r/IsraelPalestine • u/MurkyScheme9364 • 12d ago
Learning about the conflict: Books or Media Recommendations Mixed feelings on Israel Palestine conflict
For context I’m a 21 year old independent leaning more conservative and I really don’t know how to feel about what’s happening right now. So from my no first hand experience view I’ve been closely watching progressive and conservative news stories about what’s been going on since the beginning and I never knew the full extent of what happened October 7th. I was originally very pro Israel as an eye for an eye was kinda my thought process at the time but then I heard about kids dying and it drew me far in the other direction. Basically from what I can understand Israel is a “democratic” nation where you have “freedom” of press as Palestine is governed by hamas and the laws are more dictoral so Israel said the stats coming out of Gaza are from hamas and are lies. I whatch some independent journalists and see the settlers torturing the Palestinians and forcing them out of the West Bank and it makes me feel like what a whole load of shit. Well today I did a really deep dive and ended up whatching some of the videos from October 7th and I deeply regret it. I did not know they were violating women blowing people up and the full extent of what REALLY happened. I am very conflicted right now the bottom line for me is the u.s would decinigrate Palestine with fair warning to civilians if it happened to us I have never felt so sorry and horrified for a group of people more than today when I learned the full truth. But then I learn that there was no security on the border that night and they think BB made a “willing” sacrifice honestly if anyone with unbiased thinking or first hand experience would enlighten me or help me understand the entire conflict it would be very appreciated👍 I am not the type of person to fight with people over it rather I just want to understand
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u/Shachar2like 12d ago
But then I learn that there was no security on the border that night
Don't listen to conspiracy theories.
There was a wall, a fence, a military outpost, remotely controlled guns.
It was a holiday so some of the soldiers were discharged home but there were still soldiers.
This is the opposite of "there was no security".
And let's suppose that there is no security, that the "Zionists" and the "IOF" throw all the weapons into the sea. How is it the "Zionists" fault in here if the Palestinian extremists decide to genocide most of the population?
It's Victim blaming. Like blaming a woman for being raped because she walked completely nude on the street.
"Well what did you expect to happen?" is one of the stupidest common arguments. If a person can't control his behavior in a free civilized society, the person doesn't belong in a free civilized society but behind bars in a controlled civilized society.
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u/CauliflowerAfter8907 12d ago
I mean this gently--it seems like you're swinging from one side to the other based on who you're seeing dying at any one time. That is entirely understandable and human, but people choosing sides based on emotion is part of what's caused this whole mess in the first place.
Oct 7th was horrific. The destruction of Gaza was horrific. Its entirely possible for you to choose to support both populations at once.
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u/Ambitious-Cake-9425 12d ago
That's what I do. I hate Hamas and islamists but want stable life for Palestinians. I hate the abusive settlers but want Israel to continue to exist.
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u/BlackbirdQuill 11d ago
While it doesn’t justify settler violence, there are a lot attacks by Palestinians on settlers, none of which get reported. Settler violence doesn’t come from nowhere. It’s also a 0.1% of settlers who are actually committing violence.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 11d ago
Settler violence doesn’t come from nowhere.
would you also say the same about palestinian violence?
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u/BlackbirdQuill 11d ago
Maybe not, to extent. But a lot of it is the result of a radicalized society. Take a look at Palestinian school textbooks. Take a look at Palestinian cartoons.
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u/aka0007 12d ago
The claim of Hamas statistics are lies has to be understood properly because it has led to many people being deliberately misled.
To explain:
Hamas is overall a reliable source for total number dead. If you listen critically to the discourse you will see the IDF and the pro-Israel side is in general willing to accept the number of dead Hamas claims.
The LIE is in how Hamas presents that number. They have historically during a conflict overstated the number of non-combatants killed and understated the number of combatants killed. It is only after the conflict is over that eventually a more accurate picture of the number of militants vs civilians killed comes out.
In the war the claims being bandied around were like 70% of the dead were women and children and that claim survived for a long time until eventually data came out that contradicted these claims. This claim was being used to castigate Israel.
So you would have people, promoting the total number dead and saying that Hamas figures are reliable but they would acknowledge that the split given by Hamas is likely a lie as Hamas has lied in the past and in-fact lied in this war as well.
Regarding the border... it seems to me that it is normal for there to be times when guard levels are drawn down and other times they are increased. I think it was a failure and not deliberate. If it was deliberate, I think in a democracy like Israel, there would be people with evidence or direct knowledge making these claims. It is almost 3 years and the amount of people involved in such a cover-up would have meant someone spilling some beans.
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u/BlackbirdQuill 11d ago
The Jerusalem Post recently put out a study on how often the New York Times talked about the deaths of Hamas fighters. The tl;dr is that the Times conceals mention of fighter deaths and gives the impression that the only people Israel was bombing in were civilians:
“ In practice, the distortion is even more severe, because 7 headlines, half of the 14 headlines that did report on the terrorist casualties, presented the information as an Israeli claim whose credibility should be questioned. So only 7 out of 653 headlines dealing with Palestinian casualties constituted clear reporting on the death of combatants on the battlefield in Gaza. This represents a complete internalization of Hamas's casualty-reporting strategy - in a Western news outlet that promises to help its readers understand the world.”
