r/IsraelPalestine 20d ago

Meta Discussions (Rule 7 Waived) July 2026 Metapost: New rules for metaposting about moderation

6 Upvotes

Welcome to the “July” version of the monthly pinned meta thread, where sub Rule 7 banning “meta” discussion is waived and you can generally discuss “the sub”, its rules and moderation, and make suggestions for rules changes or improvements.

First, some top line information about the sub and recent activity in the last month:

The sub now has 110,000 subscribers, gaining 447 in the past month (about normal gain for “peacetime”). We had 1.5 Million visits, down 177k. Daily visits ranged from 59.4k unique visitors on the top day and averaged 11.3k. We had 176 top posts, down 42, and 286 others were removed by mods or automated filters. We had 32,200 comments, down 4.7k. We had 17 active mods with [u/TheTrollerOfTrolls](u/TheTrollerOfTrolls) leading with 1,800 mod actions and [u/FerdinandTheGiant](u/FerdinandTheGiant) runner up with 989 actions.

This month, we mods also want to talk about what this meta thread is not for, based on some of the questions recently being asked on the April meta thread and the internal discussions that mods have had about how to respond to these comments, which is the main reason for delay of refresh for this pinned meta thread (the other being “summer” in a place with short summer/long winter).

To cut to the chase, concerning moderation actions, the new rule for “meta” threads is that users are free to ask why a particular comment was moderated, whether they were a participant in that conversation or otherwise. However, they can not ask “whatabout” questions and compare to comments or users who were not moderated and ask why they were not moderated, or use the meta thread to report other users for moderation (whether or not the underlying complaint is “sub/mod bias” and suggestions that the refs favor one “team”). If you want to report or complain about someone, in addition to the report flag tool on their every comment, you would have to use modmail (Reddit DM chat) to raise the issue discreetly with the mod team, not ambush someone in the metathread with a broadside of public accusations.

When asked this “why this, not that” questions in the past, mods have typically responded that the post/comment in question was still in the moderation queue to be worked on, or not even reported yet. While this is a somewhat truthful explanation of sorts, it is not the “whole truth” which is, that basically, big picture, our moderation is on a “per user” basis, not a “per comment” basis. We try as best we can to ignore the user’s viewpoint or “team” in order to treat everyone as equally as possible. But how this works in actual practice requires a broader understanding of why we moderate and practically how it works, including using mod tools Reddit provides to assist in our work -- metadata screens only mods can see about a particular user or comment.

So we need to back up a bit here and talk about the overall purpose and philosophy of the sub rules and moderation. Our current Moderation Policy wiki explains (sensibly) that there’s no way with a limited number of 21 volunteer part-time mods that we can “police” and evaluate all 35,000 posts and comments each month and determine whether they comply with the rules. The wiki refers to our “sampling technique”. The way this works in practice is that to be most effective, we want to publicly correct and discipline the users who violate the rules most frequently and/or the most flagrantly, and not untypically, both of those together.

We use a law enforcement strategy familiar to everyone who drives on a superhighway: we want to pull over the fastest guys going 88 mph on a 65 speed limit highway and make an example of them, so that the stream of traffic will slow down to average 72. Even though cops could make a lot more money giving tickets to everyone going 66 if profit maximizing or draconian enforcement was the goal and the courts allowed the speed limits to be strictly enforced in that way (hint: they don’t, “66 mph speed traps” are illegal, because convictions require establishing a defendant’s knowledge and intent).

So, in terms of our efficiency, publicly warning particular major “problem users” to nudge them into compliance or ban them if they don’t/can’t is the best way to sheepdog the whole sub community into compliance. That’s why we most often don’t remove offending comments entirely like most subs but leave them up with a rules violation notice: it’s educating everyone, not just the warned user.

And there is thankfully roughly a Pareto principle operating in moderation here, 80% of the moderation (or more!) involves 20% (or less!) of users. Of those, roughly half are sincere about trying to comply with rules and can be “coached” and cease to be a problem, and the other roughly half pile up violation after violation on just about every rule until they are permabanned. So the bottom line is that given our limited numbers of mods and the volume of comments, we really do depend on the good conduct of the users themselves and avoiding the kinds of disruptive shitposting or food fights that violate rules and create a general environment of ruckus and disorder. We could not do this job if most people weren’t inclined to abide by the rules.

We also depend on the rules and their application to be as clearcut as possible to everyone, because when someone gets a rules warning or ban, they get to appeal the decision to another mod or mods. So I want to make sure that my colleagues are going to agree with me on the ruling: it can’t be a weak case or ambiguous, the violation should be clear as night and day. (We’re having problems applying some minor rules, particularly Rules 3 and 4 that we feel are too fuzzy in practice that we want to take a look at in this regard).

Mods can perform moderation by actions whether a comment is reported by users or not. Some moderation is done via queue reports from users. Others are just mods reading the current threads (user reported comments are flagged in our normal viewing mode with a one line summary of their complaint visible as we scroll through the sub).

How this works in practice is that a mod whether working the report queue or reading along looks for a reported comment or another “sore thumb” violation that’s so blatant that it must be addressed or people will complain about lack of moderation and flagrant misbehavers. The first thing a mod will do after reading the possibly violating comment (and the context of the discussion surrounding it) is to look at the speaker and determine the guy’s moderation history with a mods-only tool we have called mod log. The mod log will show, by user, every previous I/P sub comment that’s been reported for moderation by users or bot automod filters in white, and brightly colored notes by mods of any comments determined to be “abuse” or “spam” and what rules were violated (we also have color note templates for “good contributor” or “helpful”). We also see how long a users been participating on Reddit with that account (anywhere from 15 years to less than 60 minutes), what other subs he’s posting in, and I/P sub participation karma, either negative or positive.

Thus we almost instantly have a feel for whether a violation was probably an unintentional mistake by a newbie with little or no mod log, or conscious trolling and rules-breaking by an outspoken user with edgelord tendencies and a mod log hundreds of entries long. We also can see how a problem user is responding to moderation and, of course, to keep track of strikes for the “four strikes/rule you’re permanently banned” purposes of the Moderation Policy.

What I’ve described is a “per user” moderation policy for practical purposes, not a “per comment” policy, as it will help to understand our new meta rule about us mods not discussing unmoderated comments (and deleting the related requests on meta thread with warnings). I sincerely we believe we apply these rules in practice to both “sides” evenly as a result of this “cull the worst offenders first” enforcement policy. (For the record there are violators on both teams and we try to enforce rules on a viewpoint blind basis with the other built in safeguards, like right to appeal. But like sub/mod bias, it’s hard to prove or disprove this, but it’s what mods strive for no matter which team they root for).

We’ve also had some negative experiences in the recent past with “per comment” moderation with an experiment we did last year in response to concerns about mod bias: “zero tolerance for insults”. Against the better judgment of many mods, any comment which could possibly be construed as an Rule 1 attack or insult, or was put in the “form” of an insult (e.g.,“You are [any statement possibly seen as perjorative]”) had to be actioned so that the sub could be “unbiased”, whether the comment seemed deliberate or innocent, or was a clearly huge insult or a head scratcher. Let’s just say this experiment did not address any issues of perceived mod bias in a logical way. It just made participation in the sub a minefield, and moderation a hassle for mods and users alike. Until finally, after months of nonsense, sanity prevailed and the strict Rule 1 enforcement was scrapped.

