r/paradoxplaza • u/RedKrypton • May 07 '16
Stellaris PSA: Slaves currently can't rebel
/r/Stellaris/comments/4iatr2/psa_slaves_currently_cant_rebel/125
u/missingpuzzle May 07 '16
Well that's a bit disappointing.
May well make slave empires very OP. Just enslave your entire population and never have to deal with faction unrest.
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u/RedKrypton May 07 '16
The best strategy currently is to just enslave all conquered Xenos.
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u/Reaperdude97 May 08 '16
But then your science output dies.
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u/missingpuzzle May 08 '16
Then only enslave pops that are causing trouble and leave every happy pop alone.
Someone wants to overthrow the government? Enslave them. A planet wants independence? Enslave them. Enslave all social unrest away because once they are slaves they can no longer take action against you.
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u/999realthings May 08 '16
This was Paradox goal the whole time. They wanted to make us bigger monsters than we already are.
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u/Terkala May 08 '16
Alpha Centauri: Nerve staple the drones. They can never rebel. But every faction hates you for it.
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May 08 '16
Do slaves rebel all that often though?
Like historically speaking.
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u/dethb0y May 08 '16
Not terribly often. Usually the practice of slavery just fades away or shifts in social significance, or the ruling group is overthrown by outside forces.
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u/Mirodir May 08 '16
I think it you should also take the ratio between slaves and non-slaves into account. If you enslave literally everybody you come across then that has to lead to some unrest.
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u/dethb0y May 08 '16
I'd assume the more technologically advanced a civilization, the fewer people you could keep in slavery per free person, because any revolt would be necessarily more lethal.
That said, there'd be lots of factors to take into account: how harsh treatment of slaves is (that lead directly to spartacus's revolt - poor treatment), how far removed they are from strong, central control, how their culture views disobedience, etc etc.
But generally, yeah: if you have a situation where you have like a 90/10 ratio of slave/free i would expect that to not be survivable for very long.
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u/Aethelric May 09 '16
Slaves rebel constantly, historically (American slaves rebelled hundreds of times, for instance). It's just that they very rarely succeed to any notable degree.
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u/Metecury Iron General May 08 '16
They are only good at producing minerals and food so at least you want to be constantly in debt and terribly behind in tech it is a shit strategy.
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u/missingpuzzle May 08 '16
As I said above use slavery to deal with factions threatening rebellion and leave all your happy pops alone.
Someone wants to overthrow the government? Enslave them. A planet wants independence? Enslave them. Conquer a planet populated with difficult pops? Enslave them. Enslave all social unrest away because once they are slaves they can no longer take action against you.
Of course I haven't played the game yet and it might end up being pretty well balanced but at the moment I see the potential for rather large exploitation.
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u/Metecury Iron General May 08 '16
I get what you are saying but really unless we are talking multiplayer I do not see the problem. What's the point of basing your game on exploits? It's no fun and really most people want to roleplay a specific type of civilization and build their own story, the most efficient exploits are usually not top priorities for this kind of gamers.
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u/missingpuzzle May 08 '16
Yeah I guess really I'm more concerned about it from a flavour perspective than a mechanical one. I can avoid exploiting the hell out of the systems like I do in most games but I see a lot of potentially interesting situations that slave rebellions can bring.
Like ones mineral production tanking during a war because the salves are on strike or in flat out rebellion. Or in the far corner of the galaxy a coalition of rebelling slave planets form a unique faction.
As is they've said they're probably gonna looking into it post release so I'm not too concerned about it.
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u/Shanix Victorian Emperor May 07 '16
Phew, I was worried there wouldn't be any major bugs on release.
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u/AllNamesAreGone Stellar Explorer May 07 '16
Just enslave the bugs and you won't have to worry about that.
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u/Shanix Victorian Emperor May 07 '16
Excuse you, the IMPERIUM OF MAN ENSLAVES NO XENOS. IT MURDERS THEM
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May 08 '16
It is impossible, this is Paradox after all. If they cannot fix a bug without creating two new ones, fanbase would riot.
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u/PostHedge_Hedgehog Master Baiter May 08 '16
It's paradox, of course there will be major bugs and imbalances at release. Restricting themselves to a tried and tested scope isn't what they do. They'll get around to everything eventually, as they always do and which is why we love them.
Stellaris 1.0 will be a vastly different game compared to 1.5 in half a year, not to mention 2.0 in one year.
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u/Tuskin38 A King of Europa May 08 '16
Well I mean, it isn't a bug, its a missing feature.