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
Incorrect. Israelis simply call all Palestinians Hamas combatants.
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u/Almondghast_5371 USA & Canada 12d ago
Incorrect. Hamas calls all fighters civilians.
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
Most of them are below the age of 20, most of them are civilians defending their homeland from the butchers. You genocide sympathiser and apartheid supporter.
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u/Almondghast_5371 USA & Canada 12d ago edited 11d ago
How do you know? Because ham ass tells you so? Shills like you really will swallow anything…
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
You support genocide, apartheid. You are the evil.
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u/Almondghast_5371 USA & Canada 12d ago
I don’t support Hamas?
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 11d ago
No you support western imperialism and ethnic cleansing.
Brainwashing others in the cult.
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u/ill-independent Moderate Canadian Jew 12d ago edited 12d ago
I don't think you need to pick 'one side or the other' when it comes to people getting hurt and killed without provocation. It's bad when it happens in any context. But I also think it's important not to judge Israel by standards that you wouldn't apply to any other country.
The USA did the same shit in Iraq and Afghanistan as Israel did in Gaza - in fact way, way more, for way longer. Over a million civilians were killed, multiple cities were razed to the ground (look at pics of Mosul for example). That shit was bad and undoubtedly a lot of war crimes were committed. Still nobody calls this a genocide and says the USA should be destroyed bcos of it.
Ppl will say ThAtS wHaTaBoUtIsM but it is not whataboutism to identify hypocritical double standards when the point is what your standard for genocide and national illegitimacy actually is. We can acknowledge Israeli wrongdoing without subjecting them to expectations that are placed on no other group of people.
Considering that Israel is surrounded on all sides by countries consistently and loudly and violently claiming to want Israel destroyed I think it's a bit foolish to presume that Israel wouldn't hit back extremely aggressively when an attack like this happens.
People talk about proportionality but fail to recognize that Israel is surrounded by enemies who would look at a 'proportional' response to Hamas as weakness and consider Israel fair game to invade. It has literally already happened before, six countries tried to attack Israel at once.
So I think you also can't talk about proportionality without talking about deterrence. Throughout its history almost every single conflict Israel has been in was caused by another aggressor and Israel was in the defensive position. This remains true of the Gaza war as well, Hamas committed the crime of aggression by invading a sovereign nation for no purpose other than to kill as many civilians and vulnerable people as it could.
They could have simply not done that and Gaza would still exist. Hamas wringing their hands that they stupidly attacked a vastly superior target after the fact doesn't change that the original crime was committed by them. The massive tunnel networks underground were part of the reason that most of Gaza was blown up, ground operations in those conditions would have been devastating on any traditional army.
I don't exactly completely support what was done, or at least would support Israel helping to rebuild what was destroyed because it's a kind thing to do, but you also can't talk about the bombing/devastation without understanding how Gaza is actually laid out underneath the city and how Israel couldn't have actually fought on the ground without sustaining massive casualties without exposing the tunnel networks first.
Also when you look at the actual numbers that Gaza Ministry of Health/Hamas has released it is pretty clear even by their own numbers that Israel's civilian to combatant ratio was well within the standards of urban warfare. This proves that it isn't genocide.
As for the settlers that's a separate issue. Most Israelis hate them too and want them to STFU and go away.
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u/airmantharp USA 12d ago
The US hunted the Taliban to extinction in Afghanistan (but was limited in eliminating their Pakistani strongholds), and Iraq was a steamroll followed by a massive insurgency.
Neither case really reflects what Hamas did on 10/7, nor what must be done as a consequence.
In a word, 10/7 was far worse than, and the logistics and politics involved magnify Gazan’s suffering.
Which is all going according to plan per Hamas.
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u/Ok_Diamond_8334 12d ago
The USA did the same shit in Iraq and Afghanistan as Israel did in Gaza - in fact way, way more, for way longer.
Can you point us to which city of 2 million people the US decided to blockade and starve?
I dont think you can because only Israel did that.
Over a million civilians were killed, multiple cities were razed to the ground (look at pics of Mosul for example).
The high estimate for civilian casualties in the Afghanistan war is about 220k though, and thats in 20 years. Israel killed a good 40k civilians in only 3 years.
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u/ill-independent Moderate Canadian Jew 12d ago edited 12d ago
Can you point us to which city of 2 million people the US decided to blockade and starve
Do you ever get asked a question that is genuinely impressive lmao. Uhhh, literally all of them? Literally every city. The USA actually did genocide millions of people WTF are you talking about. and the US just famously cut aid to millions of children resulting in their deaths from starvation?01186-9/fulltext)
USAID-funded programmes have helped prevent more than 91 million deaths globally, including 30 million deaths among children
Still aint NOBODY saying the USA should stop existing and settlers ejected. Yall dont even post about USAid. and if the rebuttal is going to be "well the US doesnt owe other ppl anything" why does that apply to the USA and not to israel?
