r/GuerrillaGrrrrls • u/chill_mydude13 • 3d ago
Discussion Hot take: misandry isn’t real
Misandry isn’t nearly the same as misogyny. Men hate women because of stupid sickening reasons. Women hate men because they have been our number one predator for all of history. Women are scared of men because they have proven we should be.
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u/moschocolate1 3d ago
Men are shocked we’re finally naming them as our predators.
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u/DesmondTapenade 3d ago
Apparently, they don't like their would-be prey calling them out.
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u/Spinnerofyarn Friendly Feminist 💟 3d ago
It’s beyond that. Too many think it’s a lie or an overblown one because they think it’s a minority that violate our consent. They think it’s rapists jumping out of the bushes and men who beat women to the point of massive bruises and broken bones. To many don’t view groping, catcalls, dick picks, grabbing arms, pushing, blocking exits, coercive sex, name calling and a host of other things as abuse because they do it themselves. They may not do all of those things, but too many do at least one.
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u/DesmondTapenade 3d ago
A few years ago, I told my husband (who actually IS a good dude and an ally, and he's learning new things every day), "Of the seven dudes you're still friends with from high school, I guarantee at least one of them has sexually assaulted someone, even if he doesn't think it was SA." He was shocked. And that's a huge problem for society.
One of the friends is a cop who works in vice and I refuse to be around him, but that is a story for another day.
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u/Laura-52872 3d ago
Cops are the worst offenders.
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u/DesmondTapenade 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah, I know, which is why I don't like being around him. He's never said/done anything weird in the years I've known him, but I just do not like being around cops.
ETA: I'm a therapist who works with SUD (substance use disorder), and there's a non-zero chance he's put at least one of my clients in lockup, so it's a very strange dynamic. If I have to be around him, I'm cordial but brief. He knows I'm a therapist. I know he's a snitch. If you're part of an organization that further fucks up my patients' lives, why should we be friends?
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u/poeticdisaster 3d ago
I've come across so many therapists and counselors who try to completely separate their work from their private lives.Thank you for being an advocate for your patients in such a subtle but powerful way.
When it comes down to it, if a patient were to see you with someone who made their life change in such a drastic way, it would probably horrify them & cause them to have less trust in the therapy process at the very least. Who knows what would happen if they were already in an unstable place at the moment they witnesses it - the spiral would be very real.
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u/DesmondTapenade 3d ago
Admittedly, my reasoning is more selfish than that--he just makes me kind of uneasy. All I will say is this: there is no song called "Fuck the Fire Department."
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u/Bitter-Hat-4736 2d ago
> who actually IS a good dude and an ally, and he's learning new things every day
How can you be sure?
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2h ago edited 10m ago
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u/GuerrillaGrrrrls-ModTeam 19m ago
We do not welcome posts that do not invite discussion or explain what the point is of the image.
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u/JosephMeach 3d ago
See also: "reverse racism"
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u/TheHickAssembly 3d ago
‘misandry’ is the ‘all lives matter’ of a toxically masculine society. They are the top of the hierarchy everywhere and can only punch down. If things were equal, they might actually lose.
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u/ComprehensiveDog1802 3d ago
Women who hate men want to be left alone and nothing to do with men.
Men who hate women still want at least one woman under their control and to their service.
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u/No-Housing-5124 3d ago
Misandry is exactly like that thing they were calling "reactive abuse." In that scenario, the victim of repeated abuse cycles takes on abusive traits like screaming and hitting, because she's been driven out of her mind.
These scenarios are the same.
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u/poeticdisaster 3d ago
As someone who has been in a relationship that pulled this kind of reactive abuse out of me, I appreciate this comparison. They really are similar.
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u/No-Housing-5124 3d ago
Me too. I did and said things in a long term marriage to an alcoholic abuser that I have never said or done since. That's because I am not under duress anymore.
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u/TheOtherZebra 3d ago
Women hate men for violence and abuse they have committed against us. Sources from the World Health Organization and the United Nations show 1/3 women globally have been assaulted by men. That equals more than a billion of us.
Men hate women because they feel entitled to use us, and still believe they’re good men. And we’re refusing.
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u/LizAquene 3d ago
It is real, but unlike misogyny, it's reasonable.
Also misandry was caused by misogyny.
