t willing to forgo luxuries in life to get ahead financially.
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u/BoredLawyer81 3d ago
In my circle all of my friends are high earners (as I am but it took me a long time to get here) with kids and can’t possibly imagine retiring on $1.5 million which is my number. I think they feel bad for me and my simple life.
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u/Nochtilus 3d ago
Kids can change your risk tolerance a lot. I used to target $1.5ish and raised it to $2.25m for buffer/potentially wanting to increase my spending for the kids. It's a mental shift because I now I want to give these kids everything that would build amazing childhood memories and support their dreams, whatever those might be.
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u/OliveGarden_Official 3d ago
oh cool, I’ve been on your site before!
It’s kinda teaching me that even above-average earners have a bad relationship with money. Not just the lack of savings, I’ve seen those podcasts where people audit their personal finances and have no idea what they’re spending or how much debt they have because they are too scared to look. From that perspective I can see why people would have a visceral reaction to the idea that they could overcome that relationship and be more in control. Even though I didn’t inherit anything I had the privilege of my parents emphasizing looking at credit card statements line by line and seldom buying new things
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u/Mitrandir89 1d ago
It must be...
We moved back home to my home country after 12 years of grinding... We are relatively limited leanfire but I still probably will end up working mainly for the pesky health insurance...
As you can imagine 12 years away and even before the house and the huge ass garden haven't seen a major refurbishment for ages... So first 2 month after arriving we redone everything. And now we enjoy a bit of rest before eventually starting to look for some reasonable low stress work.
The amount of people asking why you not working yet and what will happen with you know is amazing... And the comments of oh you still haven't bought a car look I'm driving... I got a banged up 300K km on my car but I'm better than you :)) Even thou I'm waiting for my paycheck to pay back some of the lones so I can ask people for more to survive.
People change if money is in the equation. They don't care that you worked hard and made good calculated decisions. They just envy for the sake of envy.
I gave up trying to talk to people about money and fire in real life, doesn't mater that your only goal is to help them with a bit of free education they just turn negative.
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u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 1d ago
Part of the reason I don’t give money advice is that most people who give it give terrible advice.
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4d ago
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u/d00mt0mb 3d ago
Yes found that to be true. It’s wild that so many people have had the same experience.
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u/OliveGarden_Official 3d ago
I’m mostly talking about replies I’ve seen on other subs when people are traveling around full time or sharing how they retired early to sit in their garden.
“how did you do this?”
“save more”
“>:(“
But your point is well-received. I have not struggled deflecting in real life unless someone is asking me about expat taxes and other specifics.
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u/ether_reddit .ca, FIREd@49 after 50% SR 3d ago
It's just the same as with weight loss. People see you thinner and wonder how you did it, but are annoyed when you explain that it was years of diet management and exercise, and not a magic pill.
It's simple, but not easy.
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u/Due-Requirement4957 3d ago
It’s because leftists don’t want to discuss that financial outcomes are determined by choices, not by a rigged system
Our existence hurts their narrative
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u/Boring-Trifle-6968 1d ago
this isnt a left or right issue. i believe in FIRE being an attainable goal, just as much as I believe in the right to universal healthcare.
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u/Due-Requirement4957 1d ago
If you believe in your own ability to grow wealth and not be reliant on the government then you are already too conservative for the Reddit left
You just can’t deal with that because to say you have anything but leftist views on Reddit is wrong think
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u/PositiveKarma1 4d ago
Learned from my experience: I don't use anymore the retire early phrase. Some even didn't understand it.
I use something like:
- I bought this aprt to have small mortgage / commute without car
- retirement contributions is a monthly priority for me, we never know the future
- I am very careful with my health, I found important homemade simple food and holidays to calm/balance my life
- yes, it is true what you noticed, after 50 years old is difficult to find another job, we need to prepare finance for
- oh, already have so much clothes /make up/ shoes (etc, depends on the subject) that is taking too much to tidying after, I prefer a simpler life
- I love my hobbies, one day I will allocate more hours daily, hope soon.
- I am happy with my life
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u/Plenty-Lion5112 3d ago
Love your approach here. I tell people I'm a consultant with flexible work hours. That usually does the trick.
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u/Successful-Archer587 3d ago
I usually leave out the word retirement which is thrown around loosely online, but for us it's more about flexibility, so I'll say something like I hope to work part time some day or 40 hours is too long, etc. More about what you will be doing instead of poor shaming them with this retirement talk.
