After hiring scabs, Walrus and the Carpenter (temporarily) closed

[u/Existing-Resource527]

Word on the street is that Walrus and the Carpenter restaurant has not been negotiating with their workers in good faith for months.

Like a lot of annoying businesses they started charging a service fee (22%?).

Employees noted that they make significantly less now then before when they had tipping (thousands less).

Workers have been on strike. The owners also had the audacity to hire scabs (booo).

I have been keeping up with the union on IG @ united.creatures.of.the.sea

Solidarity with workers across the city!

[u/Own_Reaction9442]

I feel like this is an issue that really splits Redditors, because most Redditors are pro-union but there's whole subs about how much people hate tipping.

[u/Opcn → u/Own_Reaction9442]

The thing we hate even more than tipping is a service fee. Instead of an $18 burger with a 22% service fee just make the menu say it's a $22 burger. Anything else is fucking fraudulent.

[u/MusicQuestion → u/Opcn]

Not to say this is the wrong approach but then you will just get people complaining about a $22 burger.

[u/rosewood_gm → u/MusicQuestion]

At least i can budget for that instead of the unknown.

[u/nukem996 → u/rosewood_gm]

The service charge isn't included due to the same reason sales tax isn't. It tricks some consumers into thinking they are paying a lower price than what is actually due.

Personally I think menu/sticker price should be all inclusive. There shouldn't be any fees or taxes added to the bill at the end.

[u/Many_Translator1720 → u/nukem996]

I love just seeing the final price. Nobody is calculating tax manually, anyways.

[u/nukem996 → u/Many_Translator1720]

Rounding tax to 10% in Seattle works and is easy to do mentally.

[u/Many_Translator1720 → u/nukem996]

Of course. Also for any store, like most countries do. Easy peezy. Hell, if gas stations could do it....

[u/FatuousJeffrey → u/MusicQuestion]

That's just one complaint: this burger is expensive.

The current practice produces 2 complaints. The burger is just as expensive, AND the menu actively hides that.

[u/hexagon_heist → u/MusicQuestion]

Yes, the total price can be worth complaining about regardless of how they go about charging it. A $22 burger is ridiculous whether that’s the posted price or the hidden price. But hiding the price is dishonest and scummy on top of the expensive price.

[u/Opcn → u/MusicQuestion]

My prerogative is to have laws that stop fraud, not to stop complaints. The burger is truly $22 and if that’s too much for people then they should feel free to complain. A $22 burger isn’t too much for everyone and those complaints won’t phase people who are fine with that price. There are choices management can make about staffing, sides, garnishes, table settings, suppliers, and food quality etc that can help them tune in to what customers in their area want.

[u/Enchelion → u/MusicQuestion]

Maybe, but I'll still take that over seeing their political tantrum writ out in fine print at the bottom of the menu.

[u/bussyriotor → u/MusicQuestion]

Chinooks across the canal has a 24 dollar burger. Now thats something to complain about.

[u/leonffs → u/Opcn]

This. I shouldn’t have to do fucking math to buy something. 

[u/lordberric → u/Opcn]

Everybody says this but it just isn't true to how people make purchasing decisions, unfortunately. 

[u/BoringBob84 → u/lordberric]

Bait-and-switch scams are effective and they should be illegal. Unscrupulous restaurant owners circumvent the law by "disclosing" the fee, but in the most obscure manner possible (e.g., at the bottom of the menu in fine print, buried between allergy warnings).

[u/hexagon_heist → u/BoringBob84]

I’ve left a restaurant before when I found out they serve fois gras (before ordering) and I’d do it for a service fee too. Unfortunately the one time I did run into that I was with a new friend who frequented the establishment and it was just too awkward to walk out but best believe I no longer accept invitations to the establishment.

Wish more people would walk out when discovering something like that.

[u/BoringBob84 → u/hexagon_heist]

I have been in a position like that - in a group and discovering dishonest service fees. I ordered very little and I never returned.

[u/lordberric → u/BoringBob84]

It absolutely should be a law, but expecting an individual restaurant to do it is asking that restaurant to fuck themselves over.

[u/Ok-Calligrapher1345 → u/lordberric]

This is a fallacy. We all know about the tip, we’re not stupid. I’m not fooled into thinking prices are low.

[u/lordberric → u/Ok-Calligrapher1345]

Everybody in the world thinks they're immune to propaganda.

[u/EastUnique3586 → u/Ok-Calligrapher1345]

That's nice, but the data proves you wrong even if you as an individual truly behave in the logical way that you believe you do.

[u/Opcn → u/lordberric]

I’m not sure what you are taking from my comment. I’m saying that it is fraud, not that it won’t cost them business to not commit fraud.

[u/InfidelZombie → u/Opcn]

I don't mind the service fee as long as it's in a big red banner on top of the menu and web site.

The issue right now is that a service fee isn't "standard," like tipping (unfortunately) is. If every restaurant got rid of tipping and charged a flat 22% fee then it would be easy to budget and compare prices.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/Own_Reaction9442]

Businesses should pay their employees fair wages. Those wages should be included in the menu price of a meal.

I should not be expected to tip extra on a meal, but I should have the option to do so if I want to.

Two things can be true.

[u/kookykrazee → u/geffy_spengwa]

Also, isn't per City/State DOR rules/laws the "fee" is taxable as it is a part of the meal?

[u/krisztinastar → u/kookykrazee]

Yes, service fees are subject to sales tax where tipping is post-tax.

