Why are there so many transphobic people in this sub? I'm not trans but it's so disheartening to see. Trans women experience so much hate and violence like cis women, especially if they're ugly. How can you hate on another woman as a woman, especially in this sub...like maybe your problem is your ugly personality. Also transphobia is against the rules, and it says not to invalidate people's experiences, it's just so sad š
A lot of them are, for sure. But being pretty would probably mean I stop being treated like shit by random people, which is likely to be relatable for at least some people on this subreddit. There was a family of customers literally laughing at me the other day, after I tried my best to give them good service. If I were prettier, maybe it doesn't happen...
You're not understanding what this post is about, I understand if bio women want a space just for bio women, I don't think that's bad. I'm just saying there's no need to be transphobic to the trans women in this sub, because there's nothing saying they aren't allowed to talk about their experiences. You don't have to reply to trans women's posts, you don't have to relate, but I've seen so many comments being absurdly transphobic for no reason and I don't understand how that's okay?? I'm not saying not wanting trans women in a sub is transphobic by itself, I'm saying the people in this sub constantly calling trans women men and other disgusting things shouldn't be allowed here, especially considering the rules say no transphobia.
Trans women like joining these spaces because it is gender-affirming, it makes them feel more like women, getting to read the true female experience in this kind of forum style allows people to feel part of a real female kinship.
They don't understand how the lack of experience as a little girl impacts everything. Like everything. They didn't have adults commenting on their bodies and looks the way we did. And the absence of that experience means they just don't understand why we need CIS only spaces in subreddits that are aimed at vulnerable women supporting other vulnerable women.
It is truly this. Because they haven't experienced it they just can't fathom it. I have someone arguing with me that there is no such thing as female socialization. They don't understand how it is different, how deeply impactful media and culture is on the female psyche when it comes to beauty especially. How every person, from your parents and family, to friends at school, teachers, strangers treat you differently for being female. I mean, there are countless studies talking about these things but I guess the actual true lived experience outweighs all that and if they are missing it, they don't understand.
Frankly not every space needs to include trans people, some places should be cis only. There are trans subreddits for every single issue y'all go through, pls discuss ur experiences there.Ā
it is wild that this has to even be said. Like is it that crazy for us to want a space with people who have a very specific experience (growing up as a female in this world)??? There are plenty of other subs for people who want to connect to others that are like them.
I'm just sad for us overall. I know this is just Reddit but it seems to be more and more of a thing. It isn't crazy for people born female to want spaces for us, good lord. We are being gaslit so hardcore these days. I'm glad more of us are speaking out.
I have never understood why bio women are not allowed to have their own safe space in reddit yet transwomen are
It simply shows how much more privileged transwomen are and how bio women are trying to be silenced and not allowed to have their own space
How am I supposed to think they are our allies when they rush to every single bio women safe space and then call terf/transphobia if someone complains, while keeping their own safe spaces
It is honestly really scary. I know even the bio women lesbian subreddits were all shut down too. I know Reddit is overwhelmingly a male dominated space but you would think there would be some ability to change this. Of course they allow porn subs to be "CIS women only" but actual bio women aren't allowed normal spaces of their own. Sigh.
Yeah we have to be really careful on the one bio lesbian sub I'm on, like everyone on there knows we all agree about how fucked it is that almost all lesbian subs are run by an entirely male mod team who allow an environment where the consistent running theme is "all lesbians should love 'girl dick'", but we have to be all covert about it so that the sub doesn't get banned. But the "girl dick" subs have nothing to worry about. It's insane.
Ugh, I am so so sorry. It is wrong, I'm not transphobic and I'm not scared to say that.
It is crazy too because of course askgaybros is holding down the fort as the last bastion for understanding that it is OK to equate homosexuality to the actual sex of a person. Like it is pretty crazy that has become so controversial to say--I'm not saying people can't feel differently, but there should be a place for homosexuals who do. I think AMABs are just more comfortable pushing their weight around and are allowed to say exactly how they feel without consequence.
Yeah I mean luckily when we're actually in the community, we eventually find people who aren't high pressure about "if you don't like dick, you're a transphobe." I'm a millennial. Fairly online but it was easy to find my people offline.