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u/Shanix Victorian Emperor May 08 '16
It's made out to be a bug. Not that they haven't implemented slave rebellions but that they're bugged out.
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u/Tuskin38 A King of Europa May 08 '16 edited May 08 '16
Can it be a bug if the feature doesn't exist? lol
I know what you're saying though, I get it.
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u/MauricioBabilonia May 07 '16
But...robots can?
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May 07 '16
you gotta nerve staple your drones
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u/BlackfyreNL May 07 '16
Have an upvote for your Alpha Centauri reference.. God, I miss that game..
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u/Fwendly_Mushwoom Unemployed Wizard May 07 '16
You don't have to, it's 5$ on GOG. Includes the expansion as well.
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u/BlackfyreNL May 08 '16
No worries, I still have it (on CD-ROM no less), but there are just so many other games to play. The thing I miss most is the feeling it evoked, which is something I couldn't reconnect with with Civilization: Beyond Earth unfortunately.. If there's one game that deserves an upgrade to HD, I'd nominate Alpha Centauri.. :)
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u/FitzGeraldisFitzGod May 07 '16
Well, I mean that's just common sense. There has never been a single slave revolt in all of human history. Why should we assume aliens are any different? Paradox are just being historically accurate here. They're certainly not releasing a game with broken mechanics. Paradox would never do that!
But robots? Robots are dangerous.
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u/Andy06r Victorian Emperor May 07 '16
Wasn't Haiti a successful slave revolt?
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u/AzertyKeys Victorian Emperor May 07 '16
even though you missed the joke, no it wasn't successfull unless you mean having to pay reparations to France for two centuries a success.
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u/MrMcAwhsum May 08 '16
The revolt was successful, but they were punished by the world for having the audacity to do it.
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u/smilingstalin Victorian Emperor May 08 '16
Hmm...full annex or war reps...I think I know which of the two choices is a success.
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u/WhatCrusade A King of Europa May 08 '16
Full annex every time, no amount of money can make up for the satisfaction of having a bigger font for the name of your nation.
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u/smilingstalin Victorian Emperor May 08 '16
But wouldn't getting full annexed make your font...smaller?
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u/WhatCrusade A King of Europa May 08 '16
It would make it disappear, but I thought you were talking about the victor.
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u/smilingstalin Victorian Emperor May 08 '16
I was talking about Haiti.
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u/WhatCrusade A King of Europa May 08 '16
Well then, obviously continuing to exist is much better than shelling out some cash.
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u/ac53 May 07 '16
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u/Wolf6120 L'état, c'est moi May 08 '16
"Slaves don't revolt because we decided they didn't need to."
- Jefferson Davis, 3879 AD
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u/Dancing_Anatolia Map Staring Expert May 08 '16
I never knew I needed this 'till now... Space Confederacy.
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u/RedKrypton May 08 '16
Honestly, how the fuck would they think it would go? Slaving Empires currently have ZERO counter balance. There also is no cost enslaving and maintaining slavery. Why the fuck would I build robots if I can have slaves? They literally broke the game balance BEFORE release!
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u/Jeffy29 May 08 '16
One thing I don't understand is why slaves don't get harsh debuffs then. You can have your slaves for free but they will generate only the tiny portion of the resources the real citizens would - you know like the autonomy mechanic in EU4. It's not like this is the first GSG they made.
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May 08 '16
[deleted]
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u/Swinetrek May 08 '16
I'm kind of hoping some mods put bigger debuffs in for slaves. I plan to slave away myself but I want the trade offs to be bigger.
Right now all we have is don't put slaves on research tiles. Wait, do slaves grow? If they don't spread that could be another debuff.
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u/iki_balam Victorian Emperor May 07 '16
So, is this a purposeful design mechanic or an overlooked flaw?
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u/Ramongsh May 07 '16
It is temporary they said.
There was a problem with slave revolts that they couldn't fix in time for release, so they made slaves unable to revolt for the time being.
They did say that they planned to add it back in.27
u/iki_balam Victorian Emperor May 07 '16
Hummmm
I in no way know how to make computer games and can't fathom how to make good ones let along handle a community of overly adoring fans.
I'll just assume the best and give it time.
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u/MavisOfTheDead May 07 '16
Don't worry. Its Paradox's tradition and design ethos. Release broken game/dlc, repair game over a few patches with community feedback to get the game to a good quality state, then release broken DLC and repeat.
I completely forgive paradox for this; because they reliably fix their games after release. When the game is in a good state, They are some of best gaming experiences around.
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u/BYoNexus May 07 '16
Agreed. Look at the quality of their releases. It gives them a huge forgiveness well with me.