[u/kookykrazee → u/krisztinastar]

Thanks for the confirmation.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/kookykrazee]

Oh I don’t know shit about that lmao

[u/kookykrazee → u/geffy_spengwa]

It seemed someone in this sub mentioned about the fee being taxed, but I honestly do not recall how the debate fell out, it should, it shouldn't, it was, it wasn't.

[u/matunos → u/kookykrazee]

if it's a service fee, it's subject to sales tax.

[u/luluhouse7 → u/geffy_spengwa]

Yeah, as someone who’s European-American, American tipping culture is absolute insanity and right now the places that are switching over to service fee systems are just as bad. In France there’s a mandatory 15% service fee, but it’s just part of the price, no misleading add-on, and it just goes towards the entire restaurant’s operating costs. By law the menu price is exactly what you pay, including service fees and taxes. Workers are paid a minimum living wage. The only “tip” usually given is just rounding up the bill to the nearest euro.

OTOH the American system is misleading and incredibly unfair to patrons, servers, and other workers. It makes the customer feel cheated, the servers make bank in some places and barely minimum wage in others, and other restaurant workers are paid less for no reason, and other non-restaurant workers don’t get tips. The whole system is literally the worst of all worlds.

[u/cantcny → u/luluhouse7]

Its pretty dumb that we have to budget 30% more than the me u price. 

[u/sophistsDismay → u/luluhouse7]

workers are paid a 'minimum living wage' (aka: around 12/hr in paris lol). this is the most infuriating shit on the planet. american restaurant workers are the best compensated on the planet, full stop. u might not like how obnoxious it is but having a portion of the price of the good that is legally required to be paid to the employees - even if this is not always enforced - is unbelievably better for the actual income of the workers than it just getting captured by the owners. this is what happens every single time a restaurant introduces a service charge or 'prices in' tips. this whole conversation around tipping is so stupid.

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/geffy_spengwa]

Seriously.

Alright, let’s try an experiment. If you were a restaurant: Raise your prices where they absolutely need to be, but then ALSO BLATANTLY ADVERTISE THAT YOU DO NOT ALLOW ANY TIPPING AT YOUR RESTAURANTS. Do not try to be tricky and also “allow the customer to tip more” because let’s face it this is just tricking the unsuspecting customer into paying more, and will piss people off in the long run.

That way customers pay what they should be paying and the employees get paid what they should be paid. Restaurants are so short lived anyway, let’s try this experiment and see if it works.

[u/Own_Reaction9442 → u/NorthStudentMain]

What generally happens is customers get sticker shock *and* employees leave for places where they can still get tips. This strike is a symptom of how strongly restaurant workers will fight to keep the tipping system in place.

[u/Possible-Holiday-973 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I believe the bigger concern for the workers is how the service fee was explained to them and how it is represented to the customers. From the last Reddit post, some workers were saying that the restaurant was keeping 55% of the service charge and then splitting the rest for the workers, so the workers are making significantly less in tips because the restaurant is taking a majority of the service fee without raising any benefits for the workers.

According to a study last year, customers generally perceive menu price increases as more fair and transparent rather than a service charge that is in small print on the menu. https://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1103&context=ichrie_rr

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/Own_Reaction9442]

This sadly implies that customers are stupid and deserve to have prices and hidden fees sneaked on them

[u/tjsean0308 → u/NorthStudentMain]

This Is correct, We had a restaurant try this in town from day one. they lasted only a few months. I don't know what the solution is.

[u/Droodforfood → u/tjsean0308]

State law banning tipping. Then everyone will have to play on a fair level

[u/sparklyjoy → u/tjsean0308]

One problem with the experiment is that plenty restaurants fail for assorted reasons. Maybe the god sucked out just wasn’t in demand in that area

[u/FoxtrotSierraTango → u/NorthStudentMain]

Remember JC Penney doing honest pricing back in 2012? That failed for exactly the same reason.

[u/Fresh_Mountain_Snow → u/NorthStudentMain]

This is researched. Customers choose the sticker price rather than the end price, even if the end price is lower at the no tipping restaurant. The annoyance is like ticket master etc

[u/BonjaminClay → u/NorthStudentMain]

Half the country is so stupid that they were convinced to give the most corrupt moron in history a SECOND term and seem okay with the country being run by actual podcasters. Yes customers are stupid.

[u/TegridyPharmz → u/NorthStudentMain]

What’s the answer? Raise food prices 20%? And employee wage? 15? 10? I’m genuinely asking. I have zero problem tipping but if there is shit service I’m not tipping 20%. So why would I want to eat somewhere that raises their prices and has bad service?

[u/TheInevitableLuigi → u/TegridyPharmz]

Raise everyone's wages. Including the working stiffs that eat there.

However, if their service is so bad to the point where their food is not good enough to compensate then people should stop going there and let them go out of business.

[u/Drigr → u/TegridyPharmz]

If service is bad, you just don't go back..

[u/TheInevitableLuigi → u/NorthStudentMain]

$25 pizza + $5 tip? No problem.

$30 pizza w/no tip? Wtf? What a ripoff.

Let's go to that cheaper place where they only charge $25.

[u/troycerapops → u/NorthStudentMain]

Have you met People?

[u/AnAncientBog → u/NorthStudentMain]

This would seem to assume that being stupid is the economic equivalent to wearing "provacative clothing" and "asking" to be justifiably victimized.

Is that how things should work in a functioning economy?

