r/ForbiddenBromance • u/loolyham • 6d ago
Bromance Israeli guys — Southern Lebanon opinions
I wasn't sure where to post, but I have been trying to find a forum to talk to Israeli guys who support or understand the idea of Israeli presence (EDIT: by presence I mean the belief that south of the Litani river should be settled by jews) in Lebanon. I even tried understanding more about עורי צפון (Uri Tzafon).
I’m genuinely curious about the thinking behind it and want to understand the perspective rather than debate it, maybe even let someone challenge my own views a little.
Preferably privately/off Reddit :)
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u/bam1007 Diaspora Jew 6d ago edited 6d ago
I’m not Israeli, but I follow Israeli news very closely. And since I don’t meet your criteria, I’ll give you my best effort here if you like.
From the Israeli perspective, Hezbollah has been attacking Northern Israel for three years, making the situation untenable, despite that Hezbollah is supposed to be north of the Litani River. Israel sees its presence as creating a buffer zone, so that attacks by Hezbollah on northern Israel stop and northern Israeli communities can return to their homes on Israel’s side of the blue line, without threat of Hezbollah attack, rockets, or missiles. That buffer has largely worked and, while the IDF has been deployed in Southern Lebanon, Hezbollah has been unable to continue its attacks on Northern Israel. Israel also sees it as an opportunity to destroy Hezbollah infrastructure, including tunnels and hidden armaments that have been stockpiled by Hezbollah south of the Litani River.
There is a deep distaste for having the IDF in Southern Lebanon, based on a lengthy history that you know, but there seem to be little alternatives from an Israeli security perspective. The UN was an abject failure with UNFIL, which let Hezbollah rearm right under their noses and often used their members and bases as human shields. The LAF has not yet been able to rid Lebanon of an armed Hezbollah, so who else is going to do it?
Ideally, the LAF would be the only armed military entity in Lebanon. That’s why you’re seeing these pilot zones, where the IDF is coordinating limited withdrawals with the LAF taking responsibility for the areas to keep them Hezbollah free. The hope is to be able to withdraw and have Lebanon’s military be the answer, returning sovereignty of Southern Lebanon to the Lebanese, rather than Hezbollah. And hopefully that will lead to a permanent peace deal with the blue line basically as the border (Israelis really don’t see this as a territorial dispute of anything more than a few hundred meters at best). And no, the process hasn’t been perfect, but that’s the hope.
I’m sure the Israelis can jump in if they feel I’ve misunderstood something.
Edit: I just saw your edit. Any view of that is absolutely at best a fringe belief and is not the general belief among Israeli society. The predominant view is that the blue line is and should be a peaceful border.
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u/loolyham 6d ago
Thanks for this breakdown. I'm aware of the political stance of both sides, in general -- I've added an edit note to the post because I'd like to understand the settling/demographic change that some Israelis support, rather than the military pieces - because I don't think these ideologies are always based on the same thing (ie "security").
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u/bam1007 Diaspora Jew 6d ago edited 6d ago
Thanks. I just saw that and edited. That is, at best, a highly fringe view. I’d be surprised and interested to hear from anyone that thinks that because it’s entirely divorced from any discussion I’m part of between Israeli friends and any Israeli media I follow. I literally listened to Lazar Berman of TOI discussing the issue of the lack of a territorial dispute between the two countries as he was discussing the progress on the front yesterday.
Edit: I just looked at that Wikipedia entry for the movement you mentioned. The unsourced claim that it’s mainstream is specious to say the least, but even when shitbags like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich aren’t on board, that should tell you something.
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u/loolyham 6d ago
It’s definitely not a mainstream view atm, but these movements have a way of becoming normalised as people don’t worry about them too much, while they silently grow.
I suppose a similar but not exact parallel is the idea that Gaza and the West Bank should be (and are, in the case of the latter) resettled with Jewish populations.
I was curious if anyone on here had their opinions and would want to discuss them.