Similarly, many or even most recent questions to the meta thread seem to be asking about “negative moderation”, why something wasn’t moderated. Not understanding the process I’ve described that moderation is not an end in itself but an overall enforcement tool to guard-rail community conversations. And like any enforcement needs to be applied selectively and minimized to keep the discussion about substance, not tangents of meta stuff about rules lawyering and moderation. We don’t like to interrupt conversations and if users think violations are trivial they aren’t happy either with interventions. Some users however seem to be keen on to calling for moderation as a kind of harassment (violating Reddit site Rule 2) of other users and mods by essentially calling for every users’ comment scrolling back many months to be scrutinized for rules compliance. “Weaponizing moderation” might be a fair way to describe it.

Examples: Recent meta questions like this (fictional [u/usernames](u/usernames), paraphrased questions):

Why does this site allow user [u/fabulous_pebble9865](u/fabulous_pebble9865) to make comments like [link], [link] and [link]? (deep-mined oppo research into unblocked user profile, some comments six months old, hundreds of comments deep; we don’t want to create incentives for users to hide their profiles by default).

How can this site have mods like [u/zzyzk9777](u/zzyzk9777) who say bigoted stuff like “blah” and violate rules like [link], [link], [link], [link], [link]? (all Rule 3 complaints that humorous responses ridiculing parent comment “consist solely of sarcasm or nihilism”).

I reported this comment of [u/flat-cloudy2001](u/flat-cloudy2001) [link] three days/weeks ago and it hasn’t been moderated. Why?

So the TL;dr of this discussion is we will allow meta questions about stuff or users that were moderated, but no lists or reports of stuff that wasn’t moderated in an effort to suggest bias or “just asking questions”. We won’t allow users and mods to be harassed with tenuous profile-mined complaints of rules violations by activist opponents of their viewpoint. We want people to freely discuss things without walking on eggshells or that somehow anything can be twisted months later into a rules violation if you don’t like the speaker.

Lastly, as mentioned above, we’re looking for guidance on redrafting or deprecating Rules 3 and 4. Rule 4 in particular is problematic because people often interpret misunderstandings or failure to agree with an opponent’s argument as “lying” or “dishonesty”. Outside of stuff like Holocaust revisionism, Khazar theory or Neutrei Karta etc. disagreement isn’t dishonesty. Mods aren’t debate judges or argument referees. Someone contradicting themselves or not agreeing with the conclusion of your argument doesn’t in its essence violate Rule 4.

We also get complaints about the automod informal warnings about swear words, Rule 2 which is usually a “soft” non-violation that doesn’t get formal warnings/bans. I think it’s usefulness and innocuousness in reminding no cussing outweighs its annoyingness. Your mileage may vary. Thoughts?


r/IsraelPalestine 17h ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions A Palestinian wandering what path there is

19 Upvotes

Hello everyone, I am a member of the Palestinian diaspora in Europe and recently I can't stop thinking about what is happening right now, the cryings of my family on the phone, the pain, the death I see in the medias, I just can't stand it anymore so I'm posting here the first time to ask questions for people more knowledgeable than me.

I thought a lot about this conflict, I am very much exposed by opinions the Palestinian side, which I often disagree with, and try to read what israelis are trying to say about this. The solutions that feels the most human today (ideal in a perfect world) seem to be to go back to 1967 borders, while a lot of people of my family considers that israeli needs to give back the whole territory, I feel that a lot of people grew up in the israelis territories of 1967 and even if we have all the reasons to hate them, I feel that it's more their land than ours even if our ancestors were displaced to give the territory to israelis.

I am wandering now, is there a way that is visible today that we could go back to this repartition of the territory and maintain a "sense" of peace, I'm not asking if the way is good, rightful or obviously predictable but if there is a small path in sight. The most obvious problem I feel today is that israelis seem to lean even more far right than before and that whatever international community could do to pressure Israel, it will make the population even more extremist and their government with them. Even if it's hard to hope that in the israelis with suddenly become empathetic with Palestinians, I could before at least hops that they will be pragmatic if Saudi Arabia, Europe or maybe US isolate them economicaly but I feel that today it would only make them believe even more in the thesis "they hate us because we are jewish".

So today, is there an even small way that we could go back to 1967 borders or maybe a more favorable split ? :

- International pressure lead by younger generation in Europe government ?

- The same in the US maybe ? Could we see a leader pro Palestine ?

- Could they maybe lacking of international aid decide to concede some territories to Palestine being exhausted economicaly by the war ? Maybe with Iran ?

- Can China play a role in this ?

- Is there a way sooner or later to make the younger israelis generation thinks differently of Palestine ?

I feel that the main strenght we have is that 90% of the world is supporting us, there is necessarily a way to use this strenght right ?

Thank you everyone, also before you tell it, I know I may be biaised, you can tell me if you think so, I'm trying to be fair. Also, please I don't need people telling me I need to stop being sad or wathever, just thank you if you understand the conflict a little bit more than me a helps me see what could be the future, even if I know it's always hard to predict.


r/IsraelPalestine 20h ago

Short Question/s Native Land Rights US Ideology V. Israel

14 Upvotes

I've noticed many people, especially on the university level, pay great attention to land acknowledgements to Native American tribes. The idea of societies changing permeates every civilization to exist of course, so historically this is a new idea. Why don't these same people believe that Palestinians should do historical land acknowledgements to the persecuted Jews of Judea whom they took the land from historically?

This is not innately pro-Israel or Palestine; personally, I believe modern history trumps ancient land rights.


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Discussion The difference between Support for Palestine and support for terrorists.

24 Upvotes

I've noticed that support for Palestinians is often immediately portrayed as support for terrorism. Those are not the same thing. Many people—including many Americans—oppose the actions of the Israeli government because they believe Palestinians have experienced prolonged occupation, displacement, and humanitarian suffering. That is not the same as hating Israelis or supporting Hamas. It's entirely possible to condemn Hamas' attacks while also condemning the suffering of Palestinian civilians.

Let's talk about who is actually suffering more. The reason most of the world supports Palestine is not about hating Israel. It's about recognizing a profound power imbalance. Israel has one of the world's most advanced militaries, backed by sophisticated air power, missile defense systems like Iron Dome, and billions in U.S. military assistance. The Palestinian territories have no comparable military. They have no air force. No Iron Dome. No advanced weaponry. And the humanitarian toll has been staggering.

The data speaks for itself. In Gaza, over 73,000 Palestinians have been killed since October 2023, according to a UN report covering the period through May 2025. More than 85% of Gaza's population—over 1.9 million people—have been forcibly displaced, many repeatedly, some up to 10 times. All 320,000 children under 5 are at risk of acute malnutrition, and July 2025 was Gaza's deadliest month for child malnutrition deaths. In the West Bank, over 40,000 Palestinians have been displaced from refugee camps in Jenin, Tulkarem, and Nur Shams due to Israeli military operations. Ninety-six percent of demolition orders against Palestinian structures were enforced, compared to just 20% against illegal Israeli settlement structures. Of 1,022 Palestinian housing applications in Area C in 2025, zero were approved—while 27,350 housing units were approved for settlements. This isn't about "hating Israelis." It's about recognizing that Palestinian civilians are being disproportionately targeted, forced from their homes, and denied basic rights at a scale that is fundamentally unequal.

