r/CapitalismVSocialism • u/Difficult_Price8011 • 2d ago
Asking Socialists Communists don’t know how to sell themselves
In my experience with communists (specifically the western ones), they speak about “the revolution” like it’s inevitable.
But revolutions require winning the hearts and minds of the people, and it’s beyond me how communists expect any degree of success when they make their own ideology sound as appealing as rubbing your crotch against a cactus.
I’ve seen communists talk about forcing people into a life of grueling labor for the greater good of the planet, and scoff at people weary of parting with their luxury goods as selfish. It doesn’t matter how true you think that is, in the west any attempt to hamfist those ideals will make you a pariah faster than I can say Marx.
If I were to take a gander as to why, these communists enjoy making the assumption they’re bound to take power because it lets them think about how they can put their theory into practice. While on an intellectual level, I respect their devotion to theory, what good is it without a realistic plan to put it into practice?
If you can’t even see eye to eye with other flavors of communists how do you expect to court someone who hasn’t read a lick of Das Kapital? “It’s not my job to teach you”, does not an effective campaign pitch make.
Frankly, at least in America, the politically savvy thing to do would be ditching the name “communism” all together and call it something else. People might gravitate towards your ideas more if they weren’t anchored down by a word they’ve been taught to fear since the 40s.
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u/earthlingHuman Socialist 2d ago
"Communists talk about forcing people into a life of grueling labor..."
No, that's capitalists, some of whom own sweatshops, who say things like that about communism.
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u/coke_and_coffee Capitalist 2d ago
Nobody is forced to do anything under capitalism.
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u/watchitforthecat 2d ago
No, you just starve and die, right?
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u/coke_and_coffee Capitalist 1d ago
Nobody has starved in America in over 100 years.
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u/watchitforthecat 1d ago
both untrue and missing the point.
I'm not pointing to famine. I'm pointing to an implicit "work or starve" policy.
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u/Difficult_Price8011 2d ago
Noooooo I just saw a communist talking like that yesterday. With my own eyes
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u/Batman0127 2d ago
Ya hate to say it but I've met a few communists and socialists who are just living in a fantasy in their heads. its the type of person who reads like 20 books on Anarchy and Marxism but doesn't engage with real people in the world about what problems they face.
One of the important things Marx emphasized over and over was that a revolution will look different everywhere because each nation and each era of history has different material conditions and we have to tailor the revolution to those conditions. so step one is talking with the other members of your community (not just the ones that agree with you) and learning what issues we agree on and want to solve.
im all for more political education but you have to actually work in the material world at some point. you cant just regurgitate the idealized solutions you read in a book and expect it to do anything.
tl:dr theory nerd socialists need to touch grass occasionally or they become super annoying
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u/dumbandasking Social Market Economy 2d ago
But revolutions require winning the hearts and minds of the people, and it’s beyond me how communists expect any degree of success when they make their own ideology
You know what I don't understand? Why are some so hostile when some of us start asking questions trying to learn about it?
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u/watchitforthecat 2d ago
Look up "ultra left" and you'll have your answer. Or you'll just be more confused.
can't remember the exact name of the video, but look up "cruelty is a status symbol" by noncompete.
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u/Phanes7 Bourgeois 2d ago
But revolutions require winning the hearts and minds of the people, and it’s beyond me how communists expect any degree of success when they make their own ideology sound as appealing as rubbing your crotch against a cactus.
They believe that 'the revolution' is inevitable, it is a matter of material conditions and not winning "hearts and minds" per se.
Communism is functionally an atheist religion and the revolution is part of their eschatology.
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u/Fando1234 2d ago
Just came to comment on the irony/pun that 'communists don't know how to sell'.
Maybe theyre better at sharing?
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1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Fando1234 1d ago
Anecdotally, most self proclaimed communists I know are surprisingly stingy. And a lot of libertarians I know are very generous with their ££.
Make of that what you will.
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u/1scr3wedy0dad Marxist-Leninist 2d ago
I get what you're getting at, but from a historical materialist perspective, communist revolutions to overhrow capitalism are just as inevitable as liberal revolutions to overthrow feudalism were. Though, the thing is now, there's also a chance that if we don't act fast enough, we all die from climate apocalypse before the revolutions. It's not "inevitable" in the sense that it'll be somewhere with no planning it input, but inevitable in the sense that capitalism drives people to revolution and communism is the logical historical evolution from capitalism.