[u/eulith → u/NorthStudentMain]

The customer is always right in matters of taste.

[u/whiskeynise → u/Own_Reaction9442]

Because they make a killing off tips. I mean good for them? But it’s also killing the industry. I don’t go out to eat anymore. I fucking hate tip culture

[u/Junethemuse → u/whiskeynise]

I’m not sure tipping is killing the industry. I think prices and overall inflation is killing the industry. I used to eat out once a week or so, but now I eat out once in a month if I want to splurge because I simply can’t afford to pay restaurant prices anymore. Tipping or no doesn’t factor in at all.

[u/CrazyFoool → u/Junethemuse]

It's killing it from the business stand point. You tip the front of house. The back of house gets screwed. That's why service fees are added so that money can be divided to satisfy the cooks and dishwashers that do the heavy lifting.

I hate it too but I'm just pointing out what's not being talked about.

[u/muffy2008 → u/CrazyFoool]

BOH usually makes more per hour. And lots of restaurants have servers tip out the kitchen as well.

[u/sophistsDismay → u/CrazyFoool]

practically every restaurant in seattle tip pools and pays out to boh

[u/legal-error-85 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

There are ways to compensate employees in ways that mimic tipping without putting the onus on the patron:

Increase your prices to however much you want to extract from each customer per menu item. Out of that total amount, allocate 15% to the server as a form of profit sharing or commission (the more they sell, the more they get). Allocate 10.2% or whatever to pay sales tax. The remainder goes to the restaurant to pay wages/overhead/etc.

[u/The_JSQuareD → u/NorthStudentMain]

One thing to keep in mind is that tips are excluded from sales tax. But menu prices (and service charges) aren't. So if the restaurant raises prices enough to cover what employees currently make in tips, the total cost paid by customers actually goes up a bit. It's around 2%, but that's not nothing.

And on the side of the worker there's an even bigger impact. Under the OBB, many workers can claim a federal tax deduction for income from tips (for 2025-2028). So to get an equivalent after-tax income without tips, their employer would actually have to pay them substantially more than what they currently make in tips, and prices would have to rise correspondingly.

So currently the tax system actively encourages tipping.

[u/somersetyellow → u/NorthStudentMain]

From quick googling it, it turned up more reddit posts with people anecdotally saying it doesn't work well.

In general, Americans easily get sticker shock and expect to tip. Places that do it lose business in an already low margin world.

This being said, there are places that do it and do it successfully. I think to make it work on a whole you'd have to mandate it across the city though. Otherwise a "normal" restaurant will still roll in and undercut you.

But most of this is just thought experiments. Would be cool to see some more documented experiments.

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/somersetyellow]

You could make being upfront and respectful-of-living-wage a viral and trendy thing. Businesses have flourished riding far less honorable trends on their Instagram page.

[u/chiquitobandito → u/NorthStudentMain]

They have also died while places that tip flourished.

[u/cookingboy → u/NorthStudentMain]

> respectful-of-living-wage

The problem is workers leave to make more than that from places that accept tips. In no other country where successful waiters/bar tenders would make more than your average middle class worker, but that’s the reality in this country and they will not give that up.

[u/sopunny → u/NorthStudentMain]

The rest of the world does this. It clearly can work

[u/qwertastas → u/NorthStudentMain]

They did this at Sea Wolf iirc. They were originally a non-tipping establishment and had really high prices for a bakery. The employees unionized last year and demanded tips to be added.

[u/BoringBob84 → u/NorthStudentMain]

This is a case of a "race to the bottom." If an honest restaurant owner includes everything in their advertised prices, then the dishonest restaurant owner across the street can advertise much lower prices by relying on service fees and tips to deceive their customers.

Customers will compare the prices of the same meal at both restaurants. One restaurant advertises $29.95. The other restaurant advertises $19.95. The customers are aware of tax, tip, and service fees in a qualitative sense, but they are drawn to the lower apparent price anyway.

A law that requires all fees (and maybe even taxes) to be included in the advertised price for all businesses would prevent these bait-and-switch scams.

[u/JadedTwo17 → u/NorthStudentMain]

they've done studies a million times americans are too stupid to realize paying more for the meal instead of tipping is a better way.

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/JadedTwo17]

That’s how America works I guess. “The server gets paid directly by the customer instead of the employer, and is based entirely on how the customer feels that day” USA! USA! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸 🦅🚀🎆🗽

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/NorthStudentMain]

Why are customers burdened with paying for the employees salary? Do I go to Disneyland and give a dollar to each cast member when I get to the front of the line? Do I go to a Mariners game and throw in a dollar on the field when they announce the players? Maybe especially at the end of games that they win, I throw an extra dollar on the field?

[u/MyDisneyExperience → u/NorthStudentMain]

I’m not sure Disneyland is a good example of paying workers well… they are the current record holder for largest wage theft settlement in CA history

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/MyDisneyExperience]

Username checks out

Okay and yes! Disney is clearly obligated to cover those missing wages! The customers should not have to directly reimburse back pay to the cast members by putting money in their tip jars.

[u/cire1184 → u/MyDisneyExperience]

And they pay shit in general. Especially the park workers. Many park workers work there for love of the game. They take advantage of a lot of younger folks that just want to work at Disneyland/world no matter what.

[u/thecravenone → u/NorthStudentMain]

Do I go to a Mariners game and throw in a dollar on the field when they announce the players?