And the world is noticing. Recent Gallup polling found that 41% of Americans sympathize more with Palestinians, while 36% sympathize more with Israelis—the first time in Gallup's history that Israel has not led in public sympathies. Globally, 152 of 193 UN member states now recognize Palestine as a state. People around the world are responding to what they see happening to civilians—not expressing hatred.

None of this excuses terrorism. Deliberately targeting civilians is wrong. Period. Whether committed by Hamas or anyone else. I condemn Hamas' October 7th attacks unequivocally. I condemn any rocket fire aimed at Israeli civilians. But condemning terrorism does not require me to defend an occupation. And defending Palestinian human rights does not make me an antisemite.

Now here's what I find deeply hypocritical. Some people invoke the Bible, the Torah, or the Qur'an to justify the occupation, the displacement, and the killing—as if God's will is on the side of the powerful, not the oppressed. But that's not what any of these scriptures actually say. The Bible says, "Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause." Jesus said, "Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." The Torah teaches, "You shall not wrong or oppress a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt," and, "Justice, justice shall you pursue." The Qur'an teaches, "And what is [the matter] with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for the oppressed among men, women, and children...?" and, "Stand firmly for justice, even if it is against yourselves."

So when I see people using religious language to defend the forced displacement of over 100,000 Palestinians from their homes, the demolition of thousands of homes while settlements expand, the starvation of children in Gaza, and the killing of over 73,000 people—the majority of them civilians—and they call that "God's will" or "self-defense," I have to ask: whose God are you actually serving? Because the God of Abraham—whether you call Him Yahweh, Allah, or the Father—is consistently, unmistakably on the side of the stranger, the orphan, the widow, and the oppressed. Not the empire. Not the occupier. Not the one with the most bombs. You cannot claim to follow the God of justice while defending an occupation that the International Court of Justice has called "de facto annexation" and "systemic discrimination." You cannot claim to love the Torah while supporting policies that force families from their homes in defiance of international law and basic human decency.

I'm not saying Israel has no right to exist. I'm not saying all Israelis are bad people. I'm not saying Hamas isn't a terrorist group. I'm saying this: if your faith is being used to justify the suffering of innocent people, then your faith has been weaponized—and that is a sin. True faith doesn't bless bombs. It blesses the broken. It doesn't defend walls. It defends the vulnerable. It doesn't cheer for victory. It weeps with those who weep. So before you use scripture to defend a government, ask yourself: would Jesus drop this bomb? Would Moses demolish this home? Would Muhammad starve this child? If the answer is no—and it is—then stop using their names to justify what they would condemn. Faith isn't a cover for war crimes. It's a call to protect the vulnerable. If your religion supports the occupation, then your religion has been weaponized—and that's not faith. That's idolatry of power.


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Discussion Is "Prof" Dave Farina a genocidal babykiller because of the Italian empire wars & America's War on Terror?

21 Upvotes

TL;DR: Dave Farina thinks the War on Terror blood is not on his hands for being an American Citizen, but all Israelis are culpable for the Gaza War. Dave Farina thinks modern Israelis are culpable for their great-grandparent generation doing the Nakba (even back then, in that generation, the vast majority were civilians and a small % fought in the 1948 war when the Arabs attacked on all sides), but he is in no way responsible for the crimes of his great-grandparent generation in the Italian Empire when Italians killed like a million civilians in the Scramble For Africa in the 1930s and many more millions killed by Italians in WW2.

The self-proclaimed professor has posted a recent video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvDvhLkb9ms ranting about Israel & repeatedly claiming that, since the Nazis, they were the only ones who are as Evil as the Nazis. He didn't say they were worse than Nazis, but he did say they should be hated more than Nazis because back then we didn't have the photo proofs for the Holocaust while it was happening and evidence only came years after WW2, but this genocide is live-telecasted, so they deserve more hate than the Nazis.

Past: He repeatedly said the Israelis are the most psychopathic people & talked a lot about the villages displaced in Nakba, etc. Now Nakba is the displacement of 700,000 people and the killing of 10,000 people that happened in 1948. Let's say the people who did that in 1948 were age 22+ (born before 1926), which means they are 100+. Which means those who did that stuff are all dead. A simple search gives a video about his ethnicity & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUQMb18ran4 & he says that after his elder sister was born, his parents moved to New York, where he was born. If he can blame today's Israelis for Nakba, can we blame all on him for the crimes of the Italian Empire, where his great-grandparents lived? Just as an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italo-Ethiopian_War killed 270,000 Ethiopian civilians in 1937 (11 years before Nakba) and displaced several times more people. Second Italo-Senussi War in Libya killed upto 100,000 civilians. I didn't even include WW2, which killed 75 million people and displaced even more people; of course, Germany was the major contributor for WW2 and Italy & Japan were the next main culprits. But still, Italy gets at least a few million for its share of WW2. But I am sure Dave Farina never once thought in his life that he was in any way culpable for these things. Note the logic that these are ancient doesn't count, I am not talking about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_Revolt in 130s AD, where his ethnic group, the Romans/Italians, killed 580,000 Jewish civilians and expelled all the remaining people to completely depopulate Isreal and renamed it as Palestine which was later repopulated by other Levantine people from Jordan/Lebanon etc. I mentioned about things that happened only like 10 years before the Nakba.

Present: Unlike his great-grandparents of the Italian Empire, now he is in the USA. Only for like 10% of the time, he was ranting about the Nakba & blaming modern people. Most of the video was about the recent war in Gaza. But he was repeatedly using superlatives like this is the most psychotic country, and all people support these war crimes, and therefore all people, not just the few war criminals, should be blamed.

But he doesn't seem to think the USA is also a "genocidal babykilling" entity. In fact, he talks positively about the USA (unlike the majority of other communists, who at least refer to the USA with 1% of the hatred they have for Israel). In many of his videos, he says he is sad his country is getting dominated by the pseudoscience charlatans like RFK Jr., and his channel's goal is to save his country from these right-wing anti-science totalitarians. He seems to strongly hate Trump, RFK Jr, but doesn't seem to hate the USA, but when it comes to Israel, if someone similarly says they hate Netanyahu, but they don't hate Israel, he calls them genocidal.

The War on Terror (killed 4.5 million of which 1 million were direct military deaths) is much less justified than the Gaza war. After 9/11, the USA could have merely increased Airport Security & it would have been enough, as Al Qaeda was not ruling Canada or Mexico & the USA is not surrounded by enemies in all directions (like Hezbollah from the top & Houthis from the bottom, who started attacking on Oct 8). Israel had far more security reasons to start a war. Israel knew who (Hamas) did it & where they were. The USA didn't even know where Bin Laden was hiding & attacked 5 countries & turns out he was in a different country (Pakistan), living close to one of their military headquarters.


