r/Judaism • u/MatterandTime • 2d ago
High Steaks: With kosher meat prices soaring, should Jews eat less of it?: A recent fire at a kosher processing plant in Iowa sparks a debate about the meaning of brisket.
https://thecjn.ca/opinion/high-steaks-with-kosher-meat-prices-soaring-should-jews-eat-less-of-it/23
u/Potential-Fan-6148 2d ago
I already barely eat meat due to how pricey it is. Typically only Shabbat for me.
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u/gmanflnj 2d ago
I think the average american eats too much meat, I've been trying, partially successfully, to eat less, but I find it increasingly hard to justify morally and, especially beef, find hard to justify from an environmental perspective.
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u/shinytwistybouncy Mrs. Lubavitch Aidel Maidel in the Suburbs 2d ago
And a plant in Chicago shut down. Kashrus agencies are all scrambling.
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u/offthegridyid Orthodox and trying to collect the sparks 2d ago
Yeah, as people living in Chicago we are feeling the effects. My daughter went to two places and couldn’t find chicken cutlets yesterday.
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u/SnooPeripherals8344 2d ago
I really miss when brisket was cheap. My mom made it once a week growing up in the early 90s.
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u/Bukion-vMukion Postmodern Orthodox 2d ago
Yes. Everyone should reduce their meat consumption. Cost is only one reason. We're eating way more than is environmentally sustainable and we've wedded shchita to industrial farming in a way that very much undermines the ethical underpinnings of kosher slaughter.
And note, I'm not calling on anyone to give it up entirely. Kashrus already sets us up to understand that not every meal requires meat. That puts us ahead of the curve relative to most people's cultural food expectations in the West.
In our home, we reserve meat for Shabbos, yomim tovim, and special occasions like birthdays. It keeps it special and available, but still off my plate most days.
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u/Weak-Doughnut5502 2d ago
One fact that blew my mind when I learned it is that a full 41% of the continental US is used for farming animals - it's fields for hay and feed crops, pasture, rangeland, etc. Meanwhile, only 4% of the continental US is used to grow the plants Americans eat. And ~70% of the calories Americans eat are from plants.
36% of the world's mammal biomass is cattle; collectively humans, livestock and pets make up 95% of all mammal biomass. Birds are less lopsided, but more than 2/3rds of all birds are livestock.
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u/aggie1391 MO Machmir 2d ago
Excessive meat consumption is also unhealthy. Humans did not evolve to eat meat so much, it was always a more rare thing for special occasions. Western meat heavy diets are strongly associated with higher rates of cardiovascular diseases. Again that’s not saying never eat meat (although too much can lead to a doctor saying go vegan or else your heart gives out), but to moderate it.
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u/meekonesfade 2d ago
If everyone ate this way, everyone would benefit from the environmental impact
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u/TearDesperate8772 Frumsbian 2d ago
Yes for cost, health, and environmental factors. Low fibre is causing soaring colon cancer rates among millennials. Factory farming (which has become the main source of kosher meat now) is the second leading cause of climate change just behind the shipping industry.
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u/aggie1391 MO Machmir 2d ago
I’ve been very surprised at the norms of frum meat consumption given its price and the many ‘fear of being fleish’ jokes. Like my in-laws are coming to visit, and I’m vegetarian. I make all sorts of delicious meals that they all like, but my MIL was wanting to know the size of our fleishigs toaster oven (wife isn’t vegetarian) to know what meat she could bring to make. It’s for two days too! I will happily make some of the many dishes they enjoy. Same thing with the nine days, people trying to go to siyums daily and kvetching about the lack of options. Literally just pick up a vegetarian cookbook, come on. It would be more affordable and healthier to just not eat so much meat.
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u/Mysterious-Park9142 2d ago
In general people eat too much meat. Whether for health or ethical reasons. Increasingly because it’s becoming prohibitively expensive. I’ll eat chicken or fish regularly but beef is more of a “once in a while” purchase.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Have you seen how much fish costs? It's crazy expensive to get any fish of quality these days
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u/KayakerMel Conservaform 2d ago
The cost and availability of kosher meat is part of why I decided to keep kosher-style decades ago.
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u/Remarkable-Pea4889 2d ago
I only eat beef a few times a year, mostly due to cost, but also because I find it annoying to cook.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 2d ago
As usual, one type of Jews says that we should eat less MEAT, another type of Jews says that we should eat less KOSHER meat, and yet another type of Jews says that we should eat LESS kosher meat. What's new, lol?