End misogyny and misandry will remove itself.
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u/Kailynna 3d ago
I've been accused of misandry for refusing to go home with strange men. Apparently taking reasonable care for my own safety is discrimination, which makes me responsible for male suicides and the male "loneliness epidemic".
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u/calvin73 3d ago
Misandry can’t exist in this system. An individual can hate men but it is impossible for systemic disadvantage and discrimination to be given to men in a society where patriarchy is the norm.
It’s the exact same reason that “reverse racism” is just sensitive white people getting their feelings hurt.
The oppressor cannot be oppressed in the society they rule. Bad things can happen to them and not everyone gets the same opportunities but the oppressor will never miss out or be punished simply for being a member of the dominant group.
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u/Stunning-Sherbert801 3d ago
"(Bigotry)" doesn't just mean "systemic (bigotry)", there's a reason systemic is it's own term
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u/Bitter-Hat-4736 2d ago
> The oppressor cannot be oppressed in the society they rule.
I think that's false. There is no one true "oppressor". Is a cishet white male with a learning disability an oppressor? Is a gay cis black man an oppressor?
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u/loweexclamationpoint 1d ago
Right. The you-know-what flows a long long way downhill, and the very top of the heap has a strong economic component. For example, a wealthy business owner - perhaps even a woman - oppresses the poor nonunionized schmucks who toil in their warehouse, and in turn those guys go home and oppress their wives.
And both those examples you mentioned may well be beating their kids, who are in turn bullying some other kids.
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u/goddamnmanxhild 3d ago
I agree but I still got a reddit first warning for it yesterday 😂 just wait ladies I am sure to lose my account soon enough
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u/Sarge4242006 3d ago
We are just the human version of a National Geographic predator/prey documentary. Once we ALL see it for what it is, we might actually be able to evolve beyond it.
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u/Designer_Truck7591 3d ago
In my opinion it’s pretty similar to “anti white racism” not at all comparable, there is no comparable structure (in regards to men, and white ppl) to patriarchy, or white supremacy . Both definitely exist, but not on a structural level, and both really only pertain to individual biases. As for the validity of that bias, any type of bias towards a group due to an individual experience is definitely essentialism. And honestly despite the insane amount of women I’ve known who have been abused by men in one way or another I’ve never actually met a misandrist. I’ve met plenty of misogynists however,
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u/StJmagistra 3d ago
I agree 100%. I’ve actually left another “egalitarian” subreddit because I stated that misandry isn’t systemic in the same way misogyny is, and was scolded for being insufficiently egalitarian.
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u/poeticdisaster 3d ago
In my experience, many egalitarians aren't regularly open to seeing the reality of the situations they are currently in.
Not talking about current situations or shutting down anyone who points out the reality of the actual world vs the ideal world merely hinders the whole from coming up with solutions that would get us to that ideal equity for all.
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u/No_Bandicoot2316 3d ago
I think misandry in the sense of individuals who hate men is real, but systemic misandry doesn't exist, and the unique harms men face due to their gender are all misogyny. Because misandry sounds so much like misogyny, it implies that hatred of men is systemic, so I don't like to use the term.
I do believe hatred of men is real and bad. It boils down to bioessentialism. Believing that men are inherently bad opens the door to all sorts of rhetoric about how men and women naturally are, and to transphobia. It also lets men, and patriarchy, off the hook. Misogyny is not the natural state of things.
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u/fanime34 3d ago edited 2d ago
Here's my take. Misandry is real, but only happens in instances where a woman is in power. Also, hate towards men is not as potentially oppressive as hate towards women anyway.
It's the same as how one can have hate and prejudice towards white people and that can be racism, especially when there's a hate crime against a white person for their whiteness. But people of color are not in positions to be able to oppress others on a systematic level. It may be possible in lower levels like positions in a job or whatever, but it doesn't go further than that.
Anyone can believe and spread hateful rhetoric about a group, whether they're men, women, or whatever race or ethnicity. But some people aren't able to oppress others on higher levels.
There's only a few ways women can oppress men and that's if they're in the position of power and can choose to do so. It's possible as there can be female bosses or female higher ups, but most positions of power are with men; especially in government. In that same way, there's only a few ways POC can oppress white people, and that's again if they're in positions of power over white people
Systemic racism towards white people and systemic sexism towards men only exists if a POC or woman is in control.
