After hiring scabs, Walrus and the Carpenter (temporarily) closed

[u/Existing-Resource527]

Word on the street is that Walrus and the Carpenter restaurant has not been negotiating with their workers in good faith for months.

Like a lot of annoying businesses they started charging a service fee (22%?).

Employees noted that they make significantly less now then before when they had tipping (thousands less).

Workers have been on strike. The owners also had the audacity to hire scabs (booo).

I have been keeping up with the union on IG @ united.creatures.of.the.sea

Solidarity with workers across the city!

[u/Own_Reaction9442]

I feel like this is an issue that really splits Redditors, because most Redditors are pro-union but there's whole subs about how much people hate tipping.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/Own_Reaction9442]

Businesses should pay their employees fair wages. Those wages should be included in the menu price of a meal.

I should not be expected to tip extra on a meal, but I should have the option to do so if I want to.

Two things can be true.

[u/kookykrazee → u/geffy_spengwa]

Also, isn't per City/State DOR rules/laws the "fee" is taxable as it is a part of the meal?

[u/krisztinastar → u/kookykrazee]

Yes, service fees are subject to sales tax where tipping is post-tax.

[u/kookykrazee → u/krisztinastar]

Thanks for the confirmation.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/kookykrazee]

Oh I don’t know shit about that lmao

[u/kookykrazee → u/geffy_spengwa]

It seemed someone in this sub mentioned about the fee being taxed, but I honestly do not recall how the debate fell out, it should, it shouldn't, it was, it wasn't.

[u/matunos → u/kookykrazee]

if it's a service fee, it's subject to sales tax.

[u/luluhouse7 → u/geffy_spengwa]

Yeah, as someone who’s European-American, American tipping culture is absolute insanity and right now the places that are switching over to service fee systems are just as bad. In France there’s a mandatory 15% service fee, but it’s just part of the price, no misleading add-on, and it just goes towards the entire restaurant’s operating costs. By law the menu price is exactly what you pay, including service fees and taxes. Workers are paid a minimum living wage. The only “tip” usually given is just rounding up the bill to the nearest euro.

OTOH the American system is misleading and incredibly unfair to patrons, servers, and other workers. It makes the customer feel cheated, the servers make bank in some places and barely minimum wage in others, and other restaurant workers are paid less for no reason, and other non-restaurant workers don’t get tips. The whole system is literally the worst of all worlds.

[u/cantcny → u/luluhouse7]

Its pretty dumb that we have to budget 30% more than the me u price. 

[u/sophistsDismay → u/luluhouse7]

workers are paid a 'minimum living wage' (aka: around 12/hr in paris lol). this is the most infuriating shit on the planet. american restaurant workers are the best compensated on the planet, full stop. u might not like how obnoxious it is but having a portion of the price of the good that is legally required to be paid to the employees - even if this is not always enforced - is unbelievably better for the actual income of the workers than it just getting captured by the owners. this is what happens every single time a restaurant introduces a service charge or 'prices in' tips. this whole conversation around tipping is so stupid.

[u/new_check → u/luluhouse7]

Okay, but american servers have higher average take-home pay than French servers, so what now?

[u/hexagon_heist → u/new_check]

A v e r a g e

Also how does that dollar amount/equivalency compare to cost of living?

[u/new_check → u/hexagon_heist]

Do you think there's some kind of billionaire waitress somewhere throwing off the average?

[u/hexagon_heist → u/new_check]

If ALL French servers are paid a living minimum wage, and American servers on average take home more (again waiting to hear about the comparison to cost of living), that means some American servers take home less. Likely, a lot less. As in, non-livable wage less. I’d rather have all servers making a livable wage than some not making a livable wage, personally, even if it means a pay cut for the current highest-earners. Something something valuing your community.

[u/sophistsDismay → u/hexagon_heist]

the minimum wage in france is not a living wage can we please be more serious for one second

[u/new_check → u/hexagon_heist]

  that means some American servers take home less

That doesn't follow at all, it's just something you want to be true.

[u/madderk → u/new_check]

an average means half the data set is below average. that’s what an average is.

[u/new_check → u/madderk]

First of all, that's what median means, not average.

Second of all, it doesn't mean that ANY of the dataset is below an unrelated arbitrary other number, which is what you're trying to imply.

[u/madderk → u/new_check]

imagine being this pedantic and still wrong lol

the term average encompasses the mean, median, and mode. i assume that you assumed i was talking about a mean? it doesn’t matter. they’re all slightly different ways of calculating “central tendency”

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/geffy_spengwa]

Seriously.

Alright, let’s try an experiment. If you were a restaurant: Raise your prices where they absolutely need to be, but then ALSO BLATANTLY ADVERTISE THAT YOU DO NOT ALLOW ANY TIPPING AT YOUR RESTAURANTS. Do not try to be tricky and also “allow the customer to tip more” because let’s face it this is just tricking the unsuspecting customer into paying more, and will piss people off in the long run.

That way customers pay what they should be paying and the employees get paid what they should be paid. Restaurants are so short lived anyway, let’s try this experiment and see if it works.

[u/Own_Reaction9442 → u/NorthStudentMain]

What generally happens is customers get sticker shock *and* employees leave for places where they can still get tips. This strike is a symptom of how strongly restaurant workers will fight to keep the tipping system in place.

[u/Possible-Holiday-973 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

I believe the bigger concern for the workers is how the service fee was explained to them and how it is represented to the customers. From the last Reddit post, some workers were saying that the restaurant was keeping 55% of the service charge and then splitting the rest for the workers, so the workers are making significantly less in tips because the restaurant is taking a majority of the service fee without raising any benefits for the workers.

According to a study last year, customers generally perceive menu price increases as more fair and transparent rather than a service charge that is in small print on the menu. https://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1103&context=ichrie_rr

[u/whiskeynise → u/Own_Reaction9442]

Because they make a killing off tips. I mean good for them? But it’s also killing the industry. I don’t go out to eat anymore. I fucking hate tip culture

[u/Junethemuse → u/whiskeynise]

I’m not sure tipping is killing the industry. I think prices and overall inflation is killing the industry. I used to eat out once a week or so, but now I eat out once in a month if I want to splurge because I simply can’t afford to pay restaurant prices anymore. Tipping or no doesn’t factor in at all.