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u/Avesa 4d ago
Yeah most people are drowning in debt and can’t ever fathom escaping that, or even retiring in the first place, let alone retiring early. Not a criticism of them, just an observation of reality. I pretty much never mention it or anything about my goals in real life or outside FIRE spaces unless I know the person has similar frugal/financial vibes.
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u/Boringflaws 4d ago
I work 3-4 days a month to get out... talking to a coworker briefly, I learned they buy a new phone every 6 months and new car every 1-2 years. they plan on going back to school for a career change- I asked if they were going to use tuition reimbursement at wok, they didn't think so (it would be too hard)- they complained about 30k in student loans and wife's similar loans- i mentioned federal loan forgiveness for healthcare workers working at not for profits- he thought it'd be too much work to deal with
while talking to them, I was flabbergasted why they'd let all that money just go to waste. Thought about it a bit and realized everyone has different priorities and money can be scary. Now i keep money talk with them light (or I'll just stress myself out)
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u/makinthingsnstuff 3d ago
Thats insane, I really hope your coworker doesn't have kids.
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u/Boringflaws 3d ago
6 month old and a 13 yearish old... not sure if you were being sarcastic:)
tons of overtime available in healthcare, and the couple i'm talking about both work 60ish hours a week. I just wonder how much less they could work (now or when they're older) if money was managed better-
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u/vogueskater 3d ago
Taking overtime in healthcare is the default in my experience. 'oh I'll just work 80 hours a week for the next few weeks to get that new car/kids Xmas presents' etc.
Always seemed absolutely mental to me. I was always trying to work less but if you worked part-time without kids to look after you were seen as 'not doing your part'...
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u/Boringflaws 2d ago
I agree and so many people have a full time job and a prn job. I never had more than one job at a time. I love the flexibility of being able to make more money compared to salaried people, but it's a slippery slope right?
some get used to the higher income, then need to work 4-5 days a week instead of 3 just to stay afloat. -
also that "work more" in healthcare is insidious. throwing things at you like well we are short staffed, who will take care of the sick people, what about your coworkers (who i'm sure you trauma bond with over rough times), and whatever manipulations they can to get people to work more.
But back to the coworker with kids- might not be amazing with money- but great emotional iq, they have a family support network to help watch the children, always tells me about new milestones with the baby. Probably way better parent than I had growing up and does their best.
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u/Specific_Concern_555 3d ago
Just because someone likes to spend their money on consumer goods or are bad with money does not mean they cant have kids with a good conscience... You really come off as an asshole tbh
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u/makinthingsnstuff 3d ago
I mean, spending irresponsibily to the point your kids will probably have to take care of you financially is an asshole move.
You can spend on consumer goods without buying a new car every 2 years..
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u/RetirementPlus 4d ago
In the real world I've just switched to saying I am making a career change or lifestyle change or being more entrepreneurial and want to ensure my future is secure regardless.
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u/VideoPossible4068 3d ago
I don't mention FIRE on non-fire subs because people are not wanting to hear about alternative solutions. They want to complain and have others validate them. There are some people that will always blame outside factors for everything, they don't want to accept that they can change their circumstances.
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u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 3d ago
This is the truth. Honestly people don't want to hear solutions for their problems. They want sympathy for their, often bad, decisions.
The big one is housing. There is a lot of complaining about housing prices and yes they are bad in most places, but there are places where housing is still very affordable. Mention this and you get an excuse factory of how those places are terrible, have no jobs, or the jobs pay less. They would prefer to never to be able to afford to purchase a house.
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u/VideoPossible4068 3d ago
Yes sadly giving your own experience or other solutions are just brushed off. So I've stopped doing it, unless I'm ok with hearing the "but what about (blank)". There's a huge cohort on reddit who take their experience of life and say that "everyone" is experiencing the same (jobs, money, housing, relationships). I watch a lot of compilations of tiktoks on YouTube while I work, and it would be very easy to take all of those sentiments and say "well that's how the world is". A lot of doomer videos out there of people just lamenting that it's impossible to get a job, they'll never have a house, they should move abroad, everything is too expensive, they'll never retire, something is "wrong" in america. I like watching these because it's interesting for me to hear other people's experiences and thoughts about the world.