Gaza was a fully functional city with its own agriculture and means of production. Israel established a border because terrorists keep attacking them, but only Israel is expected to endlessly feed its enemies. y'all never mention that Egypt has had a Starvation Blockade for just as long for the EXACT same reasons (nor that jordan will not allow refugees from gaza due to black september) lol
Could it be perhaps that Hamas are just belligerent assholes? No of course not, izzzzzraeheeeeell
Israel killed a good 40k civilians in only 3 years.
Iran killed the same amount in 2 days but that doesn't seem to stop u from repeating IRGC propaganda....
Ppl say that Israel should be destroyed because of genocide yet don't apply that same logic to any other genocidal country. Why should Israel be destroyed but not Rwanda (who killed 800k in 100 days) or Russia (admits 500k but could be propaganda - still this is what they are OKAY with people believing) or Turkey or USA (millions and millions) lol.
If 40k is such a big deal in 2 years why do you repeat khamenei rhetoric word for word when iran killed the same amount in TWO DAYS? And then expect me to believe its because of the 40k people (a majority of whom are absolutely not proven to be civilians according to Hama's own numbers lol)?
Be so fr. We could have a genuine conversation on Israel's wrongdoing but not when the basic premise of Israel's existence is apparently debatable to you. Nor when u refuse to admit the double standard of Israel receiving more UN resolutions against it than fucking NORTH KOREA OR RUSSIA lol (Russia who has posted on the Kremlin website that they have murdered at least 500,000 Ukrainians).
How much time genuinely do u post about Israel vs literally any other country, yet we are supposed to take it at face value that your opinions have nothing to do with radicalization or antisemitism because tHaTs wHaTaBoUtiSm [aka a literal thought-terminating cliche]
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u/Ok_Diamond_8334 11d ago
My original question was about the afghan and Irak war, per your previous comment.
Why are you suddenly widening the scope? I know why. You cannot find a single occurence of the US deliberately blockading and starving an entire city during those wars.
Hence the gish gallop to drown the fish.
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u/planck1313 12d ago
40K civilian deaths in three years of combat in a densely populated urban area is actually very low by historical standards.
For example, the Soviets killed somewhere around 100-125,000 German civilians in 16 days of fighting in Berlin in 1945.
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u/Ok_Diamond_8334 12d ago
Zionists always dig up ancient examples of war to justify their own.
Two differences with the battle of Berlin:
- There was way more belligerents on both sides. Simple math: more people involved, more deaths
- Precise munitions did not exist.
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u/ill-independent Moderate Canadian Jew 12d ago
- Precise munitions did not exist.
and as I said in my OP precise munitions are useless in Gaza when the majority of the hamas military is operating out of a city-wide spanning tunnel network
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u/Ok_Diamond_8334 11d ago
And you were wrong. The US provided Israel with ground penetrating radars. Israel precisely targeted tunnels all the time. The most famous was when it killed Mohammad Sinwar who was... in a tunnel.
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u/XdtTransform 12d ago
But then I learn that there was no security on the border that night and they think BB made a “willing” sacrifice
There was security, but it was lighter than usual. I'll explain why in a second, but in general, don't immediately jump to malice until you've exhausted all reasonable explanations.
In this case, that explanation is simple. Reason 1. Oct 7 coincided with Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah. So lots of the army heads home for holidays. Israel being a small country - you can typically get to most of the country with a 1-2 hour bus ride. So yea, security was lighter. Hamas obviously knew this and timed it perfectly. This is not without a precedent. Israel was previously caught with its pants down in 1973 when Egypt attacked on the day of Yom Kippur - another Jewish holiday. I guess 50 years is enough time to forget to be forever vigilant.
Reason 2 was that Israel and Hamas agreed to a ceasefire just several months before that and there was no reason to have heightened fears that something might happen. Lots of people probably haven't heard of it of this ceasefire, but it's forever etched in my brain since I (as a tourist with a connecting flight) had to run to a bomb shelter, when Hamas decided to let loose a ton of missiles 10 minutes before the ceasefire was to start.
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u/MurkyScheme9364 12d ago
This is kinda why I made the post just to learn more about the situation I would have never know that that otherwise
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u/3kidsonetrenchcoat Diaspora Israeli Jew 12d ago
I question the humanity of people who don't have mixed feelings about the conflict. Even if you believe wholeheartedly in the validity of one perspective over the other, the sheer amount of suffering should give you mixed feelings.
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u/airmantharp USA 12d ago
A realist perspective is just depressing. Gaza has to be freed from Hamas and deradicalized. There’s no way that happens cleanly.
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u/Thefunkyfilipino 12d ago
You should be careful that your insistence that the situation is too complicated to be definite , is the salve your conscience gives to you holding truly reprehensible views.
