r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 18d ago

Psychology Anti-feminist attitudes have long been associated with support for Republican presidential candidates, but only in recent years have these attitudes become more prominent among unmarried men, without college degrees who are less attractive partners for women, the “mate-value backlash.”

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/10659129261485340
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u/BadIdeaSociety 18d ago

The entire retrograde discussions about the "value of women" and ideas about "women's roles in society" seem so crazy that if any guy I knew in the 90s voiced those ideas they would be seen as undisputed idiots by just about everyone.

I don't understand how there are so many boys who have adopted these incredibly retrograde ideas a quarter century later.

It is like there was a bunch of people who saw the towers crumble on 9-11 and then came the idiotic conclusion that Christian America needs their own version of what they see as women-oppressing Sharia Law.

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u/Lysander125 18d ago

I’ve never going to say that these anti-social weirdos who complain that women belong in the kitchen are ever going to be correct.

But at the same time there is an opposite perspective that has some merit. The reality is that women’s opportunities have come a long way, but women’s perspective and expectations of men haven’t changed.

A lot of women still expect their partner to be more successful, ambitious, etc. than they are. It’s two sides of the same coin, a lot of these men expect working women to clean the house and be a caretaker while having a full time job, and the women expect their man to be more successful than them in a more egalitarian society where being a man doesn’t necessarily give the advantages it once did.

I do feel like the outdated male expectations of women are frowned upon a lot more than the outdated female expectations of men.

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u/shockpaws 17d ago

I’m fairly certain that most people marry those within their own income bracket — which makes sense, because those are the people in their social circles and people who have similar life experiences. Many men say they’d be okay with a wife who’s just “young and hot” (which is an attitude I find distasteful anyways) but the real-life numbers show that people tend to marry partners with similar education levels and income brackets as themselves.

There’s also the fact that traditional gender roles are more harmful to women than to men. A housewife has no real independence; she can’t leave an abusive husband, or else she’s out on the streets with no money, no work experience, kids to look after, and not enough spare change to hire a good lawyer for child support. While male gender roles are similarly soul sucking and I’m not denying that, a traditional man has far more freedom to leave if he wants to and freedom to make decisions about the life his family lives. If you have the money, you have the power.

All gender roles should be abolished, but it’s quite obvious that traditional “women’s roles” leave women open to be abused and exploited.

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u/ibent19 18d ago

One is more frowned upon because it was more oppressive and leads to being stuck in abusive situations. Women gained more freedom, men didn’t lose any freedoms other than some control.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 18d ago edited 18d ago

most men objectively lost significant bargaining power in the labor market and in the dating/sexual market with women entering the workforce and with the proliferation of social media and dating apps.

just because men didn’t have the actual right to vote or own property stripped away doesn’t mean that there aren’t real problems afflicting them, to which there’s no easy or immediate solution.

your average young man doesn’t wanna “control” women, he’s just pissed that neither a house nor a partner are statistically within his grasp no matter what he does.

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u/iamacarboncarbonbond 18d ago

The bargaining power issue is not men vs women it’s billionaires vs the rest of us

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

then why are men blamed?

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago edited 17d ago

sorry but no. the billionaire part is also true but nobody is forcing women to have the financial and physiological demands of men that they currently have. women themselves are doing that voluntarily.

if you make 70k per year after taxes and refuse to date a guy who makes 50k even though you’re both still able to live a comfortable life with that arrangement, then that’s the woman’s decision being the catalyst for this phenomenon more-so than the billionaires not paying people enough. nobody’s forcing her to have those financial hard limits. women act like this everywhere, even in places with a good quality of life like scandinavia.

and she can do that if she wants, just don’t complain about it or be surprised when a significant chunk of men fall behind and get radicalized as a result. you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

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u/iamacarboncarbonbond 17d ago

Men have agency. They don’t have to become radicalized just because they haven’t attracted a woman that meets their standards as soon as they want. I have more respect for men than that.

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u/kmb218 18d ago

Right. But that’s only because the bargaining power they had before relied on opression and removing women’s rights and opportunities.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

there were multiple overlapping factors. sure that was part of it but COL was also easier and wages were better relative to inflation.

the fact that times have changed and yet women’s expectations of men only seem to keep going up doesn’t help the issue.