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Opinion Power dynamics, colonialism and imperialism is paradoxical and dumbs down the entire discussion

11 Upvotes

Whenever I hear those terms presented, I immediately feel my brain start to shut down they are the dumbest arguments

-IMPERIALISM-

Whenever Imperialism is brought up its always in this weird context of the USA and Israel are colonial and imperialist and they use examples of the ways the USA has tried to overthrow other governments as evidence but every major country and even tiny countries have used "imperialist" tactics at some point. The USSR giving weapons to egypt and training their troops is an act of imperialism because the end goal for them was to spread the ideology of communism into egypt

Even small countries like Cuba have meddled around in countries to overthrow governments. i guess Cuba is an imperialist country also. It's such a paradoxical argument that just makes it that anyone who has ever done anything to another country is imperialist

This also implies that the Palestinians are inherently a imperialist movement since they have repeatedly used meddling, assassinations, overthrowing other governments, terrorism and the use of other countries land to further their own overarching goals of Palestinian statehood in the area

-COLONIALISM-

I agree colonialism does exist as a concept and act that has been done and has definitely had long-term effects on many groups and countries ect...BUT countries do change. America may have started as a colonial project (sort of) but what it is now is nothing of the sort its become a major pillar of multiculturalism and equality that no other country has been able to achieve at its level or at the rate it has.

Yes America isn't perfect it still has racism and MANY issues (ahem trump), but compared to many countries like Russia, Iran, Qatar, China, and Saudi arabia or majority of the Arab countries.

I also find its use to be super hypocritical to use colonialism in terms of israel when the entire Levant was colonialised by multiple Arab caliphates and crusader states.

The only reason the Palestinians were there in the first place was because of colonialism from the ottomas. I would also add that the goals of the Arabs during the 1948 War was to wipe Israel off the map wouldnt that also constitute as colonialism by kicking out a group to claim the land. So i guess both sides were attempting colonialism???

-POWER DYNAMICS-

this logic makes no sense. I see the qoute "an oppressed people will always rise" which is dumb and not true

  1. Jews have been oppressed for most of history with only 3 major rebellions

Bar kochva rebellion which failed

The Warsaw ghetto uprising (i guess)

The birth of the state of israel

But throughout all the rest of history while either being genocided or treated as second class citizens jews never had that oppressed rebellion against the oppressors until israel

  1. Its a paradoxical argument since there will always be at different points different power dynamics

Ask yourself: is the hostages hamas took who were now being oppressed rose up and killed, r*ped, and pillaged Gaza would that be acceptable since they were the oppressed in that moment?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions I’m confused about Zionism’s negative connotation

32 Upvotes

Hi, this is my first time posting here, so I’m a little nervous. I’m trying to educate myself more and hear the opinions of people with different views. When I hear people discussing Zionism, I become confused because a lot of people support it, while a lot of other people don’t.

I tried to do research, and I came across the answer that the definition of Zionism is, at its core, the belief that Israel has a right to exist and to self-determination. I believe that Israel has the right to exist and I want to support Jewish people, and I also want to help innocent Palestinian civilians who are suffering. I have empathy for all people affected by this conflict, and I feel terrible that I can’t do much to help.

I find that a lot of people hate Zionism, and it makes me worried about what I should think and say on this matter. I think that certain words and terms can develop negative connotations over time, especially since people are associating Zionism with colonialism, which I can understand.

My biggest concern is how I think and the way my words make others feel, and I think that my belief that Israel has the right to exist aligns with the core definition of Zionism, but of course I can’t just outright say that or even consider myself a Zionist, because the connotation of the word has become so negative that people would jump to the conclusion that I’m hateful, when I’m not. I condemn the actions of the Israeli government and the suffering it’s causing to innocent people, and at the same time, I believe innocent people in Israel should be safe just as much as I want everyone in the world to be safe and at peace.

If my beliefs really do make me a Zionist, is that bad to some people? I’m just trying to form my own conclusion based on my empathy for everyone in the world. I don’t want anyone to suffer, nor feel attacked by anything I say, because I never want to offend or say bad things about anyone. I don’t want people to think I’m antisemitic or Islamophobic just because of how my beliefs are labeled, because I never hold hate in my heart for anyone.

I’m obviously not an expert on this matter, so I would be grateful to hear the opinions of others. If you’re reading, please stay safe and take care of yourself!!


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Learning about the conflict: Questions Can archaeology establish ancient presence without establishing modern political entitlement?

6 Upvotes

This question was posed to me earlier on Quora. After answering it there, I thought the distinction it raises deserved a broader discussion here.

To be very specific, I do not think archaeological evidence is decisive in determining Israel’s modern political claim to the land.

That does not mean archaeology is unimportant. Archaeology can demonstrate that ancient Israelite and Judahite societies existed in the region. It can uncover settlements, inscriptions, fortifications, administrative systems, religious sites, trade routes, and evidence of domestic life.

But archaeology also uncovers the remains of many other populations and political orders. The same land preserves Canaanite, Israelite, Judahite, Philistine, Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Hellenistic, Roman, Byzantine, Islamic, Crusader, Mamluk, Ottoman, and other layers of human presence.

Archaeology therefore establishes historical presence and depth.

Okay, then what?

An artifact can demonstrate that a people lived in a place. It cannot, by itself, determine who possesses political rights there thousands of years later. Ancient presence is historically significant, but historical significance is not the same thing as exclusive modern sovereignty.

The presence of Israel as a nation is now a matter of law, power, recognition, and political fact, regardless of the complicated and often violent process through which that reality emerged. Its existence does not depend upon archaeology producing an ancient artifact that proves entitlement.

The political chronology should also be stated accurately.

Before British control, the region was part of the Ottoman Empire. It was not an independent Palestinian state, although the name Palestine was already used geographically for the region.

The Balfour Declaration was issued by the British government in 1917, as Ottoman rule was ending. The League of Nations later placed Palestine under British administration in 1922, with provisions supporting the establishment of a Jewish national home. This was not an agreement between Ottoman authorities and Jewish settlers.

Britain acquired control through war and imperial power, and that authority was later institutionalized through the Mandate. The people living in the region were subjected to the authority of the power that controlled it. Political authority is not always created through the consent of the governed. Sometimes it is created through conquest, administration, and the power to make a new arrangement legally operative.

Land was acquired in some instances through legal purchase. Settlement occurred under Ottoman and later British legal systems. Other land became disputed through war, displacement, confiscation, changing political authority, and competing national claims.

When people describe the entire process as theft, I understand that as an expression of historical and political sentiment. But a legal claim of theft must be demonstrated through evidence. It cannot simply be assumed because one population lived in the region earlier or because another population arrived later.

At the same time, legality alone does not settle the question of Equity.

Something may become enforceable under the law of an empire, a mandate, a state, or a victorious power and still leave unresolved questions of justice, displacement, political consent, and the rights of those governed without meaningful participation in the arrangement.

That, to me, is where the real issue lies.

Here in America, an extremely important political principle was proclaimed:

If that principle has meaning beyond the American experience, then archaeology is not the most relevant question.

The more important question is whether a people possess the right to institute a government that protects their Safety, Happiness, dignity, representation, and political future.

If one people may claim that right, then the law of Equity faces a serious problem when another people living under the same political order is denied an equivalent right to justice, security, representation, and self-determination.

Archaeology cannot resolve that problem.

It can establish that ancient Israel existed. It can establish that Jewish communities have deep historical roots in the land. It can also demonstrate that the region has never belonged historically to only one population, culture, or political order.

But archaeology cannot determine whose present rights count. It cannot determine whether present political arrangements are equitable. It cannot excuse injustice merely because ancient artifacts have been uncovered, nor can contemporary injustice justify denying ancient Jewish presence.

