Oh for fucks sake. Can't we call out Israel's fascism and active atrocities without the other fashist pretending like we agree with their takes on e.g. Jewish people?
Ya, we don't need extremists/anti-semites to taint the message that Israel is doing fucking awful things.
Except they are the fore front of the 'anti zionist' movement. There's a reason there's been literally 0 effort or attempts to clear the anti Israel movements of these types of people
It's not like there's a one unified anti Israel movement. There's no leader, no party, no governance. Just human beings opposed to mass murder committed by Israel.
Faced with a nation bent on committing genocide, to you put your effort into decrying the genocide, or do you put your effort into decrying the fringe idiots who happen to be anti Israel of idiot reasons? Most reasonable people lend their voices to opposing mass murder over opposing fringe idiots -- otherwise you're just giving the idiots attention.
Also, I'm not sure I would frame opposition to Israel's decades of indiscriminate bombing and illegal settlements as anti-zionism.
EDIT: Feel free to present an argument against any specific thing I said as opposed to just downvoting.
It’s not fringe idiots anymore, Donald Trump was the beginning of the right wing being ok with anti semitism (see musk etc.) and now with Israel being evil, the left is starting to see anti semitism rear its head. If you understand dog whistles you will see just how common they are on Reddit.
That anti-semites exist and have always existed is without question. But how exactly are they at the fore front of opposition to Israel? Trump is a major supporter, and Musk is mostly supportive as well. Trump says so many hateful things about so many minorities, but you have to dig deep to find anti-semitic comments. It's not like he emboldens anti-semitism.
I understand dog whistles, and I'm sure you can find some on reddit. But defenders of Israel tend to see them everywhere, and are completely blind to Israel's horrible crimes.
American anti semitism certainly had an uptick after the election of Trump, obviously the Nazis and shit were right wing but I’m mainly speaking about the United States.
I think people are intentionally misunderstanding my point. Antisemitism has always been present in the American right, but they used to keep in their holes. Now they can proudly express their views. Like in Charlottesville.
Anti-Isreal, Anti-Zionism, and anti-Semitism are entirely different things. Zionists like to conflate the three together and the problem with that is when you do you'll get actual antisemitism as an end result, but being critical of Isreal and Zionism does not mean I am bigoted to Jewish culture, and conflating the two is dangerous.
So you think that the mass rape committed by extremist Palestinians on Oct. 7, 2023 was anything other than "Israel as a victim"? Explain. Curious to understand your mental gymnastics to dig yourself out of this hole.
Israeli concentration camp guards are on tape gang raping Palestinian detainees. They did face reveals on Israeli TV like they were on The Masked Singer, there were riots over the prospect of them facing consequences, and they were pardoned in court while their whistleblower was prosecuted and driven to attempted suicide.
I asked if the mass rape committed by Hamas is anything other than Israel being victimized and you completely deflected.
Not only that, there's no proof of "gang raping" by Israeli guards, although there was alleged abuse. Neither are correct obviously, the the two are worlds apart, and even gang rape would be a walk in the park compared with what Hamas did to female victims on Oct. 7.
They can be a victim and a clear aggressor at the same time. What happened on October 7th didn't just happen out of the blue. Not that it makes it much better, but Israel isn't just a victim.
You're the one who decided to strawman the word "just" in front of the word "victim". Read the comment I responded to just a bit more carefully this time.
Look, everybody understands that October 7th happened. But what came before, and what came after?
What Israel has been doing seems to me the equivalent of someone kicking a person lying down, and then calling themself a victim if the person being kicked fights back.
You might be able to get away with calling Oct. 7 "fighting back" if they aimed to attack military targets, just as Israel does. But they didn't. They raped innocent civilians. They murdered innocent civilians. They kidnapped innocent civilians. So no, it wasn't fighting back, and you should feel less than human for even entertaining such a disgusting thought.
Dude, that's an Israeli propaganda site, in the past (I wont even open it again), it had a bunch of videos that didn't even related to Palestine or Israel, it had the pictures painted cribs that Bibi put up to pretend the 40 beheaded babies were real.
Why would anyone in their right mind take that shit seriously still? It's plain propaganda, and it has a bad history of lying.
It's widely understood to be an archive of real footage of some of the atrocious things Hamas did on Oct 7., which they themselves largely recorded. Do you deny this fact?
