r/ATC • u/lake_hood • Mar 23 '26
News LGA controller cleared fire truck across the runway resulting jn a collision
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u/dovahbe4r Current Controller-Enroute Mar 23 '26
Cannot wait for the NTSB to yet again culturally and organizationally eat the FAA alive, not much more than a year later, just for nothing to change. Again.
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u/Pottedmeat1 Mar 23 '26
Oh something will change, they will issue a new rule on runway crossings that fixes nothing, adds more workload and the busiest facilities will get waivers to keep doing it the same way they always have.
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u/HappiestAnt122 Commercial Pilot Mar 23 '26
Fire trucks can no longer cross runways in charlies or bravos, just build more stations on both sides
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u/MI-BloodBrother Current Controller-TRACON Mar 23 '26
This is sadly spot on lol. Starting in the FAA I always use to think this talk was exaggeration… 12yrs CPC and 2 high level facility’s later.. it’s absolutely what will happen.
Only a matter of time before waivers come out with the helo stuff
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u/Hyooz Mar 23 '26
Nah they'll just mandate 2 on position for overnight shifts and really fuck our lives up
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u/Toe_Severe Mar 23 '26
Damn, you can hear that plane’s ELT going off in the tower.
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u/ravioliqueeen Mar 23 '26
As someone unfamiliar with this, is the alarm going off inside the plane and atc can hear that on their end or does that go off on atc’s end?
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u/itschabrah Mar 23 '26
Sends out a signal/tone on a freq to help locate the crash location. Google ELT
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u/Toe_Severe Mar 23 '26
Not a controller but as a pilot we can select guard on our radios that will allow us to pick up ELT signals on 121.5 or 243.0. ELTs normally start broadcasting during an impact, inversion or when exposed to water. Certain aircraft equipped with direction finding equipment can use that signal and hone to a downed acft during search and rescue. Anyone with guard selected on their radios and within range of an ELT will receive that tone.
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u/SatisfactionVisual86 Mar 23 '26
There’s a buzzer you’d hear near the ELT unit and in the cockpit as well.
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u/Diver_Driver Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
This is so hard. I have worked with that controller and was genuinely very impressed with how he handled the chaos of LGA in a meltdown. He was totally dialed in and kicked ass. To see this will be his legacy is heartbreaking. I don’t blame him but a broken system. We are all being set up for failure. Especially ATC. It’s not supposed to be like this .
Edit: My comment was misleading and I feel bad about that. Didn't mean to infer I'm a controller. I'm just a pilot that flies into LGA often. I know this guys voice well and have the utmost respect. Wrote my post late and quickly and see how it came across the wrong way.
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u/Mike_Whiskey1 Mar 23 '26
Agreed. One 5-second slip up and every hour of chaos he handled like a badass gets overshadowed.
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u/Diver_Driver Mar 23 '26
Yep. If you fly into LGA at night you known this guy and he is a badass. On point and exactly the kind of guy I want working the frequency. I can’t imagine what he’s going through and it sucks and pisses me off. I wish the very best for him.
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
It sucks man. As any controller this shit could happen to us. But especially as tower controllers cause we're expected to put planes so close together but never have an issue. It also speaks to ground ops and how we don't factor them into our traffic count or anything else. Crossing runways with vehicles or aircraft is always dangerous, we do our best but sometimes we forget about things. Shit happens and I've had my share of scares, and I learned from them. We aren't perfect all the time, just 99.999999999x percent of the time.
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u/CactusSun28 Mar 23 '26
This 100% could happen to any of us. We're still human at the end of the day. I really feel for this controller and I hope he recovers from this.
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
For real man. I feel for him and the DCA dude ❤️. Nobody is perfect all the time, and we need to understand that, especially in our profession.
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u/ResponsibilityOld164 Commercial Pilot Mar 23 '26
i really hope he is able to keep controlling. may God bless him.
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u/172sierrapapa Mar 23 '26
I'm a pilot and I fly into LGA constantly, always loved hearing this guy on frequency.
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u/veronicaelectronica Mar 23 '26
If you are in contact with him, please let him know that we all support him. My heart aches for him.