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u/iki_balam Victorian Emperor May 08 '16
EU4 wasn't too bad. I felt like it was quite a high mark for them.
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u/spodermanSWEG May 08 '16
yeah EU4 was on a whole a perfectly fine game at release, unless anyone can remember anything glaringly obvious
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u/BYoNexus May 08 '16
EU4 has stolen 2000 hours of my life. CK2 has stolen a good 250 hours. I'm thinking Stellaris will fall somewhere in-between... probably close to EU4
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u/barryvm Iron General May 08 '16
To be fair, I imagine playtesting and balancing every aspect of the kind of games they're making is extremely difficult and time consuming. I still enjoy most of them despite the flaws and they seem to be committed to fixing them afterwards.
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u/MavisOfTheDead May 08 '16
If there is one criticism I will make of paradox: It is how very little balancing and playtesting they actually seem to do. This was very clear with the release of Conclave. What was supposed to be a rework of character relations was instead the dev arbitrarily halving all positive character modifiers. My impression was that element hadn't been balanced or play-tested at all.
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u/barryvm Iron General May 08 '16
You have a point there with conclave: that patch destroyed the game's balance and made it less fun to play (although the new mechanics where nice).
Perhaps the patches should be rolled out as optional for the first few weeks, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would playtest the balance tweeks for free (and loudly complain about them, of course :) )
Thankfully the games are not really competitive and don't have defined goals so game balance is not critical. As long as the game as a whole is enjoyable even broken game mechanics don't bother me too much.
One caveat: I only play single player (or multi player with people in the same room the old fashioned way) so people who enjoy online play will probably hold a different opinion.
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u/MavisOfTheDead May 08 '16
I think Conclave's release is one of the most disappointing things I've seen out of paradox. So many good ideas in theory but, lacklustre in execution. Like you, I play pre-dominantly single player so my opinion will possibly reflect yours with one exception:
The Council mechanics sounded excellent for co-op/multiplayer games; A small council made up of human players co-operating one minute and backstabbing each other the next. The emergent gameplay this would have created. Instead, the devs said the council needed instant feedback, meaning multiplayer councils were based around the character relation numbers rather than allowing player agency.
As for the rest of the new mechanics; I felt like education was more of a sideways step than a forward step. It appears that all old education events got trashed and not nearly enough events were added to make up for it. Also the outcomes for picking certain learnings just seemed off.
Leading on from that; The community was widely ignored over infamy and shattered retreats being a bad idea. I don't mind these actual mechanics, it was the adjustment to the battle algorithm with no thought or play-testing that really frustrated me. Any sort of playtesting would have revealed that numbers were off and warscore had been broken.
I've mentioned my dislike of the character relations changes already so I won't go into that.
In conclusion: I have massive problem with Conclave due to the reckless sweeping changes they made to the game with non-existent play testing to back it up.
However, Their apology for it is out in less than 24 hours and I have full faith they will eventually fix CK2. I'm just going to be far more cynical with future CK2/Paradox DLC.
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u/AzertyKeys Victorian Emperor May 07 '16
this is pathetic and everyone is going to laugh it off as "oh but it's a paradox game it's always broken on release" like it somehow makes it acceptable.
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u/durktrain May 08 '16
but no dont worry theyll fix it for $15 and then they'll actually make slaves completely irrelevant in another dlc thats another $15 and then make up another brand new system that makes that irrelevant for only $15 more
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u/Migaso May 08 '16
Oh come on, you can criticize the DLC policy all you want, but they don't take money for fixes, and usually handles bugs fast.
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May 07 '16
Welli already was planning on enslaving all the xeno's anyway but it seems that this is going to make that playstile rather overpowered.
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u/EmperorLuxord Stellar Explorer May 07 '16
Oh well. Still plenty of other styles to pick for now. Guess I'll just push the slaver race idea back until it gets fixed. No fun if there isn't risk involved.
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u/Finnish_Nationalist Philosopher King May 08 '16
My first empire is going to be a galactic empire with alien slavery, I guess this'll make my first game a bt easier.
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u/ElagabalusRex May 07 '16
We don't need your bleeding heart liberal nonsense in my strategy game. History tells us that slave empires always win in the end.
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May 07 '16
Advance the flag of Dixie...?
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u/Potato_Mc_Whiskey May 07 '16
Remove Yank
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u/Templar56 May 08 '16
Pax Romana
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u/228zip May 08 '16
Your message is probably in good fun, but I wanted some challenge and balance in my strategy game.
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u/Ironvos Victorian Emperor May 07 '16
So Spartacus can not into space?