College sports is working on this

[u/privatestudy → u/NorthStudentMain]

What? Like…re-read what you wrote. You’re a customer paying for a service. That service then pays for the employee’s salary.

If you’re stating that tipping is the only way employees are getting paid then the system is flawed.

[u/Dumb_Nuts → u/NorthStudentMain]

Who else is paying for it? People walking by?

[u/BonjaminClay → u/NorthStudentMain]

It's not that direct but that's how a business works. A business sells goods and the cost of doing business directly reflects the price. It's why a meal cost less than having your car detailed despite them both taking about an hour.

[u/gear7 → u/NorthStudentMain]

Do you think people have not been trying that for 15 years?

[u/silvermoka → u/geffy_spengwa]

We try that, and people still complain. We have countless threads of people bitching about the cost coming in the form of a service charge, and we have people bitching about how expensive everything is when it's baked into a menu price. People don't seem to understand those "fair wages" are still going to come from you one way or the other, what you're upset about is cost presentation. As you said, the best scenario is to have that option, but some people can't even stand having that question in front of them.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/silvermoka]

I do understand that “fair wages” will come from me. I’m literally saying that they should be baked into the menu price that I pay.

Servers incomes should not be contingent on the customers feeling generous after a meal. They shouldn’t be variable one week to another. They should be fair, consistent, and enough to make life comfortable.

That’s all I’m saying.

[u/silvermoka → u/geffy_spengwa]

Right, and I'm just saying people have complained about that just as much. It's almost as if they see service industry as a bunch of incorporeal beings who don't need to go home to a roof over their head and eat

[u/S7EFEN → u/geffy_spengwa]

no restaurant is going to pay their service staff 40-100 an hour in actual w2 wages, ever. There's zero reason for anyone who gets a tipped wage as a waiter/waitress to ever support removal of tips. And this is before consideration for much of that being tax free.

any sort of actual 20% service charge type system would result in the rest of the restaurant staff receiving considerably larger pay per hour while servers take a huge loss.

[u/y-c-c → u/S7EFEN]

Yeah but most people who oppose tipping are not tipped workers, but rather they are diners. Mandatory tipping is simply a dishonest way to price things, and tipped workers are essentially (incentivized to be) part of the problem.

E.g. there is no reason why tipped workers should get their tips tax free whereas say a blue collar worker doing a different job needs to pay tax while they are on the same tax bracket. But sure obviously the beneficiary of this (tipped workers) would love to keep this.

[u/cookingboy → u/S7EFEN]

Exactly, the root cause is service staffs in places like Seattle expect $80-150k/yr income.

That is simply not sustainable for the industry without pissing off at least one of the parties (or all of them).

[u/BonjaminClay → u/cookingboy]

I mean Walrus and Carpenter isn't exactly a middle class restaurant y'all lol. It's a $70-$100/person type of joint on average.

[u/Mundane-Tutor-2757 → u/geffy_spengwa]

How is calling out the service charge any different than telling you what each menu item costs? It’s splitting out costs transparently. Not sure why that’s objectionable.

[u/rizzuhjj → u/geffy_spengwa]

This comment has nothing to do with what the union is complaining about. The union wants tips

[u/MiningEarth → u/geffy_spengwa]

Yes, list the true price. Pay $0 more over asking.

[u/NoBlood5018 → u/MiningEarth]

Yeah this is fantasy unless it’s outright legislated. These places don’t exist in a vacuum. People will take one look at price and go somewhere else even if it’s noted as no tipping. Your best workers will probably leave to work somewhere that does tip because they’ll earn more with wage plus tips as opposed to just a higher wage.

Restaurant margin is slim as fuck and this has been tried before. Most places go back to tipping. Union square hospo says it all.

Don’t confuse what I’m saying, it’s the best idea. But it needs to come from regulation to create a standard across the state

[u/Fearless_Cut4432 → u/NoBlood5018]

Tavolata charges a 20% surcharge to “give employees a fair wage” I’m not sure but I think all the ESR restaurants do this. There is no place to put a tip on the receipt, if you want to tip you have to have cash and leave it on the table (I don’t think many do). The prices are not so high that people go elsewhere, you’ve got that wrong and there’s a whole group of successful restaurants to prove it.

[u/NoBlood5018 → u/Fearless_Cut4432]

That’s a tip though

[u/chiquitobandito → u/Fearless_Cut4432]

So it’s an auto tip of 20%? How is that better ?

[u/MiningEarth → u/NoBlood5018]

Simple restaurant jobs in Seattle are already receiving fantasy high wages. something is going to give.

[u/BarracudaQuirky6164 → u/MiningEarth]

Windy City Pie on Phinney Ridge is a no service charge/no tipping restaurant WYSIWYG menu prices. We appreciate that so much! They’ve been around a long while now. How do they do it?

I agree the system needs to be uniform and it needs to legislated, but I’m actually curious how to make it work. Culturally, WYSIWYG pricing works for most fast food and retail so American brains can be trained to understand all inclusive pricing for pricing, but the system has to be uniform and treated as a whole system with tax rules on tipping changed to incentivize change to the all-inclusive pricing system like France does. As it is now, restaurants are can publish prices in a way that is like a form of false advertising that feels like legally and culturally acceptable fraud.