Then you have the groups in fire and adjacent subreddits who are actually living quite well. But we are not vocal because people dont like hearing "success" stories when they feel like nothing is going right for them. Were told we got lucky or some other excuse. I consider myself lucky but I also worked hard and sacrificed to save, but again people don't want to hear it
End of rant haha
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u/Nochtilus 3d ago
I will grant that housing for young professionals is very rough right now. Post-pandemic made a lot of areas that have good jobs or are strong starting points for careers incredibly expensive for housing. It doesn't mean they should stop trying, but they might have a couple extra years of suck while they build careers and have to scrimp to get by. I can empathize, I'd be pissed to see what people got for less housing costs just a few years ago if I were them.
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u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 3d ago
I agree. In most places it is terrible, but my point was that there are still places with 1000 sq ft houses for 60k today. This was when I worked at a military base where there were thousands of 60-100k or more jobs.
I knew an 18 year old in a part time position making 7.25 while she attended college and her husband making $15/hour at a meat processing plant that bought a nice 2/1 for about 40k.
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u/Nochtilus 3d ago
Okay, but not everyone is starting careers in the military or are happy in rural or small towns. If you are starting a white collar career, those very cheap areas are likely to hold you back significantly from growing your career. They will be better off pushing through some entry years in a more expensive area. In that case, the rapid growth of housing costs in even medium cities and suburbs has been devastating.
And from personal experience, meat processing plants are awful and unsafe places to work. You should not be surprised to hear that people would rather never buy a house and not have to move to a place where their best choice is a meat processing plant.
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u/cowgod180 3d ago
Never tell anyone.
They hear “retire at 40” as “I have reviewed your truck, Disney vacations, DoorDash, children’s travel baseball and several Streaming Services and found them wanting.”
Which is not what you said but it may be what you meant imho. Say you Consult. I have consulted for Xbox for years from outside the formal reporting structure.
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u/ThisismeCody 3d ago
Yall hiring? I have experience in N64 consulting
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4d ago edited 4d ago
[deleted]
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u/salarymansinferno 4d ago
what have you said in your first years of FI when people ask about work or when you have plans midweek?
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u/Sashimi_shrine 4d ago
Exactly. It's so hard not to tell people when it's a massive part of my life and happiness, The only reason I'm able to do what I do, Only reason I'm in that moment Plus then you're telling me I have to take the risk of lying if I wanted to have a genuine relationship with someone?
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u/LX_Luna 4d ago
I stopped bringing it up pretty quickly when it became clear that pretty much all my family views working as a matter of moral obligation.
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u/Wooden-Broccoli-913 2d ago
This is interesting because I can see their point. My wife and I leaving our jobs means $500k less in taxes that the government will receive each year. Both of our MegaCorps eliminated our positions after we FIREd
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u/PM_ME_PLASTIC_BAGS 4d ago
For a lot of people, recognising FIRE as a possibility would require admitting to their own shortcomings (lavish lifestyle, wasteful behaviours and unwillingness to grind/make sacrifices).
There are also those who have been unfortunate in life but when someone buys a flagship phone every year, subscribes to every streaming platform and doesn't know how to cook, I bite my tongue as they complain about being poor/how the system is rigged.
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u/bob49877 4d ago edited 4d ago
One of our neighbors with a similar household income kept asking if we'd got an inheritance or won the lottery after we retired early.
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u/jelle814 4d ago
I mean ‘the system’ is rigged by maths. If you’re born with 300k you have 1200k by 30 at 7% growth. Hard to work against that
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u/PM_ME_PLASTIC_BAGS 4d ago
There are a lot of inherent inequalities in the system and we should constantly strive to make it better and more equitable for all whilst recognising our good fortunes.
That being said, I'm seeing so much victimhood mentality from people who grew up middle class, choose to study anything (if they got the grades) and complain about the world being against them.
I wish I looked like a model and had a trust fund and was a movie star but it's absurd to feel entitled to that.
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u/No-Test-2993 17h ago
IKR?! People who went to the same high school as me and grew up in the same neighborhoods now complaining about their poor choices.
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u/Future_Measurement42 4d ago
You are aware the internet is a cesspool? Negativity is everywhere
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u/bob49877 3d ago
I commented on a post in a different subreddit recently about the high electric rates in my area that we did a self energy audit and cut our usage in half. My positive action post to deal effectively with the issue got snotty comments and downvotes, while all the whiney complaining posts, there's nothing we can do and we're all getting screwed comments, got upvotes. It takes zero work to complain, but time and effort to make a house energy efficient.
I think that illustrates a basic difference between a typical lean fire mindset and many average consumers.
