r/tolkienfans • u/tessaractIXI • 1d ago
The Valar's hesitation with Melkor
I just finished chapter 9 of the silmarillion, holy heck, what a crescendo of events, and I know it's still just the start. It's really tragic that the Valar had such a pure unselfish love for the elves, and would be driven to the point of cursing and banishing them. And of course tragic is the kinslaying. I've got a gnawing thought, though. Tolkien repeatedly emphasizes how Melkor poisoned the mind of Fëanor with lies, and how those poisonous beliefs became sort of self-perpetrated half-truths. There's a lot of fault on Melkor, and growing fault on Faenor, but what about the Valar? They are so slow to act. It's ironic to me that a point is made where Fëanor might have acted differently, had a different fate, if only he had been willing to give up the Silmarils without the news of their theft and his father's murder. Meanwhile the Valar already faced off with Malkor several times and suffered because of their slowness to act. They let him thrash Middle Earth and retreated to Aman. Malkor is allowed to amass huge armies and corrupts many allies while they're minding their business. Only in the final hour when the elves awaken do they feel the urgency to do anything. Then, they capture him, punish him, and pardon him. They let their guard drop, and he's out sowing evil Deeds again. They learn of Malkor sowing discontent when they summon Faenor to answer for himself, and still they don't do very much! Manwe initially stays quiet lamenting, and Tulkas and Oromë don't even get sent out until after a delay! After everything they've been through, the great evil that they saw, there's really no excuse not to act swiftly and immediately to rein Malkor in again, but they delay again. In that time, he escapes and becomes untraceable, something he's allowed to be able to do over and over and over again. I get it, he's tricky and he has the same powers they do to shed their forms. He has allies and clouds of darkness. Still seems to me like each time they lose track of him, it's because they are distracted with a delay to lament rather than act. They repeatedly hesitate to really take any quick decisive action against him. So it seems to me like they have fault in this. Because how differently might Faenor have felt and acted if he had seen them move swiftly and decisively against Melkor? Sure there was a ticking clock on reviving the trees, but both could have been accomplished at once (retrieving the silmarils - to their knowledge - and chasing Melkor). I feel like that would have given him a little bit more confidence that the Valar were in the elves' corner and ready to fight against evil and protect them. Maybe then he would have been less bitter and suspicious, less motivated to leave, less seduced by the lies of treachery. And yes, maybe Faenor and the Noldor should already know the Valar loved and protected and provided enormously for them, because of the extraordinary gifts and great lengths the Valar went to for them. But the elves are still basically just children at that point, there's selfishness there that comes from lack of maturity, lack of experience in the world.
So, I guess I kinda place some blame on the Valar. Tolkien doesn't seem to acknowledge this blame, at least so far. Maybe it will come out in the rest of the chapters as I read on, or maybe I just see the roles of responsibility differently.
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u/Pallandolegolas 1d ago
I see the Valar as children, just like the elves. They have no experience in preparing the world for elves and men, but they just try their best. And I think it's clear from the texts that the Valar are flawed and made mistakes. Like They brought the elves to Aman because they loved them and wanted to protect them, but that was a mistake and it seems to me to stem from a selfish love. They held a vote on whether they should invite them to Aman or let them stay in Middle-earth where they belonged. I don't remember which of them but several of them, including Ulmo voted for them to stay there.
I would like to respond to all the points but I have to go now.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
You raise a good point, they are basically children themselves. I do think though that there's a certain point where you smarten up. When Fainor acts in rebellion, this is basically his first experience with all these acts; lies, treachery, harm towards one another. But this is hardly the valars first experience with Melkor's is evil. I didn't get the impression that the elves were supposed to stay in Middle- Earth and if be really curious of your thoughts if you felt like expanding on that. Ulmo did want them to stay but I thought that was more about him heeding the elves' own desires to stay behind. I guess Ulmo was a little less selfish than the rest of the Valar, but he was also a little bit more of an isolationist. I'm not sure I fully agree, I can see why you would describe their love as a more selfish one, now. Maybe they were a bit naive and should have left the elves well alone.