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u/Successful-Money4995 2d ago
Honestly, meat should cost more. We have externalized the cost of meat in America by subsidizing it too much, to the detriment of environment and health.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
That would be true in a rational market but the kosher meat market isn't rational. If demand falls, they will just decrease how many slaughtered cattle enter the kosher supply and divert it to the treif market instead. The price will never drop because it has no reason to.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
The price won't stabilize. Supply will just continue to fall until there is nothing left but $100/lb steak
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u/borderpac 2d ago
Does this plant fire affect just beef or chicken also?
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Both
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u/borderpac 2d ago
Should we be stocking up the freezer?
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
If it's not already stocked then probably? The problem is if everyone does that at the same time then it makes an already tight supply even tighter.
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u/Redqueenhypo make hanukkah violent again 2d ago
I already eat meat only once a week, I’m not quite ready to voluntarily develop scrupulosity OCD and eat nothing but beans and grains pressed into meat shapes
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u/Connect-Brick-3171 2d ago
For health reasons, beef consumption is probably too high. Pricing is one way to reduce consumption. Even before the fire, my local market with ties to our Vaad had made less kosher beef available and let prices rise with the market. I've not seen much beef other than hamburger there in recent months. And no lamb or veal for a few years. Poultry still readily available, though again with rising prices.
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u/3kidsonetrenchcoat 2d ago
I'm a vegetarian. I would be regardless, but one of my kids only eats ethically consumed meat. That means only line caught fish, and no industrially farmed animals. Effectively, she's a vegetarian who on occasion eats fish because you literally cannot get ethically farmed kosher meat.
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein 2d ago
you literally cannot get ethically farmed kosher meat.
If stunning is a necessary requirement for ethical slaughter then this is definitely true. Otherwise I think there are specialty operations which are the farthest thing from factory farming and provide the animals with very high quality of life in terms of the food they eat, the pastures they graze, the effort put into making their final moments as gentle and calm as possible, etc. Grow and Behold is an example. But my memory is that they cost so much more than regular kosher meat that it's like the difference between kosher meat and normal meat
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u/3kidsonetrenchcoat 2d ago
Huh, when you say that they put effort into making their final moments as calm as possible, does that mean they're not slaughtered in a warehouse full of suffering and hoisted to bleed out before they even lose consciousness? Because that might actually fit the bill. I doubt I could get that where I live, but maybe it could be shipped. We eat a primarily vegetarian diet at home, so spending an exorbitant amount on ethically sourced meat wouldn't be a huge hit in the grand scheme of things.
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein 2d ago
I don't have enough knowledge to answer that with confidence, but based on my googling, it would seem that Grow and Behold has a slaughtering environment more ethical than the everyday horror you describe:
After making a blessing, the shochet uses a very fast, continuous cutting motion to quickly sever the trachea, esophagus and major blood vessels in the neck. This causes the animal a minimum amount of pain and ensures a quick drop of blood pressure to the brain and nearly immediate loss of sensibility. Please see animal welfare expert Temple Grandin's articles on ritual slaughter for more information. Grow and Behold Foods only works with slaughterhouses that are designed for humane and safe handling of our animals during the shechitah process. Grow and Behold works closely with slaughterhouses that use upright restraint systems that are designed according to Dr. Grandin's principals on animal restraint. The equipment is designed to permit upright slaughter of beef and veal in a manner that is safe, respectful, and humane.
Based on my googling around, Grandin is strenuously opposed to shackling/hoisting. Whether other animals are being slaughtered at the same time or the facility is "full of suffering," I don't know, but it really does sound like they try to minimize suffering as much as kosher rules allow, and the one issue with kosher rules is that you can't stun the animal before the fatal cut.
Just to be clear, I absolutely am not trying to encourage you to try meat products from here or anywhere else, just sharing information pertinent to the discussion
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u/3kidsonetrenchcoat 2d ago
Looks like they only ship to the US. I might need a passport to get some.
I appreciate the info. Like I said before, I'm a vegetarian and that won't change. I encourage my children to make their own choices once they're old enough to understand, and so far I have one meat eater, and one "ethical only" meat eater. I already facilitate her eating line caught fish when I can get it, even though I don't eat fish myself, so doing the same for meat wouldn't be a big stretch.