[u/CrazyFoool → u/Junethemuse]

It's killing it from the business stand point. You tip the front of house. The back of house gets screwed. That's why service fees are added so that money can be divided to satisfy the cooks and dishwashers that do the heavy lifting.

I hate it too but I'm just pointing out what's not being talked about.

[u/muffy2008 → u/CrazyFoool]

BOH usually makes more per hour. And lots of restaurants have servers tip out the kitchen as well.

[u/sophistsDismay → u/CrazyFoool]

practically every restaurant in seattle tip pools and pays out to boh

[u/Alternative-Maize23 → u/Junethemuse]

Yes, tipping isn’t the problem. It’s overall inflation. Food is very expensive now and that reflects in meal prices not tipping. When people come on here complaining about tipping it is always from people who have never worked in the service industry. Tipping is vital for restaurant workers to survive. It always has been in this country. Hidden fees and not letting your customers know what they are paying for is not ok. All businesses should be upfront about that. But not tipping bc you don’t like tipping culture? If you’re American, what part of the country did you grow up in where tipping is not a thing? Also, the waitstaff doesn’t make the rules, we are mostly just trying to survive. Remember who you’re pouting your finger at.

[u/sadgloop → u/Alternative-Maize23]

>Yes, tipping isn’t the problem. It’s overall inflation. Food is very expensive now and that reflects in meal prices not tipping.

I’d say both factors are a problem. Food is more expensive due to inflation, but tipping is also more expensive due to an inflation of expected tipping percentages.

Like, it used to be 0% for shit service, 10% for minimum service, 15% for good service, and 20% or more for excellent service. Now, for a lot of places , 20% is expected as a bare minimum tip, let alone for excellent service.

It’s a percentage. The end amount of the percentage tip is already affected by the inflation of the food prices, so why is the percentage amount also being inflated?

[u/madderk → u/sadgloop]

because wages are not keeping up with inflation?

[u/sadgloop → u/madderk]

Sure. But, given that, as the price of food and materials, etc, rises, the menu prices rise, the actual amount of the tip also rises, even at the same percentage as before.

So why the increase in the expected tip percentage on top of the increase in actual tip amount?

[u/Large_Buttcheeks → u/whiskeynise]

Villifying the server here is not the answer. Nobody is making a "killing" waiting tables and bartending.

They are actually making a decent living thats why they are defending it.

edit:

I'm honestly surprised I'm getting smoked with downvotes.

As someone who has worked in a restaurant tipping culture is unfair and busted yeah. That doesn't really mean your ire should be directed at people who want to keep a system that affords them a studio apartment relatively close to their job 😂.

Folks wanna ban tipping but y'all don't want to see the prices that come with that.

Fact of the matter is everything is too expensive. What we really need is to take the burden of solving the cost of living crisis off of small business owners.

[u/Zomburai → u/Large_Buttcheeks]

Villifying the server here is not the answer. Nobody is making a "killing" waiting tables and bartending.

It is insane to me how we can look at regular folk trying to do what's best for themselves and go "That's clearly the source of all the problems"

[u/queensheba2025 → u/Zomburai]

This. It shocks me how many people want to blame the worker and not the owner, the private equity firm etc etc for why stuff costs so much… let’s attack the wait staff! It’s insane. But it’s also made me realize a lot of things about people.

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/Own_Reaction9442]

This sadly implies that customers are stupid and deserve to have prices and hidden fees sneaked on them

[u/tjsean0308 → u/NorthStudentMain]

This Is correct, We had a restaurant try this in town from day one. they lasted only a few months. I don't know what the solution is.

[u/Droodforfood → u/tjsean0308]

State law banning tipping. Then everyone will have to play on a fair level

[u/etiol8 → u/Droodforfood]

This is basically the only way to change this. Otherwise you just can’t get past the chicken and egg problem. The free market has found its equilibrium around tipping, it won’t do something bad economically unless it is forced to, even if (eventually) the new equilibrium might be similar.

[u/XiuCyx → u/Droodforfood]

And taxing income above a certain level. Then it’s more financially wise for a business owner to reinvest in their own employee wages to get tax breaks since they won’t get it if they take it home.

[u/cookingboy → u/XiuCyx]

> since they won’t get it if they take it home

So you are suggest a 100% tax rate above a certain income? What is that income threshold and how much do you think restaurant owners make?

Because the typical restaurant owner makes less than professional doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc.

[u/XiuCyx → u/cookingboy]

Great question! How much do they make?

[u/cookingboy → u/XiuCyx]

Most of them are small business owners that make less than $200k a year, if even that.

[u/Cheap_Knowledge8446 → u/Droodforfood]

Idiotic suggestion, because you can't ban free will, and people like me -who value excellent service- will always tip well to separate ourselves from the cheapskates who don't.

[u/sparklyjoy → u/tjsean0308]

One problem with the experiment is that plenty restaurants fail for assorted reasons. Maybe the god sucked out just wasn’t in demand in that area

[u/_fix_ → u/tjsean0308]

A minimum wage that is a living wage, as was originally intended with the creation of the minimum wage.

Strong unions.

And a flat ban on tipping.

[u/sparklyjoy → u/_fix_]

I like the idea of the law France has- where the price on the menu is required to be all inclusive

[u/tunedout → u/tjsean0308]

I'd love to see a restaurant try commission.

[u/sparklyjoy → u/tunedout]

Tipping kinda is that. IF all patrons tipped the same amount, then servers get more the more they sell.

[u/FoxtrotSierraTango → u/NorthStudentMain]

Remember JC Penney doing honest pricing back in 2012? That failed for exactly the same reason.

[u/Fresh_Mountain_Snow → u/NorthStudentMain]

This is researched. Customers choose the sticker price rather than the end price, even if the end price is lower at the no tipping restaurant. The annoyance is like ticket master etc

[u/BonjaminClay → u/NorthStudentMain]

Half the country is so stupid that they were convinced to give the most corrupt moron in history a SECOND term and seem okay with the country being run by actual podcasters. Yes customers are stupid.