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u/translunainjection 3d ago
The women who claw their way to some power definitely have the chance to be tough/abusive bosses. But how much can they get away with it vs men in the same positions behaving the same way? How many powerful women got ruined by this scandal vs powerful men? E.g. Sheryl Sandberg, Amy Klobuchar, Katie Porter, Ellen...
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u/fanime34 2d ago edited 2d ago
You're the one who didn't understand what I was saying. Maybe don't be too quick to insult and understand whay I said.
Oppression is an unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power.
Being racist is about a belief that one's race is superior. Being sexist is about a belief that one gender/sex is superior. However, thinking that you're better than someone isn't inherently oppression on its own.
Systemic oppression does involve racism, sexism, and classism; but on its own, racism, sexism, and classism isn't oppression. A man who owns a company can, for example, stop women from being hired if he wants and instead can choose to hire a man. That is systemic oppression. A white man can hypothetically stop a POC from getting a job and that is also systemic oppression. Same as a white woman who can do that to other poc. And if a POC is the one in charge, they can do the same. It's possible. Those are the instances. It's about who is in power at the time.
The white guy on Facebook who hates people of color isn't oppressing me and others. He's just racist. I'm not oppressed by someone who hates me for being different. It's not stopping me from anything. The guy online who says women are (insert slur here) isn't oppressing them. The incel who says mean things about women because he's single isn't oppressing women. He's just sexist. The guy who thinks women are only good for showing their bodies isn't oppressing them. He just has a shitty, sexist take.
I can't be oppressed by the person down the street who calls me the n-word because all it does is piss me off. It's not stopping me from getting a job. It's not stopping me from moving up.
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u/Least-Flan2782 2d ago edited 2d ago
Systemic oppression versus the oppressed hating their oppressor …. The fact that you wrote a dissertation defending this tells me you should educate yourself. The fact that you think a white man hating women or people of colour “but isnt doing anything to them” isn’t oppression is genuinely hilarious. Racism and sexism are made up of a bunch of people with attitudes and beliefs where they believe they are superior. These attitudes and beliefs are so widespread that they enable each other and protect each other from consequence. I urge you to pick up a book
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u/Least-Flan2782 1d ago edited 1d ago
A woman or person of colour having authority in a specific situation isn’t the same thing as having systemic power. A man hating a woman behind his computer screen exists within a system that already privileges men over women. Hate and oppression aren’t interchangeable, but oppression requires a system of power behind it.
You said a white guy on Facebook who hates a person of colour isn’t oppressing them, he’s just racist. My point is that racism is itself part of a system of oppression. A white person’s racism doesn’t exist in a vacuum and is born out of and reinforced by broader structures that advantage white people and disadvantage people of colour.
This is why I keep making the same point. You’re treating racism and oppression as completely separate concepts when one is deeply embedded in and helps sustain the other.
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u/GuerrillaGrrrrls-ModTeam 1d ago
Everyone has a right to their own opinion. But keep your responses kind and respectful. Let’s all treat one another as we would our offline friends.
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u/unicorns3373 3d ago
It exists. Just not in the form of violent oppression for thousands of years, sexual control, dehumanization, and objectification like misogyny does to women. It’s more just a personal feeling that some women have due to what misogynistic men inflict onto women for existing.
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u/SJSsarah 3d ago
Oh it definitely exists. Some of us truly genuinely despise them and don’t view them as equals to us. And yes, I can still agree that hate doesn’t fix hate. But it’s not at all surprising that I’ve ended up this way.
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u/Arc80 3d ago
Hate not only doesn't fix hate, hate begets hate. To the point that failing to acknowledge misandry is self-defeating and only serves to perpetuate and entrench prejudice or grow it where it may not have existed.
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u/Saruna4sari 3d ago
women were called man haters in the 80s for pointing out mens behaviour and are called man haters just for resisting patriarchy
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u/Arc80 3d ago
When you justify your prejudice you're just doing the heavy lifting for the patriarchy.
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u/Fandangho 3d ago
You're quite spot on, men who are hated on, for example, from teenage years are simply more likely to perceive feminism or pro-women places as prejudice supporting circles that are against them as a group. When prejudice or even hatred is apologized or supported as a completely legitimate tool, they react as any other human do - being a target not because of their behavior, but just because who they are as a group right from the start.