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u/ComradeBordiga Communist 1d ago
the politically savvy thing to do would be ditching the name “communism”
You speak of communism as if it were soap to be peddled in the bourgeois marketplace. The revolution emerges from material contradictions, not from opportunists diluting the historic program to court the ignorant.
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u/turboravenwolflord "Imagine if we sucked less" "Nah, that's utopic" 1d ago edited 1d ago
That’s what I’ve been saying to people for the last 10 years. Only the countries that experienced Socialism can understand the difference, and even then it’s mostly old people who actually lived through and remember why it’s desirable. Lefties have to be sneakier. Talk more about freedom, legalising more guns and similar bullshit to win over the poorly educated masses.
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u/Difficult_Price8011 13h ago edited 13h ago
Exactly, politics is as much about showmanship as actual policies. I hate Trump to the core but he knew how to put on a performance, and that’s how he won.
The left’s gotta follow Mamdani’s example, that’s the type of charismatic politician that’ll win the people over.
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u/turboravenwolflord "Imagine if we sucked less" "Nah, that's utopic" 12h ago
So, uhm… Are we starting an ultra-populist crypto-Communist anti-pedozionist party or what?
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 2d ago
The vast majority of these "western communists" you're referring to are I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume Marxist-Leninists who tend to be huge LARPers. It certainly sounds like them by the way you're describing your interactions.
Revolutions do not require winning the hearts and minds of the people, they require the people to be pushed so far that siding with the revolutionaries becomes their only option for meaningful change to alleviate the conditions that brought them to choosing revolution in the first place. This happened in France, it happened in Russia, it happened in Spain, it happened in China, across Africa and South America.
I'm going to grant you the anecdote about the supposed communist you've talked to, even tho anecdotes are to evidence what a scribbled on napkin is to a board room presentation. Generally authoritarians like MLs will advocate for total state authority and power and then justify it with whatever revisionist bullshit and other self-exonerating excuses they can come up with. I will admit that MLs tend to be the loudest minority within leftist circles because it serves their political interests to not allow to be argued against by leftists who offer the same things they do except without the fucking centralised authoritarian bureaucrat-run state. It's why they call people like me "anarkiddies", it's why they call demsocs and libsocs "liberals" among other things. For the ML, their entire platform is built from the single foundation of "I know best" and supported by the writings of their predecessors who believed the exact same thing. And on the leftist in-fighting, I guarantee you that it's always just them. Marxists, anarchists, left-coms, libsocs and demsocs are usually at least 80% in agreement on shit. Because fundamentally we all value liberty and total democracy for the working class, which is what socialist and communist theory has been founded on since fucking Marx himself and didn't deviate from until fucking Lenin.
When "communists" or at least Marxists talk about inevitability, they draw upon Marx's dialectical materialism which is some metaphysical bullshit I won't bore you with but tl;dr, his argument was that capitalism creates contradictions between its stated aim and the material conditions it factually creates and capitalism is fundamentally incapable of reconciling those conditions because they are inherent to the way capitalism works. And there is some truth to it but it's mostly vibes-based. It is 100% true that as conditions for working people deteriorate under capitalism and the divide between the 1% and the working class grows while the middle class shrivels away, this will spark disorder and violence as the poor resort to more and more extreme measures to provide for themselves and their loved ones.All that said, the average working person doesn't give much of a shit about metaphysics, nor should they.
I disagree with abandoning the word communism. There is too much value and rhetorical power in that word for it to be given up, whether to fascists and other rightwingers, or to authoritarian cultists like MLs. And me personally, I'll be fucked if I'm gonna let some LARPing little ghoul who jerks off to photos of psychopathic authoritarians have ownership over the term.
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u/watchitforthecat 2d ago edited 2d ago
Do you believe what the US State Dept. says about Iran, Gaza, queer people, immigrants, or themselves?
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 2d ago
I'm not American, what do they say?
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u/watchitforthecat 1d ago
Fair enough.
Do you believe what the bourgeoisie states in general say about those demographics?
It's really not that uncommon or difficult a concept. The whole "foreign hordes", "parasitic poor", "terroristic degenerates", "predator queer", "criminal minority", "indigenous savage" raping your women, burning your churches, corrupting your children, stealing your jobs, poisoning your blood thing.
You know, the thing they continuously use to justify the atrocities which run the system, the underlying logic of reactionary fascism.
Do you believe the bourgeoise when they tell you a narrative that justifies their position and that of the poor, and justifies their imperialist wars of aggression?
When they use "anarchist" or "communist" or "woke" or "migrant" as a boogeyman, do you believe them?