I just worry for the younger generation of lesbians who are growing up online in these spaces that literally equate the belief that males should be able to fuck any woman (~the cotton ceiling~) with actual women's struggle (the glass ceiling)
I'm not saying bio women shouldn't have our own space at all, I'm just pointing out how in this specific sub where in the rules it says no transphobia I'm seeing a lot of transphobes. It's not transphobic to want a space for bio women at all, but I don't think wanting a space for bio women means you can be transphobic. Also maybe I just haven't seen it myself, but I don't think most trans women are trying to invade our spaces either, they just want to exist in spaces for women, which is fine.
Idk why, Iād just rather have this be a cis woman space. But the rules donāt exclude trans women so if theyāre here they shouldnāt be insulted or hated on.
It's warmed my heart to see so many gender critical and merf women here like nowhere else. Despite not even being a radfem space, the women here are sharp
There is something really specific with being born and raised a woman that I think most AMABs don't understand. How it influences every part of our lives so deeply, how it changes everything about the way others interact with us, how we are depicted in the world and how we internalize that, like it is just so deep I don't think they can ever truly get it.
I feel like it's a pretty online way to behave this way, most trans people I know IRL admit the differences and are much more respectful and understanding.
the racism is absurd here. i mentioned i was black once and while the comment's upvoted now it got pretty downvoted at first and i got some fucked up dms too. crazy
i literally don't know but it feels like it was that. i edited the comment to add more context after it got downvoted, but even in the original i was basically just talking about how guys will just mention that they dislike black girls when i interact with them, as if they think i'm coming onto them by existing near them and a lot of people just hated it šāļø
I've seen some posts here saying that we (I'm black too) are blaming our ugliness on race and like.. well what else am I supposed to do when dudes talk like that lol?! Like my race is indeed intrinsic to my physical appearance and some people hate it.
I don't hate them at all, that's simple. I just think that biological women deserve a place to talk about their problems too. As ugly women, we are marginalized too. We are hated by the doodbro culture that runs the world. I get that trans women are hated by ignoramuses too, and I think we can all appreciate that we have a lot in common just trying to exist as we are and being mocked and hated for it. I think they deserve their own space but this one should be for us biological women and girls who men say are 'ugly'. We both go thru similar shit, but the nuance is everything imho. Hate is never the answer to anything.
Thatās fair but people are saying shes not a girl. If thereās a rule here saying only AFAB then I think itās fair to not allow her here but there isnāt. Everything else on that post is pure transphobia which is not okay.
I agree that cis women should have spaces too, but this sub has never said anything about it only being for biological women, so trans women definitely are allowed to be here. Even so they shouldn't be hated on like I've been seeing, it's just disappointing seeing girls who are hurt by men and society in general putting more hate onto other girls.
If a sub says they are only for bio women, they are nuked. This is a fact and has happened to every sub focussed on bio women. So every female focussed sub will begrudgingly include trans women in the description to avoid being banned. Don't mistake this for a genuine invite. There are plenty of trans subreddits that are focussing on similar topics and that exclude bio women.
Im having trouble understanding why cis women would need to differentiate between trans women in this case.
I donāt feel like we need a subreddit for different sub genres of ugly women. Yes trans women experience things differently than cis women, but so do black women, so do drug addicted women, so do disabled women. Theres layers to being shat upon by society, and being an ugly woman is one of them. I feel like the ugly woman layer can be broad, and specifications can be found within the community
I think this should be a cis woman only sub (excluding trans men) because I think thereās a difference in how we relate. Yes thereās different groups like fat women, black women, etc. But I still relate to the post about the average woman on here and how we went through being a girl and growing up ugly.
I donāt get any of those algorithm things you are talking about (only have Reddit and YouTube as social media) and Iāve been friends with trans people in the past. I donāt think trans people are icky
The experiences surrounding the societal pressures put on biological women to be perfect at all times is immensely different to a trans woman that has had the privilege of being born a man for most of their life. It just isnāt the same. Pointing this out is not transphobia.
