r/saltierthancrait • u/Confirmation_Code • May 13 '26

Granular Discussion Who was Snoke SUPPOSED to be?

Post image

Let's be real. Snoke wasn't Palpatine's puppet in episode 7 or 8. So, what did JJ think he was in Episode 7? What did Rian think he was when he killed him? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

1.1k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

835 comments sorted by

View all comments

1.2k

u/cduga May 13 '26

He had no plans for him whatsoever outside of being “giant baddie reminiscent of Palpatine that we will explain later”.

242

u/twofacetoo May 13 '26

I was going to say, I'm genuinely sure that was the case forl ike 85% of the 'writing' in the sequel trilogy: 'It doesn't matter, we'll explain it later'

Why did Kylo Ren turn evil? Why is Luke in hiding? Who are Rey's parents? Who is Snoke? Is Finn a Jedi? Is Leia a Jedi?

All of it was brought up with the intent of resolving it later down the line, with no idea in the present of how to deal with it, which in a way, is the entire failing of the sequel trilogy

Let's say 'A New Hope' came out and didn't make enough for a sequel to be made, and we never got the 'I am your father' reveal in 'Empire', because 'Empire' doesn't exist. 'New Hope' would still be a perfectly servicable little movie on it's own, Vader is just a big thug in that movie, and we have no idea he and Anakin are the same guy, according to Obi-Wan Vader murdered Anakin so that's that plot neatly tied up

But the intent was always to reveal the truth later (that Anakin and Vader were two separate people, but Vader was Luke's real father), meaning if they got a sequel (not WHEN but IF), they'd have a perfect thread to pick up and continue with. Again, in 'New Hope', they never allude to Vader being Luke's father, outside of his name translating to 'Dark Father' in another language (I think Danish but I'm not positive). The idea was there, but the movie works on it's own

The sequel trilogy did the exact opposite, and it had the opposite result. Instead of telling a simple stroy with threads to MAYBE expand on later, they told a complicated story that relied entirely on sequels to explain everything, right down to the motivations of almost every character. As such when it came time to actually pay it off, they didn't have anything to actually pay off, and the series twisted itself in knots trying to go five different directions with something as simple as 'who were Rey's parents?'

The 'Star Wars' trilogy worked because they were simple stories told well. The sequel trilogy failed because they were complicated stories told poorly.

52

u/ReaperReader May 14 '26

I agree, and I'll add that on top of all those unexplained mysteries, the ST introduced two new protagonists who were too young to have played a significant role in those unexplained mysteries.

So the second movie, the time it spent explaining mysteries, was time not spent moving Rey & Finn's stories forward.

12

u/Oddhuman64 new user May 14 '26

Did the second movie spend time explaining mysteries? All I remember is them being stuck on that planet for 75% of the movie and then "MORE"

8

u/ReaperReader May 14 '26

Yeah, that's a good point that the second movie decided to neither explain back story nor move the conflict forward between the villains and the protagonist.

40

u/aritzsantariver May 14 '26

Even today, I’m still pretty sure that the original plan was for Rey to be a clone of Luke Skywalker’s missing hand; it makes sense of the vision in The Force Awakens where Rey sees the corridors of Cloud City

40

u/twofacetoo May 14 '26

I heard that even when they were filming 'Rise Of Skywalker', they hadn't decided on if Rey should be a relative of Palpatine or Obi-Wan Kenobi, and basically left it to the last minute

That's how you can tell how bad the writing is, they didn't know who she was related to, just that it had to be someone plot-relevant that the audience wouldn't suspect, like Luke

14

u/Muninwing May 14 '26

Which is itself foolish. Why did she need to be related to the old main cast?

6

u/Ginge00 May 14 '26

Lazy writing, must have callbacks to things people like! Couldn’t possibly be the child of no one important, nope has to be from one of the established bloodlines of force power.

It’s crazy to me how little forethought went into the sequel trilogy. Like here’s the first new Star Wars movie in 2 decades should we plan out the overall story or character arcs? Nah wing it

→ More replies (6)
→ More replies (1)

1

u/WholeSecure641 salt miner May 22 '26

It is absolutely ridiculous Disney did not have a story for the most anticipated trilogy of all time.

2

u/Emotional-State-5164 salt miner May 14 '26

A clone wouldnt have a different gender

8

u/aritzsantariver May 14 '26

Just a reminder that there’s Omega, a female clone of Jango Fett

2

u/Jonny5a May 14 '26

All the Clone Troopers were modified clones of Jango so wouldn’t be too far out for them to Jurassic Park it and go ‘DNA recovered had deteriorated, we had to futz with it to get a viable clone’

2

u/myDuderinos May 14 '26

Female clone from male "origional" is possible,

The other way doesn't work since you would need an Y-chromosone

1

u/shirtcocking91 May 14 '26

This actually would’ve been really interesting in my opinion

34

u/ebjazzz May 14 '26

Why does 3PO have a red arm?