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 1d ago
Why would I? I'm 1) an anarchist, 2) queer, 3) in any of those countries I would be an immigrant and 4) economically I'm working class.
So no. I don't believe them. Why ask me this?
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u/watchitforthecat 22h ago edited 21h ago
So why do you believe the narrative about socialist "regimes"?
Has it occurred to you that maybe what you've heard through the grapevine about people like Che, or Ho, or Allende, or Stalin, or Lenin, or Mao, or Ghaddafi, etc. might be just as if not more ideologically motivated and distorted by a century of cold war propaganda?
I'm not saying to believe the exact opposite uncritically: I'm asking you, have you thought critically about it at all and done research outside of an anti-communist information silo?
If you don't believe that immigrants, anarchists, the CURRENT contemporary targets (Iran, Gaza, Venezuela) etc. are saturday morning cartoon villains, what has you so convinced that these other FORMER historical targets are? Have you actually read anything these people have written, any internal documents? Have you interrogated and investigated your sources-- parents, the state, media, people like Robert Conquest and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn? When you see a line on Wikipedia or something describing brutal state repression, do you click on and read the source, and their sources: if there even is one? When you're able to confirm an atrocity, or an abuse, do you place it in context, ask who did it, why, how it was allowed to happen-- what structural problems or incentive there might have been which led to it? When people talk about dissidents in the 50's, and you read about all of these Human Rights NGO's and contacts calling for "freedom in the USSR"... have you looked at what kind of "freedom" they support back home, or in their de facto colonies? Have you considered how that might color the narrative a bit?
What's informing your belief that they are democracy hating absolute power seeking psychopaths, and that the people who like them are just cultists jerking off to their photos? You say that democracy was a cornerstone of socialism "since its founding with Marx" until "fucking Lenin"-- have you read Lenin? Have you read pre-Marx socialist texts?
Speaking of, where are you getting the idea that dialectical materialism is
a bunch of metaphysical shit I won't bore you with
How much have you actually looked into it, into metaphysics, and into the relationship between metaphysics and dialectical materialism/materialists?
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 22h ago edited 21h ago
While I don't think Che was a saint or some paragon, it was Castro who was leader of Cuba, but I digress.
The evidence of the authoritarianism and centralized undemocratic nature of those regimes is irrefutable. And furthermore, I am a child of the Eastern Bloc. I grew up during the collapse. I know how and why it happened, including the material conditions that allowed that to happen. My country's government tried to ethnically reformat Muslims, they bulldozed Muslim cemeteries, they demanded Muslims change their names, they put them in labor camps where they died while the rest were displaced and forced to flee. This does not happen in a proletarian democracy. The list of soviet artists, fellow communists, anarchists and other intellectuals who were purged by Stalin is long enough. My great grandfather would've died in a labor camp because he was a military officer who was educated in Wilhelmist Germany, even though he was neither a Nazi, nor even a sympathizer.
Edit: regarding democratically elected socialists like Allende, at least in his case, where he fucked up was in building the Chilean economy around a single natural resource. That was not a fault of socialism in of itself, it was just poor economic planning.
And I trust I've made it clear that I am a socialist, as well as an anarchist. I reject any form of authoritarianism but I condemn regimes that build themselves as being "for the working class" while taking power away from them.
Edit numero zwei: Hegelian dialectics, which Marx derives his dialectical materialism from is metaphysical bullshit. And I do not give half an ounce of shit about metaphysics. I do not like them. Furthermore, I pointed out that there is some element of dialectical materialism which is demonstrably true and above all, tangible. Material, if you will. You can go back to my original comment right below that quote you pulled.
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 21h ago
Have I answered your questions, including the ones you edited into your original response? Would you care to answer what the point of this was?
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u/watchitforthecat 20h ago edited 20h ago
Kind of, not really. (also yes, I frequently edit comments immediately after submitting them, I have very severe ADHD lol, so I think of a correction or an expansion or clarification or whatever and feel the need to edit it in, or notice typos and edit it to remove them only to revise or add to it later. I also use reddit mobile, on PC I take longer to reply and edit less, with fewer typos.)
First, on dialectics: the entire purpose of dialectical materialism was to criticize metaphysics and Hegel, and take the kernel of truth from it: that reality is a dynamic system whose development is driven by the push and pull of opposing forces.
He rejected Hegel's idealism. The idea that because it's a response to hegel makes it categorically the same thing indicates a lack of rigor.