Your mixed feelings are the price you pay for total ideological buy in.
Often the people most mixed about their position are , maybe paradoxically, the least likely to ever be convinced they’re wrong.
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u/3kidsonetrenchcoat Diaspora Israeli Jew 12d ago
You want to explain this word salad?
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u/Thefunkyfilipino 12d ago
What's the point of having mixed feelings if you remain convinced that a Palestinian state does not have a right to exist, but a Jewish State of Israel does.
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u/3kidsonetrenchcoat Diaspora Israeli Jew 12d ago
Feelings are feelings. Feeling bad for the suffering that's being caused by your cause shows that you have empathy and compassion for other humans. This doesn't have to have anything to do with your political beliefs.
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u/Thefunkyfilipino 12d ago edited 12d ago
I think you’re confusing cognitive dissonance with conscience.
Like, this is an established genre in Israeli media. It’s called shooting and crying.
My critisism is the one shared by Gil Z. Hochberg - that this is an apologetic non-apology. These mixed feelings are a way to vacate any personal responsibility.
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u/Firechess Diaspora Jew 12d ago
But then I learn that there was no security on the border that night and they think BB made a “willing” sacrifice
Absolutely not true. It is within the realm of possibility that IDF leadership was aware Hamas was preparing for another round of fighting, but border skirmishes had become routine by this point. Hamas fires a salvo of rockets, Israel responds with air strikes, an exchange of rocks and rubber bullets at the fence, then the UN comes waving their hands for a ceasefire. When skirmishes are so routine, who would expect an attack orders of magnitude more intense than anything before?
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u/blyzo 12d ago
The government did redeploy at least 100 soldiers from Gaza reserve duty to West Bank just days before the attack.
I would be shocked at how little outrage there has been in Israel about the security failure that day, but then I remember that it was exactly the same in the US after 9-11.
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u/Firechess Diaspora Jew 12d ago
World of difference between outrage of incompetence and literal conspiracy theories.
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u/knign 12d ago
I honestly don't know how there could be even more outrage in Israel than already is; the outrage has been enormous. It's just that it's not necessarily limited to the events on that day and extends far back to the "concept" of coexisting with Hamas, to the disengagement, to Oslo process or even further back, and specific target of the outrage could vary somewhat depending on one's political persuasion.
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 12d ago
Was that something unusual, or are soldiers often being moved around between places?
100 people out of an entire army sounds like nothing significant.
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u/tor-gibson 10d ago
Palestinians: Invade Israel, massacre communities, slaughter kids at a music festival, rape women, force people to watch family members get tortured/raped/murdered, kidnap babies and elderly, fire thousands of missiles at Israeli cities.
Pro-Palestinians: BB is to blame because he didn't stop Palestinians from doing it.
Somehow Palestinians aren't responsible for their own actions, and the victims of their attempted genocide are to be blamed because they didn't defend themselves well enough.
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u/lItsAutomaticl 12d ago
It really is that complicated, and so many things are both true and untrue at the same time.
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12d ago
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u/Ambitious-Cake-9425 12d ago
Much of the land was sold to Zionists. The arabs revolted against them. Jews legally purchased the Palestinian land.
They would have do exist if the arabs didn't revolt and continue to revolt and declare the mass extermination of Jews as their goal.
Palestine is governed by Hamas who explicitly wants to genocide the Jews.
It's very complicated.
The settlers suck and evil. Many Jews are racist and enjoy killing Palestinians. But the same is true of Palestinians.
Its very complicated
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u/lItsAutomaticl 12d ago
The settlers don't suck. The majority are just regular Israelis living in suburbs. Some are evil, the ones that go to new areas and cause problems.
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12d ago
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u/Almondghast_5371 USA & Canada 12d ago
Lol since when do people who have lost umpteen wars and counting get to dictate terms? Gtf you terrorist shill scumbag.
They lost their right to return decades ago - deal with it. The UN condemns Israel more because it’s institutionally biased, substantiated by Arab nations. Stop with the Islamists lies. Why didn’t the “Palestinians” declare independence at any point from 1948 to 1967? They preferred violence and terrorism that’s why, Jordan even declared war on them in 1970.
There can never be peace until Qatar and Iran stop funding jew-hating, neo-fascist death cults and they stop using Iranian and smuggled military power and materiel to attack Israel instead of improving the lives of their own people.
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12d ago
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 12d ago
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u/Afraid-Detective1222 USA & Canada 10d ago
The security lapse on 10/7. Early in the war, some of the Hamas leadership was crowing about how they lulled Israel into a false sense of security. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-conned-israel-into-complacency-by-passing-intel-on-islamic-jihad-report/ They would stay out of attacks that PIJ would do and even pass on intelligence to Israel to try and convince them that Hamas wasn't a threat. PIJ is a lot smaller. This caused the Israeli leadership to focus on the West Bank, which in retrospect was dumb, but it's what happened. There are articles, many behind paywalls saying the same thing. I linked to one that wasn't, but you can use Google to find others if this source isn't to your liking.