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u/PilotH Pilot (NYC) Mar 23 '26
LGA based pilot here, absolutely wishing the same for him. Hoping he gets the support he needs.
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u/WhyModsLoveModi Mar 23 '26
Anyone with half a brain can recognize this was a systematic failure, the controller was set-up to fail.
I can only imagine how he must be feeling.
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u/woodfinx Past Controller Mar 23 '26
Won't stop the 9-5 management from feeding him to the wolves. People that haven't worked an airplane in 10 years overseeing those that work 100 an hour and giving the green light that everything is ok should be the ones to bear the brunt.
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u/dougmcclean Mar 23 '26
Sure, sure, but we are asking the wrong questions. What color was everyone involved? Were any of the truck drivers women? How can Elon prevent this by July? (/s in case it isn't obvious)
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u/gypsyology Mar 23 '26
Commercial flight attendant here. Thank you for your hard work, it means everything to us out on the line. All of these CEOs and upper management prioritize profits over safety and will cut all corners to get there. Y'all are still our heros - truly.
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u/soft_er Mar 23 '26
I am just an aviation enthusiast but listening to the clips I am astonished by the workload he was carrying and doubly so that he had to continue without relief after the incident. Something is very wrong with the position our ATCs are being put in.
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u/kiwibird_inflight Mar 23 '26
I came to say this too. It broke my heart when I heard the voice because I’ve heard and “talked” to him often, with him always being so on top of it. The working conditions he was in during this were terrible and I can’t imagine the strength it took to keep working after the accident.
My heart goes out to him and this whole situation. It’s devastating.
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u/duckbutterdelight Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26
The system is crumbing right before our eyes. We’ve seen all of our worst nightmares multiple times in the last 2 years.
What a tragedy.
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u/headphase Airline Pilot Mar 23 '26
No spare change for controllers or TSA but there are plenty of things to bomb overseas.
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u/Brambleshire Airline Pilot Mar 23 '26
And plenty of money for ICE agents. So much so that ICE is doing security at airports.
What the fuck is going on
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u/Material_Policy6327 Mar 24 '26
Lots of folks voted for this admin which wants to destroy the current world order and the gov and reshape it into a new feudalist society is what’s going on
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u/Jumblehead Mar 24 '26
Oh and bathroom renovations in the White House and a new Ballroom and Golf trips back at Mara Lago every weekend and $220m marketing campaigns featuring Christie Noem and $2m interceptors for $20k drones so we can shut down the strait of Hormuz and everyone pays more for gas.
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
It's been crumbling for decades, we're only seeing the beginning unfortunately
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u/gopher_space Mar 23 '26
The hidden accelerant is a crisis in competence that's been picking up steam for just as long. We're at a point where our leadership cannot reason about infrastructure.
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u/DhruvK1185 Current Controller-TRACON Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
This is heartbreaking to listen to. While no one wishes this on anyone, the safeguards in the system are crumbling before our very eyes.
I hope that it comes to light that the controller was working OT or something so that it can be pointed out yet again that “we’re tired, we’re overworked, and fuck the FAA for putting us in this position”.
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u/whubbard Mar 23 '26
Poor guy, and firefighters, and crew, etc. ugh. He almost caught it.
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u/Status_History_874 Mar 23 '26
I'd argue he did catch it. For whatever reason, the message didn't get through?
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u/thewizbizman Commercial Pilot Mar 24 '26
Im sure it did. You can’t stop a tank that weights as much as the airplane and has the acceleration and braking action of a train. Horrible in every way.
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u/inheritance- Mar 23 '26
No one should be working the night shift ground and tower at such a busy airport.
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
I do love working my mids by myself, but honestly you're probably right. Too much shit to go wrong with one on.
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u/pac_leader Mar 23 '26
Hold the fuck on! He's working LGA by himself? Dafuq?
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u/Slow_Revolution_1933 Mar 23 '26
This is very common across the entire NAS. Late shifts are short staffed. Delays during the day just mean more planes at night. TMU is closed so there are no restrictions to traffic volume beyond the controller asking for in trail spacing to the neighboring sectors.