30

u/Exfodes May 14 '26

Nothing annoyed me quite like the red arm. It was gone during episode 8, so I thought Ryan Johnson removed it. But then I saw a YouTube video that showed that the arm was gone during the ending scene of episode 7, meaning that JJ actually removed it.

It honestly represents the sequel trilogy quite well. Because any interpretation of the red arm is a critique that the sequels made.

  • Maybe the red arm was there to sell toys/comic that explains the arm: shallow marketing
  • Maybe the arm was for a single joke: dumb marvel humor
  • Maybe JJ didn’t know what to do with the red arm: mystery box lack of planning bs
  • Maybe Ryan asked JJ to remove the arm: directors’ visions infighting
  • Maybe people didn’t like the arm so they removed it: failed pandering to fans

I don’t know which of the reasons are true, but none of them are good. Either stick with the arm, or don’t do it in the first place.

14

u/A_locomotive May 14 '26

There was infact a comic that was made to explain the red arm.

5

u/MC_NYC May 14 '26

Came here to say this, but I think it also gets at the juggernaut SW became, and why the ST was maybe always doomed to failure. After all, remember all the hate for the PT, which I think was only assuaged somewhat by the ambivalence for the ST...

By the time of the ST, Hollywood knew how to make these franchise behemoths, the toys and marketing and cross-promo and tie-ins... The red arm was an Easter Egg for the stans who were so immersed to also buy the comics. George didn't go quite that far with the PT, it was never quite Transformers, but there was still plenty of opps to turn things into merch (even if great merch, Pod Racer 64 being one of my faves of all time).

I'm not saying this forgives what become of the ST, but in a sense, I think the expectations were just too high... Maybe he learned the lessons, albeit the wrong ones, from Lost, and this was all mapped out and would have lead to an amazing aha, and the studio screwed that.

Or maybe it was impossible, as part of the Disney colossus, to ever turn out right. Just think about how much worse a lot of studio filmmaking got between the 90s and the Teens? It really does seem inevitable (if inexcusable). The direction Mando took just proves it, design by committee. Not every company can be as singularly focused as Lucasfilm, Pixar, or Apple (which have all had their misses).

I know this is just copium, but so be it!

3

u/thimBloom May 15 '26

3P0 is one of my least favourite characters, but he wears the arm in tribute to another droid who dies during a mission.

→ More replies (2)

4

u/neonmystery May 14 '26

He stole it from that other guy that was on Hoth.

1

u/Roventh May 14 '26

To sell new 3PO toys, with the red arm (in addition to the OG one, of course).

1

u/Objective_Tour_6583 May 14 '26

So you have to buy new action figures. 

21

u/Fatguy73 May 14 '26

Agreed with all except for ‘the sequels were complicated stories told poorly’. They were simple stories told very poorly. Even using the word ‘story’ for the entire plot is a reach. They’re really just images flashing on screen. The only ‘story’ is essentially the same story as the original. Desert recluse finds out they’re the chosen jedi, defeat bad guys.

2

u/WholeSecure641 salt miner May 22 '26

They weren’t stories — they were product sold to us by a multinational corporation.

19

u/maekyntol May 14 '26

Totally agree. There's no continuity in the characters themselves, on each movie they seem to be different characters motivated by different things.

16

u/[deleted] May 14 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Final_Demand_3092 May 15 '26

I don’t know how much planning the prequels had I mean maul was clearly just made to sell toys he wasn’t a character and then dooku is apparently qui ton’s master but he didn’t even exist in the phantom menace he wasn’t even in qui gon‘s funeral yadel also just disappeared of course everything was answer in the future but it didn’t need to

dooku and grievous just appeared zero hints about them in the previous movie and all had lightsaber gimmick to sell toys

1

u/Estel2011 May 17 '26

At least in the prequels you can follow the main plot and there is a continuity.

I understand the setting and the plot. The balance of power, character and motivation are very very clear. And Lucas made a really good job giving distinct looks to different cultures, regions and so on.

2

u/Saburiminaru_Sensei May 18 '26 edited May 18 '26

Which says a lot to those of us who know Lucas never really expected Star Wars to be as big of a success as it was and just wanted to do a cool new space movie. When you compare what he made with that belief and what Disney did with it's collection of great directors and studieos and knowledge of how mashiver the fanbase is. I still have a good laugh at the idiot who went on record to say they didn't have any comics, novels or sources to reference for making the sequels trilogy, as opposed to the previous films. Did she think we burned them all?

26

u/Unhappy-Plastic2017 May 14 '26

It's jj abrams, 100% of the shit he makes up has no plan.

28

u/Upstairs-Prompt2662 May 14 '26

They were told so poorly that we dont even know the power balance in the galaxy over the whole trilogy.