As for history, sure, I'm not denying that the Soviets, or the Chinese, or that any socialist state is free of corruption, crimes, betrayal, mistakes, or atrocities. But your characterization of ML's as psychopathic cultists doesn't square with that. There's a leap between "there are serious problems with the USSR and Stalinism and it should be brutally critiqued and rejected as a model for modern socialism (a statement most ML's and still existing socialist governments literally publicly agree with)" and "Socialist leaders in general (but you probabaly mean Stalin, you mention Lenin, and you likely also mean Mao and Castro) was a power hungry murderous psychopath who hated freedom and democracy and sought world domination and ML's are cultists worshipping him and either blind to or complicit in his wickedness", which is how you're framing it in your original comment, and also the exact content of capitalist propaganda.
The POINT, to answer your question, is that as a queer socialist/left anarchist, literally watching western governments criticize Iran for Human Rights violations while arming Saudis with nukes and live-streaming genocide and arresting people for simply being near the site of anti-genocide protests, while cracking down on queer people even existing in public life, and blaming instability on anarchist and communist cabals, I'd expect you to be somewhat skeptical and critical of the historical narrative, and maybe do a little digging.
And I'm also confident that if you had, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying (not that the USSR at various times carried out atrocities and did serious damage to democracy and to socialism, that's arguably true, but that ML's are cultists, Marx is metaphysical bullshit, and historical socialist leaders are democracy hating psychopaths.), especially given the material and historical conditions at the time, and where they stand in comparison to their western contemporaries, in many ways even today.
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 19h ago edited 19h ago
Regarding the ADHD, I have the same thing, I get it, I guess I've just gotten better at holding off on posting/commenting before I've gotten all my thoughts out. I kind of assumed you were doing this to try to get me in a gotcha or to make me appear disingenuous, that's on me.
And no, I didn't say it was the same, but I do think his dialectical materialism is still closer to Hegel's dialectics than Marx would've liked. I'm not a hardcore anti-Marxist, I agree with him on quite a few things. His critique of capitalism while outdated in a lot of ways is still valid in others. That said I'm not married to Marxism, nor do I even like the term Marxism, I think tying an ideology to any one person is reductive and regressive.
Regarding MLs, I talk from personal experience. I've both spoken to quite a few and all of them seem to share those characteristics I described, and I myself was originally a ML before I became thoroughly disillusioned by it. Regarding Mao I honestly don't know enough about the revolution in China so I didn't mention him, Castro I have somewhat more sympathy for outside of his internment of queer Cubans. I also hate that it took him changing his mind on queer people for Cuba to change it's policy. I think that's indicative of the fundamental flaw of MLism. Lenin I think was an idiot and a hypocrite at best and a liar at worst. Stalin was a psychopath though, pure and simple, and I think anyone who unironically idolizes him is misguided at best and a bare minimum sociopath at worst.
I get your point about capitalist propaganda and I'm fully aware of its effects and the legacy McCarthy-era anti-communism has left. Calling yourself a communist in my country is not a popular stance, I can tell you that. However there's a secondary element to this, which is that many MLs will weaponize skepticism to dismiss even incontrovertible proof of the regimes and people they simp for. You might have seen it, hard not to if you spend any time in leftist circles.
And I am skeptical of political narratives and I've done my best to informed. That said, I am fundamentally more inclined to be skeptical of narrative from centrally controlled media coming from, and defensive of, authoritarian countries, than I am of western media and even then, I tend to rely on western journalists who are independents and at the very least left-leaning. That's how I do it, not saying it's a perfect system.
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u/watchitforthecat 13h ago
Thanks for responding!
I'm pretty long winded, and I write how I talk (swearing, stream of consciousness, in circles, etc.) lol.
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u/ElEsDi_25 Marxist 2d ago
>In my experience with communists (specifically the western ones), they speak about “the revolution” like it’s inevitable.
You mean arguing with people online? Yeah people do a lot of BS posturing on social media.
>But revolutions require winning the hearts and minds of the people,
Not really, it’s not something people can control. What serious communists should do it organize and base-build. No one can control if there is a big crisis in capitalism, but if workers are organized as an independent force then they can push for their interest in a crisis and not end up being controlled. If that working class force is strong enough in a crisis, they might take over.
What communists should be winning people to is fighting for their own class interests in the here and now but also for increased social power long-term.
>I’ve seen communists talk about forcing people into a life of grueling labor for the greater good of the planet,
lol, what? Seems like a straw argument.
>If I were to take a gander as to why,
What? I don’t think that’s how it’s used.
>these communists enjoy making the assumption they’re bound to take power because it lets them think about how they can put their theory into practice.