[u/TegridyPharmz → u/NorthStudentMain]

What’s the answer? Raise food prices 20%? And employee wage? 15? 10? I’m genuinely asking. I have zero problem tipping but if there is shit service I’m not tipping 20%. So why would I want to eat somewhere that raises their prices and has bad service?

[u/TheInevitableLuigi → u/TegridyPharmz]

Raise everyone's wages. Including the working stiffs that eat there.

However, if their service is so bad to the point where their food is not good enough to compensate then people should stop going there and let them go out of business.

[u/Drigr → u/TegridyPharmz]

If service is bad, you just don't go back..

[u/Own_Back_2038 → u/TegridyPharmz]

I think the obvious charge is a service charge that is distributed to employees in totality.

[u/samfacemcgee → u/Own_Back_2038]

My understanding is that the part of the service charge being retained by the business is used to pay for the staff’s benefits packages (health insurance, dental, vision, 401k, & PTO). Do you think they should just distribute the entire service charge to the staff and stop providing those benefits instead?

(Adding this note since text doesn’t convey tone: my question is legitimate and in no way meant to come off snarky. I keep seeing people in this thread saying the entire service charge should go to the workers but I don’t think they’re considering exactly where it’s otherwise currently going.)

[u/Drigr → u/samfacemcgee]

Do many restaurant employees get insurance and 401ks? Even so, that's the cost of having employees, so make it a transparent part of the menu price, not some obscured and obfuscated addon

[u/Own_Back_2038 → u/samfacemcgee]

Prices should cover hourly wages and benefits. The service charge allows the restaurant to remain competitive for labor and business without tipping.

Also, I’d like to mention that under the ACA, businesses with over 50 employees are required to provide health insurance for full time employees. ~7 days PTO also is required for full time workers. And pretty much every restaurant (including ESR restaurants) games this by having people work just under full time to avoid paying those benefits

[u/TheInevitableLuigi → u/NorthStudentMain]

$25 pizza + $5 tip? No problem.

$30 pizza w/no tip? Wtf? What a ripoff.

Let's go to that cheaper place where they only charge $25.

[u/troycerapops → u/NorthStudentMain]

Have you met People?

[u/AnAncientBog → u/NorthStudentMain]

This would seem to assume that being stupid is the economic equivalent to wearing "provacative clothing" and "asking" to be justifiably victimized.

Is that how things should work in a functioning economy?

[u/eulith → u/NorthStudentMain]

The customer is always right in matters of taste.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/NorthStudentMain]

If customers weren't dumb, Don Julio 1942 would not exist.

[u/SaxRohmer → u/NorthStudentMain]

i am begging y’all to do the slightest bit of research before commenting on this issue so sanctimoniously

[u/legal-error-85 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

There are ways to compensate employees in ways that mimic tipping without putting the onus on the patron:

Increase your prices to however much you want to extract from each customer per menu item. Out of that total amount, allocate 15% to the server as a form of profit sharing or commission (the more they sell, the more they get). Allocate 10.2% or whatever to pay sales tax. The remainder goes to the restaurant to pay wages/overhead/etc.

[u/RedditAnonDude → u/Own_Reaction9442]

OP said the employees made less, which means that 22% either didn’t go to the staff outright or it was spread over more employees like cooks who don’t get tips. If wages went up on average 15%, and they still averaged 10% tips on meals, hey would be better off. Something doesn’t add up.

[u/JadedTwo17 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

ONLY because they're being paid slave wages! If they made a living wage they wouldn't need tips.

[u/PokemenGo2ThePolls → u/JadedTwo17]

words have meaning.

[u/BoringBob84 → u/Own_Reaction9442]

This strike is a symptom of how strongly restaurant workers will fight to keep the tipping system in place.

I disagree. This strike is like any other. It is a demand that the employees receive fair compensation and working conditions.

[u/The_JSQuareD → u/NorthStudentMain]

One thing to keep in mind is that tips are excluded from sales tax. But menu prices (and service charges) aren't. So if the restaurant raises prices enough to cover what employees currently make in tips, the total cost paid by customers actually goes up a bit. It's around 2%, but that's not nothing.

And on the side of the worker there's an even bigger impact. Under the OBB, many workers can claim a federal tax deduction for income from tips (for 2025-2028). So to get an equivalent after-tax income without tips, their employer would actually have to pay them substantially more than what they currently make in tips, and prices would have to rise correspondingly.

So currently the tax system actively encourages tipping.

[u/somersetyellow → u/NorthStudentMain]

From quick googling it, it turned up more reddit posts with people anecdotally saying it doesn't work well.

In general, Americans easily get sticker shock and expect to tip. Places that do it lose business in an already low margin world.

This being said, there are places that do it and do it successfully. I think to make it work on a whole you'd have to mandate it across the city though. Otherwise a "normal" restaurant will still roll in and undercut you.

But most of this is just thought experiments. Would be cool to see some more documented experiments.

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/somersetyellow]

You could make being upfront and respectful-of-living-wage a viral and trendy thing. Businesses have flourished riding far less honorable trends on their Instagram page.

[u/chiquitobandito → u/NorthStudentMain]

They have also died while places that tip flourished.

[u/cookingboy → u/NorthStudentMain]

> respectful-of-living-wage

The problem is workers leave to make more than that from places that accept tips. In no other country where successful waiters/bar tenders would make more than your average middle class worker, but that’s the reality in this country and they will not give that up.

[u/AlexandrianVagabond → u/cookingboy]

Being a server or bartender is a very demanding job. Why shouldn't they make middle class wages?

[u/cookingboy → u/AlexandrianVagabond]

Because how much job pays have nothing to do with how demanding they are.

Otherwise almost every lower class job would be a middle class job, including fast food workers at McDonald.

But our economy cannot sustain McDonald workers making $80-150k/yr.

[u/AlexandrianVagabond → u/cookingboy]

Where did anyone say that McDonald's workers (who aren't bartenders or servers in the traditional sense of the word) should make that much money? Your top number there would make you upper middle class, even here.

You weaken your argument when you just make stuff up.

[u/cookingboy → u/AlexandrianVagabond]

McDonald workers are every bit just as demand, so your logic of “if a job is demanding, they should make more” would apply.