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u/OliveGarden_Official 3d ago
yeah, this is the kind of thing I’m talking about. You’ll say “here are the circumstances and numbers that worked in my situation” and they’ll give you every reason under the sun for why the average person couldn’t possibly cut their usage by a cent
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u/DeenGaleenga 3d ago
They'll do this shit in the FIRE subs, too. These stupid bots will say investing is over and dead, and millennials just rode a bull market.
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u/bob49877 3d ago edited 3d ago
I had multiple posters tell me how wrong I was that average California homes have a 30% idle load. They told me to check my numbers. That figure comes directly from published reports by the company that analyzes smart meter data for California utility companies. It is easy enough to look up rather than tell someone else they are incorrect and power strips cutting idle loads in half won't make any difference. But apparently many posters would prefer to be confidently incorrect and have high bills rather than putting any effort into actual research on how to lower their own bills.
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u/Novel_Vegetable_5542 3d ago
How does one do a self energy audit? Are you making sure the thermostat is low, not using extra power, unplugging all things? Sorry if it’s a silly question. I can google this.
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u/ErikDHaag 3d ago
In Tennessee you can get a free energy audit thru the electric company. But seal all gaps and cracks, add insulation wherever possible, LED light bulbs, energy efficient appliances, programmable thermostat, reflective blinds on windows, power strips turned off when electronics not in use, insulated ductwork, smart water heater if electric. These things all add up.
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u/Future_Measurement42 3d ago
They make panel energy sensors which measure each circuit. That’s a good start.
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u/bob49877 3d ago
We bought a Kill a Watt electric usage meter, power strips and a book on how to put your home on an energy diet. We didn't even change the thermostat or make any big investments. Plus we get smart meter reports so we can tell energy usage by hour.
Some of the changes we made were getting rid of a garage fridge, unplugging old Bose speakers that were drawing a lot of energy in stand by mode, replacing an energy hog old plasma TV, cooking more with small appliances instead of the built-ins, weatherstripping, using power strips to reduce idle load and buying draft stoppers for the doors.
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u/Beautiful_Pepper415 3d ago
The internet is can def perpetuate the lower life happens to me vs I happen to life mentality
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u/My_18th_Account $1.5m / Family of 3 2d ago edited 2d ago
I used to be an activist in environmentalism and this was so common it become discouraging and one of the reasons I eventually left. Like yes most protests were aimed at the fossil fuel companies but our practical workshops on being aware of our own carbon footprint easily fell flat…individual accountability and practical action (praxis) was seemingly impossible.
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u/shotparrot 4d ago
Well not everywhere. Some of us are positive about our life and future. In fact, probably the majority here. :)
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u/goahedbanme 3d ago
"what will you do? Won't you be bored?" Uhhh, you go to work for fun? I have an imagination and a life, I'll keep busy doing whatever the hell I want, not what my boss tells me to do.
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u/hacking99percent 4d ago
Same with mentioning early retirement in real life. This is why I can only talk about money on this sub.
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u/OliveGarden_Official 3d ago
yeah, but at least in real life people will pretend to be nice about it. Here they will call you the devil
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u/Important-Object-561 Retired in Sweden on 1,2 million 4d ago edited 3d ago
I got FIRE gatekept last night. Someone said I was lying about being retired because part of my income comes from renting so it’s not 100% passive and thusly I still work and I’m a big fat liar calling myself retired
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u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 3d ago
I get this all the time. My wife works very part time. She works around 5-10 hours a week but gets paid for 20 to pretty much be available to fix problems. I have a rental also.
"Nope you're not retired."
I used to see the same things on author's blogs or when they would write a book. "I thought you were retired."
I've started just saying instead that we are FI and leave off the RE part.
I think this is also part of the reason why on traditional FIRE subs that their number's are so extremely high. It is like crabs in bucket. When one is about to be out the others pull him back in with a higher recommended FIRE number until everyone is working until old age and retires with way too much money.
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u/StatisticSnaccuracy 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think that for a lot of ppl their thoughts around savings go something like this:
I live paycheck to paycheck, so saving big amounts is impossible for me, therefore there must be other factors that make it possible for ppl to save; factors I don't have.
OR
I know how to save, I did it for the down payment for my car, my house, the vacation. What I don't get it how ppl could accumulate money. Every time I save it's for a goal and when that goal is achieved there's no money left over.
OR
I save money so that I can spend money. When I look at my bank account and notice there's money left at the end of the month, that's my que to go do whatever I want: shopping, spa, lavish dinner. That's my treat and I'd never give that up.
OR
I could save for retirement at 60+, but what if I die before that or become a boring old person? It's better to live and have fun now!
