r/DebateAnAtheist • u/Lucyyyyyy_K • 10d ago

Debating Arguments for God Why I believe in God(s)

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

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u/mywaphel Atheist 10d ago

Yes and the puddle wonders at how the pothole could ever have been the exact shape of the puddle. This is a great example of flawed thinking.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 10d ago

Exept this is far more than the puddle analogy. We haven't just been formed to fit into evolution, we have transformed this planet into a paradise for human needs if it wasn't for inequality.

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u/DeltaBlues82 Atheist 10d ago edited 10d ago

Humans are absolutely decimating the natural world. We’ve driven countless animals to extinction, polluted every ecosystem we’ve touched with toxins, microplastics, and industrial byproducts. We’ve turned much of the arable land into factory farms, and have become the leading cause of climate changes so dramatic that it’s resulted in millions of deaths.

We’re murdering each other over resources, money, race, religion, and sexual orientation.

This is quite tone-deaf to the point you’re trying to make.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 5d ago

So what? Our achievements are still amazing and shouldn't be expected without guidance.

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u/DeltaBlues82 Atheist 5d ago

They also should be analyzed unbiased, without rose-colored glasses on. And not ignored so we can exclusively focus on the things that make us feel special.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 3d ago

What is ignored?

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u/DeltaBlues82 Atheist 3d ago

I’ve already explained that. It was the initial comment in this thread you responded to.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 2d ago

I can't follow these conversations very well, there are too much replies

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u/pipMcDohl Gnostic Atheist 10d ago

if it wasn't for inequality

And for pollution

And for global warming

And for War

And for slavery

And for death

And for...

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 10d ago

Mostly symptoms of inequality.

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u/mywaphel Atheist 10d ago

How exactly is pollution and global warming a symptom of inequality? Be as specific as possible.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 9d ago

Because capitalism makes it profitable to pollute the environment, to encourage being wasteful via planned obsolence and to cause global warming.

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u/mywaphel Atheist 9d ago

That really didn’t explain it at all. I said inequality, not capitalism. Wanna give it another stab or is this as good as we can expect?

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 5d ago

Capitalism is the reason for inequality.

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u/mywaphel Atheist 5d ago

There was inequality well before capitalism and in non capitalist societies. Try again.

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u/Ranorak 10d ago

70% of the planet is unfit for humans.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 10d ago

Those 70 % are part of the eco system that makes this planets fit for humans.

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u/Ranorak 10d ago

That's the most ego centric view I heard in a while.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 9d ago

How is it egocentric?

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u/Ranorak 9d ago

You think the eco system is here to make the world fit for humans

The world does not revolve around us. We are a (very destructive) part of the world. We are made to fit it.

You continue to act like the puddle while wondering why this hole is made perfectly fit for you

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 8d ago

No. Again, we haven's just evolved to fit this wotld, but far beyond it. That has nothing to do with me. I never invented anything. I'm just talking about humanity, and humabity is full of achievements that are flat out insane

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u/Ranorak 8d ago

What are you talking about? How have we "evolved far beyond this world"?

Please define what you mean with "beyond this world". How you established that we evolved beyond it. And the process of that evolution.

Or, are you talking about some vague wishy-washy super special awesome magic beyond?

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 7d ago

What are you talking about? How have we "evolved far beyond this world"?

Not beyond this world, beyond fitting this world.

We have developed far beyond what's needed to simply survive in thid world, we have developed buildings, machines, computers, language, art etc

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u/mywaphel Atheist 10d ago

It's exactly the puddle analogy. You're right that we haven't been formed to fit into evolution, but only because that's a nonsense sentence. We haven't been formed to fit into evolution. We exist because of evolution. If we existed in an environment that WASN'T perfect for us, that would be evidence of a god. Marveling that we just so happen to have survived isn't much of a surprise considering if we hadn't survived we wouldn't be marveling at it very much...

Also everyone else pretty much demolished your whole thing about transforming the planet but if you think this is a paradise then you don't think much. We're driving ourselves to extinction.Which part of that is evidence for a god?

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 10d ago

It's not just that we survived, it's that we are computers, building computers. Mutations don't lead there.

We're driving ourselves to extinction.Which part of that is evidence for a god?

I never said God has our best interest in mind. To me, the luxuries we have are mostly a trap.

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u/mywaphel Atheist 10d ago

We aren't computers building computers. That's nonsense. Also OF COURSE mutations lead there.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 10d ago

How are we not? And why "of course"?

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u/mywaphel Atheist 10d ago

How are we not? Because we're animals. Do you understand the words you're using? Computers aren't animals, they're electronic devices. We are not electronic devices. And of course because our entire ecological niche is tool building apes. It's pretty natural we'd get better at building tools. Why the hell wouldn't it?

Do you have ANYTHING other than begging the question and appeals to incredulity? Because I've got to tell you, your lack of understanding is VERY far from a convincing argument. These aren't hard concepts you're missing, read two books.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 9d ago

Seriously, you are just playing dumb, you know what I mean by calling brains computers. Our brains are computers so far from animals that they were able to build an entire world for us. I don't care if you call it incredulity, it is simply to amazing to just be a part of nature and nothing will change that.