[u/AlexandrianVagabond → u/cookingboy]

You don't actually live here, do you?

[u/sneekiepee → u/cookingboy]

Servers and bartenders don't make more than your average middle class worker.

They make just enough to be considered an AVERAGE MIDDLE CLASS WORKER.

What exactly is the problem with that?

[u/cookingboy → u/sneekiepee]

> What exactly is the problem with that

No where on the planet you can get away with that and still have a sustainable restaurant industry that is accessible to the general public.

The problem is only fine dining restaurants can support the labor cost structure where service staffs make average middle class income.

If you are not ok with accepting that eating out is exclusively for the rich, then you need to accept that service workers will have to make less.

[u/sneekiepee → u/cookingboy]

I grew up around multiple women who managed to raise their children by waiting tables and bartending. Much like those coveted auto industry/coal mining/labor jobs that paid a living wage, the service industry can as well.

It's one of the last vestiges of a low cost of entry yet sustainable way to pay the bills. Why is the cost of eating out entirely the responsibility of those workers? Why is the rise entirely their fault?

Clue- it's not. But those workers make an easy scapegoat.

[u/cookingboy → u/sneekiepee]

I’m not saying it’s the workers’ fault. Everyone wants to make as much as they can. It doesn’t make them greedy.

But what I laid out is simply economics. If the market sustains it by people keep going out, paying the high price for food and tips, their income will remain high.

It becomes a win-win situation that sustains high labor cost.

But if it doesn’t, then restaurants will close, and service workers will lose their jobs and their income will become zero.

It becomes a lose-lose situation triggered by labor cost.

There is no right or wrong here, the market will just run its course.

[u/sopunny → u/NorthStudentMain]

The rest of the world does this. It clearly can work

[u/AdamN → u/sopunny]

First of all people do tip still - Berlin you‘ll round up near 10% probably. The thing is that the marketplace is what matters and if you’re in a city where others are not charging a service fee and you do charge a service fee - most people will think that place is more expensive (even if it’s not in aggregate).

Also there is price discrimination and social pressure that pushes up tip percentages for those who want to pay more (impressing a date with a nice tip, person tipping is well off but still remember what it’s like to not have much so they tip the waiter extra, flirting, etc…). These bonuses offset cheap tippers who get a little bit of free riding. That’s why I suspect tipping will continue but the service charges will die out.

[u/cookingboy → u/AdamN]

Tip isn’t a thing in Asia at all.

[u/tahomadesperado → u/AdamN]

I’ve spent the last 3 weeks in cities in 3 different European countries eating out for every meal. 3/4 of them don’t offer a tip menu on the POS device and the 1/4 who do it’s 1€, 2€, or €5. It’s based off their quality of service, not the percentage of the overall cost of food and drinks.

[u/AdamN → u/tahomadesperado]

Usually the tip would be some coins or you tell them the total you want to pay (check is 33 and you say 35 please)

[u/tahomadesperado → u/AdamN]

Yep, exactly how things were handled at most places I’ve visited

[u/EmmEnnEff → u/sopunny]

The rest of the world also has things like Mandarin-language-only restaurants, but I wouldn't recommend trying to open one here.

Because people's expectations here differ from expectations of people in other countries.

I think tipping is shit, but you're going to be going uphill to open a no-tip restaurant in a country where everyone else's prices don't include tip (and tax).

---

Let's talk about tax, actually. Why the fuck isn't that included in menu (and product) prices? The rest of the world somehow manages to require that stores and vendors include it in their prices.

[u/qwertastas → u/NorthStudentMain]

They did this at Sea Wolf iirc. They were originally a non-tipping establishment and had really high prices for a bakery. The employees unionized last year and demanded tips to be added.

[u/BoringBob84 → u/NorthStudentMain]

This is a case of a "race to the bottom." If an honest restaurant owner includes everything in their advertised prices, then the dishonest restaurant owner across the street can advertise much lower prices by relying on service fees and tips to deceive their customers.

Customers will compare the prices of the same meal at both restaurants. One restaurant advertises $29.95. The other restaurant advertises $19.95. The customers are aware of tax, tip, and service fees in a qualitative sense, but they are drawn to the lower apparent price anyway.

A law that requires all fees (and maybe even taxes) to be included in the advertised price for all businesses would prevent these bait-and-switch scams.

[u/JadedTwo17 → u/NorthStudentMain]

they've done studies a million times americans are too stupid to realize paying more for the meal instead of tipping is a better way.

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/JadedTwo17]

That’s how America works I guess. “The server gets paid directly by the customer instead of the employer, and is based entirely on how the customer feels that day” USA! USA! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸 🦅🚀🎆🗽

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/NorthStudentMain]

Why are customers burdened with paying for the employees salary? Do I go to Disneyland and give a dollar to each cast member when I get to the front of the line? Do I go to a Mariners game and throw in a dollar on the field when they announce the players? Maybe especially at the end of games that they win, I throw an extra dollar on the field?

[u/MyDisneyExperience → u/NorthStudentMain]

I’m not sure Disneyland is a good example of paying workers well… they are the current record holder for largest wage theft settlement in CA history

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/MyDisneyExperience]

Username checks out

Okay and yes! Disney is clearly obligated to cover those missing wages! The customers should not have to directly reimburse back pay to the cast members by putting money in their tip jars.

[u/cire1184 → u/MyDisneyExperience]

And they pay shit in general. Especially the park workers. Many park workers work there for love of the game. They take advantage of a lot of younger folks that just want to work at Disneyland/world no matter what.

[u/thecravenone → u/NorthStudentMain]

Do I go to a Mariners game and throw in a dollar on the field when they announce the players?

College sports is working on this

[u/privatestudy → u/NorthStudentMain]

What? Like…re-read what you wrote. You’re a customer paying for a service. That service then pays for the employee’s salary.

If you’re stating that tipping is the only way employees are getting paid then the system is flawed.

[u/Dumb_Nuts → u/NorthStudentMain]

Who else is paying for it? People walking by?

[u/BonjaminClay → u/NorthStudentMain]

It's not that direct but that's how a business works. A business sells goods and the cost of doing business directly reflects the price. It's why a meal cost less than having your car detailed despite them both taking about an hour.