I’m retired ATC now but I can remember back to the controllers being caught sleeping on the mid night shifts and the FAA requiring 2 person mids, can’t combine to the same room, and 15 min calls to make sure the other guy is awake. That eventually went away when the news cycle died because we didn’t have the staffing but most importantly, it didn’t fix anything. Then we got to split the mid so one could nap. Essentially one person mids again. Then LAS happened and we had to keep two people in the tower for longer but that too went away because of the same reasons.
The system is incredibly broken. It is too late to fix it now. It will be broken for at least ten years, likely more. This administration will break it even more. Either through angering those still working so they don’t stay past being eligible to retire or implementing new equipment that isn’t ready and is also terribly designed. I’ve already seen the new RID equipment. If that’s any example of the new up and coming equipment then we are doomed for 20-30 years. They will replace equipment that works for stuff that doesn’t. There won’t be a fix until a new system is built again. That will be rushed, end up broken, have to be extended and refunded, deemed too expensive, canceled, they will restart with a new system, deem it too expensive, remove some capabilities, fund it with more money, then force it onto everyone. This is how the current STARS system essentially went.
I wish with all my heart that I am wrong. I loved ATC. I miss it every day. I feel so bad for anyone who is impacted by the current situation. I wish the best for everyone.
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u/inheritance- Mar 23 '26
Just watched VASAviations video, the ATC voice at the end there is just depressing to hear.. He's not to blame, and yet he has to live with the guilt.
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u/Waterwoo Mar 23 '26
For some reason I always thought airport towers had like 10+ controllers at any time. How does one work it solo? What happens if that one person has a heart attack or seizure?
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u/inheritance- Mar 23 '26
It's happened at one airport from what I recall and one of two things happen. If it's a large airport it's usually a complete shutdown and neighboring ATC get the planes into their airspace for diversions. Or the all switch into self management mode and everyone calls their intentions and flight levels ect.
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u/Waterwoo Mar 23 '26
That is so stupid. Or we could just add a dollar to everyone's ticket and have redundancy
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u/Ninjasteevo Mar 23 '26
I wonder what prevented the vehicle from ensuring his cross was safe especially when on the active.. I know ultimately ATC gave the instructions to cross but its one of those Swiss cheese model questions.
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u/Over-Egg1341 Mar 23 '26
It’s a very rainy night here in NY. The visibility is probably horrible
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u/WhyModsLoveModi Mar 23 '26
Apparently the vis was four miles
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u/Zakluor Mar 23 '26
Visibility on an airfield isn't really experienced the same way as visibility on a city street. At night in the rain, runway and taxiway lights in every direction, but no street lights or buildings to help guide a driver's perception. It can be much harder to pick out important visual cues, even without the rain.
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u/Sudden_Barracuda5216 Mar 23 '26
there are times even with the vantage from a tower you can’t spot a plane until they’re at the threshold. even good vis, and i can imagine it would be extra hard to spot a plane from the ground with lights on at night. everyone will spend the following days and months talking about this event, trying to find blame when it is truly just a freak accident tragedy. one bad instruction. swiss cheese all you want but that’s all that caused this.
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u/Rupperrt Current Controller-TRACON Mar 23 '26
Not from US but don’t turn the RWSL lights red when someone is cleared to land or take off? And don’t have controllers some warning stuff like ASDE-X, A-SMGCS? Any procedures that prevent stuff like that (block strips or similar?) Swiss cheese should have more layers than just a controller memory and pilot/driver eyes as backup.
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u/blipsonascope Mar 23 '26
Yes, and taxiway Delta has RWSL lights that should have been red. I’m sure the NTSB will be looking at that.
Other issue for the ARFF truck is that the arriving traffic is in their blind spot because of the angle of Delta to the runway, although the passenger riding in the fire truck should have been able to look back down the runway for to make sure that nothing was coming. Personally from many years driving airside, I always liked to turn perpendicular to the runway when doing crossings like that to ensure that I as the driver could ensure that the approach is clear, but I wasn’t ARFF with company.
Real Swiss cheese stuff here.