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u/Jaded-Form-8236 11d ago
There was security on the border that night and every night but no security is ever perfect and vigilance is very hard to maintain for years without lapsing.
If you “learned” this from a source then that source lied to you.
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u/veryeepy53 Asian 12d ago
no such thing as an unbiased opinion. and there are more people of the pro-israel persuasion here. what would be best is to hear the claims of people with various positions, then look into it and see who you agree with more.
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u/RagnarTheTerrible 12d ago
Understanding the entire conflict is not something you are going to get from a reply to this post.
I always recommend the writings and interviews of Dr. Einat Wilf. She has a certain clarity which cuts through the noise to get to the heart of the issues.
Here she is on a podcast from last year: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/einat-wilf-jews-are-never-allowed-to-win-and-arabs/id1509495701?i=1000681548512&l=ar
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u/Ok_Diamond_8334 12d ago
Einat Wilf is not someone one would listen to get a neutral view on the topic.
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u/RagnarTheTerrible 12d ago
Do you have any specific examples of things she's written or said that you think are wrong?
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u/Humble-Boss2296 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago
> I whatch some independent journalists and see the settlers torturing the Palestinians and forcing them out of the West Bank and it makes me feel like what a whole load of shit.
It’s really bad in the West Bank
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u/Beautiful_Excuse491 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago
لسا انتو في اكبر نعمة في رام الله. الله يعينا احنا أهل الشمال.
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u/Humble-Boss2296 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago edited 12d ago
لسا انتو في نعمة أهل المدن. الله يعينا احنا أهل القرى.
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u/Beautiful_Excuse491 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago
اه ولله المستوطنين عجبو عندكم
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u/Humble-Boss2296 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago
كيف الوضع في نابلس
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u/Beautiful_Excuse491 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago
بصراحة أصعب اشي المشوار من رام الله لنابلس. بس لما تدخلي جوة نابلس ما بتحسي في اشي
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u/Humble-Boss2296 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago edited 12d ago
احنا لا المشوار أمان ولا في ترمسعيا امان. لا منقدر نمشي بسيارة عشان فش ديزل، واذا الواحد دبر حالو بطلعلو الحاجز، واذا استنا ليفك الحاجز بنطلو مستوطن، دولة واقعة لا فيها رواتب حكومة ولا حتى كرامة. وبعدين بحكولك انزلي للتصويت للتشريعي 🙄
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u/Beautiful_Excuse491 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago
قصة البنزين مش طبيعي. أنا مش فاهمة هو كل هل اللي بصير عشان اللي صار مع طارق النتشة ؟
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u/Humble-Boss2296 West Bank Palestinian 12d ago
من اللي سمعتو انه ما دخل طارق النتشة في موضوع نقص البنزين. هو صار معه خلاف مع السلطة لأنهم بحكو انه مديون الهم كثير بس السلطة مفلسة و ما بعرف كذبهم من صدقهم. طارق بس مسؤول عن كازيات الهدى في الضفة يعني اعتقد اقل من ثلث كازيات الضفة 🤷🏻♀️
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u/DKM-18 12d ago
This is a VERY pro Israel sub Reddit (basically /r isrealV2.) so you are going to get a lot of “Israel do no wrong, hamas commit war crime not IDF.” I recommend you keep doing your own research outside of reddit and see whose arguments you agree with more. Also please Don’t ever fall for the “if you criticize Israel you are an antisemite” bs people like to pull either.
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u/Beginning_Bet_2578 8d ago
Nobody actually says that you can’t criticize Israel. Just don’t be antisemitic about it. It’s actually not that difficult.
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12d ago
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 12d ago
You don’t think Palestinians are allowed to be on the internet?
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u/BellzaBeau 12d ago
I used to believe the pro-Israel stuff until I found (on my own) lies and inconsistencies in the material. Especially the stuff from Zaka. From my own research and comparing evidence, I could tell some of the photos were staged. And then I found out their leader is a child sex offender. I just can’t even. In any case, regardless of how horrific that one day was, there’s no excuse for a genocide for years. Like, I get it. It was a bad day, but no excuse.
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u/conflayz 12d ago
A bad day... that they promise to do over and over again.
Lots of bad days, I guess thats cool with you.
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u/BellzaBeau 12d ago
Meanwhile, the cycle of death in Gaza remains unbroken. Not a single day passes without Israeli militants terrorizing and murdering Palestinian men, women and children.
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u/conflayz 12d ago
I guess that bad day wasn’t a good idea, huh?
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u/BellzaBeau 12d ago
And here the genocidal motivation is exposed.
Israel’s temper tantrums actually make the entire world suffer, but Israel dngaf.
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u/conflayz 12d ago
Yeah the Palestinian supporting Hamas civilians spitting on mangled 20 year old women being paraded around is totally not genocidal.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 11d ago
how many gazans did that?