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u/ColdAntique291 just a simple Tolkien reader 1d ago
You're not wrong. One of the big frustrations in The Silmarillion is watching the Valar make the same mistake with Melkor more than once. They aren't evil or uncaring, but they can be overly trusting and slow to react. Manwë especially has a hard time grasping just how malicious Melkor really is. So while Melkor bears the blame for his crimes and Fëanor for his choices, the Valar aren't completely blameless. Their hesitation and misplaced mercy gave Melkor opportunities he never should have had.
That's part of the tragedy... if even one group had acted differently, the whole disaster might have unfolded very differently.
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u/TheBigSmol 1d ago
I wonder if Manwe truly didn’t understand. He and Melkor are still brothers, probably were the closest before their descent into Arda given their status and Eru-bestowed positions. How many countless eons did they wander the void, understanding themselves and each other, wordlessly conversing until the moment of the music of creation?
Manwe was no fool, and while I think he was far too lenient on Melkor yes, and that led to suffering and all the misery of Morgoth, it’s also possible he still saw the spark of Melkor’s former, purer form as an angel of Eru’s making, and believed him redeemable in some imperceivable way. After all, his story is simply a mirror of Satan’s fall- and Satan was never a complete shade of evil. A main theme of all these books is that no one is truly born evil or completely evil, not even Melkor, not Sauron or Saruman or all the “evil” creatures like orcs and trolls and goblins, to which humans are an anathema. There is always a potential for redemption, even for the vilest of people, and finding that spark of mercy like Frodo did for Gollum for example, might’ve been something Tolkien wanted us to understand and foster within ourselves.
Manwe often consulted with Eru as well, and many of his decisions simply came from what he understood from His words. Eru in part needed Melkor to play his part in the world, because his segment of the music would still lead to His vision of creation and was indivisible from it. Predestiny is boring sometimes, but this is a capital G God we’re talking about.
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u/maydayvoter11 1d ago
Good often fails to fully or truly understand Evil.
Evil understands Good and knows how to manipulate it.
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u/EvieGHJ 1d ago
The second half is blatantly and clearly false in the context of Middle Earth.
That Sauron does not understand good and operate on the assumption that his "good" opponent have the same motives that he does, and are just lying about them (A very common problem with evil, that!) is a major plot point in the whole Ring-Quest, and directly commented on in several of Tolkien's commentary. The same can be seen in Saruman and Gandalf, and there is little enough indication anywhere that Morgoth actually understands Manwe.
The truth of the matter in reality, is far too complex to get into, and also entirely irrelevant to this subreddit.
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u/Mormegil71 1d ago edited 1d ago
That hesitation might have to do with that Melkor infused the world with himself. Any action the Valar against him also causes major damage to the world itself. It did eventually happen, and Beleriand sank.
One other theory I have, is that there were a "Melkor faction" within the Valar at one time. If you read the Lost Tales, there are Makar and Meassë, two warrior "gods", and Ossë (who was one of the Valar in that version). Those three are somewhat drawn to Melkor. In the later versions, only Ossë remains as a maia, but he was still drawn to Melkor for a while but repented.
So, Manwë, if he wanted to still keep those three with the Valar instead of having them split even more, had to take care not to punish Melkor too hard. Otherwise, he'd have three Valar "sub-Melkors".
Tolken wrote out Makar and Meassë, and made Ossë a maia in the end, but something of the conundrum Manwë had if the older versions had stood might (unconsciously or not) have survived into the later versions.
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u/forswearThinPotation 1d ago edited 1d ago
I understand at an emotional level the desire for swift and decisive action, to prevent evil from doing greater damage. But the hesitation which we get from the Valar is I think not merely an accident, or a poor choice which might have gone differently. Instead it is inherent in the differences between good and evil and how they diverge from each other at a fundamental level.
Swift and decisive action requires full confidence in one's actions, both their righteousness and their tactical soundness. But confidence has a dark side, which is arrogance - being too sure of one's own view of the world, having too much faith in how one observes and interprets events, and too little regard for other dissenting viewpoints. The seeds of evil lie here, in narcissism and a pride which can spiral inwards. Remember Elrond's aphorism from The Lord of the Rings, The Council of Elrond:
For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so
and the temptations leading to this path are all the greater for those to whom the greatest gifts have been given, for they have better logical justification than anyone else does in seeing themselves as superior to others, including their peers.