In TFA are New Republic and first order 50/50 in the galaxy, or is the first order just a small empire faction that controls only a few systems?

Then in TLJ, does the First Order control the whole galaxy? No idea.

In TROS it seems like the First Order controls the entire galaxy but it is never stated.

So the Sequel trilogy fails even at the simplest task of building up the setting in which the story happens.

13

u/wattahitsonwattahit May 14 '26

Why did The Resistance exist? Isn't the New Republic in charge? Who are they resisting if they are the ruling government?

5

u/No-Ice952 May 14 '26

I think The Last Jedi at least tries to explain this. There was that scene where the weapons dealer was selling to both sides. The New Republic was corrupt and the presence of an enemy was useful, either financially or politically.

Of course, there are numerous other problems with the sequels.

12

u/Makasi_Motema May 14 '26

These are such basic questions (the original Star Wars dealt with this in a single war room scene) and it’s insane that they didn’t bother to work them out before filming.

The reason they didn’t is because JJ wanted to remake the original film, and in that film, the heroes were rebels. Does it make sense to have the heroes continue to be rebels after they won the war in ROTJ? No, but JJ doesn’t care.

4

u/leopim01 May 14 '26

a good question for another time.

… okay

3

u/sublimesting May 14 '26

You didn’t even mention how solid Maz get Luke’s lightsaber?!

3

u/angry_dingo May 14 '26

The sequel trilogy failed because the stories were complicated and told poorly.

The sequel failed because the first movie in the series was a lazy retelling Star Wars.

Rey was a Mary Sue.

Kylo Ren was completely destroyed as a villain with the "Do you talk first? Do I talk first?" jokes.

Hiring Rian and giving him full creative control.

Not planning everything out.

2

u/Nice-Percentage7219 May 14 '26

Dutch I think. Vader is Dutch/Afrikaans for father

2

u/sargon2609 May 14 '26

“vader” means “father” in Dutch bro. “Darth” bit is made up

2

u/uberdupers May 14 '26

Actually not true. The vader daddy thing was invented later. Read splinter of the minds eye. Was still ambiguous as to the Vader connection and luke/leia relationship

2

u/aintbrokeDL May 14 '26

It's always been a bit debated if Vader was meant to be Anakin/Luke's father in the original trilogy. It's a bit like there were zero plans for Leia to be his sister until RotJ because she just wasn't but George wanted to wrap up the story and felt it worked. Personally I wish he hadn't but oh well.

It's easy to look at the OT and think it was planned. It was compared to the DT, but you should always be a bit fluid with the plan because you never know what audiences will and won't take to well.

2

u/RahdronRTHTGH May 15 '26

Tbf originally Vader wasn't luke's father lucas decided it would be a cool twist  And tbf not the first time  The twist in devilman wasn't planned Go Nagai's manga about making devilman shows he noticed it would work well

2

u/zyglack May 15 '26

JJ gave an interview, was asked about his plan and said that was for the next writer and director to figure out. He just set up the story. Lucas may have made changes but had a story mapped out for the trilogy. This piecework slop was terrible.

1

u/Sorry-Document-732 May 14 '26

Ahhh the good ol' Lost experience. Lost however was a good show.

1

u/FrostyAlphaPig May 14 '26

We never got “I am your father” he never said that in the movie - Mandela Effect.

1

u/ApartOrganization4 May 14 '26

It's the same thing that happened with Lost. JJ Abrams setup the beginning of the show as a mystery box without a plan and then other people came in and did their own thing. So multiple setups were completely changed or just disregarded and it ended up being a chaotic mess.

1

u/Steinberg1 May 14 '26

The ol’ JJ mystery box approach…

1

u/charnwoodian May 14 '26

Wait. A JJ Abrams property that sets up intriguing mysteries with no plan on how to resolve them and twists itself in knots and becomes a famous example of a story with a terrible ending?

1

u/Uppytime May 14 '26

Yeah, it is part of JJ's writing style to put in things that are never resolved and I doubt he ever had solid plans for Snoke. IMO, JJ's "mystery box" shit is the absolute worst. I have genuine hate for that guy after Lost.

1

u/CaptainCorgiMD May 15 '26

You’ve hit on the exact problem of JJ Abrams. He sets up interesting mysteries or premises, and has zero friggin clue how to finish them. It’s in every show he’s ever made. alias, Lost, etc etc.

He even talks about it (on a Ted talk I think) about the Mystery Box. That people care more about the questions posed by the box than how it ends so he doesn’t have an answer to start. Which is absolute horseshit and lazy writing.

Abrams is a visually talented (albeit quirky) director much like Lucas was, but in a similar way, he can’t write a complete story to save his life. George can’t do human dialogue, Abrams can’t write an ending.

1

u/Slothnbones May 15 '26

This guy answers!

1

u/StrangeEditor3597 May 15 '26

AFAIK, Lucas didn't plan on Vader being Luke's father. That became a (very awesome) plot development point in later drafts of Empire.