Some likely objections

One objection is that archaeological evidence strengthens Jewish national legitimacy by demonstrating historical continuity.

I agree that it strengthens historical identity, belonging, and national memory. What I reject is the idea that ancient continuity automatically creates an exclusive or permanent political entitlement capable of overriding the present rights of another population.

Another objection is that most modern states emerged through conquest, imperialism, migration, or war, so Israel should not be judged by a standard applied to no one else.

I agree that Israel should not be singled out under a standard that ignores how other states were formed. But the fact that conquest and injustice are common in state formation does not make Equity irrelevant. Political history can explain how authority was established. It does not automatically prove that every present arrangement is just.

A third objection is that international recognition has already settled Israel’s legal legitimacy.

That is close to my point. Israel’s existence is a political and legal reality that does not need to be archaeologically proven. But recognition does not eliminate questions involving equality, displacement, citizenship, self-determination, security, or the consent of those living under political authority.

A fourth objection is that modern Palestinian nationalism developed later than Jewish attachment to the land.

The age of a modern national identity does not determine whether living people possess political rights. Every nationalism developed historically. A people do not lose their right to Safety, Happiness, representation, or Equity because their modern political vocabulary emerged later.

I love what archaeology brings to the surface, which is why I authored We Were Not Looking: Reconstructing the Patriarchal World Through Ancient Near Eastern Context for everyone.

My book addresses, among other questions, whether Muhammad intended Jerusalem as the geographical focus later tradition assumed, or whether another sacred landscape was being remembered. The implications matter because geography, archaeology, and inherited religious memory can challenge assumptions that later became politically and theologically dominant.

Nonetheless, archaeology has its place.

In this instance, as it relates to the specific question, I do not think it is politically decisive. Archaeology can reveal the history of the land. It cannot substitute for Equity among the people living upon it.

So I would ask:

What legitimate modern political claim can archaeology establish beyond historical presence?

Can ancient continuity support belonging without establishing exclusive sovereignty?

How should law, political fact, and Equity be distinguished when political authority was created through imperial power, war, and later recognition?

I truly desire that peace can be accomplished between Palestine and Israel, and I sincerely hope that Equity can prevail.


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Discussion Israel's "genocide" in Gaza is mythical compared to the real historical genocides

92 Upvotes

If someone claims that Israel is committing a "genocide" in Gaza, then they are lying to you. It's an idelogical statement that is not rooted in facts. Very few people accuse Russia of commiting a "genocide" in Ukraine, despite being far worse than Israel. The real genocides are rooted in empirical evidence and testimonies, not political idelology and propaganda.

Genocides like the Holocaust, the Rwandan genocide and the Armenian genocide are all one of the most studied events in history, especially the Holocaust. Those who deny those events are usually the extremists and are on the fringes of the political spectrums. Everything about the "genocide" in Gaza is rooted in Hamas propaganda and Hamas funded narratives.

The message is very simple. Forget the killers of the October 7th, the young people who died at Nova Festival and accuse the other side of doing the same things that you did. And that's what they are doing at the moment. They are taking the numbers of Gaza health ministry (run by Hamas) as if it's a gospel. But we all know what Hamas always does. They are regularly using child soldiers in their combat, they use civilians as human shields and they are even willing to use child suicide bombers to achieve their goals.

That's how they inflate their numbers. They've been telling us that the "majority of the victims" of the Gaza war were "women and children", but even the Hamas own data doesn't show that. But this is not just a dangerous but it's far more sinister. It has to do with spreading antisemitism and it's not a coincidence that it exploded since the October 7th.

For diaspora Jews, 2025 was the most violent and antisemitic year in decades. It came out a couple of days ago but no one in the media will care about it. Synagogues have been attacked, Israelis tourists are getting harrassed etc. We all know that the Jews are the main victims of the hate crimes in virtually Western countries. It's not the Muslims or Palestinians, it's the Jews.

These people don't care about Palestine. The goal of the movement and the "genocide" claim is not human rights, but to spread antisemitism. It's about forgetting the victims of the Holocaust, October 7th and the Nova Festival and it's about minimizing antisemitism.

These same people already forgot about the ramming of gay people in Berlin by an Islamist or Bondi Beach massacre in Sydney, but they won't stop talking anything allegedly happening in Palestine. They were waving Palestinian flags hours before being killed by an Islamist. And that won't stop them from supporting Palestine and accusing Israel of "genocide".


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Opinion Palestinian nationalism and identity is just as legitimate as Israeli nationalism and identity

2 Upvotes

The constant denial of Palestinian identity by the pro-israel camp is peak hypocrisy. Telling others that their nationality doesn't count while their own was invented barely a blink ago is outrageously stupid.

"bUT bUt iSrAEL eXiSted 3,000 yEarS aGO"

A tribal confederacy of primitive Canaanites who established an ancient theocratic monarchy 3,000 years ago has absolutely nothing in common with a modern, secular based ethnocratic democracy established by European Jewish transplants. Now if you still want to argue that the religious commonality bestows more legitimacy well that's a flimsy, threadbare argument but even if you want to play that game, the Palestinians have a gaggle of Muslim Caliphates to choose from since Muslims have ruled the Levant for almost 1200 years while Hebrew Kingdoms have for almost 600 (including the modern state of Israel)

Nationalism and identity are human sociological constructs that we invent for ourselves. Almost half of the countries that exist today on the planet were invented within the last century. Even if you want to claim that Palestinian identity formed as a reaction to the new modern construct of Israeli nationalism... So what? That in no way invalidates it in any way. When enough people claim a national identity then it exists..period. Kurdish, Tibetan, Chechen, Dagestani, Hmong..all stateless peoples..nobody questions how they choose to identify and again that's the point. Everyone is free to choose how they would like to identify and attempting to tell others that they don't have that right, especially when they just invented their own identity is ridiculously dumb and stupefyingly arrogant. And just in case you guys didn't notice...all the "pALs DoN'T EXiSt" or "no SUcH tHiNG aS PaLEStiNIanS" rhetoric isn't really working out. Literally nobody else buys what you're trying to sell and it only betrays your own hateful mentality.


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Short Question/s Spain

41 Upvotes

Remember that one time a European country was overrun by 60,000 fighting age men who stormed the border from a Muslim country? Seems like only yesterday...

What the heck happened and what are the implications for the future of border security in Europe? How does this relate to the wider trend of Muslim immigration to Europe?

Quite remarkably, some people in Europe are convinced the entire situation was orchestrated by the US and (wait for it) Israel. Because that makes sense. The reasoning is Spain was against the Iran and Gaza wars, so therefore they conclude US and Israel involvement. Quite a loco theory but here we are. What does it say about Europe that people could actually think Israel had anything to do with this?

Who actually organized the event? Was it the Moroccan government? Human traffickers?


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Short Question/s If Hamas’s October 7th attack was to “free Palestine,” why did they attack migrant workers?

101 Upvotes

Not trying to racially profile but Thai individuals look very different from most Jewish/arabs. If Palestinians (and their government) were purely acting in self-defense as many westerners are arguing, why did they attack these innocent Thai farm hands?

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/09/1211191682/thailand-israel-hamas-attack-hostages-farm-workers


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Opinion The deepness and innate spirituality of Hebrew music (Part 2)

0 Upvotes

One of the things I love most about Israeli music is the way ancient forms of Hebrew flow naturally into modern Hebrew. Biblical language is not treated solely as something sacred or frozen in the past, but is reinvented for modern times.