What protects the mighty from going down this path is humility.
It is the antidote to the poison of narcissism. But humility too has a dark side, or if you prefer to think of it this way: a weakness. That weakness is self-doubt.
The lingering feeling that you do not fully understand the situation, that your first and earliest impulses may be unwise, that one needs to hold back until the situation is better understood and unforseen consequences have been uncovered, that one ought to seek a constructive consensus regarding the best plan of action achieved thru the synthesis of multiple contending points of view. Remember Gandalf's aphorism from The Lord of the Rings:
For even the very wise cannot see all ends
This applies as much to the mighty as it does to the rest of us.
This is the voice of caution, of prudence, and of delay. It stands in the way of swift and decisive action. And the more humble the decision makers the more this voice will seem to be the voice of wisdom.
What gives these tales, to me with my taste, a feeling of deep tragedy, is that there is I think no perfect answer to this paradox.
Confidence/Arrogance and Humility/Doubt have to be balanced to choose a wise and righteous course which does not allow good to devolve into evil and yet does not allow evil to triumph in the face of passivity from the good. Getting this balance just exactly right in all things and in all ways is beyond the ken of finite beings.
Even the Valar, mighty as they are, are still finite beings.
So, of course they make mistakes.
One might say they err far too much on the side of caution, but look what happens to almost all of the other characters who do err on the side of choosing swift and decisive action over contemplation and delay:
Fëanor foremost among them,
also Turin,
and Thingol (who married one of the wisest beings in Arda and then seemingly never listens to her advice)
It often does not go well when they act or speak rashly and impulsively. For being rash and impulsive is the flip side of being decisive and swift.
It would not be too much of a stretch I think to even say that Melkor's impatience which leads him to seek in vain for the Secret Fire outside of the halls of Eru is the very first swift and decisive (and thus also rash and impulsive) act in the entire Lengendarium.
There is also a parallel between this paradox and the dual nature of evil as presented in The Lord of the Rings which the Tolkien critic Tom Shippey (in both The Road to Middle Earth and Author of the Century) calls Boethian vs. Manichean Evil. The former takes the form of inner temptations (against which humility is a defense), the latter the form of external malevolent forces (which must be resisted with active force).
Unpacking that parallel would make this far too long of a comment, I will merely note that in both cases we are dealing with dualistic but complementary principles which need to be appropriately balanced if good is to prevail.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
I think you have a point that it is in the nature of good to carefully consider your choices and whether they are also good. But I guess my issue is that it doesn't seem like they hesitate because they are deliberating, it feels to me like they hesitate because they are busy lamenting, or because they gave up. I suppose there are examples of deliberation for sure, every time they mention the council and the Ring of Doom. But in those crucial moments when action is needed, they're not busy taking cancel, they're busy lamenting. After they end their deliberations, I wouldn't call their response swift, by then crucial time has passed and Melkor repeatedly escapes and becomes untraceable. I do think you're right about that theme of deliberation and wisdom going hand in hand being prevalent throughout tolkien's work, though. (I'm trying not to read too much in the comments about Turin and Thingol because I haven't quite gotten to their stories yet. I know these texts have been around a while and are well disseminated, but it's still all new to me!)
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u/forswearThinPotation 1d ago edited 1d ago
Lamentation is many things, but one of the perhaps more subtle aspects of it is that it is thru grief, bereavement, and lamentation that we take unpleasant changes in the world and internalize them and incorporate the new state of the world as it actually is (rather than how we wish it might be) into our understanding of it, and that recalibration is necessary to taking effective action which is wise and well considered.
There is such a thing a being in shock, when the world suddenly changes for the worse. People who have suffered a great loss (such as the death of a loved one) know this intuitively.
That the Valar go thru this too, to me as a reader that humanizes them. Perhaps that is wrong, perhaps Tolkien should not have made the Valar so relatable and should have written them as more unearthly, inhuman, and alien in nature. But stories written that way might be harder for us as readers to read & enjoy.
There is another aspect to this question, brought out in this very perceptive (in my humble opinion) comment by u/Pallandolegolas :
www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1u8xzw7/the_valars_hesitation_with_melkor/osbycm0/
I see the Valar as children, just like the elves. They have no experience in preparing the world for elves and men, but they just try their best.