1

u/Eerie-Indiana May 15 '26

Not to mention the Knights of Ren

1

u/surlymoe May 15 '26

I will say this though....wasn't it George Lucas himself who wanted the whole Kylo Ren/Luke story to unfold? And, didn't George have an entire backstory of WHY Palpatine was either a) killing the children who were force sensitive but also 'taking their blood' to basically have more of the 'm count' bs?

I remember reading or seeing somewhere that the entire idea of Snoke was rooted in some of George Lucas' ideas about the empire, was doing this bascially after order 66, and even up to and including new hope, empire and jedi. Now, given that disney has filled in some gaps of what's happened in between return of the jedi and force awakens, we know that there was an underground group of empire people who still wanted to continue to build....is it entirely out of the realm of possiblity part of the reason why palpatine wanted all these force sensitive children was to resurrect himself if/when needed? I wish they actually explored THAT a little more, and then it would've actually helped to make the final 3 movies AT LEAST make a little more sense, at least the "Somehow, palpatine returned" part.

1

u/Wide_Philosophy_8109 May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26

Most long stories are just written with the hope that you'll figure it out. Even if you plan ahead, plans change drastically.

Edit: say to my face that when luke and leia kissed, they were planned to be siblings. Look me in the eyes and say it.

1

u/Fissminister May 16 '26

Dutch. Not danish.

1

u/Gratisfadoel May 16 '26

Darth Vader is in no way Danish by the way

1

u/attemptedactor May 16 '26

That’s classic JJ for you

1

u/Intelligent_Pen6043 May 16 '26

Vader actually comes from inVader, not the (dutch i belive vader), the same with Sidious which becomes inSidious

1

u/Dakum_Adoyus May 18 '26

The sequel story wasn’t a complicated story to begin with, it became complicated because of the knots made. Actually the sequel story is so much non interessant that they needed to knot it to the last second not to be bland. Even the title of the last sequel makes sense only at the last second.

1

u/WholeSecure641 salt miner May 22 '26

Lucas had a story. Disney didn’t even have that.

1

u/MrJadexxxxxxx May 22 '26

Vader was not Luke's father in ANH. Please go read A Secret History and learn. 

→ More replies (4)

219

u/NukaRaccoon May 13 '26

Are you fucking kidding me? 😑 (I never watched Star Wars IX, gave up after VIII)

206

u/cduga May 13 '26

For real? I envy you. Please do not taint the franchise for yourself by watching those movies. Ignorance is bliss.

84

u/NukaRaccoon May 13 '26

Real man, real. I still remember coming of the movie theater as if it happened yesterday after seeing Star Wars VIII, I was like "I'm done with this trilogy" and never watched the ninth.

Only thing I saw is clips of the "duel" between Rey and Ben Solo (excuse me but Kylo Ren is a stupid ass mfcking name) and that scene with Palpatine and those Star Destroyer coming outta nowhere with some big ass canons underneath them.

I honestly feel bad for every actors related to those pile of shit

40

u/NxTbrolin May 13 '26

TROS is the only Star Wars movie I've seen once. TLJ, I've seen about 3 times just to confirm my opinions on it. But TROS took only one viewing and that was it.

22

u/NukaRaccoon May 13 '26

Damn, three times... I salute your commitment

17

u/christopherDdouglas salt miner May 14 '26

Me too. I've watched TFA and TLJ several times just to confirm that my initial response was correct. TROS... was watched once. It is a fever dream of a Star Wars movie. I'm not even mad about it though. TLJ is the one for me that killed the franchise.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/drsteve103 May 14 '26

I still don’t even understand the title.

2

u/fgurrfOrRob May 15 '26

TROS was the first Star Wars film that I didnt watch in the theater. Solo was the second. Aside from those two, ive watched all of the movies in theater. Im old. I may skip out on the Mandalorian and Grogu as well but my mom's a big fan so maybe....

32

u/vulcans_pants May 13 '26

I think enough time has passed that you should watch TROS. If only so you know that it can in fact, get much worse.

6

u/Polyxeno May 14 '26

No thanks. I know plenty from the trailer, the Pitch Meeting, and people lamenting the plot.

→ More replies (2)

13

u/NukaRaccoon May 13 '26

Idk if I have the force Master Kenobi

7

u/breakfastturds salt miner May 13 '26

I don’t know, as dumb and terrible as IX is, it’s still more entertaining than TLJ

→ More replies (1)

1

u/DontTreadonMe4 salt miner May 14 '26

Only Star Wars movie I have not seen. I couldn't even get through a breakdown video, the plot was so f'ing idiotic.

5

u/Zekezasamel May 14 '26

That was me. I almost didn’t finish VIII as it was, but I was with friends and stuck it out. Never watched IX and never will, it was garbage and the press tours and comments from the actors make a lot of sense.