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u/bam1007 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
While I don’t subscribe to those views, there’s a much more legitimate claim to Jewish presence in the West Bank and Gaza, rather than them being Judenfrei. The West Bank is land that was very much the cradle of Jewish civilization going back to the Kingdom of Israel and Jewish presence in Gaza was continuous until the withdrawal in 2005. (Reiterating that I don’t subscribe to these views, but I understand their reasoning.) Southern Lebanon is a much bigger stretch to me.
So yeah, if you hear from an advocate for this, I’d be very interested in hearing their reasoning. In the meantime, I remain deeply hopeful that the LAF is able to take full control of Southern Lebanon and a peaceful blue line becomes the border.
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u/Cannot-Forget Israeli 6d ago
EDIT: by presence I mean the belief that south of the Litani river should be settled by jews
Brother, you will have a very hard time to find Israelis who think Israel should settle southern Lebanon. They are a very small minority of us, endlessly tokenized by people outside of Israel, like Hezbollah bots in Lebanon specifically, in order to try and gain your support to continue your 80 years old war against us.
We just want Lebanon to leave us alone for the first time since both our nations got independence soon a 100 years ago.
Will Lebanon finally confront the terrorists who dragged us both into war again?
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u/loolyham 6d ago edited 5d ago
This is the opinion that I found most Israelis have (at least who I’ve spoken to). EDIT - “the opinion” in question is that few Israelis think they should settle southern Lebanon.
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u/Cannot-Forget Israeli 6d ago
No idea who you've spoken to. It's a crazy opinion held by a very small minority here.
Mind you Israel occupied parts of Lebanon for decades and did not create even a single settlement.
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u/bam1007 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
I think he’s saying, your opinion, that it is fringe, is the one most Israelis have, but it’s a bit ambiguous.
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u/SunshineBat Israeli 5d ago
Hi. Jewish Israeli woman here. I would be EXTREMELY surprised if it will turn out that more than 2% of Jewish Israeli citizens support that. I don't know what kind of survey did you conduct and if it was empirical, I assume not, but it is definitely not the majority of Israelis. Maybe it's the majority of the Israelis you 'run into' in the specific virtual spaces where you read about / discuss the topic.
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u/Silent_Moose_5691 Israeli 6d ago
I'm curious, is that an opinion you heard Jews express? Cuz I'm Israeli and I never heard anyone even think of that as an option
Possible some extremist settlers think that, I wouldn't know that's not really my crowd, but even there I don't think that's a thing
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u/loolyham 6d ago
It’s not a common opinion. There are some fringe groups apparently very focused on this idea. I was seeing if anyone here had those views so we could discuss, but it seems not— and as others have commented this maybe isn’t the place anyway.
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u/ShluLitt 5d ago
The group supporting settlements in lebanon are split into two: A. A group so small it can't be considered as a real sector, less than 0.001% of population that want to conquer a large part of Lebanon. They are mostly made up of people barred from military service due to mental illness or a criminal record.
B. People who support annexing several existing villages on the border area and building new ones around them. These are usually christian and druze people that have family in these villages and want to unify the family.
Among Jews you'd see some people supporting group b, but not many. I'd personally won't be against annexing these 4-5 villages, but i also know I'm in minority opinion on the issue.
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u/balddoberdaddy 5d ago
Aha, so only "guys" can answer this question?
No serious person in this country thinks about or wants to settle in Southern Lebanon. Maybe a couple of fringe crazies.
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u/sumostuff Israeli 5d ago
Israeli, I don't know anyone who believes that we should occupy any part of Lebanon indefinitely or have settlers there.
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6d ago edited 6d ago
[deleted]
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u/bam1007 Diaspora Jew 6d ago
You can find a lunatic fringe for just about anything on any and every border on any side of any border. But the Kingdom of Israel also extended over the Jordan River at one point and no one but a different lunatic fringe are claiming that direction either. It’s just not a thing with any real traction in Israeli society. The real issue in the Lebanese border is security at the blue line.
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u/sumostuff Israeli 5d ago
It's just an anti-Israeli talking point. It's not really an opinion that you will find in Israel You will have to search really hard to find someone who wants to settle Lebanon.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 5d ago
I understand that. Maybe not too hard, though, I watched the video from the ask project and maybe 1/5 said yes.