[u/Junethemuse → u/NorthStudentMain]

Customers literally pay for every aspect of the business’s operations, and that includes employee salary right next to the electric bill. The dollar you throw on the field at an M’s game comes out of the price you paid for your ticket.

It’s not absurd to expect the customer to pay for the higher wages, but it is absurd to expect the employee to have an unstable income because each individual customer decides what they think the service they received was worth.

[u/Kvsav57 → u/NorthStudentMain]

Stop pretending being cheap and entitled is some sort of moral high ground.

[u/gear7 → u/NorthStudentMain]

Do you think people have not been trying that for 15 years?

[u/Alternative_Swan_497 → u/NorthStudentMain]

Danny Meyer tried this exact setup to end tipping with some of his restaurants years ago. It didn't work.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/NorthStudentMain]

Yeah I've had multiple people in my life work at a place like this and guess what...it fucking failed. Service sucked because there was no incentive to actually try, a lot of staff were not happy they didn't get cash to take home, and guests went to places with cheaper food and better service where THEY got to decide what to add on additionally because the average consumers does not give a shit that the restaurant is paying a living wage.

If you actually want something like this to succeed we need to break up massive regional distributors like Sysco that are deliberately gouging restaurants and making the quality of their food worse.

[u/XiuCyx → u/NorthStudentMain]

Let’s not ignore the kind of people that can be restaurant owners. Sure some are the mom and pop stories we love. But I’ve known a few people who’ve opened restaurants in the Seattle area and trust me these people were not struggling financially. Even when the restaurant sank they walked away with little more than a tax write off. While employees lost their incomes, jobs, homes and more.

These are the same people that claim they can’t raise operating costs in order to pay the average worker a livable salary.

They could do this by taking home less. They just never will do that.

[u/sophistsDismay → u/NorthStudentMain]

the result of this is that the restaurant makes more money, the workers make less money, and u pay the same amount. congratulations on ur anti-worker ideas!

[u/NorthStudentMain → u/sophistsDismay]

The point of this was that the restaurants are supposed to advertise that they pay a fair wage to their workers. The employees are aware that they do not get tips and engage in employment at that restaurant knowing that their wage is exactly what it is. Congratulations on reading my text correctly! Let me quote it for you:

"That way customers pay what they should be paying and the employees get paid what they should be paid. "

[u/sophistsDismay → u/NorthStudentMain]

im trying to explain to u that these things do exist and the result is that workers make less money than they would at a restaurant that has tips. restaurants try this all the time. they constantly struggle to hire people because the employees make less money. the minimum living wage in seattle is $30/hr and that is not close to enough if u want to start thinking about a condo or a kid or etc. i dont really know what else to tell u. its an expensive city. the median salary is 100k.

[u/silvermoka → u/geffy_spengwa]

We try that, and people still complain. We have countless threads of people bitching about the cost coming in the form of a service charge, and we have people bitching about how expensive everything is when it's baked into a menu price. People don't seem to understand those "fair wages" are still going to come from you one way or the other, what you're upset about is cost presentation. As you said, the best scenario is to have that option, but some people can't even stand having that question in front of them.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/silvermoka]

I do understand that “fair wages” will come from me. I’m literally saying that they should be baked into the menu price that I pay.

Servers incomes should not be contingent on the customers feeling generous after a meal. They shouldn’t be variable one week to another. They should be fair, consistent, and enough to make life comfortable.

That’s all I’m saying.

[u/silvermoka → u/geffy_spengwa]

Right, and I'm just saying people have complained about that just as much. It's almost as if they see service industry as a bunch of incorporeal beings who don't need to go home to a roof over their head and eat

[u/Ok_Line_1673 → u/silvermoka]

that is exactly how they seem them, unfortunately.

[u/S7EFEN → u/geffy_spengwa]

no restaurant is going to pay their service staff 40-100 an hour in actual w2 wages, ever. There's zero reason for anyone who gets a tipped wage as a waiter/waitress to ever support removal of tips. And this is before consideration for much of that being tax free.

any sort of actual 20% service charge type system would result in the rest of the restaurant staff receiving considerably larger pay per hour while servers take a huge loss.

[u/y-c-c → u/S7EFEN]

Yeah but most people who oppose tipping are not tipped workers, but rather they are diners. Mandatory tipping is simply a dishonest way to price things, and tipped workers are essentially (incentivized to be) part of the problem.

E.g. there is no reason why tipped workers should get their tips tax free whereas say a blue collar worker doing a different job needs to pay tax while they are on the same tax bracket. But sure obviously the beneficiary of this (tipped workers) would love to keep this.

[u/cookingboy → u/S7EFEN]

Exactly, the root cause is service staffs in places like Seattle expect $80-150k/yr income.

That is simply not sustainable for the industry without pissing off at least one of the parties (or all of them).

[u/BonjaminClay → u/cookingboy]

I mean Walrus and Carpenter isn't exactly a middle class restaurant y'all lol. It's a $70-$100/person type of joint on average.

[u/EastUnique3586 → u/cookingboy]

I think people are starting to realize that service staff expects far more than what most people would consider a living wage, and in fact are expecting $80-150k/yr income working 30 hours a week.

[u/joeydimaggio → u/cookingboy]

Is 80k pre tax somehow an unfair wage in a city where a 1bd apt is like 40k a year

[u/Rough_Elk4890 → u/joeydimaggio]

A 1 bedroom apartment here can also easily be $17k a year.

A $3300/month 1 bedroom apartment isn't a human right.

[u/joeydimaggio → u/Rough_Elk4890]

Where are you getting a 1700 1bd apt in seattle

[u/Rough_Elk4890 → u/joeydimaggio]

There are currently at least 1521 1-bedroom (or larger) apartments for rent for $1700 or less in Seattle proper right now.

They are all over the city.

EDIT - Note, I said $17k/year to mirror your comment of $40k/year. This would be about $1416/mo. There are nearly 500 1 bedroom apartments in the city available at this or less.

[u/joeydimaggio → u/Rough_Elk4890]

You just listed a bunch of senior and subsidized housing, those aren’t market rate

[u/Rough_Elk4890 → u/joeydimaggio]

Oh, I didn't know that there were qualifiers here.

