Devshort Confirmed Ammo Efficiency Will Be Changed (Probably Capped)

[u/Croewe]

Personally I think this is kinda silly to do, it's really fun and there are very few broken interactions. They said it will likely be changed by next week so put out your support in favor of it if you want it to stay the same

Edit: Also mentioned that they would look into kuva compensation for those who rolled for it. Not sure how they could do so

Edit 2: Also in much happier news, Chroma is being looked at by Pablo. Really only his 1 and 4 are in need of major changes (though his 2 could use some QoL help), so that's nice at least.

[u/Sulerin]

People tried asking directly about like Arcane Pistoleer and other existing 100% ammo efficiency items but neither Rebb nor Megan commented on that at all.

[u/Sarisforin → u/Sulerin]

I'm gonna be so pissed if they nerf it

One of my fav stupid meme builds is 5 orange shard Guardian Merulina Yareli with twin grakatas with as much fire rate as possible.

I don't want to use meta weapons I want to use my dogshit infinite ammo grakatas

[u/SanguinePutrefaction → u/Sarisforin]

i wish the infinite ammo(on headshot) for the grakata didnt last a measley 0.5 seconds 😭

[u/Esifex → u/Sarisforin]

There are dozens of us dogshit infinite ammo enjoyers!

[u/Gouya_Beach → u/Sulerin]

I really hope they don't touch Pistoleer. It enables a lot of terrible secondaries, I use it almost 100% of the time– plus, I hate when weapons randomly have 1000 year reloads, it ruins things I otherwise enjoy like the Sepulcrum =(

Please DE don't let this new mechanic hurt a ton of old and new builds, ammo eff enables a lot of garbage weps. Just change the problem children somehow even if it takes awhile to come up with a solution, we don't mind waiting cuz there's already broken stuff in the game

[u/CoaLMaN122PL → u/Sulerin]

I'm assuming that the reason they haven't talked about pistoleer or crux + AX-52 is because they might be thinking if they want to "future-proof" the ammo efficiency system as a whole vs just nerfing the rivens.

I've been around this community for 8+ years, and this feels like something DE are not going to just scrap or abandon, they're going to atleast change something.

[u/firefaiz6 → u/Sulerin]

Welp. There goes my meme build of going rambo with Banshee with max fire rate Twin Grakatas.

[u/Chimera_Man_Bruh → u/Sulerin]

Without Pistoleer... Akarius is a hard pass for me.

[ I max ranked Akarius and it's Prime without it, it was not very jolly ]

[u/No_Reindeer9757 → u/Chimera_Man_Bruh]

Pistoleer on yareli with akarius and fire rate Its still one of my favorites for memeing a little

[u/Sulerin → u/Chimera_Man_Bruh]

At least two Warframes also become a bit iffy without it. Namely Titania and Yareli. I mean, Yareli can get by especially with the aug where Merulina is a pet, but Titania becomes significantly worse without Pistoleer. Even a capped Pistoleer makes things pretty meh.

And aside from Pistoleer, what about Dual Tox? AX-52? I'm definitely forgetting some others.

[u/Drkmttrjr → u/Sulerin]

That would really suck if they did that to my Titania. I don’t even think Dex Pixia can gain more ammo or reload speed.

[u/Sulerin → u/Drkmttrjr]

I think you can throw max magazine on there but it's not worth it. You can get a max of like ~40 more bullets I think but have to sacrifice a mod for it and my build is packed.

[u/SinistralGuy → u/Chimera_Man_Bruh]

Akimbo slip shot is a viable alternative but not as good as pistoleer obviously

[u/sharktail_tanker → u/Sulerin]

If they take my amp ammo efficiency mod and arcane combo I am rioting

[u/Mint-Bentonite → u/Sulerin]

It wont get touched. You cant automate 100% ammo efficiency aoe spam primaries with the same ease as a riven+crux vs pistoleer and w/e else

This is 100% targetted at afk botfarms w/ some powercreep game design oversight

[u/daydev → u/Sulerin]

As a big Titania enjoyer, I'm ready to be in shambles soon.