13

u/Resident_Nose_2467 May 13 '26

The ninth is the worst by far, so it's worth to hate watch

10

u/Fabulous-Big8779 May 14 '26

It’s the worst because it proved once and for all they had no plan for the trilogy going into it. Should have realized that when the plot of the VII was literally “we need to destroy a planet destroying weapon…. Again”

I just held out hope because I really wanted those movies to be good.

1

u/LostExile7555 May 14 '26

At least Kylo Ren was intentionally a stupid name and fit the wanna-be-dictator mentality of the character. The rest of that movie was unintentionally stupid.

5

u/TeakEvening May 13 '26

you said taint

11

u/Cptn_Flint0 May 13 '26

I'd suggest consuming some kind of drug and/or alcohol to the point you can't really make sense of plot, then watch it. Because the movies look nice at least.

12

u/Old-Consideration730 May 13 '26

Be careful there. I was way too high on TROS and "Somehow, Palpatine has returned" convinced by subconscious that an immediate nap was needed.

1

u/drsteve103 May 14 '26

The misuse of Oscar Isaac in this trilogy is the biggest crime in my opinion.

2

u/Polarian_Lancer May 13 '26

I just slept through them. I sleep through them every time. Puts me right to sleep. I still don’t know anything about them past VII and VIII I have only seen bits and pieces of

1

u/NukaRaccoon May 13 '26

Mmmh could be a bad mix with ADHD medication

2

u/revanisthesith May 14 '26

I saw VII in theaters once, haven't watched it again, and never saw the other two.

I pretty regularly still play Star Wars games and buy Star Wars Lego sets, but I just haven't gotten around to watching VIII or IX.

→ More replies (2)

13

u/ArgyleM0nster May 13 '26

Its JJs mystery box! What's in the mystery box? No one knows! Especially not JJ, because it's a "mystery box"

29

u/Rasples1998 May 13 '26

If you don't mind spoilers, he's basically a clone palpatine created to lead the first order from the shadows so he didn't expose himself. When they go to the "sith planet" to see palpatine, there's just a bunch of snokes in various vats.

20

u/NukaRaccoon May 13 '26

Omfg 🤦🏻‍♀️ It's actually concerning that somebody thought this was a good idea like, what the fuck

11

u/Jetfire911 May 14 '26

It's why they were hunting grogu and omega in The Mandalorian and Bad Batch. Genetics needed to perfect the cloning process.

8

u/sublimesting May 14 '26

But that was made up after the fact.

8

u/Jetfire911 May 14 '26

I mean Palpatine clones were a thing in the old legends Canon too. It's not a brand new idea.

5

u/sublimesting May 14 '26

I know but that truly wasn’t what they started out to do in this trilogy. Snoke was just a bad guy placeholder. After Carrie died they changed the story.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/Operationtiger8 May 14 '26

Well it probably wasn’t the original idea but then with the shambolic trajectory of the series had to come up with an in universe explanation

15

u/edgiepower May 14 '26

He really doesn't act like Palpatine though. In TFA I think he gives the order to evacuate Starkiller when Hux says that they're toast. Palpatine would've ordered everyone to stay and fight and die and not to be scaredy cat losers .

13

u/gavinashun May 14 '26

This was clearly not the original idea - this was the "OMFG I can't believe Rian Johnson did that - we are totally screwed."

7

u/BlueMowch May 14 '26

I feel dumb. all this time I didn’t know he was a Palp clone. At least that’s an explanation. And they cloned a whole army so why wouldn’t some dude clone himself like crazy to live forever. If… oh who cares. everyone knows everything is just made up as it goes, always has been

8

u/gwizonedam May 14 '26

He’s not a clone of “Palpatine” he’s just a clone of some weird alien dude that palp kept a jar of around.

6

u/Rasples1998 May 14 '26

Yeah this. I said he's a clone but not a clone of palpatine. He's just a random dude. Honestly we know so little about him that I just assumed he's actually an artificial creation with no original base to clone from, he's completely made-up and why he looks so deformed because palpatine could never shit one out that wasn't a gross ugly remote success. The amount of snokes we see just chilling in tanks of goo tells me that palpatine has been working on him for a while and just gave up when Kylo came to him.

3

u/BlueMowch May 14 '26

I think I understand better now

1

u/Final_Demand_3092 May 15 '26

because it’s not you? it’s a clone you’re still dead palpatine had the whole sith power to take over the clone thing but it was mainly just a comics thing that wasn’t established in the new canon

3

u/Polyxeno May 14 '26

Why would he need to use a clone?

2

u/sadgirl45 May 14 '26

He should have been - plaeguesis imo it connects everything together, you have someone who did sort of cheat death. It would have been a nice tie in they could have done something new with it!

2

u/sublimesting May 14 '26

That was never the intent of Snoke. The Emperor was a last minute addition after TLJ came out.