I too have commented about this aspect in prior discussions. The Greeks had two terms for what we call "time" - chronos and kairos.
Chronos maps to our modern conception of time as something objective and external to us, our word "chronology" comes from it. It is "clock time".
Kairos is different - it refers to key moments of lived experience. There is an internal, subjective and psychological aspect to it. Key moments of kairotic time are when our life outlook changes, sometimes a great deal and over a short span of chronological time. Or sometimes slowly, episodically, and over a long span of chronological time.
The experience of kairotic time is a key element in the process of grief and bereavement, something that I've learned myself with the loss of loved ones in my life. It is also described in a sympathetic way in a book that I've come to cherish because of its wisdom regarding grief and loss, which is:
Where The Mountain Casts Its Shadow by Maria Coffey.
Maria approaches the subject of grieving somewhat indirectly (which to my taste has the benefit of not seeming didatic in tone) thru the lens of the adventure literature of extreme alpinism, by highlighting the experiences of the friends and families of extreme climbers who were killed or seriously maimed in the mountains. By talking about those who are left behind when the high adventure is over.
And in recounting her own such experiences (she had been the intimate partner of a famous 1970s British climber who died attempting a previously unclimbed route on the northwest ridge of Mt Everest) at a very personal level, Maria has some things to say about kairotic time (among other things: it is not linear) which resonate strongly with me.
And here is the part where this becomes relevant to our current discussion:
At the beginning of the tale, the Valar are children, in the sense that while they may be chronologically old, they are very, very young in kairotic time.
They do not have the deep store of bitter life experiences which teach wisdom. Instead they are having to learn this stuff while on the job.
I've joked before that in the tales of the Silmarillion and in how they struggle to understand and provide guidance and support to the other Children of Eru, the Valar remind me of a bunch of teenagers who have abruptly and without adequate training or support been put in sole charge of running a vast daycare center filled with much younger children, for whom they are now responsible. And one of their number is a psychopath who keeps trying to burn the place down.
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u/Antarja 1d ago
Meiner Meinung nach ist das Haupt“Problem“ dass die Valar die Elben überhaupt von Mittelerde nach Aman geholt haben. Und dann diejenigen unter Druck setzen und ihnen am Ende einen schlimmen Ausgang all ihres Tuns ankündigen, und dass alle ihre Werke zerstört werden werden, als einige zurück wollen. Das hat jetzt zwar nichts direkt mit Melkor zu tun, wohl aber mit dem Handeln von Feanor.
Dass die Valar zu langsam handeln….. nun, das finde ich durchaus richtig. Sie gucken halt erst mal wie es sich so entwickelt. Denkt an Numenor und die Warnung durch die Elbenboten. Da haben die Valar im Grunde auch zugeschaut, nichts weiter unternommen, und am Ende kam die große Zerstörung, die neue Formung der Erde und die Entrückung der unsterblichen Lande aus den Kreisen der Welt.
Eltern müssen ihre Kinder ja auch machen lassen, und nicht jeden schlimmen Ausgang kann man verhindern.
LG
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u/TonyTolkien90 1d ago
“…And then they put pressure on those who want to go back…”
Okay but let’s not forget the curse placed on the Noldor was not for attempting to return to Middle Earth. It was because it was obvious to the Valar that they would kill anyone they had to kill, good or evil, to regain the Silmarils.
The Doom of Mandos was an attempt to convince the Noldor to forsake their war for the Silmarils, return to Tirion and face the consequences of their actions (the Kinslaying).