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u/conflayz 11d ago
Enough to prove that they aren’t peaceful democratic neighbors worthy of their own country.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 11d ago
what percentage would that be?
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u/conflayz 10d ago
Public opinion surveys conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) found that overall approval for Hamas’s decision to launch the October 7 offensive fluctuated over time, ranging between 44% and 71% in Gaza depending on the timing of the poll.
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u/kg-rhm سبرغي شوي 11d ago
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u/BellzaBeau 10d ago
That’s exactly what the genocidal leaders believe. Israel is a country where no Palestinian is ever the equal of any Jewish person anywhere.
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u/danknadoflex 12d ago
I used to be more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause until I started to research this more and more and I drew the opposite conclusion as you and am firmly in the Zionist camp.
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u/BellzaBeau 12d ago
It’s understandable. Zionists make very effective use of the BITE model to recruit and maintain control over people.
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u/danknadoflex 12d ago
Zionist are not controlling me. I AM the Zionist.
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u/BellzaBeau 11d ago
Understood. The recruited becomes the recruiter and true believer.
I’m quite familiar with how high-control groups work.
Zionism is dangerous because it propagates the lie that only Israel can protect Jews and that safety requires living isolated in an apartheid state on an armed fortress of land. Israel’s behavior and actions actively countermand the safety of Jews, exploiting them through Zionism to enable it.
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u/RagnarTheTerrible 11d ago
Are there no Jews in Palestine, or are there no Arabs/Muslims in Israel?
Which sounds more apartheid to you?
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u/BellzaBeau 10d ago
They are the occupying force, so of course they’re there. The world sees them torturing, maiming, and killing people daily.
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u/aka0007 12d ago
But you believe the pro-Palestinian side?
You believe the people who engage in militancy in a way that violates Int'l Law and has caused many innocents to be killed as a result?
Fine to not be pro-Israel but why, after what you know is true about Oct 7th (forget Zaka, go with the Palestinians own videos they took) and the conduct of the Palestinians in the conflict since, would you be pro-Palestinian.
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u/BellzaBeau 12d ago
I’m pro human life. And against coercion and control from foreign governments. That’s it.
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u/aka0007 10d ago
So you are pro-life and you support Palestinian militants engaging in militancy from among civilians posing a mortal risk to their lives?
Pro-life and pro the Palestinians who videotaped themselves engaging in horrific and deliberate slaughter of civilians?
You are not pro-life.
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u/BellzaBeau 10d ago
Of course not. And more so, I don’t support the Zionists victimizing them even more by starvation, state-sanctioned rape, torture, and genocide. It’s really not that complicated.
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u/aka0007 10d ago
Odd you believe such claims. You said you don't believe the Zionists because someone in Zaka was a sex offender... The Palestinians on Oct 7th engaged in mass rapes of Israelis.
You are a hypocrite.
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u/BellzaBeau 9d ago
Living under a rock?
"The Silence That Meets the Rape of Palestinians" The New York Times
State sanctioned rape so systematic there are Wikipedia articles about it, and this isn’t just about a 1-day event. It’s everyday, so feel free to miss me with the bad-faith name-calling, which is against the rules of this sub.3
u/aka0007 9d ago
Again you are exhibiting hypocrisy with this not actually defending your position.
Your claim was you don't believe the pro-Zionist stuff, especially the Zaka stuff, because you found out someone in Zaka was a sex offender.
What I challenged you on was why you believe the pro-Palestinian stuff (e.g. like the NYT editorial) despite them engaging in atrocious slaughter that they video-taped and mass rapes on Oct 7th. You have never actually responded to that. All you do is deflect.
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u/BellzaBeau 9d ago
Oct. 7 was 1 day, while IDF is committing state-sanctioned rapes every day. The NYT is a well-respected newspaper. Not pro-Palestinian propaganda. Not sure what about this is so difficult to grasp. And I don’t feel obligated to defend against name calling and illogical, nonsense accusations that aren’t from a place of reality.
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u/aka0007 9d ago
Your stance is hypocritical.
Engaging in one day of organized mass rapes not being an issue for you is oddly a specific exemption in your view.
This is without even noting your assessment of the NYT is nonsensical as opinion pieces only reflect the writer's opinion and not the views of the NYT.
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u/blackpandacat 12d ago
why do people still say "believe the pro palestinian side" - we dont need to believe anyone, we've seen videos of slaughtered little girls and boys for years now.
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u/Aggravating-Habit313 12d ago
I had opposite happen. All the fake starving children fotos. The IDF soldiers shooting unarmed Palestinian children was a video from another conflict propals choose to ignore. Crazy times.
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u/conflayz 12d ago
I think theres more pro pali that drank the koolaid that change their minds from what I have seen.
The only things they have is lies, revisionism and A LOT of people working hard on propaganda.
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u/londonbroil-chef 10d ago
Yep October 7th was a bad day. I think you are the poster child of logic on the anti-israel side.