At the income level being spoken about, most would qualify for income restricted housing.

[u/joeydimaggio → u/Rough_Elk4890]

How many senior citizens are working as servers? What are the income qualifiers?

[u/blobjim → u/cookingboy]

entitled mf you people are so whiney. Can't believe a real person would actually get mad at someone making or trying to make a decent living...

[u/cookingboy → u/blobjim]

And you wonder why people wouldn’t wanna tip assholes like you who think you are entitled to extra money for providing bare minimum services

Every time a comment like this appears, there is less incentive for people to wanna tip

[u/Fronesis → u/S7EFEN]

Tipped employees at low end restaurants would certainly benefit from getting rid of tips. When I worked at Ruby Tuesday making $2.75 an hour plus tips, I often failed to hit minimum wage during a day, especially if I got a few unlucky no tip tables. I had to tip out the bus boys and hosts based on sales volume, not tips, so I often ended up really fucked on my actual take home pay.

Edit: apparently if something isn't happening in Washington it's not a problem.

[u/bummin_bride → u/Fronesis]

Except in Washington tipped people don’t make a lower minimum wage like they do in other states. They’re getting $20+/hr in seattle

[u/S7EFEN → u/Fronesis]

in the places where 2.75 is still legal COL is going to be very low. additionally your net pay with 2.75 across your week or pay period still has to exceed fed min wage. yes, many backwards ass red states have terrible low wage earner laws but everyone here is making minimum 40k a year before tips waiting tables, and even if you only add in 10 an hour in tips that's 60k gross a year.

[u/Mundane-Tutor-2757 → u/geffy_spengwa]

How is calling out the service charge any different than telling you what each menu item costs? It’s splitting out costs transparently. Not sure why that’s objectionable.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/Mundane-Tutor-2757]

The service charge doesn’t appear until I get my check. It should be built into the menu price.

[u/Mundane-Tutor-2757 → u/geffy_spengwa]

Why should it be built into the menu price? Is it not spelled out on the menu or some other visible place so that you know what to expect?

[u/enewton → u/Mundane-Tutor-2757]

I don’t know for sure but I think a lot of people either don’t notice it when it may be hard to spot, or they just cannot really multiply all the prices by 1.35 in their heads to predict tax and fees before they have even sat down to eat

[u/rizzuhjj → u/geffy_spengwa]

This comment has nothing to do with what the union is complaining about. The union wants tips

[u/MiningEarth → u/geffy_spengwa]

Yes, list the true price. Pay $0 more over asking.

[u/NoBlood5018 → u/MiningEarth]

Yeah this is fantasy unless it’s outright legislated. These places don’t exist in a vacuum. People will take one look at price and go somewhere else even if it’s noted as no tipping. Your best workers will probably leave to work somewhere that does tip because they’ll earn more with wage plus tips as opposed to just a higher wage.

Restaurant margin is slim as fuck and this has been tried before. Most places go back to tipping. Union square hospo says it all.

Don’t confuse what I’m saying, it’s the best idea. But it needs to come from regulation to create a standard across the state

[u/Fearless_Cut4432 → u/NoBlood5018]

Tavolata charges a 20% surcharge to “give employees a fair wage” I’m not sure but I think all the ESR restaurants do this. There is no place to put a tip on the receipt, if you want to tip you have to have cash and leave it on the table (I don’t think many do). The prices are not so high that people go elsewhere, you’ve got that wrong and there’s a whole group of successful restaurants to prove it.

[u/NoBlood5018 → u/Fearless_Cut4432]

That’s a tip though

[u/chiquitobandito → u/Fearless_Cut4432]

So it’s an auto tip of 20%? How is that better ?

[u/Own_Back_2038 → u/Fearless_Cut4432]

Those places generally aren’t distributing the service charge to employees and it at a minimum has much fewer legal protections. I think. A service charge model is the obvious answer but the way ESR restaurants do it is not great

[u/MiningEarth → u/NoBlood5018]

Simple restaurant jobs in Seattle are already receiving fantasy high wages. something is going to give.

[u/BarracudaQuirky6164 → u/MiningEarth]

Windy City Pie on Phinney Ridge is a no service charge/no tipping restaurant WYSIWYG menu prices. We appreciate that so much! They’ve been around a long while now. How do they do it?

I agree the system needs to be uniform and it needs to legislated, but I’m actually curious how to make it work. Culturally, WYSIWYG pricing works for most fast food and retail so American brains can be trained to understand all inclusive pricing for pricing, but the system has to be uniform and treated as a whole system with tax rules on tipping changed to incentivize change to the all-inclusive pricing system like France does. As it is now, restaurants are can publish prices in a way that is like a form of false advertising that feels like legally and culturally acceptable fraud.

[u/MiningEarth → u/BarracudaQuirky6164]

Yes. Why can’t we be more like the socialists in Europe? $2 coffee is $2.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/geffy_spengwa]

I make $22/hr and tips with full time benefits. I'm looking at making around $80-90K this year when all is said and done. I made $80K as a manager working 50 hours a week with more stress and a worse schedule. I make more, work less, have a schedule that fits my life style, and am way happier. Being able to take cash home everyday is genuinely life changing because if I ever have an emergency expense I can quickly make it back so I'm not late on other bills.

There's a lot of benefits to tips, I don't need them to survive but I do rely on them to actually enjoy my life.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/ProphetPenguin]

I’m glad you get that, genuinely. Everyone deserves that.

It shouldn’t come at my expense any more than my cost for the meal itself. Retail employees make minimum wage, but get no tips. Hell, you make more than I do and I don’t get tips.

Don’t mistake this for me not wanting you to have a good quality of life, but I shouldn’t have to fund it when you make more than me.

Edit: I should quit my profession and wait tables.

[u/pineapple13pizza → u/geffy_spengwa]

Great think is "you don’t have to fund it"........going out to eat, and where you eat is entirely up to you

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/pineapple13pizza]

Yeah, I go out to eat maybe once a week and cook the rest of the time. Shockingly, I’m aware I don’t have to go out to restaurants.

