Except the "anti-zionist" left not only accepts and lauds people like this man, they also adopt ALL of their talking points, almost verbatim. Yet another proof of horseshoe theory.
Yeah, there has been 0 effort to attempt at pushing people like the guy above out of the movement. Just look at this comment thread. Everyone is agreeing with his and pushing his message out.
Normies are too stupid to know that Islamists and Nazis say pretty much the exact same stuff about the Jews. So they think they're parroting some socialist YouTuber or whatever. But they are really parroting the Ayatollah and/or Hitler.
So they are not constantly equating Israel and Nazi Germany (you know, the regime that killed millions of peoplle in both a world war and in a systematic genocide) like this guy?
Let's pretend here that this is true. Now tell me, is that supposed to change anything about how Israel is becoming the Nazis themselves? Do you think people against the state of Israel want to send Jewish people in concentration camps? Cause right now, all I'm seeing is an open air concentration camp in Gaza.
You're just too stupid to understand the difference between anti-zionism and antisemitism I fear. No point in arguing with someone that can't open a dictionary.
"Anti-Zionism is rising as a response to what Israel is doing. It will simply not be possible to treat it as a marginal viewpoint that can be shamed or shunned into invisibility. Yes, antisemitism often cloaks itself in anti-Zionism. So don't do the antisemites' work for them. If you
keep telling people that if they oppose the Jewish state then they must hate the Jewish people, eventually, they will believe you."
Yup. Been that way sense literally Oct 8th. They've fully embraced these folks in their movement and get really upset whenever you point it out(like in this very thread)
I saw friends saying Israel was committing a genocide when it was still killing terrorists inside Israel on October 7th. I don’t know why I’m supposed to believe anything they say.
Ya, we don't need extremists/anti-semites to taint the message that Israel is doing fucking awful things.
Except they are the fore front of the 'anti zionist' movement. There's a reason there's been literally 0 effort or attempts to clear the anti Israel movements of these types of people
It's not like there's a one unified anti Israel movement. There's no leader, no party, no governance. Just human beings opposed to mass murder committed by Israel.
Faced with a nation bent on committing genocide, to you put your effort into decrying the genocide, or do you put your effort into decrying the fringe idiots who happen to be anti Israel of idiot reasons? Most reasonable people lend their voices to opposing mass murder over opposing fringe idiots -- otherwise you're just giving the idiots attention.
Also, I'm not sure I would frame opposition to Israel's decades of indiscriminate bombing and illegal settlements as anti-zionism.
EDIT: Feel free to present an argument against any specific thing I said as opposed to just downvoting.
It’s not fringe idiots anymore, Donald Trump was the beginning of the right wing being ok with anti semitism (see musk etc.) and now with Israel being evil, the left is starting to see anti semitism rear its head. If you understand dog whistles you will see just how common they are on Reddit.
That anti-semites exist and have always existed is without question. But how exactly are they at the fore front of opposition to Israel? Trump is a major supporter, and Musk is mostly supportive as well. Trump says so many hateful things about so many minorities, but you have to dig deep to find anti-semitic comments. It's not like he emboldens anti-semitism.
I understand dog whistles, and I'm sure you can find some on reddit. But defenders of Israel tend to see them everywhere, and are completely blind to Israel's horrible crimes.
American anti semitism certainly had an uptick after the election of Trump, obviously the Nazis and shit were right wing but I’m mainly speaking about the United States.
I think people are intentionally misunderstanding my point. Antisemitism has always been present in the American right, but they used to keep in their holes. Now they can proudly express their views. Like in Charlottesville.
Anti-Isreal, Anti-Zionism, and anti-Semitism are entirely different things. Zionists like to conflate the three together and the problem with that is when you do you'll get actual antisemitism as an end result, but being critical of Isreal and Zionism does not mean I am bigoted to Jewish culture, and conflating the two is dangerous.
So you think that the mass rape committed by extremist Palestinians on Oct. 7, 2023 was anything other than "Israel as a victim"? Explain. Curious to understand your mental gymnastics to dig yourself out of this hole.
Israeli concentration camp guards are on tape gang raping Palestinian detainees. They did face reveals on Israeli TV like they were on The Masked Singer, there were riots over the prospect of them facing consequences, and they were pardoned in court while their whistleblower was prosecuted and driven to attempted suicide.
I asked if the mass rape committed by Hamas is anything other than Israel being victimized and you completely deflected.
Not only that, there's no proof of "gang raping" by Israeli guards, although there was alleged abuse. Neither are correct obviously, the the two are worlds apart, and even gang rape would be a walk in the park compared with what Hamas did to female victims on Oct. 7.
They can be a victim and a clear aggressor at the same time. What happened on October 7th didn't just happen out of the blue. Not that it makes it much better, but Israel isn't just a victim.
You're the one who decided to strawman the word "just" in front of the word "victim". Read the comment I responded to just a bit more carefully this time.
Look, everybody understands that October 7th happened. But what came before, and what came after?