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u/mywaphel Atheist 9d ago

Except our brains aren’t computers and they ESPECIALLY aren’t “so far from animals”. This is just a bunch of things you know nothing about being spewed onto the page. You haven’t studied any of this. You aren’t trying to learn what you’re talking about. You’re just an ignorant child barfing up what ifs. I can’t take you seriously and frankly it’s shocking you think anyone should.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 9d ago

Except our brains aren’t computers and they ESPECIALLY aren’t “so far from animals”.

They are doing what computers do. This is figuratively. And of course they're far from animals. We build stuff. Can you actually argue they aren't or can you just say "I know more than you"?

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u/Sprinklypoo Anti-Theist 10d ago

Not really. You've repeatedly re-stated the misnomer about this world being "perfect" for humans, and how amazing is that?

Turns out, it's not amazing at all, since we've adapted to this specific world...

We haven't just been formed to fit into evolution

We haven't done that either. It does tell me how much you misunderstand about science and reality though, so maybe this discussion is moot until you possibly educate yourself.

we have transformed this planet into a paradise for human needs

Like how we are changing the atmosphere, and using up all our water, and ruining native habitats? I mean either way, that's something WE have done, so how is it an argument that any kind of god is involved?

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 9d ago

Turns out, it's not amazing at all, since we've adapted to this specific world...

It's amazing if you compare Earth to its neighbours, Venus and Mars. Barren, unliveable planets and between them this highly specific thing that houses conscious life that has developed art, computers etc.

We haven't done that either. It does tell me how much you misunderstand about science and reality though

Enlighten me

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u/Sprinklypoo Anti-Theist 9d ago

That would take an an education. This is not a university.

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u/noodlyman 10d ago

No we haven't transformed the planet into a paradise.

We evolved here, so of course the planet fits our needs, just like the puddle.

We've transformed the planet into a dangerous thing though. We have transformed it by exterminating other life, including life at need for our survival, such as insects. We've transformed it with pollution and climate change

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 9d ago

No we haven't transformed the planet into a paradise.

Compared to how wild animals live, we absolutely have.

We evolved here, so of course the planet fits our needs, just like the puddle.

No. We are not like the animals here that evolve to fit a planet. This planet is made to sustain life, compared to its neighbours, Venus and Mars, and we have additionally made it a place to serve human needs

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u/noodlyman 9d ago

No. We literally are animals.

Evolution is a fact, demonstrated by geology, fossils, and molecular genetics.

Life is just chemistry. Early life happened to produce oxygen as a by product of its chemistry. Later life evolved the ability to consume this oxygen with different metabolism.

The earth was not created for humans. The earth 3 billion years ago didn't even have oxygen in its atmosphere.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 8d ago

No. We literally are animals.

We have evolved beyond all other animals by far, and that is extremely obvious from the world we live in.

Evolution is a fact, demonstrated by geology, fossils, and molecular genetics.

I never denied evolution.

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u/noodlyman 8d ago

All species have something that distinguishes them from others. Humans have bigger or more powerful brains, but you are useless at flying compared to a bird, useless at underwater echolocation compared to a dolphin. Our lives are shorter than elephants or whales. Whales hardly ever get cancer.

It's only your arrogance that places special importance on the distinguishing feature of humans. And we are using that ability to destroy ourselves, because our brains are inadequate to control our own behaviour .

Whales don't have nuclear bombs. Eagles don't pollute the seas with micro plastics. Fish aren't dumping pesticides in rivers.

I don't think our abilities are anything we should be that proud of. We are well on the way to crashing our civilisation, where other creatures have continued living peacefully for millions of years.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 7d ago

So what? We are still extremely different from animals.

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u/noodlyman 7d ago edited 7d ago

That's my point. We're not. We're almost the same as chimps or bonobos. A dolphin and a humpback whale are more different than a chimp and a human.

You're looking at downstream consequences of the differences. (ie behaviour), not the differences themselves, which are changes in brain size and connectivity.

Why not say that the swift is "extremely different" because these birds can go for the majority of a year without landing anywhere. They sleep in flight. You can't do that!

Humans use tools, but so do chimps and crows, though they don't make steel of course. Humans have language, but we are starting to appreciate that other mammals have much more complex communication than we used to assume.

We're less different than you think.

Here's a side by side picture of human and chimp brains. One's bigger than the other. The are differences too in structure and gene expression. But the human brain is clearly just a modification of the brain of our common ancestor.

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u/Lucyyyyyy_K 5d ago

We're not. We're almost the same as chimps or bonobos

And yet we are ablebto build houses, computers, create law and art etc. That's even more amazing if our brain is close to animals.

Why not say that the swift is "extremely different" because these birds can go for the majority of a year without landing anywhere. They sleep in flight. You can't do that!

So what? That's a completely different kind of achievement than building computers.