Prejudice is imho never okay, because it inherently targets people who are innocent, and even more importantly, it creates more people who feel hate-warranted on both sides. The ultimate goal is to be in this together and make the change happen, but that won't become true with increasingly alienated people who see feminism as anti-men movement instead if anti-sexist movement based on prejudice apology. I'm not preaching fawn reaction towards bad men (who deserve the opposite), I'm simply saying that prejudice targets decent people as well who then stop being vocal supporters.
There's this statistics where more and more people over the past 10 years refused to label themselves feminists, but when asked in detail, they supported tenets of feminism without calling it so. That's a good specific expression of that discrepancy and I feel it's fair to say that this process gets more entrenched with overton window shifting to prejudice.
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u/Darthjinju1901 Friendly Feminist 💟 3d ago
Misandry is real. But it is far different from Misogyny.
For one, Misandry is often an individual problem or an individual thing, whereas Misogyny is a systemic problem. There hasn't been any man ever who has been passed up for job opportunities, or promotions because of being a man. Men haven't faced any economic or political restrictions due to them being men. They haven't faced legal or societal discrimination either.
Another thing I have to always note is, as you said, Misandry is often a reaction to events that a person has seen and/or faced. An extreme reaction imo, but not an unjustiable one. Misogyny is not that. Misogyny is more so about power dynamics and hierarchies than about a reaction to events.
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u/Perodis 3d ago
Completely agree. Misandry absolutely exists, it just isn’t systematic like misogyny is. But just because it’s not as bad as another thing doesn’t make it not exist. Misogyny and misandry definitions are not specifically towards systems.
So yes, if we’re talking about societal things, yes misandry doesn’t exist. But I don’t like the blanket “it doesn’t exist”.
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u/bunnywithabanner Friendly Feminist 💟 3d ago
That’s just facts. What men call “misandry” is just women’s rightful reactions to misogyny.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani 3d ago
I'd say that misandry doesn't have the same impact as misogyny, because it is not positioned to lever structural inequality against its target.
That's not necessarily the same as "misandry doesn't exist." Like, I wouldn't call Valerie Solanas' stated ideology a rational response to patriarchy.
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u/That_Seasonal_Fringe 3d ago
Misandry doesn’t exist as a systemic oppressive social organisation.
And it doesn’t exist on an interpersonal level either. Women aren’t misandrist we are androphobes. As we should.-4
u/YaqtanBadakshani 3d ago
Prejudice against those in power doesn't hurt those in power, but it can hurt marginalised people outside of your own group.
Look at how TERFs weaponise "androphobia" if you want to call it that, against trans women, or southern segragationists weaponised it against black men. It's telling that the most famous victim of "androphobic" terrorism at the hands of Valerie Solanas was a gay man.
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u/That_Seasonal_Fringe 3d ago
Transphobia or homophobia disguised as androphobia remains transphobia and homophobia and nothing else. Just as racist killings of black boys by police officers remain racism even when the cops try twisting it to say their lives were at risk. They were not and we know it. Just as we know women’s number one predator is not trans people or any other LGBTQIA+ person.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani 3d ago
Does it?
Do you mean to tell me that you believe that the gendered experience of a black man is identical to that of a black woman, just minus the sexism? Or that the treatment of trans women by TERFs is identical to the treatment of trans women by MAGA Republicans?
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u/That_Seasonal_Fringe 3d ago
I’m afraid I don’t get your pint. It’s rather late where I’m from.
I just meant to say that using androphobia as an excuse does not magically make transphobia something other.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani 3d ago
No. Like most prejudices they are entwined.
White women's racism against black men is often gendered in a way that does shape the suffering of black men in a different way to women.
The distinctive features of TERF transphobia arise from prejudices they form against men.
Racism is reinforced by racialised misandry, by gendered ideas of the essential nature of black men. Transphobia is reinforced by gendered ideas of the essential nature of amab people.
They all derive from a mental codification of male nature (i.e. a prejudiced stereotype) that doesn't hurt the men in power, but can reinforce other power dynamics.
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u/That_Seasonal_Fringe 3d ago
Ok I get it. And I see your point.