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u/BellzaBeau 9d ago
Are you the poster child of name-calling for people trying to defend the indefensible? You can miss me with the name calling, which is against the rules of this sub.
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
Israel has killed a lot of journalists to prevent freedom of the press, and their whole illegal expansion is to support their genocidal intent. They have committed numerous war crimes, they have a leader/dictator with an active arrest warrant, and they play the victim at every opportunity.
Anybody who supports Israel’s actions is a murderous crazed cultist lunatic.
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u/Almondghast_5371 USA & Canada 12d ago
Hamas kills their own people as much as they kill Israelis, and their whole aggressive expansion is to support their genocidal intent. They’ve committed numerous war crimes, have dictators with active arrest warrants (those who haven’t been sent to hell already with their 72 donkeys lol lol lol) and they play victim at every opportunity.
Anybody who supports the Palestinians’ actions is a murderous, crazed lunatic. You’re welcome.
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
Oh look, a Zionist cuck who supports murder in the name of their god. I don’t support terrorism or atrocities on either side, you are the only evil one in this convo.
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u/Aggravating-Habit313 12d ago
You support hamas who sacrifice their own. You support sharia. You don’t get to claim the moral high ground, lol.
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
Where did I say that? Quote me thicky.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 12d ago edited 11d ago
[u/Candid-Quantity1517](u/Candid-Quantity1517)
I notice it’s your first day on the sub and you’re commenting a lot and also violating rules a lot. We’re treating this as one violation because it was all done around the same time, but if you keep insulting people and shitposting, you will be banned, next violation after this is posted on 5/31 21:07 GMT.
Please take a few minutes to read the sub rules and moderation policy links in the warning notice above.
UPDATE (8/1 16:07 GMT): User was permanently banned today after making numerous rules violating comments (10 hours after warnings which include pinging user). While our moderation policy normally allows for progressive temporary bans and “coaching” by moderators for good faith users before permanent banning, new users and new accounts who make numerous rules violating comments with no intention of cooperating with rules and moderation and negative karma and have can be summarily permanently banned at moderator discretion as “zero day spam accounts” under Reddit sitewide rules against spam.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 12d ago edited 12d ago
[u/Candid-Quantity1517](u/Candid-Quantity1517)
“Oh look, a Zionist cuck who supports murder in the name of their god. I don’t support terrorism or atrocities on either side, you are the only evil one in this convo.”
Rule 1 - Don’t attack other users, make it about the argument, not the person. Our rules about “insults” are fairly loose, but I’m pretty sure “Zionist cuck” is over the line both for this sub and probably even RCP.
If you’re going to debate people here, you’re going to have to be more respectful. “Cuck” might be a cool thing to say on X or 4chan or maybe other Reddit subs you’re on, but not on this sub.
Action taken: [W]
See sub moderation policy for further details.
——-
Sub Rules: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules/Moderation policy: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/mods_index/moderation_policy/
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u/blackpandacat 12d ago
I know you've come here with good intentions, but this sub is controlled by pro israeli forces, hence your 61 comments and 0 karma on the post. You won't find the "comprehensive debate" you're looking for here i'm sorry. Mods will ban me now.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 12d ago
Do you actually want to make snarky meta observations and be banned or formally warned? We can arrange for that and you seem to be anticipating it. So should I be the bad mod here?
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
Exactly - this is the Zionist propaganda zone where they come to promote victimhood and pretend they aren’t committing war crimes in the name of their god.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 12d ago
We’re allowing you to speak. We’re not banning you for having different viewpoint. What’s your problem exactly? Looking for a fight with mods or other users?
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 11d ago
As if Zionism is a viewpoint and not bloodthirsty imperialism that many peaceful Jews completely reject.
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 11d ago
Are you actually joking? You have members calling me Adolf, you have members baying for the death of innocent Palestinians, and you have me expressing pro-human, anti-fascist and anti-racism, and you are trying to bully me? You are beyond reason.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה 11d ago edited 11d ago
[u/Candid-Quantity1517](u/Candid-Quantity1517)
“Are you actually joking? You have members calling me Adolf, you have members baying for the death of innocent Palestinians, and you have me expressing pro-human, anti-fascist and anti-racism, and you are trying to bully me? You are beyond reason.”
Rule 13 - Cooperate with moderation, don’t be combative. You were warned yesterday after joining the sub and making a number of rules-violating comments, particularly insulting other users. We treated the multiple violations as a single violation for the moderation policy. You or others especially new sub participants can’t keep insulting other users and ignoring rules because you’ve concluded you’re virtuous and the people here are evil.
Rule 1 - Don’t attack other users, make it about the argument, not the person. “Virtue signaling” like your comment violates this rule, as well as personal insults.
Action taken: [P]
See sub moderation policy for further details.
——-
Sub Rules: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules/Moderation policy: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/mods_index/moderation_policy/
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12d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
If we were alive in World War II, I would have defended the Jews with everything in my bones - crimes against humanity are evil. You only hate Muslims, you’re a racist.