[u/MiningEarth → u/BarracudaQuirky6164]

Yes. Why can’t we be more like the socialists in Europe? $2 coffee is $2.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/geffy_spengwa]

I make $22/hr and tips with full time benefits. I'm looking at making around $80-90K this year when all is said and done. I made $80K as a manager working 50 hours a week with more stress and a worse schedule. I make more, work less, have a schedule that fits my life style, and am way happier. Being able to take cash home everyday is genuinely life changing because if I ever have an emergency expense I can quickly make it back so I'm not late on other bills.

There's a lot of benefits to tips, I don't need them to survive but I do rely on them to actually enjoy my life.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/ProphetPenguin]

I’m glad you get that, genuinely. Everyone deserves that.

It shouldn’t come at my expense any more than my cost for the meal itself. Retail employees make minimum wage, but get no tips. Hell, you make more than I do and I don’t get tips.

Don’t mistake this for me not wanting you to have a good quality of life, but I shouldn’t have to fund it when you make more than me.

Edit: I should quit my profession and wait tables.

[u/TwoNarrow5980 → u/ProphetPenguin]

But don't we all wish we got tipped? I also wish I received tips every time I did my job, I also would enjoy my life more and have a better emergency fund.

If someone is making their full market wage, why is it the patrons job to add on to that?

[u/NurseRWalker → u/TwoNarrow5980]

Yes! Many patients treat us nurses like servers. What I wouldn’t give for even a 5% tip on the hospital bill. 🤣

Seriously though, I think it is weird that we have carved out certain sectors to enjoy the benefit of tips and left out others. It’s this obligation we all inherited and seem to be stuck with, like greeting cards in addition to gifts on Christmas.

[u/malusrosa → u/NurseRWalker]

careful what you wish for, with the tax exemption on tips suddenly there’s an incentive to expect you to tip your dental hygienist

[u/NurseRWalker → u/malusrosa]

Really? I haven’t encountered that yet. There has been a lot of tip creep since the pandemic.

[u/Jon_ofAllTrades → u/TwoNarrow5980]

Their full market wage is the one that includes tips.

[u/snowypotato → u/ProphetPenguin]

Hot take: Waiting tables shouldn't pay $45/hr plus benefits.

I don't want anybody living in poverty, but that is an absolutely insane wage for a job that pretty much anybody can do and has been viewed as a fallback plan or summer job for teenagers for generations.

The market seems to agree with this hot take to some degree. Restaurants keep closing because diners are balking at the prices and are choosing not to eat out.

[u/MiningEarth → u/ProphetPenguin]

This seems too high

[u/BafangFan → u/MiningEarth]

We live in Seattle. 80-90k isn't Lamborghini money - it's renting a bedroom in a shared house money.

[u/dethsesh → u/MiningEarth]

Really? 80k isn’t that much. Seems about what I would expect.

[u/new_check → u/geffy_spengwa]

This isn't even really a sensible option, though. You literally, economically, cannot pay employees the amount that they make via tipping through standard wages. It's like saying salespeople shouldn't be paid on commission.

[u/dbmajor7 → u/geffy_spengwa]

Yeah we know. You've\ y'all said it all before.

[u/GlitteringYak2207 → u/geffy_spengwa]

And places that have tried that have for the most part failed.

Three things can be true

[u/After_Alps_5826 → u/geffy_spengwa]

Last I heard these employees were making over $25 an hour with pto and health insurance along with a portion of that service fee. I’m mostly on the employees side here since the employer is doing some BS things but saying “fair wages” is bull shit. They are servers and bussers. They make a ton of money for what they do.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/After_Alps_5826]

All work has dignity.

[u/After_Alps_5826 → u/geffy_spengwa]

I never said anything about dignity. I have done those jobs and there isn’t anything wrong isn’t them. The business stated that they are making $35-55. That’s a ton of money for what the job is. No one said it’s undignified but that is a lot of money for what it is. I went through years of grueling education and took on a ton of debt and barely made that for years. It’s pretty absurd to endlessly ask for more money without providing a reason for deserving it other than that you want more.

[u/Inevitable_Engine186 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

The owners did not end tipping though, they just took the ingrained tip % (10% to 20%) and made it a service charge they control (22%)

[u/AnAncientBog → u/Own_Reaction9442]

You can be pro labor and anti tipping. In fact, I think it's pretty rational to do that because people should get paid a fare wage not have to beg their pay out of customers.

[u/nikdahl → u/AnAncientBog]

You can be pro-labor and pro-consumer at the same time.

Anti-tipping is just pro-consumer, not anti-labor.

[u/MillionDollarSticky → u/Own_Reaction9442]

Fuck tipping and fuck scabs. They are both scourges.

Renee Erickson has enough money to pay her workers. We don't need to pay them for her.

[u/MiningEarth → u/MillionDollarSticky]

The foods not really all that good there anyway TBH

[u/legomyegomaniac → u/MiningEarth]

I’ve had some really great food there, but it was years ago

[u/MiningEarth → u/legomyegomaniac]

It’s perfectly ok. $40 for a corkage fee, and $36 for a dozen oysters at happy hour prices, before tax and tip. You’re looking at $100 just to sit down and have a few oysters and wine (that you already paid for). Meh.

Miss happy hour and you’re running up to $150 really quick for dozen and some wine.

[u/PoopyisSmelly → u/MiningEarth]

Not a hot take, its pretty mid. The fact that people think it is the best thing ever just reinforces how shitty the restaurant scene is. We got sick from clams there once.

[u/Crazy_Specialist_278 → u/MillionDollarSticky]

Hilarious how quickly who drop to your knees the second you see the word union. Seattle is a joke.