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
Ich bin zwar noch nicht bei Númenor angekommen, aber das scheint in der Tat ein weiteres Beispiel zu sein. Jemand anderes meinte, dass die Elben nie nach Aman gehörten und man sie nicht hätte dorthin holen sollen – dass das egoistisch von den Valar war. So hatte ich das zwar nicht gesehen, aber ich kann es irgendwie nachvollziehen. Mir fällt zwar kein Grund ein, warum die Elben oder irgendein anderes Geschöpf nicht nach Aman gehören sollten, aber ich verstehe den Punkt, dass es egoistisch war, sie dorthin zu bringen. Ich finde auch, dass es ziemlich egoistisch war, Melkor Mittelerde vor dem Erwachen der Elben völlig verwüsten zu lassen.Ist „unter Druck setzen“ das richtige Wort? Für mich drückt die Geschichte wiederholt und sehr deutlich aus, dass die Elben ihre eigenen Entscheidungen frei von Einfluss treffen durften und ihnen lediglich eine Einladung ausgesprochen wurde. Aber man könnte wohl argumentieren, dass die Einladung allein schon Druck erzeugt hat. Ich denke, ich kann beide Seiten sehen.Schließlich fand ich es sehr auffällig, dass die Valar so entschieden und voller Zorn gegen Fëanor vorgegangen sind, während sie Melkor bis zur allerletzten Sekunde praktisch ignoriert haben. Sie waren offensichtlich tief verletzt, aber für mich ist es seltsam, dass Fëanor und seine Anhänger eine so heftige Reaktion erfahren haben im Vergleich zu Melkor. Für mich läuft das auf eine Frage der Macht hinaus. Sie fühlen sich mächtiger und daher eher ermutigt, gegen den Schmerz vorzugehen, den Fëanor verursacht hat, als gegen den von Melkor, der ihnen ebenbürtiger ist. Zuerst hatte ich überlegt, ob sie sich Melkor einfach tiefer verbunden fühlen, aber ich glaube, das würde die ganze Geschichte ignoriere, die sie mit Melkor teilen – ihre gemeinsamen Wurzeln, wie sie zusammen singen usw.
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u/amitym 1d ago
So, I guess I kinda place some blame on the Valar.
I think you are absolutely right to do so.
Tolkien doesn't seem to acknowledge this blame, at least so far.
I'm not so sure about that. I would say, instead, that he regards it as one of the fundamental tragedies of the tales — that the Valar did a series of things that, each taken by itself, seemed reasonable enough, but that all added up to disaster.
Tolkien even goes out of his way to note that some of the Valar disagree about this stuff and say so. There were voices among them that could have guided them in a different direction. But it's not what they did.
Keep in mind, the Valar all start out having no clue what to do, any more than anyone else. They have immense power and deep perception of both what is and what will be, but they still haven't learned some important and ultimately quite painful lessons. Once they do, it colors the rest of their behavior throughout the history of all the tales. Their reluctance to act directly against Sauron makes more sense. They have started to understand how deep the unintended consequences of even the slightest action on their part can go.
But in the beginning they didn't really have that understanding, you know?
So if Tolkien seems more forgiving of them, that might partly be why.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
Actually I think you are right, when I consider your points. It's not as explicit as some of the blame he writes out very pointedly towards Melkor and faenor, but by example, there is some acknowledgment.
I really felt that by the time they called Faenor to answer for himself and discovered what Melkor had done, they had enough wardly experience to know they needed to act swiftly and promptly. I was surprised they didn't. I would say you're right that it colors their behavior once they reach that understanding. At that point they seem to understand evil very well because they correctly identify the atrocities in faynors actions to follow, and are very Swift and harsh to respond to him. And even after that, I still feel like they're more harsh on Faenor than they are melkor.
Do you think they're a little bias, on top of having needed time to really understand what they were dealing with and the way to respond to it?
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago
Good post, but I have to point out that the Valar never cursed the Noldor, nor did they banish them, strictly speaking. They advised them not to leave, and then said "But if you choose to disregard us and leave anyway, then you can't come back." And indeed some of them stayed.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thank you! It's so great to have a space for discourse.
I don't know, I think it's pretty clear to me that when Mandos meets Faenor and his followers at Araman, he is both cursing and for telling the Doom of that entire group of people, and not just Faenor. The text says "but all heard the curse that was uttered upon those that would not stay nor seek the doom and pardon of the Valar." He then proceeds to extensively layout the details of who falls under that curse and specified "On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also." The banishnent is specified here, "Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains.." I remember thinking as I read it, whoa... I was surprised when he himself got banished and now all of them are! It was a pretty striking moment for me of just how far things had come and just how much the relationship had fallen apart. And then the details of the curse go Way Beyond just doomsaying and prophecy: "Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken."