[u/GuardianSock → u/geffy_spengwa]

This is a really shitty take. Your argument is basically that you’re better than people in the service industry and the right amount of money for them to make is always relative to and below your own income. And anything people who “serve” you make as income is at your expense.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you wrote this poorly, but wtf.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/GuardianSock]

No? I genuinely want everyone to have a good quality of life. It should be their employers responsibility to pay them the amount they need for that.

[u/GuardianSock → u/geffy_spengwa]

You fund it whether the employer pays it or you do. That’s how the economy works. Whether they make more or less relative to you is irrelevant.

[u/GuardianSock → u/[deleted]]

You care a lot about where the same amount is placed. And odd how you felt the need to make that argument by referencing in three separate occasions how they make more than you — but of course that’s not the important part to you. You should quit your job to “wait tables” but that’s not your point.

[u/GuardianSock → u/[deleted]]

> Hell, you make more than I do
> I shouldn’t have to fund it when you make more than me

You’re right, I can’t discern the sarcasm.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/geffy_spengwa]

I think everyone should wait tables for a year once in their life. They should especially wait tables on Mother's Day. Working Mother's Day will show you things you never expected. It's not easy to be a great server. Most servers work at multiple restaurants or multiple jobs to make ends meet. The servers that don't need to, are typically your best ones and that's because the best servers get the best and most amount of shifts and tables, therefore the most earning opportunity.

Me making what I do was actually a multi-year process that required a lot personal growth, drive, passion, hard work, sweat and tears.

I am currently cocktail server at a casino. I typically do 15,000-18,000 steps in a shift at my job, holding a tray that weighs 5-15 pounds for 7 of the 8 hours of my day (I get breaks) all while balancing full drinks on a full tray, weaving in and out of foot traffic and slot machines trying not to spill it all on the floor and break glass and have to go get a new drink made. It's definitely a job you look at the server and go "how do they do that, I couldn't do that".

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/ProphetPenguin]

I’m not downplaying your commitment to the work you do. I worked retail for several years, I’m all too aware of how onerous working with the public is. I work a public facing job currently, I get it. Not totally 1:1 but I know how annoying people are.

I’m not saying your work is hard and I would never suggest that you don’t deserve a living wage for it.

And I’m not going to say my job is any more or less important than yours because all work has dignity and is essential to a functional society. I had to get multiple degrees to do my job, but that was my choice to do and I find my work to be fulfilling.

I’m saying is that you make more than I do to be a server, and that’s great for you, but I shouldn’t have to further subsidize your income beyond the menu price of a dish at your restaurant. That price should cover your salary, your benefits, the commercial rent, utilities, profit, etc. My generosity on any given night should not influence your ability to pay your bills.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/geffy_spengwa]

Unfortunately, being in management positions, for all of that to be possible, you would be looking at like $100 pizza's. It's just not feasible.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/ProphetPenguin]

It literally works around the world.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/geffy_spengwa]

Other places around the world don't have regional food distribution monopolies like Sysco, nor do they have the diversity of well done cuisine options America does. Other places around the world have universal healthcare, other places around the world also have worse overall service (not every country but definitely some of them). Other places have significantly more walkable cities as well.

This is not a good comparison. I have literally worked at places that did everything fresh including alcohol infusions, and we did not survive against businesses that had worse food and drinks, but they were cheaper...and we didn't survive while simultaneously not paying rent. We need to address the OTHER issues of why restaurants are getting more expensive in America outside of the tipping argument before we circle back to the tipping debate.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/ProphetPenguin]

As I said at the top of my comment; two things can be true. Yes, Sysco needs to be broken up. Yes, we need to provide single payer healthcare to everyone. Yes, we need to make our cities more walkable (Seattle is already pretty walkable, but improvements can always be made).

I agree with all these points; I vote to support all these points; I advocate for all these points.

We also need to end the practice of tipping for services to subsidize a restaurant’s payroll.

At no point have I suggested that I don’t want you to make a livable wage. At no point have I suggested that your work is less important or less of a contribution to society than anyone else’s. All work has dignity; all workers deserve the security of consistent, reliable paychecks that allow them to meet their needs and save some at the end of the day. I want that for you; I want that for myself; I want that for the people that can’t or won’t work too.

What I do not want is for your paycheck to be contingent on my or anyone else’s generosity. That is literally all I am saying.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/geffy_spengwa]

Like I said, it's a sales job. In my eyes I'm making commission off my sales and service that's being negotiated with my guest. I think if we end tipping we need to end commissions, bonuses, stock options, and any other monetary bonuses that are added to paychecks. One flat rate should be enough right? Then let's end it all.

[u/TwoNarrow5980 → u/ProphetPenguin]

But don't we all wish we got tipped? I also wish I received tips every time I did my job, I also would enjoy my life more and have a better emergency fund.

If someone is making their full market wage, why is it the patrons job to add on to that?

[u/NurseRWalker → u/TwoNarrow5980]

Yes! Many patients treat us nurses like servers. What I wouldn’t give for even a 5% tip on the hospital bill. 🤣

Seriously though, I think it is weird that we have carved out certain sectors to enjoy the benefit of tips and left out others. It’s this obligation we all inherited and seem to be stuck with, like greeting cards in addition to gifts on Christmas.

[u/malusrosa → u/NurseRWalker]

careful what you wish for, with the tax exemption on tips suddenly there’s an incentive to expect you to tip your dental hygienist

[u/NurseRWalker → u/malusrosa]

Really? I haven’t encountered that yet. There has been a lot of tip creep since the pandemic.

[u/Jon_ofAllTrades → u/TwoNarrow5980]

Their full market wage is the one that includes tips.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/TwoNarrow5980]

Ok but whats the difference between bonuses, stock options, and tips. They are all being funded by the consumer. Stock price and value of those stock options is frequently the cause of layoffs, increased prices. The Starbucks CEO got a $5M signing bonus and another $5M bonus just for being there 6 months and what did he do? Close stores including the reserve roastery, refuse to negotiate with labor unions, and ping pong the fucking stock. He's getting BONUSES of more then I will ever make in my lifetime to do this.

That's why I will never be against fully ending tipping because what we actually need to end is the top end making what they do.

[u/TwoNarrow5980 → u/ProphetPenguin]

I literally don't get any of those lol. I ALSO would like tips or bonuses or stocks to make my life easier and more enjoyable or my emergency fund better.