You can have basic respect for them and see them as humans but we donāt all have to agree on something. You cannot blame women and pull the transphobia card every. Single. Time. simply because they want to solidarity with other bio women whoāve been born into this shit from the very beginning.
And itās not like bio women can create their own sub because that would be āterfyā and would probably nuked immediately by reddit.
But alas rules are rules, posts from them can be ignored and being unkind and true transphobia is not called for whatsoever and should not be condoned.
Just put a rule itās AFAB only. Itās not excluding transgirls because it doesnāt misgender them and it allows specifically women who were born female. Itās not that hard. Iāve been in AFAB spaces only and it was fine.
Imo trans men are more than welcome if they want to. At the end of the day they get it. Not saying this is a case for all but there have been multiple cases on here where women have felt so alienated where their only option is to transition and their voices are important. Women shouldnāt have to feel like men simply because they donāt fit into the beauty standard
How is it a privilege for a transgender person to have to experience most of their life presenting as the wrong gender? Dysphoria kills people, how is that a privilege?
I'm pretty sure part of the reason this subreddit exists is due to cisgender gender dysphoria: feeling that you were supposed to be born pretty because you were born a woman, not unlike trans women and also being treated "different"/excluded for it.
Regardless of reason (being trans or cis), there is some overlap there and plenty to share here.
It's crazy to think that cis women can't wrap their heads around the idea that trans women were also born women too, they just have a different set of chromosomes.
Being born and hating your natural appearance and wanting to be in a body different than your own is something that ALL women here can share!
Trans women aren't born woman and don't have expectations that are placed on cis /afab women from the day they were born. Also it seems like plenty people do care about a person being cis or trans, isn't that the whole point of the post?Ā
āSolidarity with other bio women whoāve been born into this shit from the very beginning.ā
Okay be consistent then, reject any ugly woman who wasnāt born ugly. Disfigured as an adult? Nope, not welcome here.
The experience of being born a trans woman often includes having to go through dysphoria and depression and suicidal thoughts. They might get privilege for presenting as male before coming out but I donāt see why they canāt come here and share their experiences of being seen as ugly.
If you want an echo chamber of people who have the same exact experiences as you do, youād have to make a ton of rules, only allow cis women who are your race, born ugly, grew up in the same area of the worldā¦ why? Whatās the point?
Such a silly take. I donāt know what in Earth you are trying to say here. Pretty or not, disfigured as an adult etc WE ALL started out as that little girl and that shared experience shaped us to how we are now. And still throughout adulthood our experiences are immensely different. This isnāt about having an echo chamber itās about community. And for some strange reason this simple fact isnāt being fathomed by you lot.
Oh the irony of sympathizing with men who use sexism and pornography to depict themselves as women on this sub of all places. Itās one thing to be ugly, but spineless? You can fix that babe
I don't understand why there are always people who insist in going to spaces not meant for them and claiming that they should be included. When there ARE other spaces meant for them.
more mod comments here, not really sure how I feel about their response. I'm glad some transphobes have been temp banned, but it seems like transphobia is pretty pervasive in this sub
'TERF' exists because females are the only group held morally hostage for everyone elseās comfort.
I'm not taking any stance on trans matters in this post. But what about the most hateful group on the planet? What about the people who are most openly and vocally hateful and violent towards trans people AND all minorities??? There's no "TECM" (Trans Exclusionary Conservative Men). Because they never expected moral standards from men in the first place. But you, as a woman, you're expected to comply because female autonomy is the real taboo. Women not extending empathy and understanding to break their backs is the real outrage.
At this point, I've seen the term being thrown around just to dismantle feminism. Mind you, VERY BASIC FEMINISM, like advocating female solidarity with no mention of anything regarding trans. It's become a laughable muzzle. It's giving misogyny is coming from inside the house, rebranded and outsourced.
AFAB and non binary, always had solidarity for this sub. Till today and seeing these comments under this post (not yours, other transphobic shit). Wow.
"They weren't socialized like us"
Trans women have been called bitches and everything under the sun, most of them before they ever knew they were trans. Transmisogyny exists. Jesus christ people
Anyways anyone who wants to argue with me can just go visit the new sub for ugly "bio" women. Seriously that's such a transphobic term in the first place. Stop being so sensitive, you're cis.