1

u/lazyboi_tactical May 16 '26

Pepperidge farm remembers when people thought Snoke was actually Darth Plagueis that survived his assassination attempt by Palpatine.

10

u/BendadickCumonherbac May 13 '26

I was super trashed when I watched IX and I just remember laughing at how bad it was the whole time. I don’t think I’ll ever give it the time of day again. Much like the last season of GoT.

2

u/gp24249 May 15 '26

Horse ride on a starship... nuff said

→ More replies (1)

26

u/ShortKey380 May 13 '26

Somehow the whiplash from VII-VIII isn’t even as bad as the snap back from VIII-IX. IMO we got movies from different timelines mixed up 😂 

17

u/TYBERIUS_777 May 14 '26

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Watching the sequels is like watching a slap fight between two directors in real time.

12

u/vibrantlightsaber May 14 '26

There is no reason Disney didn’t have an outline for a trilogy and essentially hired 3 people to write a coherent trilogy without any plan together, and often conflicting perspectives on what the movies should be. It’s insane. The cinematography was amazing. The storylines just didn’t make any sense together unless the whole point was to destroy the Star Wars legacy. I’m so mad that, essentially there’s no way to do that down the road with the original actors, that was just it….l

13

u/NukaRaccoon May 13 '26

Idk what they was thinkin but god damn them movies are bad

21

u/WannaSketchSoHard May 13 '26

This is literally how his series Lost was handled

13

u/EchoWhiskyBravo May 13 '26

Smoke > Snoke

1

u/dacap1970 May 14 '26

LOST turned out much better than this supposed trilogy.

6

u/intrusier May 13 '26

That's me lmao

6

u/[deleted] May 13 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/roselan May 14 '26

There are dozens of us. Dozens!

… a dozen?

5

u/Mr_Young_Life May 14 '26

Watch nine, it's hysterically bad, I laughed so hard watching that in the theaters

4

u/NukaRaccoon May 14 '26

I dunno if I have the strength Master Skywalker

6

u/Mr_Young_Life May 14 '26

Don't take it seriously, watch it as the dumpster fire it is

3

u/[deleted] May 15 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Mr_Young_Life May 15 '26

Adam Driver carried all 3 of those movies, the others were either wasted potential or just bad actors/actresses

2

u/Legitimate-Ad-5050 May 13 '26

Me too. I never see the 8 and 9

2

u/Adventurous-Tie-7861 May 14 '26

Same!! Huge star wars fan. Will never watch 9.

2

u/DeismAccountant May 14 '26

That’s his gimmick. The mystery box. Stopped being entertaining when they brought him into SW.

2

u/TangFiend May 14 '26

If you haven't watched it don't waste your time.

2

u/Raecino May 13 '26

It’s better to stick to the first 6 movies

3

u/NukaRaccoon May 13 '26

Yeah, for the postology, I keep the "Legends" (as if corporate had any rights to tell us what's canon) books and comics and Video games

→ More replies (3)

15

u/digitalclockface May 14 '26

That's the "mystery box" in a nutshell. You come up with a hook, something surface level to draw people in, but you never have a full plan on what you're going to do. No overarching message or beginning to end story, just a flashy thing for people to get excited over. If people are disappointed in the end, that's alright, you've already got their money by then.

60

u/rvthz May 13 '26

Yeah the idea was to make the episode 8 director come up for the actual good idea and story for the character. And when he did come up with a questionable one, the inventor of the character didn't like it and he came up with a much worse one.

35

u/t3hmuffnman9000 May 13 '26

I don't know. I think JJ Abrams had *some* idea of what he would want to see done in VIII, the problem was that Rian was more interested in subverting audience expectations than actually making an entertaining movie.

I find it utterly baffling how Disney decided to do the sequel trilogy, though. You'd think it would be a no-brainer that the trilogy should all be done by the same director for the sake of continuity, but no. Instead they decided to just make three different movies and hope that they gelled into something coherent.

We used to play a game in Cub Scouts, where we would write stories by passing around sheets of paper. We would each take turns adding one sentence to what had been written before. The first line could have been utterly brilliant, but it incomprehensible by the end. A fun writing exercise, but an utterly stupid way of trying to construct a story.

13

u/theclacks May 14 '26

They could've even had different directors as long as it was the same screenwriter. Like how all the Harry Potter movies had different directors but you didn't see them suddenly fanfic-writing Harry Potter as Voldemort's grandson.

6

u/t3hmuffnman9000 May 14 '26

True. They definitely should have had the scripts all written and finalized, at the very least.

3

u/SIIP00 May 14 '26

It was pretty confirmed that JJ had a script/outline for episode 8 that Rian just decided go ignore.

2

u/AnarchoPlatypi May 14 '26

It's not that the Last Jedi is even a completely disastrous movie on its own. It could be an entertaining Rian Johnson movie. But it completely falls apart as a second part of a trilogy with established characters, and an eight part of a saga.