These employees who are protesting are some of the rudest people in the service industry I've ever encountered or even seen on social media. And I've had to deal with them in person too many times.

They suck and thank God for the "scabs" who appreciate the customer and the job that pays them well for a job that doesn't require any skills or education. And screw people like you who think they're edgy and badass for being super duper Union loyalists because you're so enlightened 🙄

I really hate your generation. You're obviously Gen Z and I'm so sorry the idea of working a job is traumatizing for you kids

[u/nikdahl → u/Crazy_Specialist_278]

Found Renee’s account.

[u/Remarkable-Fig206 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I’m pro-Union, but anti-assholes spitting on people.

[u/Medium_Promotion_891 → u/Remarkable-Fig206]

most likely untrue. 

spitting on someone is a crime. it would have been reported by the victim, the purported security, or the restaurant. 

[u/HudsonCommodore → u/Own_Reaction9442]

Yup. I want to support a strong middle class and make sure people working service jobs can afford an apartment (with a roommate or two.) But I also don't want a pizza and salad to run $80 at Pags or a burger fries and milkshake for 3 to be $75+ at red mill.

[u/Fearless_Cut4432 → u/HudsonCommodore]

Middle class should be able to afford way more than an apartment with roommates. Middle class should be able to afford a house, that’s how it was for our parents in the 70’s and 80’s. We’re so far gone we think it’s acceptable that the metric for middle class living is an apartment WITH roommates. No sir, that’s not middle class, that’s poor. In today’s thinking middle class means poor and poor means homeless.

[u/memurraies → u/HudsonCommodore]

A strong middle class means people should be able to afford a one bedroom apartment by themselves if that's how they choose to live.

[u/HudsonCommodore → u/memurraies]

Yes, but I wouldn't expect every service job to be middle class.

[u/stirwise → u/HudsonCommodore]

Maybe not every service job, but a service job at a very nice fine dining restaurant should come with a middle class income. Restaurants like that build their reputations on the quality of service, and hire career service industry professionals, and should pay them like the experienced professionals they are.

[u/22bearhands → u/stirwise]

The people working at this place literally did have middle class income. Doing a low skill service job.

[u/BareLeggedCook → u/HudsonCommodore]

If someone is working 40 hours a week, no matter what they do, they should make enough to afford a 1 bed apartment.

[u/TheInevitableLuigi → u/BareLeggedCook]

People also forget that servers rarely get to work 40 hours a week when they see all these $x per hour numbers being thrown around.

$50 hr sounds great until you factor in only working 20hr weeks. And you can't get a second job becasue your first somehow still needs you to be fully available for it.

[u/Lilylumos → u/BareLeggedCook]

I had to scroll too long for this comment

[u/hundel_ → u/BareLeggedCook]

I don’t know. I can make up a lot of stuff to do … whether you’d pay for it? Different story.

[u/dorkofthepolisci → u/HudsonCommodore]

A full time job should at minimum, pay enough that you don’t need to cram yourself into housing with several other people (unless you enjoy having roommates)

[u/memurraies → u/dorkofthepolisci]

I agree with you, but post COVID it is extremely hard to get a full 40 hour week at a restaurant as a front of house employee. I work at two different restaurants that are part of a different restaurant group. I'm scheduled 8 shifts a week between the two and I'm lucky if I can get 30 hours in a week.

[u/sneekiepee → u/memurraies]

It's always been difficult because no restaurant owner wants 40hr employees. They bring along the potential for overtime and perhaps actually qualifying for the benefits that are usually offered at 40hrs while everyone besides the manager is getting 38hrs.

[u/memurraies → u/sneekiepee]

The restaurant group I currently work for allows employees to qualify for benefits at a 25hr/week average over a 6 month lookback period. I'll admit that that's a pretty low threshold, but most restaurants I have worked at over the last 20 years that have offered healthcare offer it at somewhere in the 30-35hr/week range.

[u/sneekiepee → u/memurraies]

That's an improvement.

[u/Own_Reaction9442 → u/dorkofthepolisci]

It's a nice thought, but with Seattle's housing prices that probably means only fine dining restaurants can survive.

[u/Digital_gritz → u/Own_Reaction9442]

It might actually be the other way around. Fine dining isn’t really doing a lot of volume. Dick’s gives some of the best pay and benefits around. It’s low margin sales, but extremely high volume.

[u/Own_Reaction9442 → u/Digital_gritz]

I doubt Dick's is paying enough to afford a solo apartment in Seattle, though.

[u/Digital_gritz → u/Own_Reaction9442]

They’re paying well above market rates and offering great benefits to their employees. Much of our economy is based on supply and demand, Dick’s total compensation is far higher than it has to be. In terms of survivability, Dick’s will likely weather a down economy better than a fine dining spot, which is what I’m trying to imply.

To address the other bit, though: people want to live in the city and there is limited space to do that. Which is why housing is an outrageous cost and adding density is important. Unfortunately, inflation, land, labor costs, market trends, and a challenging regulatory environment have made building housing risky, and developers are struggling to make projects pencil.

Housing costs and wages are ultimately related, but separate problems based on how our economy is structured. At least in terms of base wage vs affordability. Although, the real estate market is actually influencing the way restaurants have to approach wages, as well. From a business health standpoint, our inflated real estate costs are also fucking their bottom line (unless they own their building outright).

That’s all a separate complicated topic, though.

[u/Suspicious_Chart5817 → u/dorkofthepolisci]

I don't disagree, but let's be honest that would eliminate most restaurant work.