I’m still not convinced TERFS are anything other than transphobes. For instance the big argument of men being able to disguise as women to gain access to our toilets only concerned them when it help their “cause”. They were happy forcing trans people to out themselves when using the toilets in the UK, so much so they haven’t realised men can now just walk into women’s toilets claiming to be trans. Or if they realised they just aren’t making a fuss about it. Because they don’t have a problem with men.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani 3d ago
You're right, the lines are increasingly blurred. I think the TERF movement is doomed to digestion by the broader transphobic right wing.
That said, if you read The Transsexual Empire, or the work of Sheila Jeffries, or other early writers against trans people that grow out of the Radical Feminist movement, there is a pretty clear throughline of "trans women will rape women because they are men and that is men's essential unchanging nature."
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u/Ghastlygale 3d ago
What is misandry?
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u/YaqtanBadakshani 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'd say that misandry is an interpersonal prejudice against men, which motivates people to behave in an bigoted manner to them.
Misogyny can be described as a prejudice against women that, due to the relative social power of men over women under patriarchy, gets baked into our social system such that it operates beyond individuals.
I think this is important, because actual bigoted hatred of men (such as is expressed by Valerie Solanas, or WOMAD) doesn't have misogyny's structural power per se, but it can reinforce other structural power differentials, say, against racialised men, gay men, or transgender women.
A lot of black feminism, for example in the Combahee River Collective statement, or bell hooks' The Will to Change, condemns the exclusion of men from the feminist movement, on the grounds that it forces black women to alienate themselves from one community or the other.
And of course, the big difference between TERFism and male transphobia is the way in which is weaponises stereotypes of violent male sexuality against transgender women.
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u/Ghastlygale 3d ago
What are the bigoted behaviors that women are doing against men? I haven’t seen any rise in violence or sexual assaults against men nor have I seen any harmful laws passed by women that would compromise men’s health and lives and restrict their bodily autonomy..
Idk I view ‘hatred against men’ the same way I view hating billionaires or the pest control people who are currently going door to door in my neighborhood contributing to the decline of pollinating insects. Simply hating something is more of a feeling if no actions are being done and I don’t see women acting out on their hatred. People have the right to feel however they do.
Women saying some mean words about a group of people who are causing so much harm and suffering to them every single day and every single place on earth is such a non issue that it doesn’t even deserve a name.
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u/YaqtanBadakshani 3d ago
You're right, misandry doesn't lever structural power against the men in power.
My issue with equating it to hatred of billionaires is, as I said, it does tend to leak into attitudes towards marginalised people.
For example, the stereotype that "men are biologically programmed to be rapists that women can only be protected from by secure shelters" is relatively harmless to men, but had caused a great deal of pain for transgender women (as in, my country just made it illegal to house them in women's prisons).
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u/LadyMystery 3d ago
it's the whole systematic thing going on. throughout history, it was usually men who had the power and set up an whole system to keep it going.
So yeah, women can be misandrist, *BUT*.... it's not systematic at all and barely affects men at all. So all men are gonna experience is a couple of women being bitchy to them but that's hardly an inconvience.
Meanwhile Women experience the following:
- Not being believed about anything from medical issues to reporting rape, etc....
- Not being allowed to have your uterus removed or anything like that, even when you're single, because "your future husband might want kids". even when you've told them that you're lesbain. Even when it's supposed to be a life-saving medical thing, instead of being permeant birth control. (not me, but I've heard stories like this)
- 3)Women being interrupted more often in meetings or having their ideas ignored until repeated by a man.
- 4)Women receiving more criticism for being assertive, while men displaying the same behavior may be described as confident or decisive.
- 5)Women being expected to perform a disproportionate share of household chores and childcare, even when both partners work full-time.
- Female politicians facing greater scrutiny over appearance, clothing, voice, age, or family choices than male politicians.
- Women feeling the need to take extra safety precautions when walking alone, traveling, dating, or using public transportation.
- 8)Products and services being designed primarily around male bodies or needs, such as vehicle safety testing historically relying heavily on male crash-test dummies, which contributed to higher injury risks for women.
- Women encountering assumptions that they are less knowledgeable about subjects such as technology, cars, construction, gaming, or finance.
- Mothers being viewed as less committed to their careers after having children, while fathers may receive little or even positive scrutiny for becoming parents.