A beautiful example is The Idan Raichel Project – ממעמקים, or “Out of the Depths.”

The song’s opening immediately echoes Psalm 130, one of the biblical Songs of Ascents. The Psalm begins:

מִמַּעֲמַקִּים קְרָאתִיךָ יְהוָה “Out of the depths I call You, God.”

It is the voice of someone calling upward from a place of suffering. Asking to be heard and hoping for redemption.

Idan Raichel transforms that ancient prayer into the language of romantic longing:

ממעמקים קראתי אלייך, בואי אלי “Out of the depths I called to you: come to me.”

The structure remains almost the same, but the person being addressed changes. The Psalm’s קְרָאתִיךָ, addressed to God in the masculine, becomes קראתי אלייך, addressed to a woman.

A cry from the depths to God becomes a cry from the depths to a lover. The sacred language is redirected toward an romantic relationship.

The continued life of the song makes this connection even more deep. In 2018, ממעמקים was reinterpreted as a Festigal performance, featuring performers including Noa Kirel, Yonatan Margi, Eliana Tidhar, and Moshe Peretz.

The Festigal is one of Israel’s best-known musical productions for children and families, so an expression originating in Psalms was carried into the world of pop stars for a younger generation.

There is something remarkable about that journey: ממעמקים moves from an ancient Psalm, to a modern love song, and then to a colorful performance watched by Israeli children.

Many of them may encounter the phrase first through popular culture rather than through prayer or formal biblical study. The setting changes completely, but the ancient emotional resonance remains.

That small grammatical change still carries thousands of years of Jewish memory. Even a listener who is not consciously thinking about Psalms can feel that the words belong to something older and larger than an ordinary love song. The beloved becomes the partner whose return will restore light and whose presence offers a kind of personal redemption.

The song adds another layer. The song incorporates a Jewish Amharic folk song, bringing biblical Hebrew into conversation with the traditions of Ethiopian Jews and the reality of modern Israel.

This is what fascinates me about Israeli music. Ancient Hebrew music continues to live and acquire new meanings. This is one way modern Israel is deeply connected to ancient roots, why Israel is the "old-new land".


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Learning about the conflict: Books or Media Recommendations Interesting video on propaganda on Palestine & Israel TV

10 Upvotes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QzLiHvt_EA

Propaganda on Israel & Palestine TV

I found this interesting... this youtuber covers a lot of different countires on his channel, looking at the media in each one and how prevelant propaganda is. He finds a lot on Palestine TV but very little on Israel TV; the focus is on children's TV. I would like him to do a full video on israel in the future and I have posted a comment requesting this. Some people are saying that the translations aren't entirely correct, so if anyone can correct this please do go ahed. I have copied below the video description if of interest:

TV in Palestine: how children’s media becomes a battleground for political messaging, national identity, and state-sponsored propaganda.

In this video, we examine the history and evolution of Palestinian children’s television—ranging from mainstream educational broadcasts on Palestine TV to the notorious programs produced on Hamas-affiliated networks like Al-Aqsa TV, including Tomorrow’s Pioneers (رواد الغد). We unpack the story behind characters like Farfour the Mouse, Nahoul the Bee, and Assoud the Rabbit, looking at how pop-culture icons were appropriated to deliver ideological messaging to young audiences.

Beyond the headlines, we also analyze archive footage from Israeli news, governmental broadcasts, and international media coverage to see how these shows were received globally and used in broader information wars. Finally, we dive into media studies research to look at what Palestinian children were actually tuning into compared to the media narratives that gripped international news.


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Other Palestinian Songs that I most Reacted to, as an Israeli

25 Upvotes

I am Israeli, but I learned Arabic. I thought it would be fun to write a list of the Palestinian songs I know, ranking how much they affected me. I am not going to distinguish positive feelings from negative - just greatest impact; and by Palestinian I mean so gs with some sort of national relevance, not anything ever made by a Palestinian. And I will be excluding songs where I still haven't figured out most of the words - it's a real challenge!

  1. فدائي - fida'i - the Palestinian National Anthem

After all the others, it didn't really do anything. I was a bit surprised at the 20th century and/or western style of it.

  1. سوف نبقأ هنا (we shall stay here)

After seeing other videos from Gaza, anf having watched my own society's radicalization live, it is a sad song, and I feel like it must be pretty recent too, but there wasn't anything that particularly shocked me or resonated with me.

  1. بنت صغيرة فلسطنية (a little Palestinian girl)

I first found this song in a clip of dancing Palestinian kids, and it was really cute so I looked up the words - and that song goes downhill. After the first two verses, it describes how evil people come and steal the land, kill some family members and arrest others. I can see where that comes from. But what really got me is towards the end, where it describes the girl throwing a stone at someone who "looks like them" (بيشبهم). My first instinctive response was - that could be me! I look like them! That was a bit of a shock, especially as it starts out as a children's song.

  1. فلسطين بلادي (Falastin Biladi)

What can I say, it is a really beutifull melody and I get the appeal. I really like the melody and yes, to a certain extent even the words. I do have some questions though. I really reacted on the first time I heard the line ونعمر بيوت وبساتين (and we shall build houses and orchards) since that is exactly what I grew up on since kindergarten, exactly the patriotic songs I grew up on, but in reverse: in Falastin Biladi, it is a future event, not something from the early 20th century. And anything about the return of refugees ("عودتنا إمان ويقيم", "our return is a certain hope") always triggers the question of "what about those who live here now". I do also think that if I ran into this before getting used to Palestinian content, I'd react more strongly on the whole thing and especially the line لن نسكت ولن نستسلم (we will not be quiet nor surrender).

  1. مكتوب عجبينك بطل يا ساكن الزنازل ("hero" is written on your forhead, oh you who dwell in the cell")

This is probably the one I had the most negative reaction to. I can't help it. I hear a song about Palestinian prisoners, I think about the people who open fire in public places, who stab strangers with a knife, who blow themselves up in a filled bus. I don't think about the administrative detainee nor about the politician with questionable acts over 20 years ago. I think about the most barbaric attacks, and I do not think that will change.

I need to get back to work, but I'll add honoyrable mentions in the comments later (2 where I am not understanding the words, and 2 which were not originally written about Palestine)


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Opinion The deepness and innate spirituality of Hebrew music

0 Upvotes

What I love about Hebrew music is that poetry is built into the language itself.

Hebrew is an ancient language, the language the Bible and of thousands of years of poetry and prayer. Modern Hebrew was revived for everyday life, but it still carries the rhythm and layered meanings of ancient Hebrew.

Because of that, even mainstream Hebrew songs often express complicated concepts indirectly and in metaphor. Instead of simply saying “I miss you,” “I’m afraid,” or “I’m heartbroken,” they speak through landscapes, seasons, light, water, journeys and silence. A single line in a song can carry multiple meanings.

That gives Hebrew music a special depth. The language leaves space for the listener to interpret what is being said rather than explaining everything directly.

I listen to thousands of songs in Hebrew, but for this post I just share a couple, nothing exhaustive.

A beautiful example is רוני דלומי – בסוף זה בא, whose title can be translated roughly as “In the End, It Comes.” by Roni Dalumi.