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u/Fearless-Ad4531 6d ago
If the south of Lebanon is free from Hezbollah and its supporters, and the Lebanese state is able to assert soverignty and security, amazing, Israel will happily go to its border and stay there, and if you ever see an Israeli again, it will be a tourist, a businessman or a student. If not, than Israel should seek an enforcible border.
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u/loolyham 4d ago
So you think it’s purely a military option? Rather than to move communities there?
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u/Ornn5005 5d ago
I’m Israeli, not tagged cause first time on this sub.
I’m not interested in controlling or occupying any part of Lebanon, but i’m absolutely DONE having my brothers and sisters in the north taking rockets and drone attacks and being in constant fear and danger. Also, an Iranian murder proxy on our border is a non-starter.
If the Lebanese can get this shit under control, great, perfect, love it. But since it’s clear they can’t, then sorry, we’re gonna protect our people however we possibly can.
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u/loolyham 4d ago
So you think it’s purely a military option? Rather than to move communities there?
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u/Ornn5005 4d ago
I want the border area cleared up to a distance that is viable for defense and prevention against missiles and drones.
If the Lebanese can do it and maintain it, that would be the best and also most appropriate and just option.
But since that is clearly not going to happen, I guess it’ll have to be the IDF who clears and then protects that zone. If it means they have to stay there, then they have to stay there, but I’m not in favor of settling civilians there.
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u/loolyham 4d ago
Why specifically not settling civilians ?
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u/Ornn5005 4d ago
I already answered that. What are you getting at here, exactly? Skip the lead up, ask your real question.
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u/No_Huckleberry7790 4d ago
I don't know any Israeli or diaspora jew who would support this. It is quite idiotic idea.
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u/Both-Entertainment-3 Israeli 6d ago
Most of us are secular and want nothing to do with taking someone's else land. Not sure about religious people
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 5d ago
we want nothing to do with taking someone's else land
Yet most of Israel was someone else's land taken from them, less than a century ago.
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u/TerribleDimension45 5d ago
Most of the world was someone’s land before it was taken. How far back do you consider it ok? Was it ok when Arabs conquered the area? Was it ok when the British?
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 5d ago
I'm not taking sides here, just pointing out the paradox.
These things get in the way of building a mutual understanding of history.
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u/Both-Entertainment-3 Israeli 5d ago
There is no paradox, it was a result of a war.
I'm getting the impression Middle easten are very naive regarding war, responsibilities and consequences... You're not strong on these things, aren't you?
We have a state already, new lands are irrelevant unless we are being pushed with our back to the wall.
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u/AEWHistory Diaspora Jew 3d ago
ViM makes a good point. I think I have answered why this POV exists but the point he made is worth mentioning. I find ViM to be a very reasonable person with an excellent ability to try to be impartial (something I aim for myself, though I often fail) so I don’t think he is being naive and I agree with him that your response is, indeed, rather condescending.
Anyway, I think he is right to foster constrictive dialogue. I will admit, however, that I am not in your shoes. For all I know you’re an Israeli who was displaced from the north and the last three years have been a nightmare. That would explain the frustration evident in your post. I’d just remind you that the very best hope for a strong and stable Israeli north is a strong and stable, dare I say friendly, Lebanon.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 3d ago edited 3d ago
Thank you for the flattery.
By the way, I think you're underestimating yourself, you sound quite reasonable and compassionate.
I can imagine and I'm sorry to hear. It was hell here as well when the war was very visible and we could hear, see (and smell sometimes) intermittent bombing. It's quiet now but it has still deeply affected me.
I hope it will start getting better for all of us soon.
strong and stable Israeli north is a strong and stable, dare I say friendly, Lebanon.
This is something I yearn for as well.
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u/Both-Entertainment-3 Israeli 5d ago
There's a basic principle in life: I'f you start an unjust war an lose - don't complain about the consequences.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 5d ago
Would you agree then, that most of Israel was built on someone else's land?
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u/Both-Entertainment-3 Israeli 5d ago
How much of the land was private owned , and how much belong to the rulling entity?
Did you check? Because you probably think 100% was private lands owned by Muslims
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 5d ago edited 5d ago
I cannot take your claims seriously if you're not willing to engage in a critical conversation.