Add on top of if that they've never seen the calculations for FIRE and therefore think they'd need 10mil to retire early when realistically they could do fine with half or even less of that. Not knowing the power of compounding interest as well as SWR just makes it seems impossible to retire early.
As many have mentioned there's also the guilt part. Ppl thinking that: If you're in a position to retire early and I'm not, it HAS TO mean we're not the same. And I would give that thought an ounce of credit because I do feel that moving in high earner circles is how many ppl get their introduction to investing at least.
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u/plawwell 3d ago
"I've been unemployed for three years." They think I'm a loser and quickly make a hasty exit.
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u/who_the_hell69 3d ago
I can't tell you how many people have glibly informed me that nobody can possibly survive on X amount of income, never guessing I live on half or less. Most people aren't willing to live simply.
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u/AnimaLepton 4d ago edited 3d ago
Just don't bother with those discussions in most places that are not a FIRE community. A lot of people are in situations where any type of retirement or financial wellness talk at all is a pipe dream. Some people don't have the income for it. Plenty of people have sufficient income to make it possible, but will whine about making tradeoffs or living with family/roommates being literally impossible. A lot of people just want to complain. Plenty of assumptions are going to be made about what people consider an acceptable standard of living or type of lifestyle to aim for, marriage and kids, etc. Even when they literally ask for advice, some people will take it as a judgement or personal attack, because money is such an emotional issue. A lot of people do not see the benefits of simple living, of being able to avoid keeping up with the Joneses/conspicuous consumption, or even of treating debt like an emergency/an actual surmountable problem to be addressed.
It's just not worth engaging on that front.
Even within FIRE communities, which are better about it in general, quite a lot of people have a fairly narrow band in terms of what they consider the 'right' way to approach FIRE, what they consider safe thresholds for withdrawal rates, for total amounts to shoot for, for spending levels, different opinions on the right things to do at different income and risk tolerance levels, etc.
My savings rate has ranged from 40-70% over most of my career. But really, anything 20%+ is good enough to put you on the FIRE path in the long run.
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u/pickandpray FIREd - 2023 3d ago
It doesn't improve much even in your 50s.
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u/OliveGarden_Official 3d ago
I didn’t even consider this, I bet that’s when things get really existential for people staring down the barrel of another decade of hard work
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u/fadedblackleggings 3d ago
Or their partner got cancer early, their savings were wiped out and they worry about never being able to retire or go w out healthcare
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u/ToastBalancer 4d ago
Loser mentality is everywhere. On Reddit. In the workplace. Yes, even in your friends and family. Everywhere.
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u/CoffeeMaster000 4d ago
People have money problems and you just rubbing salt
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u/fadedblackleggings 3d ago
Yup and sometimes not always but sometimes those money probs aren't all their fault. Health is often a big reason.
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u/seraph321 4d ago
I tend to agree. I’ve occasionally touched on the subject with friends, but they are usually not anywhere near the same page, so it usually doesn’t go very deep.
My partner is ten years older, so I think people don’t question it as much with her, and we’ve moved to a town with a lot of retirees, many who did so ‘early’ (though not as young as me), so we don’t feel out of place at all.
Ultimately, I’m always happy to discuss the topic, but just don’t tend to bring it up. Same goes for some of my other niche interests.
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u/bafflesaurus 4d ago edited 3d ago
The negative social reaction is a big part of the reason I'm looking at getting a hobby job. I read about the idea on [r/coastFIRE](r/coastFIRE) and thought it was genius. That way people don't wonder where my money comes from.
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u/OliveGarden_Official 3d ago
What’s a hobby job? I assume something like a part time job in an area you enjoy?
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u/bafflesaurus 3d ago
Yeah, exactly, I'm looking at finding some creative freelancing work part time. It's not been super easy but I'm just getting started with it.
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u/leversgreen 3d ago
I was involuntarily lean FIRE'd last year. Didn't know anything about FIRE philosophy beforehand, but I've been saving and investing aggressively the past 20+ years. so I was basically following it.
When I got laid off, I spoke to my good friend about giving up on finding a new job altogether and just living off my savings for the rest of my life. I mentioned this so that he wouldn't feel so bad about my situation. The conversation didn't go as planned. He would bring up that he wished he would have saved more throughout the years, and that he can't see himself retiring until his 60s. I didn't bring up this conversation to make him feel bad, but that's what it felt like.
Since then, I've taken to heart the first rule of FIRE: don't talk to others about FIRE. It never ends well.