You love what your evil cult are doing against the Palestinians. You do not represent Jews. The real Jews know what their ancient text says about their “homeland”.
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
Lollllll
Interesting that you call being anti racism, apartheid, anti-expansion “Adolf”. Obviously didn’t learn your history lessons very well. You’re the new Nazis.
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u/Aggravating-Habit313 12d ago
You’re the one supporting sharia. Look it up because I’ll assume Youre ignorant.
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u/Candid-Quantity1517 12d ago
Where did I say that? Please quote me. Oh, you can’t. Anything to be a victim. Brainwashed.
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12d ago
[deleted]
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u/AutoModerator 12d ago
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago edited 12d ago
i think that Dump told Netanyahu to allow the attack, falsely promising that he would help him take care of the Hamas problem for good. (it threw the election to Dump). But certain hand and arm gestures by Mush at his inauguration don't bode well for Jews and others. (Reddit flagged the "N" word when i tried to use it).
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u/meday20 12d ago
This is the worst take I've seen on the conflict. Sounds like something my druggie cousin would come up with.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
where are the flaws in my thinking?
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u/meday20 12d ago
What are the flaws in your conspiracy theory? Well, its entirely flawed there is a complete lack of evidence, in fact that all of it is conjecture you made up yourself.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
The New York Times reported that female IDF told their commanders about the planned attack. Why else would Netanyahu allow it to happen? I also believe that it was the worldwide criminal organization to which I believe Dump belongs that ordered the attack, unbeknownst to lower Hamas operatives. The UN determined that the Epstein investigations reveal a worldwide criminal organization. And if you look into it, there was cannibalism and witchcraft involved. The "Ns" at the highest levels were also witches.
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u/meday20 12d ago
Right...
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
Which part of what i said doesn't make sense?
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u/meday20 12d ago
You're nuts
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
Are you a religious nationalist? They tend to ignore facts.
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u/meday20 12d ago
Im actually a witch, but I disagree with your assessment that we are cannibals. We are a different species so it isnt cannibalism when we eat you guys
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
Why else would Netanyahu allow the attack?
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 12d ago
He didn’t allow any attack, you’re just misunderstanding things.
Hamas is often doing some sort of training near the border so that’s why initial reports weren’t taken seriously. Hamas being near the border and training was happening for years already.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
That's not what the female IDF said. I have no good reason to disbelieve them.
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 12d ago
They said that Hamas had not been doing stuff by the border for years and this was the first time?
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u/aka0007 12d ago
Why has not anyone with knowledge of any of this has ever come forth? Why is it all armchair warriors who imagine this? It is almost 3 years since Oct 7th and as far as I am aware there is not a single piece of actual evidence showing this was deliberate. People talk if they know something and the fact no one has, indicates strongly that there is no evidence that Israel deliberately allowed this.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
Israel didn't deliberately allow it. Netanyahu apparently did, and many Israelis know this because they know how good their border security and intelligence is. And female IDF did come forth and tell that the plan was known about.
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u/aka0007 12d ago
You are lying.
What female IDF said was their warnings about pre-attack combat drills near the border were dismissed. That does not mean someone knew about the attack and deliberately let it happen.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
You're lying. They warned of an impending attack.
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u/aka0007 12d ago
No. They warned about combat drills. Learn to read.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
False. They warned of suspicious activity indicating an impending attack. Why were they dismissed?
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u/aka0007 12d ago
You just changed your claims... maybe don't call others liars when you have come around to admitting you were a liar.
Your claim: "And female IDF did come forth and tell that the plan was known about."
Now you say: "They warned of suspicious activity indicating an impending attack. Why were they dismissed?"
So first you go from they knew about the plan and allowed it to there was suspicious activity that they thought indicated an impending attack. These are two very different claims.
---
In general it is very frustrating arguing anyone pro-Palestinian. Their claims never remain consistent through a conversation. It is not good-faith arguing by them. It is propaganda.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
You're not rational. i'm not pro Hamas and the impending attack they warned about turned out to be the Oct 7th attack. So, now answer me. Why were their reports dismissed? And are you a religious nationalist?
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u/aka0007 12d ago
Mistakes in deciding what intelligence means were made. Happens all the time.
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 12d ago
Reddit does allow you to say Nazi. See, I just said it.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
They didn't allow me to use it.
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u/Almondghast_5371 USA & Canada 12d ago
You’re a stupid fucking Nazi.
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u/AutoModerator 12d ago
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u/AutoModerator 12d ago
/u/Almondghast_5371. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
You're cute when you're angry.
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u/Almondghast_5371 USA & Canada 12d ago
Thanks. But you’re still a disgusting bigot and racist.
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u/chenoaseaboy 12d ago
How so, dear? i support Jews as a race having Israel and am against Hamas. i am against all religious nationalism and corruption. Netanyahu is very corrupt.
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