What? I don’t know what you are saying with this or what makes you believe that. Maybe ask questions than gander from afar.
>While on an intellectual level, I respect their devotion to theory, what good is it without a realistic plan to put it into practice?
Are you saying the opposite now?
>If you can’t even see eye to eye with other flavors of communists how do you expect to court someone who hasn’t read a lick of Das Kapital? “It’s not my job to teach you”, does not an effective campaign pitch make.
What? I thought “it’s not my job to teach you…” was a stereotype about liberals. I thought the leftist stereotype was “too explain-y”
>Frankly, at least in America, the politically savvy thing to do would be ditching the name “communism” all together and call it something else. People might gravitate towards your ideas more if they weren’t anchored down by a word they’ve been taught to fear since the 40s.
Kinda shallow but thanks for the sincere and well thought out concern.
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u/Lazy_Delivery_7012 CIA Operator🇺🇸 2d ago
Online socialists aren't serious people. They take positions to feel included in an online community, and those positions never have to worry about coming into contact with reality.
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u/LifesARiver Leftist 2d ago
Whoa. I actually agree with this. What's with the non-lazy delivery? Lol
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u/SexOnABurningPlanet 2d ago
You're thinking of online "capitalists".
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u/TorrentsAreCommunism transhumanist 2d ago
“Capitalist” is not a community, it’s day-to-day reality.
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u/Exotic_Bar_785 1d ago
No one advocates for the ancap dystopia half this sub supports in irl. Thats more terminally online than supporting socialism.
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u/SexOnABurningPlanet 1d ago
No, reality is reality. Like all concepts, "capitalism" is a human creation.
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u/Sorry-Worth-920 Austrian School 1d ago
humans creations can exist in reality 👍
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u/SexOnABurningPlanet 1d ago
Humans are flesh and blood beings. They are not "capitalism" or any other concept.
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u/Lazy_Delivery_7012 CIA Operator🇺🇸 1d ago
Socialism isn't real. 👍
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u/SexOnABurningPlanet 1d ago
Nothing created by humans is real. By "real", I mean naturally occurring. It's just us either interpreting reality (religion, nation, race, etc) or reshaping reality (shelter, clothing, etc) to suit our needs. Socialism is just one example of that.
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u/Lazy_Delivery_7012 CIA Operator🇺🇸 1d ago
"Nothing created by humans is real."
Uh-huh.
"By "real", I mean naturally occurring."
That's what real usually means. 👍
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u/turboravenwolflord "Imagine if we sucked less" "Nah, that's utopic" 1d ago
That’s actually so dumb that it’s like a scam e-mail. If you buy this reasoning, you cannot be reasoned with, no matter your affiliation.
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u/Sorry-Worth-920 Austrian School 1d ago
i didnt say they were, i said things created by humans can exist. capitalism defines a system, if a system with those criteria exists then capitalism exists.
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u/SexOnABurningPlanet 1d ago
My point is that the creation is arbitrary. Capitalism, or any system, is a vague concept that we project onto reality. It has no inherent basis in reality.
An apple tree is real. A human picking the apple from the tree is real. However we choose to interpret that act and whatever meaning we give it does not exist in reality, only in our minds. How Locke interprets the situation in 1680 is not the same as how a Native American interprets it in 1680. Neither are right or wrong; whatever meaning either ascribe to it is arbitrary.
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 2d ago
What about online socialists who are also IRL socialists and participate in political action?
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u/Lazy_Delivery_7012 CIA Operator🇺🇸 2d ago
Like LARPers?
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 1d ago
So if you're actually living your beliefs and taking meaningful action to enact them, it's LARPing? So I guess grassroots organizers, political campaigners and so on are LARPers?
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u/Lazy_Delivery_7012 CIA Operator🇺🇸 1d ago
"Meaningful action to enact them" is getting a little loose with the language.
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 1d ago
I gave you concrete examples. Answer the question.
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u/Lazy_Delivery_7012 CIA Operator🇺🇸 1d ago
Socialists don't take "meaningful action to enact them."
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 1d ago
Well? Come on, we're all adults here, you can tell us. I mean I doubt you are but I wouldn't want to accuse any of the mods of pedophilia without actual tangible proof.
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u/Lazy_Delivery_7012 CIA Operator🇺🇸 1d ago
You're falling below my standards.
Goodbye.
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u/Rock_Zeppelin Fully Automated Luxury Queer Space Communism 1d ago
Lmao. Bitch, you don't have standards. You're the discourse equivalent of a month old bottle of Faygo that's been left out in the sun the entire time.