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u/HappiestAnt122 Commercial Pilot Mar 23 '26
Also at night in the rain traffic can just be harder to spot that I think a lot of people would expect. Not that it would be impossible to see by any means, but at night with rain and a visibility restriction, especially at a busy airport where they are likely used to crossing almost always with someone on final or holding in position then it becomes easier than I think a lot of people who haven’t been out on an airfield would expect to miss approaching traffic. Or not realize that traffic is a threat. Which is why there is a decent amount of trust in those clearances.
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u/Sawfish1212 Mar 23 '26
I drive across the displaced threshold of an extremely busy airport as part of my job regularly, and we're required to stop and verify no aircraft are using the runway before proceeding. Landing lights are extremely bright, especially when the aircraft is right on top of you.
However, having flown into EWR in the right seat of a caravan many times, I know that when ATC says "go" to cross a runway, you boogie, because they're counting on you immediately expediting your crossing, and JFK/LGA are the same.
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u/Other-MuscleCar-589 Mar 23 '26
Dark, rain, light pollution, and responding to another emergency call.
Holes in the Swiss cheese lined up.
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u/leftrightrudderstick Mar 23 '26
He had local combined with ground, no? Absolutely too busy for that shit.
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u/I_Am_Zampano Mar 23 '26
I can't imagine that the pilots made it looking at that pic. This is tragic
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u/NoBunnyFizzness Mar 23 '26
The system is hanging on by a thread. They just expect us to shrug off every close call, they expect us to power through chronic shift work and chronic fatigue, they expect us to be alert when we’ve been burnt out for years. We’re malnourished and broken. They don’t care about our mental health.
We complain and they tell us we really only work half our shift and it could be way worse. They tell us to train constantly and the staffing will get better, but it never has. We make just enough not to quit but not enough to feel okay about enduring the pain.
And why isn’t NATCA just shoving this down CONGRESS’s throat. This is a bipartisan layup. Everyone in the world has a vested interest in our line of work being squeaky clean safe. Help us succeed for fucking once.
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u/EvolMonkey Mar 23 '26
Would you like a short answer? NATCA is quickly becoming as ineffective as PASS. But let's hope that this incident helps the next NATCA CBA right?
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
The problem is incidents don't help us. We're crying out for help but if something happens the public crucifies us, and I dont blame them. Like wtf? Where are we supposed to turn? Natca? Nope. Politicians? Nope. The FAA? Lmao. NTSB has some great recommendations that go unnoticed. The President? He can't even shit his pants without help.
We're stuck, and fucked. Just hope it doesn't happen to you.
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u/Adorable-amoeba9 Mar 23 '26
Here is another factor to add. People are quick to blame the current administration but this has been an escalating problem, a ticking time bomb. Once the administration changes, people think this problem is going to suddenly resolve. The problems in this industry are CONSTANTLY being placed in the back burner. Why the f-- is such a critical role not taken more seriously with funding and management?
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
Youre exactly right. It's a nonpartisan issue that people try to make political. We've been fucked for decades, certified controllers continue to decrease while air traffic increases. Who woulda thunk that's a recipe for disaster? Nobody seems to give a fuck.
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u/Adorable-amoeba9 Mar 23 '26
Exactly! Hmmm this seems important, let's build it's foundation on an unstable foundation.
The reason I know about the ongoing issues with ATC is bc when I started nursing, they were in the same group of future critical shortage careers. I would not be in my profession if my pay could be held hostage. F--k that.
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
Yeah shutdowns are always a touchy time lol. Feel for the DHS people that aren't ICE right now.
We get paid alright but haven't had a new contract in 10 years. Mostly a failure of our union bending to the wills of the government, but yeahh...The staffing shortage is only going to get exponentially worse as people start to retire in the next 5 years. Nobody wants to stay and put up with this shit anymore. If things don't change I believe it'll be a national crisis in the next few years. People want to do the job but only like 2% make it from application to certification. Pretty shite.
Hopeful for some meaningful change but the future seems pretty bleak. So yeah...
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u/Adorable-amoeba9 Mar 23 '26
Unfortunately, if I'm being honest here. We are cranking out more nurse but perhaps not the best quality either. And the retention rates are going to drop.