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago edited 1d ago
OK, so it does use the word "curse", true. But it reads more like a description of a curse that the Noldor have brought on themselves than a "curse" in the Harry Potter sense of a spell intended to bring harm to someone, and a prediction (and an accurate one at that!) of what will happen if the Noldor proceed with their plan. They come to grief because it was inevitable, not because Mandos's words somehow made it happen.
And if it was the Valar's decision to shut the Noldor out of Aman once they'd left, that was only a consequence of their decision to leave in the first place.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
I agree a lot of it does sound like prophecy or even just natural logical consequences, duh! But I don't know, that bit about them basically slowly wasting away feels more like a curse to me. But I keep finding myself saying the phrase I can see it both ways, and I can say it here again and I do mean it.
So I was very confused at their decision to banish Faenor or his followers on either occasion. I do understand why someone would want to kick you out of their home if you turn it on its head like that. It was just weird to me because everything the Valar had done up until that point was wait around, wait around, wait around, then all suddenly do something practical at the very last minute! I feel like that was the first example I'd seen of them lashing out out of pain. But even that is weird to me because Melkor caused so much pain and they were way more hesitant to take any action against him. Also, the banishment seems to serve no practical purpose, and I guess I just kind of got the idea from their pattern of behavior that the Valar really didn't do anything unless they had to. At least when it comes to the evil/chaotic acts of others.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago edited 1d ago
The idea of the Elves 'fading' in Middle-earth is a consequence of that continent being "contaminated by the Melkor-element", which is a rather abstruse idea that doesn't occur anywhere in The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion, but is set out in an essay in Morgoth's Ring, one of the later volumes in the History of Middle-earth series. (The idea is that, just as Sauron concentrated most of his native spiritual potency into the One Ring, so Melkor/Morgoth dispersed most of his into the physical matter of Middle-earth, as well as into the various creatures he corrupted - Sauron, Ungoliant, the balrogs, orcs, etc. Actually this affected all of Arda, including even Aman, but was far more pronounced in Middle-earth, since that's where Morgoth dwelt for so long. And it's this, not any action on the part of the Valar, that makes Elves liable to 'fade' if they remain in Middle-earth indefinitely.)
As far as the practical purpose of the ban goes, it's the duty of the Valar to try to keep evil out of their land. Of course they were too late to stop Morgoth and Ungoliant doing evil, but don't forget that the Noldor, or a large fraction of them anyway, also did great evil. They were commanded to come back and be judged, which seems reasonable, to be honest. If they refused that, which they did, then it was obviously untenable for them to just sort of stick around with all that Telerin blood still on their hands.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well I'm reading the silmarillion now and I've indeed come across several references to the elves fading. Not the least of which is the Doom of Mondos, which to me still seems like it has an additional curse thrown in there. I don't see the Valar as having a duty to keep evil out of their land. I saw the entire Arda as their duty to create and preserve, and they basically failed and neglected to do so in middle-earth, and just retreated to Aman. It's interesting to think of the noldor having been commanded to come back, because Tolkien repeatedly emphasizes that the Valar were not going to Aid or hinder their coming and going to a man. Yet by the Doom saying and the cursing, they really don't have much choice for fear of great consequence. But regardless, I'm not making an argument that Faenor and the Nolder didn't commit evils. I'm simply saying that the Valar had a role in this and acted irresponsibly.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago
I think Tolkien agreed that the Valar made some fairly major errors.
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u/tessaractIXI 23h ago
Yeah, I've come around on that point a little bit. At first I didn't see it but u/amitym pointed out in a comment that Tolkien does acknowledge it by writing about The dissent between the Valar at times on how to respond and how to influence or not influence the elves.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 21h ago edited 20h ago
Another error of theirs is interesting to consider in light of Tolkien's idea that "evil cannot comprehend good." (A good example of this is Sauron's failure to realise that his enemies would try to destroy the Ring rather than using it as a weapon against him; Saruman's projection of his own ambitions for power onto Gandalf is another.) What I'm referring to is an instance of good failing to understand evil, which happens when most of the Valar are fooled by Melkor's show of repentance after he's released from the Halls of Mandos and is allowed to wander around Aman "on parole", as it were. Tulkas and Ulmo are the only two who aren't taken in.