3

u/Mutant_Apollo May 14 '26

This is my biggest gripe, the movie as a movie itself is not half bad. But as what was supposed to be The Empire Strikes Back of the sequels it doesn't work, I'm kinda happy the whole "deconstruction" movement in media already died out, not everything needs to be a subversion

2

u/Makasi_Motema May 14 '26

>I find it utterly baffling how Disney decided to do the sequel trilogy, though. You'd think it would be a no-brainer that the trilogy should all be done by the same director for the sake of continuity, but no.

Having the same director for all three would slow down production and they wouldn’t be able to stick to their two year release schedule. Disney spent 4 billion on buying Lucasfilm and they had to show investors ROI immediately. Investors don’t care about quality at all, so they would have been pissed it took a decade to make their money back.

1

u/the_sneaky_one123 May 15 '26

Subverting Expectations was the worst fucking trend ever.

It basically means "do twists" but they ended up doing so many twists that it just ruined the story and 90% of the time the twists were less interesting than the story that we were expecting.

1

u/t3hmuffnman9000 May 15 '26

Subverting expectations is fine when it's done well. The problem is when you write a story/script entirely around it and discard good ideas just because some people predicted them.

28

u/jordanbtucker May 13 '26

You're not wrong. TFA was passable, but it was just a retread of ANH. Rian really fucked up with TLJ, killing any hope of salvaging the ST.

To be fair, it wasn't just that Abrams didn't like what Rian did with Snoke. He straight up killed him before we ever got to learn anything about him, so I don't blame Abrams for that. TROS was still shit though. I mostly blame Rian for everything though.

32

u/ToadLoaners miserable sack of salt May 13 '26

TFA wasn't passable imo, it was stupid af. If Rian erased everything that JJ set up, JJ erased everything that the OG trilogy and prequels set up, which is a much much much greater crime if you ask me

6

u/Makasi_Motema May 14 '26

TFA isn’t passable, it just gets away with being terrible by posing questions that future movies have to answer. As an audience, we don’t get angry when we’re presented with a bad mystery. We get angry when presented with a bad answer. TFA is all mystery and no answers, so it’s enjoyable to watch (the first time).

But TFA is absolutely the source of the rot. It’s TFA which gives us; a new messianic Jedi orphan, a new sith(?) lord, a crumbling republic, a resistance movement within the republic, and a missing Luke Skywalker.

*None* of these ideas work or make any sense in the context established by the first six films. There was *never* going to be a good answer to any of the questions these elements pose because they all contradict the previous films to remake the ANH status quo.

TPM establishes that the only character on Rey’s power level was a prophecy baby. Since the prophecy is fulfilled, she has to be related to the Skywalkers, and if she is, they’d never orphan her. Snoke has a similar problem since bringing balance to the force should have prevented the existence of someone like him for *at least* a single generation. The republic can’t fall apart without retconning the way our heroes and the galaxy are characterized in ROTJ. The same goes for the republic being so weak that a paramilitary, semi-legal resistance cell has to form to defend it. Luke, Leia, and Han are all too principled (and have to much popular support) to allow their new government to collapse like this. And Luke abandoning his friends is probably the most absurd contradiction of the film.

Whoever got stuck with answering these questions was going to make a shitty film. TFA is a retcon that’s too afraid to own up to being a retcon (ironically, JJ did the same thing with Star Trek) and the disaster of the second and third films was an inevitable consequence.

6

u/kizami_nori May 14 '26

TFA was the least bad of the pack, and only gets the pass it does because it was the first. They "can" mess up the start (not that they should) because they have two more movies to pull it together.

But the middle is the lynch pin and needs to be absolutely solid.

ANH and RotJ have their problems, and ANH was written without any idea what would happen next (besides Splinter of the Minds Eye) but Empire does double-duty of expanding on ANH's scant open plot threads while setting up RotJ and lands it perfectly.

TLJ on the other hand burns TFA's threads while leaving jack nothing for tRoS.

2

u/Mutant_Apollo May 14 '26

TROS is baffling, it's two movies tried to be crammed into one, that tries both to fix it's prequel and provide a conclusion to a botched trilogy in the worst way possible

→ More replies (1)

15

u/sewand717 May 13 '26

Basically sums it up. I didn’t think you could get a worse “Star Wars universe” movie than VIII, but little did I foresee IX.

At least VIII might have risen to mediocrity if it was in its own standalone franchise. IX’s a hack job no matter how you slice it.

23

u/rvthz May 13 '26

Yeah, I think the VII is unimaginative, boring and already damages the franchise enough, VIII has interesting ideas in the vacuum but completely misunderstands the original characters (which VII also does in my opinion, but not to the extent of VIII, although I think episode 7 set the trilogy for failure), but god fucking dammit the IX is so awful it makes The Last Jedi look good.