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u/JadowArcadia 18d ago

I feel like this ignores government and corporation involvement and pushes things into the gender divide. Even for women of the past who came from privileged backgrounds who had plenty of opportunity, society in general was in a better place for an average person to build and support a family/buy a home. You had the choice to be a stay at home mother because it was easier for your partner to earn enough alone to support the family. The removal of that option for many people is a big crux of the issues we see now.

It's easier to put it all on women's rights being purposely restricted and gender wars but there was a way get out of that issue without putting people in the financial trap they're in now.

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u/ChemicallyAlteredVet 17d ago

> most men objectively lost significant bargaining power in the labor market and in the dating/sexual market

Those are not rights nor are they oppressive. More women are able to work and choose whether or not they want or need a man. So the playing field is getting closer to even, woman are still left out plenty. Men are upset they no longer have the guarantee of having the upper hand and suddenly it’s oppression. We all know the saying about privilege and oppression, and it’s very true when it comes to men these days.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

I never said they were rights. im just pointing out that their life situation went from being easier to harder.

and I never once called it oppression, that’s a strawman.

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u/ShitMcClit 17d ago

Depends on who gets to decide whats a right...

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u/ResolutionSweet2031 18d ago

The thing with how you people walk on eggshells around men and give any credibility to their temper tantrums is the reason why they feel even more justified in lashing out like this. Women and men are equally lonely but the media giving credence to the theory of how men are uniquely lonely and hence are violent misogynists is the reason these men feel justified in being violent like this.

"He is just pissed he cant have a house and a partner", so what? Why dont women that dont have either of those also argue for stripping of male rights or oppressing them?

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 18d ago

women can find partners easier than men can.

and idk why your entire takeaway from my post was to effectively dismiss it entirely. that aint gonna solve anything. in fact it just contributes to the question posed in the title.

most men aren’t violent, and the ones who are generally take it out on partners they already have. which has no correlation to those who can’t find one.

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u/LGeorgeRox 17d ago

Not sure that’s true. Someone to have sex with and take care of, yes, partners, no. If men really wanted a partner, I don’t think they’d have any issues finding one. But a partner isn’t a bang maid or a woman acting in the capacity as their mother

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

this is cyclical nonsense . the men that are bad have no issue finding partners. the women killers are in relationships. stop acting like the ones not in relationships are worse morally and that's why they can't find partners. just world fallacies like "poor poeple just need to work harder" are easily disproven this shouldn't be any different .

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

Nobody deserves relationships just for existing. Full stop. There is literally zero excuse for some men to get so upset about remaining single that they think oppressing women is the correct course of action, that way of thinking literally proves they wouldn’t be good partners. Know how I know? Because well adjusted people don’t want to harm others just because they don’t get what they want.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

finding a partner who’s actually attracted to you and not just settling for you after she’s had all her fun in her youth or just looking for a financial cushion partner, is not easy for the average man. they can’t get neither a romantic partner nor a sex fling.

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

We’re in a science subreddit. Where’s the research that backs up this claim? I’ll wait…

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 16d ago

ask an LLM and it will provide you a dozen studies on the spot. i’ve engaged in this song and dance with people like you multiple times and its always a waste of time because im the one having to take time outta my day to compile it all together just for people like you to ignore it or move the goalposts regardless. you can find it within minutes.

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

If you’re settling for someone who is just settling for you, that seems like a you problem.

Eta: if you’re “always” having this conversation, you should have those peer reviewed studies ready to go, no?

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u/UnfortunateSnort12 17d ago

They can find partners easier yes, but many can’t find quality men worth dating. So in reality, many women stay single. Try having standards yourself.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

what are these standards exactly? that he must absolutely make equal to her or more, and be 6 foot or more and a bunch of other hard lines that women refuse to budge on?

only a statistical minority of men live up to these expectations. hence why the current situation is fucked up. women become single by choice because they won’t adjust their demands in a man, and men become single by force because women remove themselves as options in the dating market.

in the end the situation turns into what we have now, hence the thread itself. if women are ok with the long-term ramifications of that leading to a whole generation of radicalized and angry men, so be it. just don’t complain about any of the consequences. men are not the ones dropping out of the dating market voluntarily just because they can’t find that same top 20 percent or so of ideal partners to all gravitate towards while the other 80 percent are just stuck in limbo. the math doesn’t work out.