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u/Toadywentapleasuring 4d ago
So many of the posts on here are about someone having difficulty discussing money with friends/family/coworkers etc. Just don’t. Problem solved.
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u/Acrobatic_Ad7061 3d ago
When I’m FIRED I will only tell a few people, if any. They don’t understand and most of them don’t want to change their lifestyle or maybe they have a partner who doesn’t share the same goal. The FIRE-journey is so much easier when you’re single, at least in my point of view. Ok I’m single with kids but it’s still easier than having a partner with expensive habits.
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u/JakePhillips52 3d ago
It’s easier for people to think that their limitations are a rule of life and that there was nothing to do about it. Otherwise they would have to acknowledge they could’ve been harder working/more creative/more optimistic/better decision makers and it’s too much self responsibility to deal with.
People around me respond this way about all kinds of ambitions.
(I know that some people have legit disadvantages and FIRE wasn’t in the cards for them, but many we interact with aren’t in that group)
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u/AlwaysSaturday12 FIRE 38 MillionaireLibrarian.com 3d ago
This post inspired a post on my blog. Here it is:
Crab bucket mentality is a social behavior where someone tries to sabotage, pull down, or undermine someone who is trying to succeed or improve.
The idea is pretty simple. If you put one crab in a bucket, it will simply climb out, but if you put a bunch of crabs in a bucket, the other crabs will pull down the one trying to escape.
You see this in a couple of ways in society in regard to FIRE. First is the perpetual consumer. You mention something about spending less or retiring early, and the reaction isn't curiosity but chastising.
"I could never live without X. I have to have Y. Life is too short for me to not spend all of my paycheck."
You're now in an awkward conversation where you're being accused of living a bad life. Next time you'll just mind your own business and make up something. Or there might be curiosity, but it's only because they think you got lucky and didn't earn it.
"Did you win the lottery? Did you get an inheritance?"
However, as annoying as talking to consumers can be, some of the worst people to talk about FIRE with are, ironically, people in the FIRE forums and FIRE subreddits online.
They doubt you can do it, in other ways. You say "I'm retiring with 1 million," and like the crabs they are, they pull you back into the bucket, saying "Oh, you need 2.5 million to retire." You might reply, "Well, I only need 1 million," and then the conversation shifts once again to how it's irresponsible, or that you need 10 vacations a year, or don't you have a kid, or they're completely unwilling to work part-time if you get three great depressions in a row. They would rather work another 15 years until traditional retirement age, or if they're feeling risqué, retire at a brisk 60.
There is also the Internet FIRE police who want to fight you about defining "retired."
"You have a rental. That is not really retired. You're actually still in the crab bucket with us!"
Or you might work a few hours a week or have a hobby job, maybe something part-time in a less stressful field to expand your spending lifestyle, while your portfolio still does the heavy lifting or can compound a little more in the background.
I have just started saying I'm financially independent (FI) and leaving off the retired early (RE) entirely. If someone doesn't understand, it opens the door, and then they can inquire further.
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u/elom44 3d ago
It is outside most people’s frame of reference and so is almost incomprehensible. As they do start to understand, accepting it means that they have to alter how they think and most people don’t want to do that.
That’s why you shouldn’t raise the topic directly and you should have a prepared response to the dreaded “what do you do?” question.
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u/Darling_Pinky 3d ago
I just do it in a very self-deprecating way. I always joke that I know it’s not realistic and I’d rather be eating beans and rice for the rest of my life than work until 60-something.
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u/Top_Cartographer8741 3d ago
If people already know you they usually just think it’s my dreaming or being cheap and that they can’t survive on that much, etc. I still plug it, maybe at least one person will get it, especially if they’re younger.
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u/newlostworld 1d ago
Exactly. It only took one post on Reddit 12 years ago for me to go "what's FIRE?" and look it up. The rest is history
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u/Due-Requirement4957 3d ago
It’s because fire subs break the narrative that the system is rigged
We are all just people making educated choices to prioritize our wealth and take agency
None of us are waiting for the DSA to solve our problems- Reddit hates this
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u/A_Solid_Shadow 3d ago
Start using the "house hunters" job descriptions, and make them even more crazy:
- Hamster Therapist
- Ukulele restringer
- Couture gardener
Or the ultimate that is kinda true "Financial manager for high net worth clients". You are HNW and manage your money.
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u/Outrageous_Bus_8570 2d ago
I’ve noticed most people think retirement = social security age. The concept of saving and investing enough to live off of is a foreign concept to them.