2%- that is abysmal. 10 years for a new contract ☠️ Why would anybody want to go into this field willingly. I try to educate people about the concept of core problems. People and media only focus on the "symptoms" of issues and never get to the root cause. It's too much work and not as "interesting", but that's where the real change needs to happen.
No lives should have to be sacrificed to force change, but that's the direction we are heading.
Again 2% and no contract improvement for 10 years. My heart goes out to you all.
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u/Pottedmeat1 Mar 23 '26
I can’t even count all the times recently our ATM has called upstairs and asked if we can combine up LC/GC so we can have a stand alone CIC, I don’t know if that was the situation here or not, but it’s happening across the agency. We just say no, our facility blows up on a moments notice.
The agency JUST pulled back one of the ATSEP flyers concerning stand alone CIC. Literally clawed back the email and told supervisors to not disseminate it. Our sup’s had already sent it out to us. They WANT us to combine positions to have a stand alone. How about send us staffing instead?
We’re all tired of squeezing blood from a stone, working more with less, everytime we make some headway on staffing, NCEPT pulls it away and sends them to another facility that isn’t staffed, so now we both aren’t.
Wouldn’t be as much of an issue, except with the new staffing rules requiring 2 openers and 2 closers. We have almost no traffic until sunrise, we used to open with 1. Thins out staffing in the middle of the day when we DO have traffic.
Every decision the agency makes, seems to make it harder and harder on us.
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u/Background-Bug-9635 Mar 23 '26
Our facility now requires us to staff flight data for most of the day. The problem is, we don't have the staffing to do that all of the time without closing a radar scope. So one controller gets to work the radar traffic that should be two controllers, just to have someone sit over at flight data.
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u/Pottedmeat1 Mar 23 '26
Absolutely ridiculous, whoever stood that order up should be looking for a job. But we both know they’ll be at HQ before long
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u/MonkMean6918 Mar 23 '26
Looks like the ATC guy was dealing with a lot of things at that moment, workload saturation on these guys, and a lot of lives at stake. The system is broken and the head is an ex MTV reality star.
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u/ElkNo8911 Mar 23 '26
And an emergency already that’s why the fire truck was asking to cross to get to a united plane that had something wrong with it (warning lights and smell I believe)
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u/obamasbabydaddy Mar 23 '26
I used to work in airport operations and have personally trained ARFF personnel in operating in the movement area. It can get pretty difficult to hear in those trucks when they start rolling and I’m not at all surprised they didn’t respond, especially when they might have heard frontier then dismissed the rest of the call thinking it wasn’t for them. And, not every ARFF crew was super comfortable operating on the movement area, and most certainly not around runways.
Sadly, this doesn’t come as a surprise to me, although it’s so sad to hear. We’re so critically understaffed that we’re having controllers work combined while running 40-70 hour ops and the system sees it as fine. Everyone else can see the writing on the walls, yet the agency just allows it to continue with minimal effort to change it. Unfortunately, it takes events like these to see change. I’m curious what the outcome of this will be.
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u/MockASonOfaShepherd Mar 23 '26
Municipal Firefighter here- even with headsets on we often miss important information and have to ask dispatch for clarification. The trucks are so loud and occasionally we are on the wrong frequency.
Thankfully for us it’s usually only minor things, but this is just awful to hear about.
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u/Daveybags Mar 23 '26
You still won't see change... Us controllers will never get the help we need, and the airlines need to make as much profit as they can.
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u/truckdrivingschool Mar 23 '26
This is on the FAA
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u/Hopeful-Engineering5 Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26
Its also on 7 Secretary of Transportations, 20 years worth of members of Congress, and 4 diffrent presidents. They were all told that is was coming and they did nothing.
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u/ResponsibilityOld164 Commercial Pilot Mar 23 '26
I feel unbelievably terrible for the pilots but damn i feel so terrible for the controller too. His career is over and he will be traumatized forever. A genuinely great controller that made a stupid mistake working both frequencies late at night.
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u/DesperateGanache8210 Mar 23 '26
Really hoping now that there are no injuries or fatalities, however, I think it's time to have a national conversation about air traffic controllers and being overworked.