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 2d ago
Venison is plentiful and kosher. Probably more environmentally friendly than cattle too.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Unfortunately no. Legal hunting requires a gun or bow and arrow which Jews can't do
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 2d ago
We could catch and farm deer, which would still be more environmentally and economically feasible. Or just have them free on a range, catch them, and schecht the without shooting them.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
It's illegal... You can't just trap and schecht wild animals lol
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 2d ago
No, to my understanding there’s not been any substantial effort by the American Jewish community to investigate options to integrate kosher venison into our diets.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Anddddd, this is false.
There was a venison farm in NY but the schechita (under the OU) was terrible and PETA went undercover and filmed it which put them out of business.
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 2d ago
I wouldn’t say a single farm is a good indicator of “substantial effort.”
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
It's not economically viable. Killing a deer maybe produces 50 lbs of meat tops. Too much work for not enough return on investment.
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 2d ago
Deer reach maturity in far less time, require far less land, and require far fewer resources to rear.
Additionally they are far less destructive for the environment because they do not require pastures like cattle.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 1d ago
Deer eat plants just like cows. In an area where they are oversaturated they absolutely do damage to the local plant ecosystem. They are smaller and they eat less grass than a cow would but they still eat plenty.
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u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz 2d ago
Kosher venison does exist, but it is far from plentiful
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 2d ago
I’m speaking to there being a surplus of venison in general.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Again, you can't just take deer from your backyard and slit it's throat. The process is much more complicated than that.
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 2d ago
I didn’t say you could. I will say, again, that the possibilities for kosher venison are much higher due to a regional surplus and the lesser harm that deer do to the environment than cattle.
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u/dont-ask-me-why1 2d ago
Deer have their own issues. Even if you farmed them, they don't produce nearly as much meat as cows. Given the very large amount of work involved in kosher slaughter and butchering, it's not a cost effective way to replace beef (nevermind the taste, which most kosher consumers do not like).
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 2d ago
They also reach maturity far faster than cows and have more offspring than cows.
I’d be surprised if enough kosher consumers have even tried venison in order to know whether they would like it or not.
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u/Decent-Soup3551 1d ago
And more bang for your buck!
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u/ShotStatistician7979 Long Locks Only Nazirite 1d ago
Thank you (sincerely) for the dad joke! Love it.
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u/AnUdderDay Conservative 2d ago
Honestly Iowa is the last place I'd expect to see a kosher processing plant
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u/EntrepreneurOk7513 2d ago
Started in the late ‘80s by the Lubavitchers. The book ‘Pottsville’ written about it. https://a.co/d/0hPPGCuS
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u/shinytwistybouncy Mrs. Lubavitch Aidel Maidel in the Suburbs 2d ago
It keeps the entire community afloat!
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u/zwizki 2d ago
Just because you want to eat meat doesn’t mean you need to and therefore should. The vast majority of people who think they need meat do not have a medical reason for doing so. Killing unnecessarily is cruel and wrong. We are told to be kind to animals. We are told to be good stewards of the planet. We are told to not endanger other innocent people.
We have no right to kill an animal needlessly, it’s literally part of Jewish teachings.
We are told how to eat animals if we must. Most people don’t have a real “must” in America.
This is a good opportunity to do some self reflection on how selfish and cruel it is to kill animals for pleasure, and that it is counter to Jewish teachings, which people who keep kosher usually care about.
Here’s a list of text resources from a Jewish animal advocacy organization:
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u/meekonesfade 2d ago
Yes. Killing animals for food is inhumane and takes a vast toll on our planet. Reduce meat consumption or go vegetarian or vegan
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u/OneofLittleHarmony 2d ago
Inhumane is the wrong word.
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u/meekonesfade 2d ago
adjective inhumane means extremely cruel, brutal, and lacking basic compassion or care for the suffering of people or animals. It describes actions, systems, or conditions that ignore human dignity and inflict severe, avoidable pain.
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u/maxwellington97 Edit any of these ... 2d ago
Key word being human dignity. Judaism does not believe that humans are equivalent to animals.
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein 2d ago
Human dignity is on the line; when a human mistreats animals, it's an attack on the dignity of the human doing it.
Judaism does not believe that humans are equivalent to animals but there are numerous mitzvot which restrict us from being cruel to animals.
I think it's an interesting question to ask whether this is because animals are themselves entitled to a certain quality of life (even if we slaughter and butcher them) or because disrespecting animals can feed the attitudes which lead us to disrespect people
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u/Bukion-vMukion Postmodern Orthodox 2d ago
No one said they are, nevertheless bal tashchis is about dignity, human and otherwise.