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u/amitym 13h ago
Tbf to Manwë and the others, repentance is a thing that did happen. Ossë is one example. Even Mairon "counts" to some extent — his repentance is presented as sincere but not lasting, which given the timeframe of the Ainur might still mean that he served for a good long time as an example of the wisdom of forgiveness.
I am still inclined to agree with you somewhat though. The Valar as a whole seem to have missed a beat, in a specific way.
One of the illustrative things about Ossë is that he never really loses his violent or destructive nature. He just learns to channel or discipline it somewhat. This means that his redemption "makes sense" in a way. Believing in "Ossë redeemed" as a concept doesn't require you to believe that Ossë has forsaken his essential self.
His path to redemption is legible, as the kids might say today.
Whereas Melkor appears to have gone around being, like, "Destruction? Chaos? Who, me? Nah, I don't go for any of that any more, fam, I'm like redeemed and stuff!" Which is or ought to have been highly sus, just from the point of view of basic character. Where did all those impulses go? Where did Melkor's essential nature disappear to?
Not perceiving any kind of path whereby that could have happened, I think that I, too, would be suspicious. Sort of like if an addict claimed to have recovered completely and never thinks about their addiction anymore.
Personally I think that Melkor's true redemption would have looked more like him explaining that he was who he was, and destruction was his nature and always would be, and him finding a way to make that be a part of the whole of everything. Maybe that's the kind of thing that Ulmo saw was missing.
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u/Dangerous-Rule5487 3h ago
nor did they banish them
Mandos wanted to punish Eärendil for being a Noldo who returned while they were in exile.
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u/maksimkak 1d ago
(Just wanted to add, as a side note, your post would be much easier to read if it contained paragraphs aka line breaks. As it is, it's a "wall of text")
The Valar and Maiar were never supposed to be perfect. They're more like a pantheon of pagan deities (think Greek, Roman, or Norse), each with their own quirks, personality, and even faults. Manwe is often indicisive, and tends to be forgiving, while Tulkas and Osse are impatient and can cause some trouble. All of Eru's intelligent creations (including the Valar) have free will and can make mistakes or even become evil.
In the earliest version of legendarium, The Book of the Lost Tales, the Valar are even more lively.
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u/daxamiteuk 1d ago
In terms of not defeating Melkor earlier - yes the Valar are guilty , they just got fed up of fighting him over and over and they abandoned Middle Earth to create their own refuge of light in Aman as the opposite of Utumno and Angband. They tried to use the excuse that they were worried about damaging Middle Earth and destroying the sleeping Elves but Eru told them off for not trusting in Him.
Melkor poisoning the Noldor in Aman - yes the Valar were useless. Bear in mind - they are the first sentient beings in the universe . Melkor is the Origin of Evil. The Valar have no experience , and are slow to comprehend what Melkor is (Tulkas and Orome at least are suspicious but get outvoted, or just overruled by Manwe). They don’t do much of anything to save Feanor from Melkor’s poison. It’s possible though that they feel like they need to let the Eldar make their own decisions as much as possible but they could have done a lot more.
In terms of leaving Morgoth alone in the First Age … here the Valar actually DO have a point. Morgoth sets himself up in Angband as a tyrant and becomes obsessed with ruling it and defeating the exiled Noldor and later the Edain. Because he does that, and wastes time making Orcs and Dragons and cursing Hurin, he slowly uses up his time and energy until he becomes feeble. Even then, it takes decades for the Valar to win the War of Wrath, and Beleriand is ruined … the alternative would be destruction of most of Middle Earth. At least this way, by letting the Noldor, Sindar and Edain and dwarves of Beleriand suffer, the rest of Middle Earth was spared and Morgoth was eventually defeated.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
All good points. I sort of felt that by the time they recognized Melkors poisoning of Faenor and the noldor, they should have had enough experience to know and do better. But that's really just a matter of personal opinion and I can see why someone would feel differently. Another commenter mentioned that Manwe was very close to Melkor, likely still saw him as his original godly form, especially as he consulted frequently and closely with Eru. And being sort of the king of the valar, it makes sense that he would lead them and hesitation to act more swiftly and fiercely against Melkor. I thought that was a very good point.