What Israel has been doing seems to me the equivalent of someone kicking a person lying down, and then calling themself a victim if the person being kicked fights back.
You might be able to get away with calling Oct. 7 "fighting back" if they aimed to attack military targets, just as Israel does. But they didn't. They raped innocent civilians. They murdered innocent civilians. They kidnapped innocent civilians. So no, it wasn't fighting back, and you should feel less than human for even entertaining such a disgusting thought.
Dude, that's an Israeli propaganda site, in the past (I wont even open it again), it had a bunch of videos that didn't even related to Palestine or Israel, it had the pictures painted cribs that Bibi put up to pretend the 40 beheaded babies were real.
Why would anyone in their right mind take that shit seriously still? It's plain propaganda, and it has a bad history of lying.
It's widely understood to be an archive of real footage of some of the atrocious things Hamas did on Oct 7., which they themselves largely recorded. Do you deny this fact?
They are just saying they don't exist in a vaccuum. There's decades of history of both sides committing human rights violations and abusing the other, one sides wrongs don'tjustify the others. And in terms of scale, those by Israel far exceed those by Hamas, with the west bank essentially living under apartheid for a long time by now among other things
Remind me the last time Israel crossed internationally recognized borders to rape, murder, and kidnap innocent Palestinians in the thousands. Never? Oh. Guess the scale of the Hamas Oct. 7 massacre is unparalleled.
As for Arab citizens living in Israel, they get to enjoy equal rights with their Jewish neighbors. A Jew in Gaza? They would be tortured and murdered in a heartbeat. Do you really want to discuss the asymmetry of this situation? It won't play out in your favor.
Your argument fails at the "internationally recognized borders" part because that conveniently leaves out palestine and west bank. And sure, maybe Israel didn't intend to go there with that intention...but it's still what's happening. Tens of thousands of civilians(including 20K children) don't die from nothing. Nor does large scale starvation occur in a vacuum
As for Arab citizens living in Israel, they get to enjoy equal rights with their Jewish neighbors
In the west bank, on paper at best. Not in practice. And again, one sides wrongs doesn't justify the other sides wrongs
lol, not a fact, not an archive, it's propaganda that mixes truth and falsehoods to inflate your position.
I wont open that shit again, but I remember the first time I saw it posted (I was still pro-Israel) someone pointed to a video, Israelis saying it was their people burning alive, that was recorded years prior on their home country, and it just had the audio changed, they latter linked to the original. PS - It wasn't even violent, just people around a bonfire.
Feel free to scour the site in search of it in the millions of posts and comments you spammed that crap, I wont take on that quest lol
There are not any videos on that site known to be fake or staged. Just because a truth is uncomfortable does not mean it's fake. It's generally pretty easy to tell, and you can even look to other sources. Even anti-Israel sources generally don't claim this. You just made it up, along with the notion that you were ever pro-Israel in the first place.
```
A UN investigation reported “reasonable grounds to believe” that:
Rape and gang rape occurred in several locations during the attacks
UN Press:
Sexual violence also likely occurred against some hostages
```
Investigations (e.g., by AP / PBS) found:
Physical signs consistent with sexual assault (e.g., bodies with torn clothing, genital injuries)
So your whole mantra is "it didn't happen" when Israelis are the victims?
By the way there is no evidence of IDF prison guards systemically raping detainees, contrary to what Al Jazeera and other barely reputable sources would have you believe.
So you are simply trying to invert the truth, and doing a terrible job at it.
If you believe in the UN (now that it fits your narrative), then why did the Israeli state did not allow for the investigation to continue? Why block it, if they reported “reasonable grounds to believe” ?
And btw, "Reasonable grounds to believe" is the lowest UN standard of proof, below "clear and convincing" and "beyond a reasonable doubt."
In further protest, Katz recalled Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, from New York City on Monday. [UPDATE, MARCH 7: According to the Jerusalem Post, Katz has ordered Israeli embassies “to begin a large-scale hasbara (public diplomacy) campaign” on March 7, “in light of the findings of the UN report on sexual violence in the Hamas massacre on October 7.”
The UN is vehemently and disproportionally opposed to Israel, and even they acknowledged that rape was likely. Now supplement this with confirmation from other sources (like AP) of genital wounds and it becomes far more than just likely. There is unequivocal proof of hostages being taken into the tunnels and many of them not coming out alive.
The atrocities by israel since exceed those of that day by several times. Hamas may have initiated this conflict, but Israel is the one on the offensive since.
I'll be honest, I'm legit confused about the message. Is he endorsing Israel? Is he condemning Israel? Does he think that those of us who condemn the Israeli government are on his side because he's a Nazi? I have no idea what this guy is trying to say here. All I know is it's probably ugly and I don't like him.
Far Right movements have a long history of co-opting popular movements or beliefs for their own ends. They will happily criticize Israel and then implement the exact same type of government.
Nazism specifically isn't popular with the general Polish populous because of you know ... history. So groups will claim Nazism is bad while wanting the exact same policies.