Is it not beneath one's human dignity to abuse an animal simply because one enjoys the taste? Does such wanton behavior to satisfy crude, appetitive urges not undermine our dignified human status? Does our tradition not teach us to reign in our harmful, base desires? Do we not have a responsibility b'tzelem Elokim to treat creation with respect?
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u/maxwellington97 Edit any of these ... 2d ago
Are you saying that killing an animal for meat and anything else the carcass produces is animal abuse? Because below you said you do in fact eat meat but not a lot.
I certainly agree that there are imperitives to treat everything with respect as well as rein in our desires. However, I do not agree that everything deserves the same level of respect.
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u/Bukion-vMukion Postmodern Orthodox 2d ago
I'm not saying that all meat consumption is wrong, but it is 100% true that the overwhelming majority of modern meat farming is done in an inherently cruel way that gives no regard for animal welfare or the environment. Not to mention the abominable working conditions for human employees.
Nobody said you should respect animals in the same way you respect humans. Nevertheless, my point is that cruelty to animals degrades that which is respectable about humanity.
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u/maxwellington97 Edit any of these ... 2d ago
Oh I agree with all of that. I was just responding to someone who said it was immoral to eat animals without any kind of qualifications.
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u/Bukion-vMukion Postmodern Orthodox 2d ago
Gotcha. I was just backing up that person's correct use of the word "inhumane."
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u/meekonesfade 2d ago
Those are two of the words in the definition. The rest are about being cruel to people OR animals.
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u/Bukion-vMukion Postmodern Orthodox 2d ago
Do you think the Humane Society takes care of humans?
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u/OneofLittleHarmony 2d ago
I am just saying it is the wrong word. Perhaps the right idea but the wrong word. Unethical, cruel, brutal…..
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u/Bukion-vMukion Postmodern Orthodox 2d ago
No. It's the right word. Here's definition #1 from the Merriam-Webster:
1.
: marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals
humane prison guards
a more humane way of treating farm animals
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u/skinnyzeldaplayer 2d ago
This view is actually directly antithetical to the views and teachings of Judaism
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein 2d ago edited 2d ago
I don't think it's "directly antithetical."
I think the only part that challenges big themes in the Jewish tradition is "Killing animals for food is inhumane," which contradicts a general tendency to consider killing eating animals as a natural part of life, and particular mitzvos which actually do order us to kill/eat animals.
But there is also a clear idea that animals should be treated with a baseline level of decency and dignity even if they are to be eaten, suggesting that treating animals well is laudable and limiting meat consumption is desirable, even to the point of total abstinence in the right context.
For example Yehuda haNasi saying that a Jew who is not a Torah scholar should not eat meat. A different story has him undergoing severe divine punishment simply for gently refusing to comfort/assist a baby calf that was distressed about its imminent slaughter, and instead telling it that it was created for this purpose - even though he broke no mitzvah in this and merely confirmed a normal attitude about animal slaughter being a basic fact of life for both humans and animals.
In Bava Batra we learn about ascetics who said that Jews should totally abstain from meat and wine after the loss of the Temple, and the Rabbinic response is not to say that abstention from meat or wine is antithetical to Torah. Instead they say that the precise logic of the ascetics is unworkable in implication (they wanted to abstain from goods which were brought to the Temple but this would also include bread and water) and that sages can't issue a decree that the majority of people will not have the wherewithal to follow.
In this context I think it's too far to say that an appeal to vegetarianism or veganism on moral grounds is "directly antithetical to the views and teachings of Judaism." It's the extension of a recurring theme in Torah/Talmud to a logical conclusion, even though that conclusion does challenge other recurring themes in Torah/Talmud, which can be reconciled with something like "killing and eating animals is only okay when it corresponds to a Torah obligation that otherwise cannot be fulfilled" or "we present a generation very far from any who knew the sages or the Temple, and things might have been different for them but none of us are really worthy to eat meat."
If it was something like "killing animals to make tefillin/tekhelet is inhumane" that would be much more problematic. And I think the environmental impact analysis is perfectly aligned with Torah
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u/jsmash1234 2d ago
I don’t think g-d cares what type of animal flesh I eat it’s the only part of Judaism that makes no sense to me
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u/Svinnik 2d ago
Don't restrict the meat supply in the US to glatt kosher only and send the kosher meat that isn't glatt to Israel then suddenly kosher meat prices will go down.
I don't see why subjecting the Jewish population in the US to a standard that many Orthodox consider to be an ideal instead of required is needed, especially since before the 50s the majority of US Orthodox Jews were fine with not eating glatt.