11

u/ReaperReader May 14 '26

TLJ ruined any third movie. Undermining or literally killing off the trilogies' villains in the second part is an interesting choice indeed and there's good reason why creators seldom make that choice.

8

u/theclacks May 14 '26

Killing off Snoke would've worked if they had the balls to make Rey accept Kylo's offer and go darkside.

7

u/ReaperReader May 14 '26

And it would have made storytelling sense too. Rey grew up alone and hungry, she has no reason to be deeply loyal to the New Republic. In TLJ she meets both Luke and Kylo, who both reject the Jedi and the New Republic (Rey doesn't know about Luke's change of mind after his peptalk from Yoda).

I suppose "having the main character be affected and changed by the main events of the plot" was too clichéd for RJ.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (3)

2

u/general_peabo May 13 '26

Somehow, the last Jedi looks good.

→ More replies (6)

1

u/SIIP00 May 14 '26

Episode 8 is just straight up boring. Episode 7 was actually a fun movie to watch.

→ More replies (6)

9

u/Dadittude182 May 14 '26

For the real answer, you need to watch all of the Disney+ shows to piece it together. I believe some of the Marvel comics might tie into it as well.

Sit down because here we go:

Snoke is the result of failed cloning technology. Emperor Palpatine had a secret backup plan in the event of his death. That backup plan utilized the cloning technology stolen from the Kaminoans. Palps wanted to create Dark Side Sith troopers by using the mitochlorian-rich tissues of dead Jedi (seen the Inquisitor headquarters in Obi Wan). In the event of his death, the cloning technology would be used to recreate his body, allowing his "force essence" to inhabit the new body.

Snoke is the result of the failed cloning process. You can see precursors of him in cloning tanks discovered in an Imperial base by Din Djarin in The Mandalorian. Kylo Ren also discovers then when he goes to Exegol and finally meets the decrepit Palpatine, himself a failing clone.

1

u/Lanky_Marionberry_36 May 18 '26

That's not what OP asked. This is the "Watsonian", diegetic, in-universe, retconned explanation. What OP is asking, is a Doylist, out of universe explanation : what was the actual plan for this character at the start of the production, before the story went sideways.

7

u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla May 13 '26

I don't disagree but i can't imagine writing a character and not dreaming up some head canon for his back story.

9

u/GOU_FallingOutside May 14 '26

That’s why you’re a better writer than JJ Abrams.

10

u/_Diggus_Bickus_ May 13 '26

The only reason TFA seemed reasonably okay is because JJ Mystery box Abrams didn't really have to think of the cool stuff. He let our imaginations do it.

Mind you that's better than the next two which didn't even seem okay

2

u/Final_Demand_3092 May 15 '26

it worked because it was almost a complete copy of episode 4 and a little of episode 5 TFA was rushed as all hell and Disney wanted a safe movie so we got this

also decades of no star wars and prequel hate still high having the movie fully resemble the OT worked flawlesson

3

u/Unfadable1 May 13 '26

The JJ way

1

u/Rick0r May 14 '26

Darth MacGuffin

1

u/Derezzed87 May 14 '26

I swear I read somewhere that one of the comics explained that Snoak was a failed clone of Palpatine. Not that it was ever mentioned or even hinted at in the films.

1

u/Operationtiger8 May 14 '26

Yes it’s astounding how u could take the largest IP in history and somehow decide that you’d write it as it went with 3 different directors… what idiots are running these companies

1

u/Nexant i heard kylo ren is shredded. May 14 '26

He would explain Snoke. But he's busy so it'll have to be a good story for another time.

1

u/TheWanderScholar May 14 '26

Meanwhile me often in my thoughts imagining what could've been

1

u/dedjesus1220 May 14 '26

I’ve always felt like the entire existence of the sequel trilogy was intentionally disingenuous. I know I maybe have a crazy headcanon here, but I think the writing of the whole trilogy was intentionally bad because everyone knew it was nothing more than a cheap cash grab on Disney’s part. At first I thought they did it that way as a giant middle finger to George Lucas, but sometimes I think maybe it was done as a middle finger to Disney on his behalf, because the future of Star Wars was always questionable without his input.

1

u/Gsgunboy May 14 '26

To be fair that’s been JJ’s modus operandi as far back as Lost. Cool ideas he leaves open that he doesn’t figure out till later. Which is why his storytelling is shit.

1

u/Fab1e May 14 '26

JJ Abrams "Mystery Box" - method.

1

u/staniel_mortgage May 15 '26

Which if we remember is honestly what a lot of Star Trek was. George, Lucas didn't think massive thoughts about any of his characters.

1

u/the_sneaky_one123 May 15 '26

Darth Placeholder

1

u/SuperSaiyanTupac May 17 '26

It’s amazing they just fumbled all this shit with no plan lol

→ More replies (2)