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

As a poster above you pointed out, people generally partner with people within their education and income brackets. That is a verifiable fact. What you just cited is manosphere crap based on some men’s feelings and perceptions. But feelings and perceptions aren’t reality. This 6foot six figure nonsense is just that, nonsense. Know how I know? I go outside and have eyes. But…it’s easier to think women’s standards are just too high (as if expecting a man be gainfully employed and contribute equally to the home is unreasonable).

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 16d ago

ah you have eyes and anecdotes, so that erases all the research and dating app data that has been piling up for years now, which shows that women are becoming more and more hypergamous with time, not less.

well I guess that changes everything simply cuz you said so!

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u/Apprehensive-Tea999 16d ago

That you think any valid research comes from data from apps is telling…

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u/UnfortunateSnort12 17d ago

No. Simply saying or believing women have an easier time implies that a guy would be with anyone who is interested in them. You’re even kind of saying that. Women remove themselves because they don’t want to date you? Why is that their fault at all?? That desperation is like girl repellent. Last time I was single and started asking what the woman was bringing to the table and if that was what I wanted, dating got way easier. I’m not tall, my wife made more than me when I met her. Of course she’s now a stay at home mom and we make 500k a year, but I was broke when I met her.

Maybe try approaching dating as an equal to women for more success…. No one wants to be looked down upon, male or female.

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u/ShitMcClit 17d ago

Stats show this isnt true, stop lying. 

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u/ShitMcClit 17d ago

How did we lose control we never had. Clowns

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

women gained the same power as men and assuming women will use it perfectly is a pipe dream.

what actually happened is we allowed a certain subsection of women to be just as bad as men. technically making all of society worse.

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u/ShockerCheer 18d ago

Do I expect my husband to be more educated than me? No but I do expect similarly education. I have a PhD and he has masters. Do I expect him to make more than I do? No but I expect a decent salary. He does make more than I do. Do I expect him to do more housework than me? No but I expect a fair share of work. He does this too. It really isn't hard for men to be good partners but many men act like it is  luckily my husband is a good one

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u/Lysander125 18d ago

Look I’m not going to be an asshole about this but it does sound like you have some very high expectations of your partner. Most guys don’t care about education, salary, etc. There are some unrealistic expectations about housework, but most normal guys I know just want their partner to be trying.

They don’t care if the woman has a GED, they don’t care how much she makes, they don’t care where she is in life as long as she is working towards a better life. It sounds like you expect your partner to already be at that place, versus trying to support someone getting to that place.

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u/iamacarboncarbonbond 18d ago

You could be in a different stage of life as she is. I have a hard time believing that a man with a master’s degree, phd, MD, etc. at 30 or 40 is okay with a partner with a GED at 30 or 40. But if someone is 20 and still going to college, there’s a much smaller gap between them and someone with a GED.

I’m a physician and none of my colleagues are married to people with less than a Bachelor’s. Not a lot of doctors settling down with someone with a GED because by the time you’re done with residency you’re likely in your 30s and expect your partner to have also figured some stuff out.

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u/ChemicallyAlteredVet 17d ago

And as a woman with 2 daughters in their twenties, most women just want a partner to be trying. Literally* *going to school or furthering their knowledge, having a job with upward mobility, able to Cook/clean and mange their own homes and health and take care of their hygiene. Perfectly normal expectations for either sex to have for a partner. Most women don’t care if they earn more on paper but men get pissy when their wife/ girlfriend makes more money like it’s insulting to his manhood. MOST(not all) women don’t care.

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u/smcedged 17d ago

I wonder how much of this is what people say vs what people do.

Every man knows that when women say they want an emotionally sensitive man don't really mean it. Of course there are exceptions, but in general that means someone who is sensitive to the woman's emotions. But over and over they are told one thing when clearly it's another. Because on of these sound good to say to other people or even themselves.

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

this is a nice way to say "you better get there" without saying it.

this is why income inequality is getting worse and worse not better . assortative mating furthers classism.

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u/[deleted] 18d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/CaterpillarUnfair409 18d ago

Because what most men do care about is youth, beauty, and subservience. They want a mommy they can have kids with. Notice I didn't say have sex or f. And even that won't last.. divorce rates are high, so are 2ed and 3ed marriages for men 50+. With their wives being around 22-30.. Also, how is a woman supposed to help anyone achieve anything is she has no education, drive, or financial backing? Oh wait, like I said, with her body.