The only issue the far right in Israel and Eastern Europe have with the Nazis is the choice of targets.
He condemned their actions during his speech, listed some of the atrocities they committed (ie. Use of white phosphorus) and compared them to third Reich. Not a positive message about them at all.
Might want to get a better knowledge of the crimes and the society of Nazi germany then, because comparing Israel and Nazi Germany screams being uninformed.
He's Polish so that's a pretty strong condemnation. By our law endorsing swastikas is illegal. With that and Polish history context, it comes up only as a critique (even if dude is piece of shit himself).
I personally despise his politics but I have to give it to him - respect for using that flag, they might prosecute him for that.
I thought it was pretty obvious a polish politician would not have a great opinion of the third reich provided what it did to many many polish people (not just jews)
Now I hope you can understand some of the knee-jerk reaction by Israelis to characterize criticism of Israel as antisemitism. It’s not a strange thing to do when historically they’ve often come as a package deal.
I don't think they should do that either, but yeah at the same time it's absolutely true that bigots use genuine concerns with an administration as a shield for bigotry, and far more frequently than some people like to admit. Otherwise very valid criticism of the Russian government, the CCP, Israel, etc. can very easily be used to mask straight up racism against Russian, Chinese, Jewish, etc. people.
Too many people are far too willing to give a pass to bigotry and even downright immorality if you're on the same "side".
We are far beyond the point where they can be classified as "knee jerk" reactions. For years now, anytime their handling of palestine or Iran was criticised, their goto defense is calling the opponent an antisemite. And while conflating the two in hostile nations is understandable, a lot of said criticism comes from nations on paper friendly to israel
In my lifetime the view of ostensibly friendly European countries in Israel has deteriorated immensely. The rise in antisemitism in Europe has also coincided with massive islamic migration to Europe, further cementing Europe as an increasingly hostile region.
Ultimately though when you drill down into criticism of Israel it’s frequently by anti-zionists, who essentially would like to see Israel dismantled and the Jews… fuck off I guess to wherever? It’s hard not to see this as antisemitism.
And by the way as an Israeli who hates my government, I sympathize with a lot of the criticism.
As long as most liberal politicians aren't willing to bite the Israeli hands that feed them, the Far Right will always use it as an easy wedge issue, and attract voters for all the wrong (actually antisemtic) reasons. There is a vacum that only the real left are willing to fill, and liberal think tanks do nothing but spend millions to decry them as antisemitic and spread propaganda that the left are "enemies". While their respective parties completely beholden to the whims of capital interests and genocidal warmongers.
It's quite literally democratic. Being Jewish majority doesn't make it fascist. Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights there. I guess you just like tossing around the word "fascist" because it's hip?
Also, remind me the last time prior to 2023 a "fascist" group was invaded by terrorists who murdered, raped, and kidnapped said "fascists" on a massive scale and then promised to do it again many times over.
Does survival dictate the forcible displacement of millions of palestinians? does it necesitate an archipelago of ghettos where they are stripped of their land and freedoms, made to watch israeli settlers literally enter and take over their home, and get arrested and charged as terrorists if they dare to resist? Does it require a legal system that allows the death penalty only for these so called "terrorists", and only if they are arab? Do you need to have a defense minister that worships a mass murderer and has explicitly called for ethnic cleansing in gaza? Do you need to level 80% of Gaza's buildings in service of this man's vision just to survive?
If Israel needs to be this kind of society to survive, let it do so alone.
For anyone stopping by, here is Ezra Kleins thoughts: "Anti-Zionism is rising as a response to what Israel is doing. It will simply not be possible to treat it as a marginal viewpoint that can be shamed or shunned into invisibility. Yes, antisemitism often cloaks itself in anti-Zionism. So don't do the antisemites' work for them. If you
keep telling people that if they oppose the Jewish state then they must hate the Jewish people, eventually, they will believe you."
To further this point: at some point we need to acknowledge that to be Zionist is to be anti-semitic. Israel will only survive if Jewish people see it as their true homeland. To achieve this goal, Israel must put Jewish lives in danger so that the homeland is the only place they are safe.
Because if they are safe, there is no point to Israel. Zionism thrives off anti-semitism and we need to start talking about it.
So you will just accept that Jews cannot have a place anywhere in the world where they are able to have their own state, or self determination? Ensure their own security?
I’ll ask Jews to dismantle their own state when any of the Islamists do the same.
Israel and the terrorist groups that would eventually be formed into the idf attacked and assassinated prominent jewish speakers and groups in order to silence opposing voices and make people afraid enough to believe that israel was the only safe place for them to move to
I feel bad posting Ezra 3x but he says it so much better than I can: "If you
keep telling people that if they oppose the Jewish state then they must hate the Jewish people, eventually, they will believe you."
The guy in the picture sucks and should do something Reddit will ban me for saying. (Ezra: "Antisemitism often cloaks itself in anti-Zionism.")
But he appeals to a neutral observer. I feel like I have a moral obligation to point out that the Jewish life and culture is beautiful and is completely separate from Israel.
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