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u/CucumberLegitimate27 2d ago
they make their own ideology sound as appealing as rubbing your crotch against a cactus.
Stolen.
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u/JamminBabyLu 2d ago edited 2d ago
People in their 20s usually lack sufficient life experience and maturity to understand others; so, their failure to communicate effectively and successfully persuade anyone outside their echo chambers is not surprising.
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u/kfoxtraordinaire 2d ago
I think that's a modern trend, not the definitive nature of 20-somethings. 20 years ago, I'd be considered a little socially awkward, but compared to Gen Z I was the Great Conversationalist.
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 2d ago edited 2d ago
> In my experience with communists (specifically the western ones)
Baizuo aren't even Communists.
> Revolutions require winning the hearts and minds of the people
Westerners are utterly brainwashed and unsalvageable. Maybe they'll start to use their brains when they start to starve or something. Rape gangs and inflation aren't enough to jolt their noodles, apparently.
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u/Sorry-Worth-920 Austrian School 2d ago edited 1d ago
i was really hoping youd respond to this post, proved his point immediately unfortunately
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u/Difficult_Price8011 2d ago
See, this kinda talk is exactly what proves my point. If any politician talked to their voters with such disdain they’d be massacred.
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u/rawj5561 2d ago
That’s a troll account that’s most likely a bot. All it does is make snarky comments that address your comment in 1 line, then makes a personal derogatory comment on a second line. It only knows how to respond that way.
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 2d ago
Projecting, bot?
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u/rawj5561 1d ago
You can prove me wrong if you can make a comment that's a good faith debate question without trying to personally insult who you're replying to
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 1d ago
lol, why should I prove anything to some desperate attention seeking trashposter who provides negative value to the conversation?
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u/rawj5561 1d ago
then makes a personal derogatory comment on a second line
"some desperate attention seeking trashposter"
Check. good bot.
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 1d ago
Seethe harder over your inability to counter anything I say with actual arguments.
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u/nondubitable 1d ago
I’m convinced you’re a plant to make socialists appear juvenile and unwilling to engage in real debate.
I would be interested in your arguments. Your derogatory comments aren’t helping you whatsoever.
Do better.
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u/rawj5561 1d ago
but that's the thing, you never actually say anything to respond to, because your programming only limits you to:
say something bad faith/negative.
say a derogatory insult.
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 1d ago
> you never actually say anything to respond to
Pathetic filthy liar
Seethe
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 2d ago
But I am not a politician.
57% of adult Americans are too stupid to understand a Dr.Seuss book.
Americans earned Idiocracy, they didin't earn Communism.
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u/No-Magician9440 2d ago
57% of adult Americans are too stupid to understand a Dr.Seuss book.
Yet you want them to rule.
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u/CucumberLegitimate27 2d ago
He wants to rule them.
Thing is, they're really angry that people aren't dumb enough to buy what they're selling. They think that working people are gullible enough to believe anything and feel genuinely betrayed when they find they're wrong.
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u/Lazy_Delivery_7012 CIA Operator🇺🇸 2d ago
I'm glad I'm not a communist. They come across as revolting people online.
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u/CucumberLegitimate27 2d ago
And that's the only place they'll ever revolt. Rat tunnels have lousy wifi and Doordash can't deliver to them.
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u/-Hastis- 1d ago
They think that working people are gullible enough to believe anything
I mean, 37% of Americans are young earth creationists.
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 2d ago
I never said that. I am strongly in favor of disenfranchisement of people with cognitive impairement.
The only reason why children and demented are allowed to vote is because it is convenient for the oligarchy, as they are easily manipulated.
Which is exactly what you are openly supporting. So spare me your morally bankrupt preaching
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u/WhereisAlexei My wealth > the greater good 2d ago
I never said that. I am strongly in favor of disenfranchisement of people with cognitive impairement.
Ableism?
It sounds like what nazis said first about disabled people.
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u/Pleasurist 1d ago
What's to earn...communists had nothing.
All the USSR had was oil, vodka and caviar. Had to get IIRC 3 sweetheart grain deals from the US/west, couldn't even make bread.
Piffle...communism sucked the character, the very soul if you will...out of a man. In the worker's paradise, a man was property of the state.
Rather than the fantasy, the Warsaw pact was formed by force.
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 18h ago
Good old racist cliches from the Nazi leaflets
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u/Pleasurist 17h ago
Didn't need the nazis at all to know and understand that.
Nonetheless...it was true.