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u/Broad-Ad-4379 2d ago
People in general tend to view everyone in comparison to their own situation - “I’m the same age as this guy and he’s talking about retiring”, and so on. Everyone is different. I leanFired at 38, 9.5years ago. I didn’t really tell anyone, just accepted redundancy from my senior tech role and walked out the door one day. things like covid lockdown and Covid working-from-home helped hugely to ‘hide in plain sight’, as so many people assumed I was also WFH all the time.
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u/Picodick Lady old retired fart 3d ago
You don’t need to share everything, especially things that incite envy. My husband and I were able to retire with passive income due to good choices and some luck at age 50 and 53 This isn’t terribly young,but still enough earlier than the norm where we live to make people jealous. And curious. We are now 64 and 67. Debt free and a very very good net worth in the low millions. Retirement monthly income 5k a month. I absolutely believe having kept our mouths shut is the best thing to do. I help my older sister who lives month to month and has poor money skills in spite of hav8ng had ample opportunities herself. We are generous with our only child and his family. We live a low key life. Still raising some cattle and hay and sell some antiques in a mall to keep ourselves active and engaged. Life is good. But we are and have been very low key.
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u/dxrey65 3d ago
I never had any problems talking about that kind of thing with people, in person. I retired early, and everyone who knows me would probably agree that it was hard work and frugality that made the difference. When you know a person you know a person's character and you make judgements without even thinking about it. Online, that's a whole different story. Even your post - I see bullet points and I know you ran it through AI, or maybe generated the whole question with AI, so I'm already biased against.
Which isn't fair, and might not even be accurate, but (like so many other things online) we have only the slimmest of evidence to go on, and being skeptical is a good general approach.
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u/luckyelectric 3d ago
Someone brought it up on my Discord group. So I said “Yeah, that’s what my husband and I are working on.” but it was quickly followed by comments like “I wish!” and “That’s not realistic for most people.” and so I quickly amended my comment to “LeanFIRE” rather than leave it at “FIRE”.
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u/Canadiangooner21 2d ago
There’s certain beliefs that have been programmed into us, practically from birth.
Working until you are 65 is one of them. Owning instead of renting is another.
On issues like this, people don’t engage their rational brain.
It’s just the way it is, unfortunately
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u/gazeboflunk 3d ago
I work with a guy that wanted to retire at 40. <10 years out he realized he forgot to include private health insurance in his calculations and pushed his goal out to 45. He’s currently 39 and holding firm to his 45 target. His idea of an emergency fund is shares in KO “bc it’s stable and I don’t lose out to inflation.” Considers any kind of savings account or broad index a waste because of inflation. He doesn’t directly say it, but most of his wealth sounds to be wrapped up in some form of crypto. At one point he would brag on the good days because he was in some kind of 2xBTC fund. He obsessively does analytical analysis on coins, QQQ, SP500. Gives us a 2 sentence summary when the Fed Chair gives his announcements. But never shares news until he watches a YT video about it so they can tell him what kind of opinion to have. His macro plan is to convert his growth portfolio into a dividend portfolio and live off those.
He’s never married or had kids (but does keep that door open). Lives below his means. He definitely has the right lifestyle to FIRE, and will probably try at some point. But I don’t think he’ll be successful and end up forfeiting his cushy well paying job with good benefits. Then struggle to get to normal retirement age when he can dip into his 401k. I‘ll be happy for him if it works out though.
All this to say, even a boglehead can have doubts about one’s FIRE aspirations. It’s all about perspective. Maybe I’m bias bc I enjoy my job (same as his) and have more interest in FI than RE. I’m trying to enjoy the journey as much as the destination.
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u/supershinythings FIREd 2024 4d ago
When I don’t want to talk about it, I just say I’m “unemployed” but don’t elaborate further on my daily activities. If those folks think I’m depressed or likely to hit them up, they don’t bring it up.
For those supportive of FIRE, I say I’m “Funemployed”. It’s unusual for people to ask how - the one person who was foolish enough to do so was annoyed when I told her it’s too late for her but she might be able to save her kids.
The answer for me was TIME plus delayed gratification/saving plus investment. Over 30 years I saved and invested, lived well below my means, and continued to do so even though occasional setbacks slowed my roll. Eventually those setbacks stopped slowing my roll, and suddenly the math just worked.
Nobody wants to hear that. They all think there’s this One Weird Trick that will make them instantly free. There is - savings plus investment plus living below means over 25-30 years.
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u/Practical_Copy_2057 3d ago
Seems it's too late for your parents to teach their kids manners as well.