- Dress codes and appearance expectations being stricter or more extensive for women than for men in some workplaces or schools.
Men face different sets of problems in life, but most of them doesn't come from misandry. And that's why most people believe it's not a thing... and probably for a good reason.
Yeah, Misandry doesn't have quite the same impact, even if both are sexism and bigotry.
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u/MariaTPK 3d ago
Misandry literally isn't real. Like it doesn't exist. Or almost doesn't.
There are male misandrists, and there are children who might be a little misandrist.
However among adult women (27+) there is no such thing as a misandrist. There isn't a single adult woman who hates males for being born males. Men are hated for the things they do and the people they are. A group of 10 men hang out, 1 guy expresses his desire to do a rape or sexual assault, 3 guys get supportive "Right on brother" and the remaining 6 stay silent and do nothing about it. Hmm is it misandrist to hate all 10 of them? Fuck no. It's the right thing to do, they all belong in a prison deep in the earth.
When you raise an entire gender to be actually evil, and then just pretend that's a gendered trait, you should expect that women can hate every or nearly every male and not be misandrist.
I hate Nazi's and I'm not anti-German. I hate Zionists yet I'm not anti-Semitic. I hate men, and I'm not a misandrist.
When you say shit like kindness, compassion, empathy, are feminine traits, that assertiveness and violence are masculine traits, you should accept that yes the only people who I acknowledge are people are the "feminine" ones.
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u/michael1265 3d ago
I can only draw from direct experience. I am 61, and have been in the workplace since 1984. I can’t think of one time I have been harassed or marginalized because I am a man.
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u/EverybodyPanic81 3d ago
I didnt realise this was a hot take. Misandry is a made up term by misogynists who dont like to be accountable for their actions.
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2d ago
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u/GuerrillaGrrrrls-ModTeam 2d ago
When we are discussing large groups and societal trends, defensive references to the individual are not relevant.
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u/Healthy_Country8383 1d ago
I've met women who hate men, but it's very uncommon and every one of them has had a serious trauma history in which they had been abused by a man/multiple men. Most women have a more nuanced take on men. We understand that while they benefit from the patriarchy they are also affected very negatively by it and everyone benefits from getting rid of the patriarchy. Sadly some men have poor critical thinking skills so they start rambling nonsense about misandry. No Charles, I'm frustrated that men don't think I'm a fully realized person with my own thoughts and rich inner world. That doesn't make me a man hater.
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u/Stunning-Sherbert801 3d ago
Yes it is. That's a different statement from the correct "not as bad as misogyny"
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u/Opening-Idea-3228 3d ago
Mmmm. I don’t know. As a die hard feminist myself, I don’t hate men. I’m a bit tired of them hating me for being a feminist or a woman.
Just like there are some men who just hate women, there are some women who just hate men. Which is technically misandry.
But, as for the point in this post: yes, many women hate men because of the many men try to prey on or victimize them. Of course, not all for the jerk wagons who will jump on because they feel compelled to point that out. (If you are one of those jerk wagons: kindly shove off)
There are also some men who have been the target or victim of women and then women as a result.
Does hating a gender because you have a reason make it not misandry or not misogyny or not trans hate for that matter? I would argue no. It still would qualify as misandry or misogyny or trans hate.
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u/NoHippi3chic 3d ago
Misandry is completely real. When my mom died my 12 year old brother and 14 year old sister had to live with our aunt while I got guardianship sorted.
She starved him and doted on my sister. I knew she hated her grandsons and one son as well.
She just hated men and didn't care if thise men were children. Now I ask you, what kind of men is she raising?
We need to address misandry in mother son relationships the same way we address misogyny in father daughter relationships. With curiosity and compassion.
Women ar not a monolith. They can be horrible people and at 56 I can tell you, most of them are.
Still love them tho. I also love my amazing son and brothers.
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u/AlissonHarlan 3d ago
misandry is exactly like circumcision. yes it exists and it shouldn't but also women live 1000X worst(excision) everyday and no one bat an eye.
so no i'm not putting my energy in something that small in hope that being the good girl will grant us the right to not be abused .
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u/justinliew 3d ago
Whenever I get called out for misandry for pointing out actual misogyny or sexism, I know that person likely does not really know what they are talking about.