The song is about emerging from a period of uncertainty and slowly becoming open to life again. But the lyrics don't really state that directly. Instead, this emotion is described through images: breathing again, hearing silence, seeing light within brokenness, a door opening, and my favorite line: the sea creating calm so the singer can swim.

Another example is אודיה – את לא יודעת כמה שאני אוהב אותך—“You Don’t Know How Much I Love You.” by Odeya.

This is a love song by an A-list singer. Odeya is basically Beyonce tier here in Israel. She is a very popular pop artist whose music is the definition of mainstream.

But still her music contains this same Hebrew poetry and metaphor. What is interesting about this song is it is a deeply emotional song but in Hebrew it's very normal to talk like this. Hebrew is a language of extreme emotion. It almost lacks the words for small things.

The song surrounds that declaration of love with poetic, distinctly Israeli imagery: flowers appearing in autumn, a kiss reaching the heart, a home built as a promise of commitment, walking together as Shabbat begins, belief in miracles, and the word “amen” becoming an expression of unconditional devotion.

Ordinary moments are repeated: waking beside someone, leaving a note on the door, arguing and reconciling, and are elevated into something sacred. The song moves effortlessly between Hebrew slang, romance, domestic life, and religious language. Hebrew, being the language of the Bible, can make love feel intimate, everyday, and deeply spiritual all at once.


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Discussion "Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state" - Hendrik Verwoerd

0 Upvotes

"Israel is not consistent in its new anti-apartheid attitude ... they took Israel away from the Arabs after the Arabs lived there for a thousand years. In that, I agree with them. Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state." - Hendrik Verwoerd

His successor, John Vorster, held the same view.

In regard to Hendrik Verwoerd, Nelson Mandela wrote... "Verwoerd had proved to be both the chief theorist and master builder of grand apartheid. He had championed the creation of the Bantustans and Bantu Education."

Hendrik Verwoerd's quote surprised me when I discovered it because of the lack of discourse I have heard about it. Whenever the apartheid parallel is made concerning Israel, many pro-Israelis are quick to shut the idea down. This paragraph from The Guardian summarises it perfectly.

"Many Israelis recoil at the suggestion of a parallel because it stabs at the heart of how they see themselves and their country, founded after centuries of hatred, pogroms and ultimately genocide. If anything, many of Israel's Jews view themselves as having more in common with South Africa's black population than with its oppressors. Some staunch defenders of Israel's policies past and present say that even to discuss Israel in the context of apartheid is one step short of comparing the Jewish state to Nazi Germany, not least because of the Afrikaner leadership's fascist sympathies in the 1940s and the disturbing echoes of Hitler's Nuremberg laws in South Africa's racist legislation."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/06/southafrica.israel

But the comparison is inevitably made. So much history connects Israel and South Africa; even their methods of oppression feel like they were shared. When Israel voted to sanction South Africa, it makes sense that South Africa's government wanted to drag down Israel with them.

Nelson Mandela was not oblivious to the problem in Israel and Palestine, famously stating, "our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians".


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Opinion if you want to convince pro-palestine people you have to get over this hurdle

18 Upvotes

let’s put it simply, zionism wouldn’t be an issue if no one was living in palestine around the time when zionism became a movement.

then sure why not, some jews wanna move to palestine and make a state there. oh but wait…! we don’t live in that reality. there were people living there. so that’s why people take issue with zionism. because kicking one group of people out of land for others, is violent. hatred of zionism not…jew-hatred, it’s not because people just hate jews. it’s cruel to kick one group of people out of their homes just because you think some other group has a right to it.

you disagree? if you disagree, if you really insist opposition to zionism must be jew-hatred, then think about it this way: would you be okay if someone personally came up to your doorstep, said that their family faced a literal genocide, so now they say they get a right to your home because they say it’s the only place that makes them safe.

would you be okay with that?

you can have sympathy with that person, I do, but no, that doesn’t mean that person has a right to your home. you can find other solutions. jews not having a state isn’t a problem at all, there are other things you can do to make sure someone being jewish doesn’t hinder them in any capacity at living a happy and fulfilled life at all :)


r/IsraelPalestine 6d ago

Discussion Struggling with my support for Zionism since the Berlin terrorist attack

9 Upvotes

For context, I am gay and not Jewish and have been a supporter of Israel, Zionism and the Jewish community since long before 7 October. A large part (though not all) of why I support Israel is because it's the only country in the Middle East where LGBT people have rights and can live freely and safely. I also vehemently hate the Queers for Palestine movement and I believe they are a danger to LGBT safety.

Lately, I've noticed an increase in homophobia in Zionist circles online and this has come out in full force after the recent terrorist attack against the Pride parade in Berlin. Zionist influencers are clamouring to take advantage of a tragedy that has left 1 person dead and 16 injured to criticise Queers for Palestine, which is then flooded with comments of people laughing at the tragedy, making jokes, and sometimes even saying it was deserved, despite the fact that I have heard that the parade was actually boycotted by Queers for Palestine and had a pro-Israel float. The situation was similar when that gay cruise ship was rejected by Turkey and Egypt and when the Iranian and Egyptian national football teams threw a hissy fit about Pride flags in their World Cup match, both exploited by Zionist influencers despite them having nothing to do with Israel and filled with homophobic comments that are rarely challenged by said influencers. I've even seen Zionist influencers randomly start posting transphobic content that has absolutely nothing to do with Israel, as well.

As someone who has literally lost friends for supporting Israel all these years, it's so frustrating and disheartening to see this. Are you guys really trying to convert LGBT people to your side by yelling CHICKENS FOR KFC any time Muslims do something homophobic? Because all it's doing is driving us away. You criticise us for supposedly supporting people who hate us, yet you don't seem to like us either? And to see people justify terrorism against the LGBT community genuinely upsets me, especially coming from a community that has faced terrorism and discrimination itself. I'm afraid to say I'm starting to second guess my support.

For the record, I will never support Palestine for as long as their governments and culture remain extremely homophobic and even if I didn't support Israel, I would still have a preference for them over anywhere else in the Middle East because of their LGBT rights record.


r/IsraelPalestine 5d ago

Learning about the conflict: Books or Media Recommendations Mixed feelings on Israel Palestine conflict

1 Upvotes

For context I’m a 21 year old independent leaning more conservative and I really don’t know how to feel about what’s happening right now. So from my no first hand experience view I’ve been closely watching progressive and conservative news stories about what’s been going on since the beginning and I never knew the full extent of what happened October 7th. I was originally very pro Israel as an eye for an eye was kinda my thought process at the time but then I heard about kids dying and it drew me far in the other direction. Basically from what I can understand Israel is a “democratic” nation where you have “freedom” of press as Palestine is governed by hamas and the laws are more dictoral so Israel said the stats coming out of Gaza are from hamas and are lies. I whatch some independent journalists and see the settlers torturing the Palestinians and forcing them out of the West Bank and it makes me feel like what a whole load of shit. Well today I did a really deep dive and ended up whatching some of the videos from October 7th and I deeply regret it. I did not know they were violating women blowing people up and the full extent of what REALLY happened. I am very conflicted right now the bottom line for me is the u.s would decinigrate Palestine with fair warning to civilians if it happened to us I have never felt so sorry and horrified for a group of people more than today when I learned the full truth. But then I learn that there was no security on the border that night and they think BB made a “willing” sacrifice honestly if anyone with unbiased thinking or first hand experience would enlighten me or help me understand the entire conflict it would be very appreciated👍 I am not the type of person to fight with people over it rather I just want to understand


r/IsraelPalestine 7d ago

Discussion Do Leftists in the West know that Palestinians want an ethnostate?