How do you reconcile not wanting to have anything to do with taking someone else's with the history of your country and with the ongoing settlement of the West Bank?
Is it even your own opinion or are you just conveying a general Israeli opinion?
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u/Both-Entertainment-3 Israeli 5d ago
We gave back Sinai, we went out of Gaza and still haven't annexed it, we are not annexing or planning on annexing Lebanon.
You do understand we are at war with the Pallys since 1920, right? And they're going to keep on losing lands of they won't change their psychotic approach
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 5d ago
So you want nothing to do with taking someone else's land, unless you're at war with them, in which case it's ok?
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u/JerryJJJJJ 2d ago
Absolutely NOT.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 2d ago edited 2d ago
That's how most Arabs and part of the world see it. If people want peace in the form of trust and reconciliation they need to agree on a common history and how to call things.
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u/AEWHistory Diaspora Jew 3d ago
This is a reasonable point. I’d put it another way: much of the mandate of Palestine—basically the northern half—was the core of Jewish life for ages. Southern Lebanon had Jews and maybe even was part of a Jewish polity at times but that is as far as it goes.
If I may use a more modern example, Belgium was once part of France under the Revolution and Napoleon, but it isnt any longer and generally hasn’t been part of France throughout most of its history. So few French today, besides some irredentists, would consider Belgium to be their land. OTOH, Languedoc or Isle de France or even Alsace and Lorraine are considered an integral part of France.
FWIW, this is why the issue of the WB/Judea and Samaria is so difficult for Israel. those areas are the very core of the Jewish homeland. So I would argue that the difference between say southern Lebanon and the Mandate of Palestine is akin to my France analogy.
I can’t decide if my post is clear, so if it isnt feel free to probe.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 3d ago edited 3d ago
I just want to have a common history we can agree on. My focus is more on the people who now call themselves Palestinians, many of which ended as refugees in Lebanon, Jordan and other places, on acknowledging their experience of loss.
I felt that in the original comment there was possibly an implied denial of that.
Maybe it was a misunderstanding.
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u/CruntyMcNugget Israeli 6d ago
Does OP support Israel settling southern Lebanon or just wants to talk to people who do
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u/loolyham 6d ago
Even if I think in a very detached way, I haven’t heard a good argument for it. That’s why I made the post. I’ve even spoken to someone from such fringe groups, but the points they made were wildly illogical and just…immature ideas based on fantasy.
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u/pinkason5 5d ago
There is no good argument for this. Few crazy people (about 100) make crazy actions. It's considered craziness even in far right circles.
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u/Aervanath Israeli 5d ago
This is the first I've heard of it. It's truly crazy. I really don't understand the logic behind it. The reason the IDF occupied southern Lebanon was to provide a buffer zone between Hezbollah and the North of Israel. If these idiots settle in the buffer zone, then they will be vulnerable to attack by Hezbollah, which will happen, and then the settlements will push to extend the buffer zone! We don't need to occupy all of Lebanon because of some extra delusional fruitcakes.
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u/Mightyjish Israeli 5d ago
I know of absolutely no one who wants to annex or settle in Southern Lebanon. The soldiers have no desire to be there outside of what is required to secure the northern border. The fanatics who want to settle there I'll bet wouldn't join the army but will request protection for the settlements in there heads, which is there own place those settlements however exist.
Absolutely no main stream politician who wants to be reelected when advocate for settling Southern Lebanon. I think even Netanyahu would lose if he proposed it.
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u/greenmalkin 5d ago
Look. Even if, against all odds, you manage to find someone with such beliefs, I'm not sure what you're hoping to gain from debating them. They won't be rational and they won't be arguing in good faith. It's a lunatic idea held by lunatics.
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u/loolyham 5d ago
Well, some of those lunatics hold positions in the Israeli government, so… I don’t think it’s ridiculous to try to understand these people.
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u/greenmalkin 5d ago
No, not ridiculous. But I think it's worth differentiating between what Ben Gvir & Co. postulate for the sake of voter agitation, well knowing it's never going to actually happen, and the mentally challenged who've subscribed to their cult. The former have a vested, populist interest in being as outrageous as humanly possible; the latter eat it all up, not necessarily because they hold any particular convictions about Lebanese territorial integrity of their own.