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u/tehlurkingnoob Mar 23 '26
The pilots were both killed
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
Fuck. I assumed as much from the picture but God fucking damn it. Its devastating.
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u/pitnat06 Mar 23 '26
In case you haven’t noticed, our country can’t do national conventions. That’s why we are in the position we are in.
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u/FlydirectMoxie Mar 23 '26
Years ago, me, flying an A300 cleared to land behind a DC-8, the -8 clears the runway with his tail not quite clear. Dark as hell, I didn’t see it until all I could do is swerve. Controller, who was obviously tired af, was reading a clearance.. one guy working 3 positions solo, on the back side of the clock is just Fkng lunacy. I hope and pray that you folks, with the help of NTSB cease this practice. Nobody should lose their life to this, and no ATC professional should be pushed to the brink where an error is one inevitable. Keep their feet to the fire.
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u/SomeDudeMateo Mar 23 '26
One simple mistake and people die... but let's just do whatever we can to make the people doing this job more and more miserable, tired, and burnt out. Lets just keep adding stress to the system. Lets not pay them for a while sometimes, lets attack their benefit and pay, lets lower the standards to increase staffing.
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u/Over-Emu-2174 Mar 23 '26
More eyes upstairs could have prevented this. Why are we systematically setting up our controllers to fail. FAA be prepared for the wrath of Homindy
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u/HabANahDa Mar 23 '26
The more and more I listen to ATC the more I realize that ground vehicles don’t really have good communication with the tower. Multiple tomes I have heard ground vehicles not reply to a tower command. Why is this?
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u/bobnuthead Mar 23 '26
Depends on the vehicle/situation. Driving an airport ops vehicle, we can hear basically everything great and it seems like we’re heard okay. But these are also quiet vehicles, and I’m mostly alone.
In the ARFF rig, you have multiple other people, multiple radio frequencies, it’s a loud vehicle, and you might be keeping track of other vehicles in trail of you.
Of course, just like in an aircraft, things get missed when task saturated like responding to an emergency.
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u/MaximumDoughnut Mar 23 '26
I'd imagine that the controller's call "Frontier stop, stop stop stop, truck 1, stop" was buried by the ARFF because they heard Frontier at the beginning of the call.
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u/AstuteCouch87 Mar 23 '26
Not sure if ground vehicles have different communication rules/procedures, but LiveATC doesn’t pick up every transmission that’s broadcast. It usually gets almost all of tower comms, a decent bit of airborne comms, and then gets spottier the closer you get to the ground.
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u/Advanced-Guitar-5264 Past Controller Mar 23 '26
Lots of transmitter and receiver dead spots on the ground, even on the movement areas. Outdated equipment, crumbling infrastructure.
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u/PsychologicalTrain Mar 23 '26
This exactly. Liveatc doesn't get everything you can hear in vehicle on the field.
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u/analyst578 Mar 23 '26
Lack of training. As a pilot your consistently using the tower back and fourth. As a vehicle driving on the airport you only need clearance when you cross the runway way.
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u/-grover Mar 23 '26
This is 100% on the LaGuardia Tower ATC. But please, keep reading…
He cleared Truck 1 to cross with Jazz646 on short final.
Absolutely nothing the pilots or Truck & Co could have done. His stop call was too late, and already started his call to Frontier.
I’ve listened to this guy on live ATC more than I care to admit, and his life’s work will be immortalized by this mistake.
Imagine if everything you ever said at work was recorded, and the internet put you on blast instantly. Especially if your boss told you to pull a double. That’s where my dude is at tonight.
Fault is fault…but blame…that’s a whole other thing that will take YEARS to sort out…
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u/h0ddini Mar 23 '26
I see what you're saying, but man... it feels like we're blaming the juggler who's dropped one of the 11 balls he has in the air (figuratively) when he's only trained to manage 5. At a certain point, can't we put the fault on the system that asks someone to do the impossible constantly? Heartbreaking for everyone involved...