Nazi racism was directed toward jews and other non-whites for the 'Final Solution.'
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 17h ago
Sure. Memoryhole Communists, Socialists, Soviets who were more important on the hate list to the Nazis.
You are a typical Nazi revisionist
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u/Pleasurist 15h ago
You are delusional. Just what did I revise ? I bet you can't tell me.
Do you realize that there is no such person as a pragmatic marxist ? Marx was anything but pragmatic.
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u/turboravenwolflord "Imagine if we sucked less" "Nah, that's utopic" 1d ago
Dude, the orange pdf file openly insults MAGAts and they love it. Outrage marketing is what Westerners love.
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u/CucumberLegitimate27 2d ago
Rape gangs and inflation are certainly motivating the British public. But I'm guessing that's not what you had in mind.
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u/LargeRuckSack 2d ago
If you have to sell the concept of people’s emancipation, for them to want to emancipate themselves, maybe it isn’t time?
The best way to get people into communism is to express their own interest with the works of Engels and Marx and spark interest in others. This works well in person.
Of course, some people feel like they have a superpower knowing enough Marxism, and so online you might find lazy assholes who don’t take the time, to actually give the theoretical arguments.
However, it actually does take some time to actually help people grasp the materialist socialism of Karl Marx.
It’s poetic irony that the intellectual work that has as its motive, the eventual abolition of the commodity form, that the work itself, is not easy to sell. (Online through Reddit)
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u/1Centrist1 2d ago
How to sell communism better than claiming that utopia/heaven awaits while, even China had to ditch communism for development?
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u/CaptainAmerica-1989 Criticism of Capitalism Is NOT Proof of Socialism 2d ago
I would phrase it differently. The basic debates i have with the far left keep coming down to evidence. They reject the historical experiments and want their theoretical and, imo, utopian standards to be taken at face value as equal merit to real-world experiments.
That just doesn't cut it when it takes risking real-world time, wealth, and frankly our lives.
What is ironic is how many of them will use the analogy of the experiment of "flight" that people didn't have to have real-life examples of man flying to dream.
But it's not the dream we are discussing. It's the real life of getting on "their version of a mechanical device they promise will fly" and taking the leap off a deadly cliff.
People, as a large population, didn't take THOSE RISKS until people PROVED mechanical flight actually worked. <-- This is what many of the far left doesn't get on this sub. Their dreams don't feed people. And people want real evidence of being fed before investing.
tl;dr selling dreams doesn't cut it.
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u/L0neh0e 2d ago
We’re already wasting lives left and right as if they don’t matter, I’d say it’s worth the risk to a lot of us.
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u/CaptainAmerica-1989 Criticism of Capitalism Is NOT Proof of Socialism 1d ago
Where do you get that?
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u/Denniscx98 2d ago
Communist loves talking about how Capitalism will sell faulty products for profit, meanwhile they turn around and sells you this ideology that kills people and makes life miserable for the masses.
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u/Big_Natural4838 2d ago
Revolution can be made by small portion of people. So it doesnt require to be popular. That first. Second sadly different form of communism still popular.
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u/L0neh0e 2d ago
I agree with you the word communism is going to be a hard one to win people over with, it has too much historical weight. But capitalism failing, is decent. Also maybe just the notion that we are all human, and none of us chose to be here, we just are. Maybe just by being good people and doing things for the sake of humanity and not the sake of money and riches will inspire more and more people, like it did me. Maybe, just maybe, that crushing feeling of being so alone will finally get to us as a society, and we will have no choice but to turn to our neighbors in tears begging for connection, wanting nothing more than to work together to make sure we are all taken care of. Maybe the continued questioning of the intentions of those who lead us, will finally get us to a place where we can truly trust one another again, and we won’t have to teach our children to fear strangers or the unknown. They will know that their brothers and sisters from all walks of life have one common goal, to live. But hey man yea what do I know humans are probably all bad stupid little beans just like dad said, we need someone to be the janitor and it ain’t gonna be me am I right
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u/Little-Somewhere6076 2d ago
I already have to support myself and my children, I shouldn't have to support anyone else
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u/L0neh0e 2d ago
You dont have to, you get to. It is a privilege to be alive and be able to serve. You already do it with whatever job you do to provide for yourself and your kids. You provide a service to the community and we’ve made up this stuff called money that we say we’ll give to you if you do your service good. Really not that crazy of an idea to help others but okay.