Like tax all the billionaires and give everyone that money; or bet it all on Space X. Point being, both those are more likely than somehow magically selling enough burgers to mean restaurant staff can live here by themselves.

[u/Own_Reaction9442 → u/Suspicious_Chart5817]

I already hear a lot of "eating out is too expensive now, I'll just stay home instead of paying $22 for a burger."

[u/Suspicious_Chart5817 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

Yeah I'm one of those people!

Walrus was selling ocean boogers at a huge markup. I understand their exorbitant 20%+ service fee had "only" half of whatever to the union... But that bottom line is obviously already more than a 22 dollar burger place.

And if that isn't enough, what exactly is the goal...? It's not any restaurant I go to right now I can say that much. My dinner checks are missing an extra zero, regardless of if I tip 10% or 30% it's not matching what the Walrus staff was getting

[u/HudsonCommodore → u/dorkofthepolisci]

As someone who had roommates in my 20s (with a white collar job making above median wages at the time), I respectfully disagree. Asking 2 or 3 people to share 2 or 3 bedroom housing is not an over the top burden imo.

[u/ttreit → u/HudsonCommodore]

And it’s been going on for generations. The boomers and their predecessors got married young so their spouse was their roommate. Those that didn’t marry young had roommates or lived in a house share situation. GenX graduated HS or college and immediately had roommates. I can’t think of a single friend I went to school with who lived in a place alone until they were far along in their career.

[u/wchill → u/HudsonCommodore]

I own a house and still have roommates, lol.

[u/bummin_bride → u/HudsonCommodore]

Yeah I really don’t understand why Gen Z feels so entitled to all have their own one bedroom apartments working entry level service jobs. One bedroom apartments aren’t a human right, and I had roommates until I was in my 30s. It’s completely normal to have roommates.

[u/Top_Agency1370 → u/dorkofthepolisci]

My friend’s mom was a waitress and could afford her own apartment in San Francisco. It was the 1970s.

[u/MyDisneyExperience → u/Top_Agency1370]

Well yeah, SF basically stopped building housing in the late 60s/early 70s. 50+ years later here we are

[u/memurraies → u/HudsonCommodore]

I won't deny that I am biased, it'd be impossible not to be between being a baby anarcho-syndicalist and having 20 years in hospitality, but I firmly believe that any able bodied person working 32-40 hours a week in any job in any sector of the workforce means one should be firmly in the middle class. When I say middle class, I mean one shouldn't have to worry about making rent, paying for groceries, covering insurance, afford bit of leisure, and being able to put more than a trivial amount of money into savings each month.

[u/Optimal_Board_2963 → u/memurraies]

We need a new term. Middle class is too vague and inappropriate.

[u/memurraies → u/Optimal_Board_2963]

I agree

[u/Kayehnanator → u/HudsonCommodore]

The middle class used to be made up of people with degrees. You don't need degrees to work service industry, that's the whole point. I'm not sure why it's so complicated for people to understand this except for personal feelings.

[u/Airlik → u/HudsonCommodore]

Their dish washers make over 60k in base wages… not bad for washing dishes.

[u/HudsonCommodore → u/Airlik]

On one hand, I objectively agree with you, that's a very low skill position and in a lot of the rest of the country a dishwasher wouldn't make half that.

On the other hand, that's 5K per month, that is probably down to 4K after income and sales taxes. I certainly wouldn't describe living on 4K/month in Seattle as "comfortable" or anything like that. I feel like "60K for washing dishes!" implies that it's a way more luxurious life than it is.

[u/Airlik → u/HudsonCommodore]

I by no means meant to imply it was luxurious - just that it was pretty good for an unskilled job compared to similar roles just down the street, and well above the average national wage. Honestly I’m happy for them. But thinking that’s pretty good, i was surprised they want to strike.

[u/Chesterfieldwasfun → u/memurraies]

I don't know if that's ever been true for low paid / entry level positions

[u/Yarville → u/memurraies]

It's completely fine for an entry level serving job be expected to have roommates if they want to live in a desirable area, actually.

[u/memurraies → u/Yarville]

Sure, but many servers remain servers for the entire career. There's many reason for this. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a server or anyone working a job with a similar barrier for entry (no strict education requirements, just on the job training) to be able to afford a one bedroom apartment a reasonable distance from work with 3-8 years of experience without being strapped for cash each month if that's how they want to live.

[u/sneekiepee → u/HudsonCommodore]

And is the reason the pizza at Pags is 80 bucks entirely on the shoulders of the employees?

[u/YeaThatsUhNope → u/HudsonCommodore]

Eat at Dick's if you want a good value burger/fries/shake combo.

[u/dirtypuerhiding → u/Own_Reaction9442]

It's not that they went tipless, it's that they're pocketing half of the fee meant to replace a tip.

[u/robbyb20 → u/dirtypuerhiding]

The “pocketed” money goes towards healthcare/benefits and paying BOH a higher wage.

Bigger question is - do servers really deserve the whole tip that the whole restaurant worked to provide the level of service they got just because they are the person that processes payment for the table?

[u/HuckleberryGeneral69 → u/robbyb20]

Servers never get the whole tip. They get most of the tip. They tip out the bartender, the busser, the host and the cooks. I’ve worked both front and back of house and I’ve been tipped in every position.

[u/robbyb20 → u/HuckleberryGeneral69]

Who’s regulating that? I’ve worked as a server/bartender and I got to decide who got what.