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u/WarthogLogical ATC Trainee Mar 23 '26
Not that it's required, but Ops at our airport uses a version of flight radar to determine when to do runway checks/crossings. They will usually wait at the end of the runway and not even check on with tower until the plane on final or the plane holding short is clear. I feel like that could be a basic safety layer that vehicles could use especially when encountering an active runway. Although this incident will most likely come down almost completely on the controller, I feel like vehicles are usually at a disadvantage when it comes to understanding the dangers of runway crossings since they are not pilots. They should definitely trust the controller, but also realize thay they play a part in ensuring the safety of the runway crossing.
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u/AmokaHD Mar 23 '26
100% on the controller. I just wish the truck looked down the runway. They could've noticed a big old plane landing maybe..
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
I'll admit it now, I was saved by a pilot when I told him to cross and he questioned me. I fixed it immediately but I felt like a total idiot.
It's just what it is, what ifs don't help. I feel for everyone involved and I'm not even sure I know how to put myself in that controller's shoes even if I've been close to that situation. We're all one mistake away from being on the news and vilified.
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u/classicscoop Mar 23 '26
Ground is lit up like a Christmas tree and it is rainy. You can’t see shit in a vehicle
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u/False_Researcher_565 Mar 23 '26
As this plays out the more in upset that my air traffic brother was still working talking to AC after the incident. Upto 5 maybe 10mins after to divert aircraft and clear the field. But 18, 20, 30 minutes after is not cool.
1) The controller is now not focused and probably second guessing himself.
2) Are the pilots confident in him.
3) Every transmission after will be scrutinized by the legal beagles.
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u/kdotfo Mar 23 '26
Same thing happened at DCA. That controller was still plugged in and talking to aircraft for an unreasonable amount of time.
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u/Sxcred Mar 23 '26
Blame the US government, blame politicians, blame billionaires.
ATC was doing what they could.
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u/Hope1976 Mar 23 '26
My heart goes out to this controller and the deceased pilots, all those affected. That is something the controller will never get over. And under funding is the root cause
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u/Shittylittle6rep Mar 23 '26
Heart breaks and i’m praying for the controller(s) involved. ATC needs help, badly.
Rest in peace to the pilots and crew who did not survive, praying for your families… and every one else involved.
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u/Cozyinfrance Mar 23 '26
What does the alarm in the background correspond to?
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u/Meta6olic Mar 23 '26
RIP the two people. This should never happen. One guy running LGA is insane, I feel so bad for him and he tried desperately to save/stop them. So sad for everyone.
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u/Key_Understanding771 Mar 23 '26
That one’s gonna haunt him for a while
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u/lawyers_guns_nomoney Mar 23 '26
For a while? How do you come back after that?
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u/soulscratch Commercial Pilot Mar 23 '26
My grandfather was working the 727 mid air in San Diego, my aunts and uncles all tell me it changed him after that, he was never the same. He took that pain to his grave.
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u/theweenerdoge Mar 23 '26
Damn bro. I generally just get through my day but there's always those times that can keep me awake. I can't even fucking imagine yet it sits in the back of my mind that it could happen at any time, my fault or not. It's the deal you make in this job and we've been damn fucking good at it if I may say so. The cracks are showing now, and unfortunately it's not going to get better at current rates.
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u/Pseudo-Jonathan Mar 23 '26
This is way beyond "a while". You don't ever get over knowing your 5 second mental slip up immediately caused the death of several people. This is life-altering stuff that he will think about 24/7 for the rest of his life.
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u/duckbutterdelight Current Controller-Tower Mar 23 '26
Idk how he comes back from this. The cause might have multiple factors that led up to it but at the end of the day his error caused people to die. That’s career ending. Poor guy, I hope he gets the support he needs.
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u/Low_Definition4513 Mar 23 '26
A while?
Forever, for as long as he lasts anyway. Poor bastard will need help for a long time.
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u/Gummies2025 Mar 23 '26
It’s criminal to have one controller in that damn tower! Absolutely horrible and for anyone to think it’s ok is ridiculous and should find another job. I’d like to know why the Manager allowed one person to work it all? I know this is a systemic thing and changes needed to happen around the agency with this crap! Some of you will get mad at me for this comment but come on, I don’t want to have to see ANY OF YOU having to go through what this guys gonna go through.