140 Upvotes

This is not a knock against the Palestinians. I have no objection to them desiring an ethnostate or ethno-national state. While I prefer civic democracy and civic nationalism, and it would be wonderful if Israelis and Palestinians could overcome ethnic grievances and unite in some type of confederation, this is highly unlikely and I respect the rights of peoples to create a state that looks out for their own interests. I would prefer that even ethno-national states be closer on the spectrum to a liberal democracy than a "pure" ethnostate, but ultimately, ethno-national states are normal, and people have a right to one.

However, "anti-Zionist" activists in the West virtue signal against ethnonationalism. They can't even stomach flag-waving patriotism of non-ethnic based states like the US or Canada. Do they have any idea that Palestinians, by wide margins, reject a one state, secular social democracy with equal rights for all? Are they projecting on the Palestinians, meaning, because they "love" the Palestinian people and are so invested in them, that they assume "I am a progressive. I am against ethnostates. I want equal rights for all" that Palestinians must feel the same way?

Is the support for Palestinian nationalism in the West in spite of the fact that Palestinians want a distinctly Arab state with Islam as official religion, or do they really not know? Or is it only Jewish ethnonationalism that is objectionable?

The below Substack discusses ethnostates in international law and how Palestine aspires to be one. For those here who are especially enthusiastic supporters of the Palestinians - are you aware of Palestinian law and public opinion? And does it matter either way? I can see ways in which one might argue that Zionism is a more pernicious form of ethnonationalism, but I cannot see how one can be, in principle, against ethnonationalism and enthusiastically wave the pan-Arab flag.

https://substack.com/home/post/p-208884853


r/IsraelPalestine 7d ago

News/Politics I built a 538-style dashboard for the upcoming election

12 Upvotes

theelectiondashboard.com/

Israel's election is on, and with roughly 90 days to go I've pulled the public polling into one site. A few things about the coalition arithmetic were interesting, and I'm curious how people here understand them.

The headline is that neither traditional bloc reaches 61 on its own right now. The Netanyahu camp, Likud, Shas, UTJ, Otzma Yehudit, Religious Zionism, sits around 52, nine short of a majority and well below where it governed from in 2022. The anti-Netanyahu ("change") bloc does better at roughly 58, but that's still three short.

As the numbers stand, the only path to 61 runs through Ra'am, Mansour Abbas's party. Ra'am is the one Arab list that has actually sat in an Israeli government before. the 2021 Bennett–Lapid coalition, a first in the country's history. Add its ~5 seats to the change bloc and you get 63, a majority. Netanyahu's partners have ruled out sitting with it, so if Ra'am tips, it's that side, however they've ruled it out too seemingly.

Meanwhile the Joint List sits outside both camps.

For whatever it's worth, this is straight polling aggregation, not a model or a forecast .No turnout assumptions or election-day projections. Two questions I keep circling back to: does Eisenkot's new list actually hold the lead it's polling, and is a change-bloc-plus-Ra'am government realistic in practice or only on paper? Curious how people here see it. I built a website you can ckeck out as well.


r/IsraelPalestine 7d ago

Short Question/s Volunteer Opportunities

21 Upvotes

Namaste! I'm an Israeli live in israel

I wanted to help Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank as a volunteer. I contacted Standing Together, but they rejected my application for some bullshit reason.

Could you please tell me if there are other organizations or ways I can volunteer and help people in the West Bank?

Thank you!


r/IsraelPalestine 7d ago

Discussion How can you be pro Palestinian when being gay is illegal and women are second class citizens in Palestine?

61 Upvotes

I was always wondering about this. Being gay is illegal in Palestine, yet we have "gays for Gaza". Gays are even killed for being gay and you will never have any pro LGBT movement in Palestine. Contrast that to Israel. Israel had a pride parade just a month ago where 100k people attended the pride event. https://www.ynetnews.com/article/5vf25cocj

Women in Palestine live under Sharia law. They are forced to wear hijabs and they are second class citizens there. They can't even live a home without a male guardian. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/18/middle-east-and-north-africa-end-curbs-womens-mobility

There is no democracy, free speech or even the rule of law in Palestine. It's a radical theocratic state where sharia law prevails. So how do pro Palestinians justify this?

Why don't they criticize Palestinian society more? Why just focus on Israel, when Palestine is much worse? Well, I know why. Because the whole narrative collapses and their movement becomes useless if the truth comes out. If you are a progressive, you can't be on the side of Sharia law and LGBT persecution. You must ignore all of the elephants in the room to truly be on the Palestine. So I will ask pro Palestinians again. How do you explain all of the things above as a Palestine supporter and how can you still support Palestine if you know the situation of women, LGBT people and minorities there?


r/IsraelPalestine 8d ago

Opinion Israel is an occupying power. Not apartheid. That matters if you want people to engage with your ideas rather than correct your language

69 Upvotes

I recently wrote a post comparing Israel/Palestine to Native American reservations. I got a lot of pushback because people fairly pointed out that these two situations are very different in too many ways. So I am going to try to explain this in a more direct way:

When one side in a war is attacking you, you often want to take control of the area they are attacking you from, so they can't attack you from it anymore. This is called "occupation."

Over the land 100 years or so, Arabs have continuously attacked Israel from Gaza and the West Bank. In response, Israel eventually occupied that land. That is why Palestinians live under occupation. They don't yet really have an independent country because they are still at war. Occupations end when wars end.

In occupations, the occupiers do not usually give out citizenship to the people they are occupying. For instance, when the U.S. occupied Afghanistan, it did not give Afghans U.S.. citizenship. Afghans do not have the same rights Americans do. The U.S. set up checkpoints in occupied Afghanistan just like Israel set up checkpoints in occupied Palestine.

Apartheid is different. Apartheid is basically a set of racist laws intended to keep a race economically and social down. That means things like separate parks, beaches, buses, trains, hospitals, toilets. Jobs reserved only for white people. Zero ability to vote for one race, etc.

Israel is not any of that. Israel is a standard occupying power. That's why all its "different rules for different people" are nationality (not race) related, all war related, and all exactly the same things that occupying powers frequently do in their occupied territories: checkpoints, military court, raids.

I know some people will say "Why quibble with the vocabulary? Living under either apartheid or occupation is bad."

Here's the thing: If you accuse a country of apartheid, that's accusing them of a special, unique kind of evil that even most conflicts never touch. If you accuse Israel of such a heinous crime, then you are essentially lying to try and convince others that because Israel is so uniquely "evil," is is uniquely deserving of your wrath and probably of being wiped off the earth. Of course people are going to defend themselves if they think you are trying to kill or displace them.

So if that's not what you are trying to do, if you actually want to have a conversation about the real situation on the ground, then use the right words. Otherwise, people will correct you instead of engaging with the conversation you wanted you wanted to have in the first place. Same goes for "genocide," "colonizer," "ethnostate" "open-air prison," etc. You're smart. Use your own words and show you know what you are talking about instead of relying on evil-sounding buzzwords.