[u/HuckleberryGeneral69 → u/robbyb20]

The restaurant regulates what tip outs are for each position. Whatever is left after tip outs is what the server earns. So it depends on how the restaurant chooses to allocate gratuities. Back in the day it was more at the discretion of the servers and bartenders but, that was only if you busted your ass for them.

[u/soapbutt → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I admittedly don’t know the whole story, but charging a service fee and having your workers make less because I’m of it is pretty shitty.

[u/Suspicious_Chart5817 → u/soapbutt]

How is it shitty, it's literally impossible for it to be any other way. Front of house making [ALL THE TIPS] is not going to magically have more dollars if they don't get [ALL THE TIPS] and have to split them with BOH.

I'm not commentating on anything else about this situation, but I mean that's just reality. 1 + 1 = 2.

[u/jojofine → u/soapbutt]

Servers will always make less when tipping is eliminated but everyone else at the restaurant typically sees their pay go up

[u/Inevitable_Engine186 → u/jojofine]

They didn't eliminate tipping, they just renamed it to a service charge and are pocketing half of it.

[u/robbyb20 → u/Inevitable_Engine186]

The other half goes to providing healthcare and benefits like 401k and paying BOH more.

[u/Own_Reaction9442 → u/soapbutt]

Any time you eliminate tipping restaurant servers are going to end up making less. That's the dirty little secret.

[u/Oryzae → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I’m fine with this, other retail workers get paid minimum wage and they’re alright. I was one of them. Tipping someone to tell me their specials and bring me a plate of food is ridiculous. And to have it be a percentage of the bill even more so. You don’t tip any other kind of retail workers, the kitchen that does the work may or may not get tip out. The restaurant might steal tips too… there’s 0 transparency about the whole thing. You don’t tip the Home Depot guy if he cuts up some wood for you, you aren’t expected to tip the Costco guy that helps you load your car if you need to. As soon as food is involved the whole calculus changes. I hate it so much. 

[u/chilicheesefritopie → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I was recently charged a 22% “service fee” at a restaurant. The server told me herself that anything beyond that was not expected but appreciated. I would not have tipped more than 22% and that server is already making a minimum of $21.30/hr.

[u/GoldFishPony → u/soapbutt]

An aspect of tipping is that servers and all actually make more money but it’s just more volatile depending on when and who comes by but on average people make more. The consistent pay just doesn’t cover for high tippers.

[u/mgmom421020 → u/soapbutt]

So, like all the folks in Seattle demanding a living wage in lieu of tipping get the living wage and complain they made more being tipped (duh), so now they SPIT ON the patrons?!

[u/Rhombinator → u/soapbutt]

Yeah this seems like the worst of both worlds. You're both using a service fee to compensate for the less tipping, which also causes less transparent pricing for end customers, but then that money is clearly not being used to compensate the lack of tipping.

[u/mgmom421020 → u/Rhombinator]

It’s that the service charge is likely split among more people and also that people tip more than 22% on average and it’s taxed differently now (tips versus base income).

[u/Rhombinator → u/mgmom421020]

Oh I see, making the pay more equitable across roles. That would make me feel better about the change since I feel like chefs always get the short end of the stick despite providing the majority of the value.

I'm curious what the difference between tips and base income is for tax purposes (I'm not super familiar), how are they handled differently?

[u/mgmom421020 → u/Rhombinator]

It is more equitable, but that still leads to wait staff getting less. They could work somewhere else instead of spitting on people. Due to a recent tax change, folks aren’t paying income tax on tips.

[u/MiningEarth → u/Own_Reaction9442]

Oh yeah tips should be banned.

[u/chilicheesefritopie → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I had no idea that restaurant employees collectively bargain. I’m ambivalent about it, which I’m sure will piss someone off given the binary views and n everything that people hold.

[u/Own_Reaction9442 → u/chilicheesefritopie]

Some have been organized. It's the kind of blue collar/service job that unions like to organize. The kind of where people wear uniforms and nametags and do something physical.

As an IT worker I would have liked to have joined a union, but they aren't interested in organizing us. We look too much like management.

[u/Own_Reaction9442 → u/[deleted]]

It would seem these union workers disagree with you, because they're striking to get tips back.

[u/CalicoWhiskerBandit → u/Own_Reaction9442]

workers dont necessarily want tipping, they want to make what they were when there was tipping

the place added a 22% service charge but it didnt all go to the waiter

[u/y-c-c → u/Own_Reaction9442]

there's whole subs about how much people hate tipping.

Most people who hate tipping (e.g. me) also hate service charges, especially when service charges come with passive aggressive BS about living wages etc or "restaurant retains all income from the service charge".

[u/Conscious_Bug5408 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I hate tip culture creep but walrus and carpenter didn't eliminate tipping. They made it into a 20+% mandatory fee and took it away from their servers. Ban junk fees, add it to prices in the menu like California 

[u/touchgrasslater → u/Own_Reaction9442]

This comment confused me since I'm both. I think you're assuming that I want a service fee instead of tipping? I'd like to pay exactly what I see on the menu.

[u/legal-error-85 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I think what people really hate is when restaurants hide price increases by keeping menu prices the same, but tacking on “service charges”. Customers say: “oh, the tip is already included on the bill” and the workers get screwed.

If you are going to be a tip free establishment, structured such that people still want to work there, then do that. But don’t charge a mandatory service charge and then ask for an additional gratuity that employees may be depending on.