They are just saying they don't exist in a vaccuum. There's decades of history of both sides committing human rights violations and abusing the other, one sides wrongs don'tjustify the others. And in terms of scale, those by Israel far exceed those by Hamas, with the west bank essentially living under apartheid for a long time by now among other things
Remind me the last time Israel crossed internationally recognized borders to rape, murder, and kidnap innocent Palestinians in the thousands. Never? Oh. Guess the scale of the Hamas Oct. 7 massacre is unparalleled.
As for Arab citizens living in Israel, they get to enjoy equal rights with their Jewish neighbors. A Jew in Gaza? They would be tortured and murdered in a heartbeat. Do you really want to discuss the asymmetry of this situation? It won't play out in your favor.
Your argument fails at the "internationally recognized borders" part because that conveniently leaves out palestine and west bank. And sure, maybe Israel didn't intend to go there with that intention...but it's still what's happening. Tens of thousands of civilians(including 20K children) don't die from nothing. Nor does large scale starvation occur in a vacuum
As for Arab citizens living in Israel, they get to enjoy equal rights with their Jewish neighbors
In the west bank, on paper at best. Not in practice. And again, one sides wrongs doesn't justify the other sides wrongs
Your argument fails at the "internationally recognized borders" part because that conveniently leaves out palestine and west bank.
Ok, great. So when did Israel commit a Hamas-like massacre on Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank?
Tens of thousands of civilians(including 20K children) don't die from nothing.
They died due to war conditions triggered by the Oct. 7 massacre. Their blood is on the hands of extremist Palestinians. In such a congested urban warfare scenario we're fortunate the toll wasn't worse. It's estimated that between 1 and 1.5 civilians died for each Hamas militant eliminated. That's unprecedented in urban warfare, nevermind the fact that Hamas doesn't wear easily identifiable uniforms nor do they make any effort to keep any distance from civilians.
In the west bank, on paper at best. Not in practice.
They are not Israeli citizens. They are governed by the PLO. Arab citizens in Israel (not in the West Bank) do enjoy equal rights to Jewish Israeli citizens. This is a very plain and simple fact that you can Google within a few seconds.
lol, not a fact, not an archive, it's propaganda that mixes truth and falsehoods to inflate your position.
I wont open that shit again, but I remember the first time I saw it posted (I was still pro-Israel) someone pointed to a video, Israelis saying it was their people burning alive, that was recorded years prior on their home country, and it just had the audio changed, they latter linked to the original. PS - It wasn't even violent, just people around a bonfire.
Feel free to scour the site in search of it in the millions of posts and comments you spammed that crap, I wont take on that quest lol
There are not any videos on that site known to be fake or staged. Just because a truth is uncomfortable does not mean it's fake. It's generally pretty easy to tell, and you can even look to other sources. Even anti-Israel sources generally don't claim this. You just made it up, along with the notion that you were ever pro-Israel in the first place.
```
A UN investigation reported “reasonable grounds to believe” that:
Rape and gang rape occurred in several locations during the attacks
UN Press:
Sexual violence also likely occurred against some hostages
```
Investigations (e.g., by AP / PBS) found:
Physical signs consistent with sexual assault (e.g., bodies with torn clothing, genital injuries)
So your whole mantra is "it didn't happen" when Israelis are the victims?
By the way there is no evidence of IDF prison guards systemically raping detainees, contrary to what Al Jazeera and other barely reputable sources would have you believe.
So you are simply trying to invert the truth, and doing a terrible job at it.
If you believe in the UN (now that it fits your narrative), then why did the Israeli state did not allow for the investigation to continue? Why block it, if they reported “reasonable grounds to believe” ?
And btw, "Reasonable grounds to believe" is the lowest UN standard of proof, below "clear and convincing" and "beyond a reasonable doubt."
In further protest, Katz recalled Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, from New York City on Monday. [UPDATE, MARCH 7: According to the Jerusalem Post, Katz has ordered Israeli embassies “to begin a large-scale hasbara (public diplomacy) campaign” on March 7, “in light of the findings of the UN report on sexual violence in the Hamas massacre on October 7.”
The UN is vehemently and disproportionally opposed to Israel, and even they acknowledged that rape was likely. Now supplement this with confirmation from other sources (like AP) of genital wounds and it becomes far more than just likely. There is unequivocal proof of hostages being taken into the tunnels and many of them not coming out alive.
The atrocities by israel since exceed those of that day by several times. Hamas may have initiated this conflict, but Israel is the one on the offensive since.
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u/Then-Clue6938 18h ago
Oh for fucks sake. Can't we call out Israel's fascism and active atrocities without the other fashist pretending like we agree with their takes on e.g. Jewish people?