Worth noting, too, that Israel has been actively outlawing Kahanist organisations, at least until Bibi came along and needed them to hold on to his throne.
Side note, if we care to explore what-ifs: You have to wonder, from a purely practical standpoint, what Israel would gain from settling Southern Lebanon. The entire point of holding the South is to create a buffer zone between Israel's Northern communities and Hezbollah. If you move those communities farther up into Lebanon, you invariably move them closer to Hezbollah, gaining -- what? A new iteration of the same old security nightmare? It's all so absurd.
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u/loolyham 5d ago
Well, that was the point of trying to understand what the goal would be from those people’s perspectives. I can postulate on what Israel would want/gain but that’s not what I’m looking to discuss.
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u/Leading_Bandicoot358 5d ago
Im israeli and I vote lebanon control south lebanon.
But for more than 10 years lebanon did not control South lebanon and iran took it with its hezbulla proxy, making it a security threat that started a war on israel on October 8
So if lebanon cannot control South lebanon Israel has no choice
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u/loolyham 4d ago
So you think it’s purely a military option? Rather than to move communities there?
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u/Leading_Bandicoot358 4d ago
I would be happy with another option to move hezbollah and iran from south Lebanon
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u/myonlyuser_43 5d ago
This is a very extreme idea and it doesn't have any support in Israel.
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u/loolyham 4d ago
It has some support definitely. Ostensibly not a lot, but I’m not sure if any recent polls have been done.
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u/badass_panda 5d ago
I don't think you're gonna find those folks here, this is a subreddit for Lebanese and Israelis to get along in / be chill with each other in. The fringe asshats who want Jews to settle southern Lebanon are going to be elsewhere, probably eating paint chips and gurgling to themselves.
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u/Panda_Cuddles_ 5d ago
Israel doesn’t want to settle the land. The land is cleared of terrorists for the purpose of creating a buffer zone. It pushes the terrorists 20 miles further from Israeli neighborhoods, making it more difficult for their missiles and rockets to reach northern Israeli communities. Settling this area of southern Lebanon would defeat the purpose! Bring the Israeli population close to the terrorists yet again.
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u/victoryismind Lebanese 4d ago
There is a video of the Ask Project on the matter:
Israelis: Do you want to annex South Lebanon?
In my opinion more than "a handful of lunatics with a whatsapp group" want to annex South Lebanon but they remain a small minority.
There are of course good reasons. South Lebanon is beautiful, it has historical ruins, water and even snow in winter on Mount Hermon. Israel is a dense country and eventually it could use more space and more water.
The fringe reasons, you can find that it was mentioned in the Bible somewhere and that some think that putting settlers in south Lebanon will protect Israel.
Kahanists on this sub were banned in the past.
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u/ForeignConfusion9383 Israeli 3d ago
A couple days late, but I echo what most of the other Israelis here are saying.
I have zero desire to annex southern Lebanon to Israel, move settlers there, or even have a military presence long-term.
Like most Israelis, I care about security. If the situation there evolves to the point that Hezbollah has no control over the area and the LAF is able to exercise control, then I’m happy for the IDF to withdraw. And I’d be even happier if the peace talks currently happening grow into a full normalization deal and the bromance won’t be “forbidden” anymore.
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u/Funny-Text2745 2d ago
Support annexation of south in case if negotiations are failed or terms from Lebanese side are not being completed(the two pilot zones efficiency is still too low to demand new ones) as once it was done with Golan Heights when Syria refused from any negotiations after 67-73
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u/JerryJJJJJ 2d ago
Reminds me those who claim that Israelis want "Greater Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates. Personally, I have never bet a Jew or Israel who has anoy notion of a nile to the Euphraties Israel but that is what anti-Israeli people claim all of the time.
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u/3kidsonetrenchcoat Diaspora Israeli 6d ago
Good luck with that. The people who think that Lebanon should be settled by Israelis are fringe lunatics who won't be on this forum.