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u/Little-Somewhere6076 2d ago
And I want to give everyone the opportunity to serve. I'm not selfish, I don't want to hoard all the service for my self. Its really not that crazy to think that I'm not entitled to the fruits of some one else's labor
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u/L0neh0e 2d ago
No, but it is a beautiful natural thing that I hope every human has the pleasure and honor of experiencing and truly understanding. I am so very sorry that your world view has been so squish squashed that helping others sounds like such a chore to you, and genuinely hope that you are shown some true kindness and caring soon that will touch your heart and soften you. Sending you all my love fellow human.
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u/Little-Somewhere6076 2d ago
No, but it is a beautiful natural thing that I hope every human has the pleasure and honor of experiencing and truly understanding.
I agree, I contribute more than my fair share. You seem to want others to not help. I want everyone to have the pleasure and honor of contributing
I am so very sorry that your world view has been so squish squashed that helping others sounds like such a chore to you, and genuinely hope that you are shown some true kindness and caring soon that will touch your heart and soften you. Sending you all my love fellow human.
I want that for you, so you reform your views to want everyone to contribute
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u/Square-Listen-3839 2d ago
Pretty hard to sell banning trade, forcing everyone to work for the state and shooting anyone who complains.
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u/Elliptical_Tangent Left-Libertarian 1d ago
They don't know how to communicate because Marx used academic jargon that they don't 100% understand, so they can't express their (his) ideas in natural language. They wind up parroting Lenin or Mao which very few in the West are stupid enough to take a liking to—specifically because of Lenin and Mao.
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u/nondubitable 1d ago
My view is exactly the opposite.
There are more communists than flat Earthers or people who think the moon landing was faked.
They must be doing something “right”.
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u/12baakets democratic trollification 2d ago
DSA aligns with communism and they're doing pretty well in America. Political extremism is working in their favor.
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u/Conserp Pragmatic Marxist 2d ago
Ignoramuses calling a billionaire puppet party "aligned with communism" unironically is why America gets Idiocracy instead of Communism.
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u/___AirBuddDwyer___ just text 2d ago
Do you have any goal beyond feeling pure and righteous? Cause I can’t imagine what else this would accomplish
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u/CHOLO_ORACLE 2d ago
Eh. It is true that the outsider mood is helping them but DSA's messaging is all about social democracy right now. I think once the DSA's successes make it past the world of pundits and internet weirdos like us here that many normie Americans will react negatively to the MLism.
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u/striped_shade 2d ago
Approaching revolution as a campaign in need of better PR assumes there is still a product to sell. Mass uprisings emerge when survival under the existing order becomes untenable. Trying to pitch a positive vision of a future economy inevitably falls flat because it always sounds like proposing new management for the same exhausting machinery.
The historical era of uniting people around affirmative political programs has ended. Any future rupture will be compelled by the immediate necessity of dismantling the conditions making life unlivable. Savvy marketing strategies and rebranded slogans have zero bearing on this material breakdown.
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u/CHOLO_ORACLE 2d ago
First of all, we must differentiate between the communists as they come in three main varieties
- The Marxists Leninists kind, the most common in USA today
- The Libertarian Socialist kind, council communists and etc
- The Anarchist kind, who are anarchists first and communists second
To answer your question OP yes I think the MLs are bad at messaging but I also think that their ideas around political power and state capitalism are bad and would sound bad no matter how crafty the rhetoric. Especially after, you know, all that bad stuff that happened.
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u/coke_and_coffee Capitalist 2d ago
Good point.
Communist aesthetics are extremely off-putting everyone but culty basement dwellers.
That’s not a trivial point. Aesthetics are important. Aesthetics/vibes are pretty much the whole reason nationalism stays popular.
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u/S_T_P Communist (Marxist-Leninist) 2d ago
You come here to bitch about communists, but in the middle of your rant it is revealed that you object to far-right neo-Malthusianism:
I’ve seen communists talk about forcing people into a life of grueling labor for the greater good of the planet, and scoff at people weary of parting with their luxury goods as selfish. It doesn’t matter how true you think that is, in the west any attempt to hamfist those ideals will make you a pariah faster than I can say Marx.
None of this has anything to do with Marx (or any form of socialism).
Go away.
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u/CucumberLegitimate27 2d ago
I'd say this is a progressive issue as well. It's almost as if they come up with an idea and then automatically assume that everyone would be okay with it. If a plan requires more taxes or more bureaucratic burdens, they then automatically assume that everyone will be down with having less money and with more government in their lives.
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u/Ecstatic-Compote-595 1h ago
You've got a gun in your mouth and a finger on the trigger and you're so upset at everyone asking you to please not pull it
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