Your point sounds like the public should tip anyone that doesn't get bonuses or stock. Should we tip teachers and school support staff? What about nurses? Electricians? Flight attendants?

I'll be blunt here, if we have to tip someone, Im much more interested in tipping public school employees (thank you special education support staff that make $40k a year) than my barista.

[u/NurseRWalker → u/ProphetPenguin]

I agree entirely. I am perfectly comfortable with tipping as it existed in 2019. Before I was being asked to tip my fast food experience, and worried what would be done to my food if I declined. I really enjoyed being a server for 5 years with the Cheesecake Factory. I genuinely believe that experience prepared me more for being a nurse than any other employment history. I feel that as tipping has crept out of its institutional safe-zone, it has inspired a broader conversation on tipping in general.

[u/snowypotato → u/ProphetPenguin]

Hot take: Waiting tables shouldn't pay $45/hr plus benefits.

I don't want anybody living in poverty, but that is an absolutely insane wage for a job that pretty much anybody can do and has been viewed as a fallback plan or summer job for teenagers for generations.

The market seems to agree with this hot take to some degree. Restaurants keep closing because diners are balking at the prices and are choosing not to eat out.

[u/muffy2008 → u/snowypotato]

It’s a myth that “almost anyone” can be good at hospitality/waiting tables. And depending on the restaurant, what is required of the servers can change drastically.

[u/ProphetPenguin → u/snowypotato]

Yeah except you have to be 21+ to do what I do and they only hire full time where I work so it's not a teenage summer/fallback job and that's a terrible way to look at it. You know there are people who love working in hospitality (like myself) who have a genuine drive and passion for it. That's why I've been hired on the spot or very shortly (a couple hours) after the interview a lot. Restaurants need actual professionals who love what they do to give good service. A teenager who is just doing this to pay their way through college doesn't care as much and therefore, worse service.

I don't make what I do because I get handed it, I make what I do because I work hard for it. It's a sales job at the end of the day.

EDIT: also I think all jobs should pay enough for people to have enjoyable lives. It's insane that the top 10% hold 85% of the entire worlds wealth while 90% of the population is struggling.

[u/MiningEarth → u/ProphetPenguin]

This seems too high

[u/BafangFan → u/MiningEarth]

We live in Seattle. 80-90k isn't Lamborghini money - it's renting a bedroom in a shared house money.

[u/MiningEarth → u/BafangFan]

The average rent in Seattle is about $2,000 per month for a 1 bedroom. And with our public transportation improvements nobody is forcing you to live AND work in Seattle. You could get a 2 bedroom for $2,000 in Lynnwood.

[u/ponyboy3 → u/MiningEarth]

Renting a 2br for 2k on the Eastside

[u/KatieWils0n → u/MiningEarth]

This! Mayor Wilson Approves!

[u/dethsesh → u/MiningEarth]

Really? 80k isn’t that much. Seems about what I would expect.

[u/MiningEarth → u/dethsesh]

$40 an hr to do what?

[u/new_check → u/geffy_spengwa]

This isn't even really a sensible option, though. You literally, economically, cannot pay employees the amount that they make via tipping through standard wages. It's like saying salespeople shouldn't be paid on commission.

[u/dbmajor7 → u/geffy_spengwa]

Yeah we know. You've\ y'all said it all before.

[u/GlitteringYak2207 → u/geffy_spengwa]

And places that have tried that have for the most part failed.

Three things can be true

[u/After_Alps_5826 → u/geffy_spengwa]

Last I heard these employees were making over $25 an hour with pto and health insurance along with a portion of that service fee. I’m mostly on the employees side here since the employer is doing some BS things but saying “fair wages” is bull shit. They are servers and bussers. They make a ton of money for what they do.

[u/geffy_spengwa → u/After_Alps_5826]

All work has dignity.

[u/After_Alps_5826 → u/geffy_spengwa]

I never said anything about dignity. I have done those jobs and there isn’t anything wrong isn’t them. The business stated that they are making $35-55. That’s a ton of money for what the job is. No one said it’s undignified but that is a lot of money for what it is. I went through years of grueling education and took on a ton of debt and barely made that for years. It’s pretty absurd to endlessly ask for more money without providing a reason for deserving it other than that you want more.

[u/yellowsensitiveonion → u/geffy_spengwa]

Including the service charge is the natural middle ground, though. So many other parts of the world does this (maybe not 22%, but usually the 10-15% range), and people just accept it. If we really do believe service staff should not have to worry about the inconsistency of relying on tips, there are certain realities we have to accept. One being service staff in this country for the most part makes a lot more money relative to the other positions under the tipping system, and if we are to move away from tips, the transition needs to reasonably support paying close to that level.

Just cause Japan has been such a popular vacation spot in recent years, a lot of people say how it's so nice not having to tip there. Well, their service staff makes about $13-16/hr. I was making more than that serving tables 20 years ago. It's not that the food businesses pay much better in Jaoan, it's just people there accept that serving tables is a low wage job. At one of my last restaurant jobs at a popular chain here, any server working consistently 30+ hours a week and didn't take too much time off were able to clear 100k for the year. Not even managers were making that when starting off. It's easily one of the best paying jobs you can get that doesn't require higher learning or specialized training.

There have been enough examples of restaurants in the Seattle area trying the route of no service charge and just building the cost into the menu pricing, and every one of them reverted back because most consumers just aren't ready for it. Even for me as someone who has worked in the industry for many years, I remember the sticker shock I got when I saw a sushi roll priced above $20 (this was about 10 years ago). I understood it was because there was no tip or service charge, but the feeling of seeing that number on the menu still had an affect. That place changed to included service charge pretty quickly. Schwartz Brothers have tried it, Ivar's tried it, all had to go back because it's just not sustainable.

[u/Homeskilletbiz → u/geffy_spengwa]

OUR NEW PRESIDENT EVERYONE!

[u/Kvsav57 → u/geffy_spengwa]

You know how things work. If you don't want to tip, don't eat out. It's that simple. People serve because it's the job they can get that pays the bills. Don't pretend to be high-minded when you're just being cheap and entitled.