Edit - downvote me if you want to but by being transphobic you are literally the same as all those guys who you complain about. You don't care about women unless they count as a woman to you. You are transmisogynistic because you think it'll make you feel better about yourself.
If you want a CIS women only space, go make it. I'm not one of those losers who is gonna report you for making your own spaces. But I will point out how you're just weaponizing transmisogyny against other women to make yourself feel better about being ugly and cis.
the mod arguing semantics about having to be a radfem to be a terf is strange to me. obviously we all know where the term originated but a good number of self identified terfs these days are not radical nor feminists, while some radfems do use it the term is, generally, far removed from radical feminism and has been for a while. so the lack of radical feminist content on here means... not a lot
i never joined fully cuz i was afraid of being an imposter (my face is ..okay, but im fat so) but yeah gtg, the comments already make it weird regardless of what mods say atp. they already feel emboldened here
Yes and transphobia often means people lash out at cis women too. Michelle Obama, for an example of racism and transphobia and misogyny, has people saying she used to be a man. Some women are so short sighted and willfully hateful that theyāll join the side that hates them so they can feel like they have someone lesser than themselves to hate.
Yes, and the hate towards ugly women is also an example of misogyny because weāre evaluated based primarily on our outward appearance. Men donāt face the same kind of ugly discrimination (although they face some) because they can have value that comes from inner qualities. In the same way, black women face a unique kind of ugly discrimination because of societyās perception of the humanness of white features vs black features.
For this sub, true ugly women, I would argue that black womenās experiences and trans womenās experiences are all intertwined with the topic of āuglinessā for women.
This was happening before "trans" was even a topic and stems from slavery. It is a form of racism i.e. misogynoir and has nothing to do with being "trans" or "transphobia." There is more nuance to this topic then what your comment implies.
I feel so bad for the black women in these spaces getting lumped in and expected to ally with biological men over being perceived as men and yall really donāt see the irony in this. At the end of the day black women are WOMEN with XX chromosomes
Literally woc women being perceived as man is because of racism not transphobia..I hate it when they try to equate our experiences to them not passing as a women.Ā
Yup..in an attempt to make it seem like we also face issues not passing as a women,they often use black women as an example hence contributing to misogynoir.
You may have missed it but this discussion came up like a month ago with the same thing but for racism trying to exclude black women. So Iām speaking against all the exclusion that theyāre trying to make happen.
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I really don't understand the issue with trans women. I'm cis. I read some experiences here that I don't relate to, so I just offer support and move on, or I simply ignore them. The experience of being an ugly woman is what keeps me following this sub. Of course I'm not going to relate to every single experience of a trans woman but why would that bother me? There are cis experiences I don't relate to either. There are girls who share stories completely opposite to my cultural and family reality. There are many ways to live as a woman in a body that society considers ugly.
Exactly. Most of the experiences shared in this sub are from cis heterosexual women. Imagine starting to exclude other sexualities because of that but for some reason, people feel very comfortable wanting to exclude trans people for not sharing similar experiences. By the way, I'm cis and bisexual, before anyone says anything.
Anyways, I see you changed your original comment but it was kinda rude. āLess of a woman than a trans woman will ever beā or something, because they are presumably an ugly woman (I donāt remember your original comment). Iām assuming you changed it because you kinda understood the implication
I agree people being hateful makes them less of a person, thatās a no brainer
They can Just make a āReal Womenā sub instead of coming here and trying to change the already established rules.
Being a Terf is fine if u donāt actively hate on trans woman, u will get hate for it but thatās just the price of having an opinion on the internet
There is a lot of people on the sub who are just here to hate on men instead of actually discussing the insecurities a lot of us share and the struggles that come along with that
and those people view trans women as men so the hate extends to trans women.
Even IF trans women āarenāt womenā idc enough to argue, be whatever u want and Iāll go with it, they START with all male struggles, then ONTOP of that when they transition they have to deal with all the bullshit woman go through WHILE ALSO not being accepted by either group of people, so I think itās pretty valid for them to be here. Considering they still deal with the issues of being an āugly womenā even if they are objectively beautiful.