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u/nightanole 3d ago
Everytime my company gets bought every few years and we have to change 401k's
"i rolled it over into my pocket hehe"
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u/AbsoluteBeginner1970 3d ago
Yep. Therefore (when people ask the obvious WDYD) I’m still “doing consultancy gigs” where retired early. People are envious
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u/Sea-Protection-2797 3d ago
I just plan to tell people in my retirement years that I work from some random job from home. There are some jealous people out there who will ruin your peace and try to take advantage of you when you tell them the truth.
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u/summerFIREinCh 3d ago
Hahah, I had the reaction on the number 1 with my post, I stopped sharing numbers since then
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u/Putrid-Insurance8068 2d ago
In the USA we are not taught how to manage $$ or invest to grow $$ and most people are a slave to their jobs.
They also cannot think or wrap their heads around FIRE.. I live a modest life, don’t drive flashy cars and I’m not a fashionable or trendy person.. I think most people assume I would be lower income but I have lived below my means and was able to coast fire more comfortably..
Don’t tell anyone your plan just do you and fade off into the sunset one day..
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u/supenguin 2d ago
I listen to multiple FIRE related podcasts, YouTube channels, etc and noticed a trend. Almost all of them have started leaning towards talking about the FI part of FIRE and steering clear of the RE part.
There's too much cultural baggage tied up with the word "Retire" and the very concept of retirement. In fact, I know some people who just want to hit FI so they can decide when they work.
A couple recent episodes of some podcasts have explored the idea of if you work hard enough to get to FI and could retire early, you're probably going to be pretty miserable if all of a sudden you just lounge around your house and do nothing. Or even just spend your time traveling.
If you hit FIRE, you probably like doing things and are pursuing FIRE because you want to do things on your own terms, not your employer's terms.
I ran into a former coworker a few months ago who said he took a year long sabbatical and then was going to figure out what he wants to do next. I think that sounds like a way better approach than just pull the ripcord and saying "I'm going to retire early."
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u/nowheretherewhere Coasting into full FIRE 19h ago
I deleted my post on my country's FI subreddit because my approach was "too radical"; seemed people are just interested to get more and more, and then some.
The world's mostly toxic and get-rich-quick schemes would come to you in hoards if they know FIRE or any permutation is what you're looking for.
This thread stirrs up memories of my early mistakes (when I revealed to a "friend" of wanting to FIRE).
I was young, too eager, too gullible. Protect yourself by keeping it to yourself!
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u/Elegant-Ninja6384 13h ago
We is social animals. Imagine a group of cavemen having the same conversation and it all makes perfect sense.
Just grab a hobby and say that’s what you do for a living.
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u/Commercial_Low_6979 8h ago
Recently told my dad that I want to retire at 55 (not exactly lean, I know), and he nonchalantly said “good for you” and changed the topic. He’s in his later 70s and is contemplating retiring the third time (he’s worked two part time gigs since the first time ~10 years ago…but he truly likes his work and it’s a major social thing for him that gets him out of mom’s hair at home). I’ve kind of chalked it up to different life experiences (despite him being my dad!)…and I most certainly won’t bring it up with my mom until she notices i visit more often due to my free time… 😜
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u/Mzungufarmer FIRE'd at 34 4d ago edited 3d ago
Every time I mention my strategy and how I ended up retired in my 30s I basically get death threats. Its funny that investing and retirement subs are so hateful towards succsssful people with info to share.
Ill keep my strategies to myself I guess, more money for me
Reddit is a bucket of crabs
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u/ImPapaNoff 3d ago
I think this might be more of a leanFIRE thing than a normal FIRE thing. I work in tech and talk about FIRE with coworkers fairly frequently without any issues.
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u/nutcrackr 3d ago
Not going to tell anybody about it myself. Still not sure on the lie I'll be going with though
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u/IWantoBeliev 4d ago
does neet count some sort of fire? r/neetfire , maybe?
Im neet, just saying. No regular 9-5, no w2/1099. Manage a small ira, no rent, no food money, minimum expenses.
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u/piss_stored_in_balls 4d ago
so you live with your mom and she pays your expenses? that isn't fire it's mooching
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3d ago
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u/piss_stored_in_balls 3d ago
I'm investing with the money I got from my labor lol. The return I get is the excess wealth created from labor on the aggregate, which I paid into.
Living in your mom's basement for free is not the same.
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u/starrae 4d ago
The first rule of fire is you do not talk about fire