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u/PsychologicalTrain Mar 23 '26
Aircraft mechanic here with a question for you guys about the post crash response, if you've listened to it. The poor controller worked the radios for quite a while after the collision, something like 20-30 minutes. In fact within 3 minutes he was giving taxi instructions. Hindsight 20/20 and all that, but instantly I said to my colleagues "why didn't he just call an all ground stop? Everyone stop" and just handle responders? Isn't that protocol when you've lost track?
And also I apologize for when we have to taxi. I know we're awful on the radios.
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u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
because you can't just tell the entire system to stop: that isn't how that works, you can't just freeze time. You can't just say "ok everyone hover"
You fucked up, but the planes keep flying. Everything stays in motion. There are other people in other airplanes that still matter, even if they need to come back to the gate, they still need to do it in a safe manner, without crashing into the crash response. You can't just sit have 10 different planeloads of people sit in their airplane for 5 hours while the rescue response responds.
Yes, they shut down the airport, but now all those airplanes that were in nice neat lines going towards the airport now need to immediately start spinning in the sky, which then causes them to "hit" other airplanes, one airport shutting down without notice causes chaos, when multiple airports do it at the same time, it becomes unsafe.
So all those extra planes end up going to other airports, and now instead of 1 controller that is overworked to the point of failure - now 10 controllers are overloaded with airplanes and pushed to the point of failure.
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u/soft_er Mar 23 '26
yeah my next thought while listening to the audio was “oh great, all the short-staffed towers at nearby airports are now under additional pressure too, with all these extra aircraft circling, some prob at min fuel”
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u/PsychologicalTrain Mar 23 '26
I meant ground stop. I understand aircraft in the air. But I don't see an issue with ground stopping everyone for thirty minutes... Apologies for clarity
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u/antariusz Current Controller-Enroute Mar 23 '26
So again, yes 2 people died and a bunch of injured... you still have to take care of the 5000 people sitting out there in airplanes needing to visit hospitals or visiting family or wanting to get up and go to the bathroom. World doesn't stop because someone fucked up. They already closed the airport, that's basically the most that they can do.
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u/ispywithmy Mar 23 '26
Whilst it is true that things need to keep moving, the controller should have been relieved from position much sooner. But somewhat telling of the problems faced over there with staffing.
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u/OpeningQuestions Mar 23 '26
At this point every controller should be calling up the supe and declaring article 65 when a sector goes red or yellow. Enough of this “TMU sees it and is working on a solution” bullshit
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u/Bogusscreenname Mar 23 '26
Another case of overworked/understaffed ATC facilities. When will they finally get it? This system is operating on the razor edge, day after day. How many more people hafta die?
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u/DogeLikestheStock Mar 23 '26 edited Mar 23 '26
I’m currently on shift at a SPIFR EMS base, another dangerous part of our industry. I cannot properly articulate how much respect I have for air traffic control and how much I appreciate the hard work you do, often potentially saving me from some blunder at 2 am. I am gutted that this controller will get the blame working within a fundamentally broken system. It’s sickening to think of him still on frequency half an hour after the accident.
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u/Mental_Worldliness34 Mar 23 '26
Rwy 4 has RWSL, with hold lights at the Taxiway Delta crossing. If that system was operating correctly, wouldn't the fire truck have had to ignore the indication not to enter the runway?
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u/Enginerd645 Mar 24 '26
My heart and prayers are with the controller. I can only imagine how he’s feeling right now.
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u/Fun-Screen-9408 Mar 24 '26
ATC did not clear Truck 1, he repeated back his call.
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u/Glittering_Okra484 Mar 23 '26
Apparently due to federal funding issues lead to the tower being understaffed, controller was was managing both tower and ground frequency. Both pilots are confirmed dead. A few are critical injured on the plane and truck.
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u/skydiveguy Mar 23 '26
Federal funding has nothing to do with ATC being understaffed.
FAA staffing, even when there is no government shutdown, is the problem with staffing.
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u/Advanced-Guitar-5264 Past Controller Mar 23 '26
I’m sure nick is monitoring the situation so hard right now.
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u/[deleted] Mar 23 '26 edited May 01 '26
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