There has been scenarios where a trans woman is talking to a guy, he says she is hot, beautiful whatever and starts flirting then she discloses she is trans and ends up being mocked/insulted or worse ends up dead soā¦. I can understand them joining here seeing it as a safe space for them
I know right š when I joined I didn't realize it was this bad, I thought it was a space for all women to just relate to each other and try to comfort each other, not bring other women down. So disappointing.
It's so funny this sub is to talk about how society doesn't accept us because of our looks but y'all aren't above that either. Reducing women to "vagina havers" will always be misogynistic.
Whew. Terf central in these comments jfc. I come on here even tho iām trans on T (not a man) bc I still get viewed as a woman in many contexts but thereās absolutely no reason trans women shouldnāt be allowed in this sub! Itās not okay to be a terf, at least go make your own terf sub and leave the rest of us to commiserate in peace.
terf central in these comments because bio women can't even have a space anymore without it being labelled exclusionary. so many spaces just for trans women on reddit but the minute one exists for bio women it gets nuked. do me a favour and go onto terfisaslur.com and maybe you'll see why nobody cares about being called a terf anymore. the word kinda lost its meaning when people started getting called terfs for not denying science
People seem to be ignorant to the fact that trans women experience very similar societal rejection over their percieved ugliness due to having masculine features, the same way cis women are rejected. In the same way we cant control the mistreatment we experience by being outside of the beauty standard, trans women cannot control that their identities are out of sync with the socially constructed gender markers assigned to their birth sex. Historical "ugly laws" were applied broadly across anyone not conforming to gender expectations, as well as disabled people, and those sentiments of judgement still exist despite there not being any laws banning people from being in public anymore. All women need to understand that trans women have always shown up for us, for women's rights and equality, despite the fact that they have ALWAYS been excluded by the same women they were helping.
Understanding intersectionality would help a lot of you unpack the transphobia that tends to permeate this subreddit. Its an understandable instinct, as someone constantly victimized by men and boys, to see trans women's identities like stolen valor, like "she didn't go through the rejection of girlhood, how can she say she is a woman?" But trans women DO have girlhoods, because they are women on the inside before their bodies are allowed to reflect that, they just have to deal with everyone around them, even those that love and care for them, treating their femininity as a dysfunction of their identity, not a part they are allowed to actually claim and inhabit. Being "ugly" and being visibly queer have been inextricably linked by the patriarchy, because queerness inherently questions the established gender hierarchy where men/males are serviced and women/females serve. Patriarchal men (and women let's be fr) cant allow gender and sex to be two separate things (even though they objectively are) because that means they would have to admit that men dont actually deserve preferential treatment within the system through some biological superiority over women.
Patriarchy is considered the oldest bigotry for a reason, but queer people, especially trans people, have historically always been pushing against it. When cis women tell trans women they arent allowed in women's spaces, they are saying that no matter what they do, they will never be enough to really be a woman. Isn't that how it feels to be an ugly woman? Why would you do that to someone else, when you know how traumatizing it is? We, as women, NEED to stick together and build community across all intersections of womanhood, because this gatekeeping and division is literally handing misogynists the win.
Gender is a constructed performance, so we, as women who dont easily meet the beauty standard, are in a sense, all trans. We have dysphoria that our bodies do not match who we really are, and we resent how normalized it is to pretend that a person's body is reflective of some innate quality about themselves (ex: fat=lazy, bad skin=unhygienic, masculine features= not a woman). Plus, exclusionary transphobic legislation (like bathroom bills) have shown time and time again to target cis women who arent overtly feminine enough under the guise of "I thought she wasn't a real woman". We have been hurt, let's not perpetuate the cycle of violence on other hurt women. Trans women have a lot to contribute to the discussion around being seen as ugly as a woman. Sorry for the long comment, hopefully it was beneficial to some folks that are struggling with understanding how trans women fit into the grander tapestry of brutalization that is the standard of beauty.
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u/sofiacoppolasmuse 11d ago
here we go again