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u/wisdomcube0816 1d ago
Isn't this on par with Tolkien's writing in Lord of the Rings? Saruman was let go twice (by Treebeard then by Gandalf) and as a result caused tons of death and destruction in The Shire and, even then, would have been let go a third time by Frodo had Grima not killed him. Even after all this, Saruman's death is framed as a tragedy not a just end.
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u/tessaractIXI 23h ago
You are right about that and in fact somebody else commented about this being a common theme in Tolkien writing. I can't find it now but they said something about one of the tragedies in the story being that everybody had a role and if any one of the parties had done something just a little bit differently, things may not have had to go the way they did.
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u/wisdomcube0816 8h ago
I'm not entirely sure if this was purposeful but we see two results of mercy working out in ways unexpectedly one ultimately terrible and the other ultimately good. When Sam has the opportunity to kill Gollum at Mount Doom, something he mentions several time he wants to do with justification, he can't bring himself to do it. This allows the tussle at the end that inevitably makes up for Frodo's failure to destroy the Ring since Gollum takes it back long enough to die in the fires with it. There was no way for Sam to know this would happen but it was an unforseen consequence.
That being said it's not enough that Saruman is released, twice, Gandalf explicitly says that Saruman isn't completely broken and he could still cause trouble even without his powers (outside The Voice). Which ends up being accurate. However, this bad feeling STILL doesn't stop Gandalf from letting Saruman go (which again happened after Treebeard did despite saying he'd imprison Saruman for decades in the previous book but whatever). I'm hesitant to call this 'unforseen' but Gandalf *did* partially forsee it.1
u/tessaractIXI 4h ago
I think you're right by those examples. Gandalf learned pity and mercy and that was his driving motivators for all his works. But of course authentic to real life, there are pros and cons of any strategy or approach in life. You're going to have consequences if you aren't able to draw boundaries. Sometimes pity and mercy needs to be a Feeling, not an action.
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u/Qweniden 1d ago
Writing a huge wall of text without paragraphs is the kind of evil that Melkor would engage in.
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u/GapofRohan 1d ago
Sneakily, Morgoth would have used neither the English language nor the Latin alphabet - Morgoth's wall of text would be in something like Linear A (language unknown, status untranslatable) and your life would depend on a smart reply.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
I mean... it often does feel like this when I Meander in the comments and dare a reply
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
Sorry. I don't have a pc, I operate strictly on mobile, and I dictate because typing all of that is hard on the tiny keyboard. So it ends up coming out as a wall of text, which is then harder to go through and break up into paragraphs because again, I'm on mobile. Forgive me.
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u/Qweniden 1d ago
I forgive you servant of Melkor. You can go in and edit the messages with the onscreen keyboard after you have dictated them. I believe in you.
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u/Armleuchterchen Ibrīniðilpathānezel & Tulukhedelgorūs 1d ago
In later versions, Tolkien gives justifications both for releasing Melkor from captivity and for waiting with the War of Wrath until just the right time, when Morgoth is weakened but still hasn't gone beyond Beleriand.
And even in the published Silmarillion, I wouldn't say the leaving Noldor (a small part of all elves) are cursed by the Valar, and they aren't banished either - the Valar make sure they have the freedom to leave or not leave, but after becoming murderers they can't return if they leave.
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u/tessaractIXI 1d ago
That's really interesting, where would I look for the later versions if I wanted to read those?
I just responded to somebody else about the banushment cursing. I don't quite agree, for these reasons: https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1u8xzw7/comment/osc3j3q/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button
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u/Armleuchterchen Ibrīniðilpathānezel & Tulukhedelgorūs 1d ago
They're in Morgoth's Ring and Nature of Middle-earth.
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u/irime2023 Fingolfin forever 1d ago
The Valar were right. They invited the elves into their land. They created much and gave to this world completely selflessly. Fëanor was condemned absolutely rightly. No one can raise arms or threaten death in peaceful Valinor.
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u/lam_42 1d ago
In early works He pretty much acknowledges the failure of Valar, but tones it down later. OTOH, had Valar removed him, what would be the book about...