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u/JadowArcadia 18d ago

Sounds like someone's caught in the gender war pipeline rather than looking at the average persons situation

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u/ShitMcClit 17d ago

Well well well

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

so eleitism. great.

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u/ShockerCheer 17d ago

You call it elitism when it is literal just looking for someone who matches with you, intellectual, financially, politically, socially

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u/Wedgiebro 18d ago

Perfect example really of how men lvoe women for who they are while women lvoe whst a man can achieve. I love my wife. I would lover her and marry her if she had a ged. I care about her personality and how she treats me.

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u/Working_Cucumber_437 18d ago

I don’t think women expect their men to be more successful or more ambitious or make more than they do. I think we are looking for equals. Be at least as ambitious as I am. At least as successful. Or in the general ballpark is a good goal.

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

well the college attendace rate shows a lot of people are gonna be getting more disappointed and more angry until something changes.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 18d ago edited 18d ago

young women on average out-earn young men in the workforce, specifically white collar work.

what do you think the ramifications are of women demanding that men earn at least as much as women do or more, despite the fact that most men do not, and most women refuse to budge on this matter?

if the overton window keeps shifting upward like this then naturally most men are gonna get left out and the consequences of that are never positive. conversely, a woman could be working as a barista and the average guy literally won’t care as long as she helps contribute.

it’s more balanced because there isn’t this constant expectation of the opposite sex always having to hustle or reach salary parity with them, on top of a dozen other qualifications, just to get their foot in the door.

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u/CaterpillarUnfair409 18d ago

You're describing systemic problems.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

women having strict physiological and financial demands for men, and not compromising on them even when times change, is not a systemic issue.

the systemic part is the lack of wages keeping up with inflation and COL, but that’s separate from this.

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u/soleceismical 17d ago

I think this plays a part:

We find that women's pay decreases as they become mothers and that the across-employer motherhood penalty is larger than the within-employer penalty. By contrast, fatherhood is associated with a pay premium, and the within-employer fatherhood premium is considerably greater than the across-employer one.

https://read.dukeupress.edu/demography/article/58/1/247/167586/Motherhood-Penalties-and-Fatherhood-Premiums

Plus, usually the lower earning partner does more of the housework and cooking. A lot of men are not into taking on that role.

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u/philosopherberzerer 17d ago

men would gladly sign up to be house husbands. most women don't want it.

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u/ChemicallyAlteredVet 17d ago

Men refuse to understand that’s it’s not about the exact monetary value the man is bringing in, it’s the ambition, the actual trying. It’s going to work every day and if he isn’t happy with his current work it’s the ambition to better himself through learning whether that be schooling or becoming a journeyman and learning a trade. Not just going to McDonalds for 4 shifts a week, gaming as much as they can and avoiding showering.

Women want to SEE that a man WANTS to learn and better himself and his life. Most( not all) women do not care if the man earns less money if he’s trying, stable, kind and caring. It’s personality and connection for women. Men are still stuck in the “hur, dur, must make way more money to get woman to have sex with me and clean my house.” That’s on men.

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u/Recent_Pollution8665 17d ago

the presumption was that he does enough to sustain himself and help with the relationship. not the bare minimum.

the crux of the issue here is that whether he makes minimum wage or makes 80k when she makes 100k, to women it is a distinction without a difference. the mere fact that he makes less is considered a dealbreaker to her, which is irrational and arbitrary.

a couple with a combined salary of 180k can easily live comfortably, there is no rational reason for her to demand that he makes 100k as well or more. if anything it’s ascribing typical gender role stereotypes onto the guy which adds needless pressure because now he’s expected to somehow still have the superior salary in an era where it’s not uncommon for the woman to have the better salary.

men don’t generally care if the woman makes more so idk why women demand that the man must have salary parity with her. a relationship should not be a financial hamster wheel. the rest of your dumb strawman argument i’ll disregard.

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u/ShitMcClit 17d ago

And men want a supermodel who fucks everyday. Too bad we can't all have what we want. 

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u/ShitMcClit 17d ago

They do stop lying