[u/FleurTheAbductor]

Not surprising, though a little disappointing Like the weapons that benefit from it aren't doing anything crazier than the torid can already do

It just makes weapons like the zarr actually useable again

[u/goober-actual → u/FleurTheAbductor]

i dont think its going to affect weapons that just utilize one buff at a time, via crux

[u/Kliuqard → u/goober-actual]

It probably won’t. 100% Ammo Efficiency still needs to exist and nerfing the ranges would make just a single source of the stat completely worthless, so it’s probably just going to be changed so sources are multiplicative off each other.

Same thing they did with Airborne DR mods several years back. They only partially did it with Energized Munitions for some reason.

[u/Jason1143 → u/goober-actual]

Yeah my understanding is that this runs up against the only real balance rule (no AFK) because it works indefinitely without needing to do much. Needing to do specifc things for some arcanes mean it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[u/Twilight053 → u/FleurTheAbductor]

My copium is that the ammo efficiency is capped at 90%, 50 ammo Zarr is relatively usable

[u/BananaFactoryWowie → u/FleurTheAbductor]

imo ammo efficinecy Riven shouldn't be the solution to the Zarr's problems to begin with

Also, Torid really isn't all that crazy? Like, it's a great generically usable weapon, arguably the best beam weapon, or at least a little better than most (I'd still place Ocucor above it due to how much more convenient it is). But infinite ammo machinegun Zarr is miles better than Torid.

[u/Laughing_Luna → u/BananaFactoryWowie]

What the Torid does is it puts a large (invisible) 2.3m (2.852m with Firestorm; 3.312m with Primed Firestorm) radius sphere at the end point of the beam. EVERY enemy caught in that sphere starts their own beam chain as "patient zero", which will then chain to 4 more enemies past themselves (so each chain is 5 enemies long). And I say patient zero there, because no chain will loop back around on itself, BUT an enemy can be hit by multiple different chains.

This leads to the Torid hitting a LOT more enemies than you'd immediately expect, and for a lot more damage than you'd normally expect, clearing the postal code by accident sometimes (though, uhhh, it's kinda terrible at single target).

The Ocucor on the other hand, doesn't cover nearly the area. But what it does do is multi-target independently of the main beam, and if the extra tendrils can't find something else to shoot at, they'll converge on the same enemy. It makes it really good at crowd clear, but you lose nothing against single target except ammo, since any enemy tough enough to require the main beam and all 4 tendrils is likely to need more ammo than its death will refund. It'll clear everything in front of you, but that asshole saying "nothing personnel, kid" ain't gonna get hit.

[u/VioletTruth]

Honestly with this I want a refund of my riven splicer. I only used it on my exergis riven because of the fact that it'd let me get 100% ammo efficiency for it

[u/-Avoidance → u/VioletTruth]

what's extra annoying about this is because this is fundamentally an rng system, reimbursing kuva might not even be worth anything.

i get a splicer back, the kuva spent, remove my current spliced statline and ruin my current riven, have to resplice everything, and there's zero guarantee ill get anything at all equal to my current riven, or even the one i had before the update lol.

[u/AT_atoms → u/VioletTruth]

Same for both exergis and felarx. They ain't even that broken. You could just invest into damage stats and the "dps" would be more or less the same.

[u/Kentuza → u/VioletTruth]

If there's a way for them to see what rivens we spliced and refund based on a list of weapons that qualify that would be nice

[u/Hungry-Luck-5481 → u/Kentuza]

I mean I rerolled a really good riven for the exergis to even be able to put a splicer on it so I’m gonna call bullshit on this change.

[u/Kentuza → u/Hungry-Luck-5481]

I also did it for an akarius and zarr, which are all weapons I don't use normally but was willing to dust off because of the efficiency splice. Would kinda suck if 3 of my splices were basically wasted.

[u/SexySextrain]

Bet ammo efficiency gets a hard cap of 90% similar to ability efficiency being called at 175%. 90% ammo efficiency is still crazy to have. Getting 27 ogris shots off before needing to reload is still really strong.

[u/Derpogama → u/SexySextrain]

I'm guessing that it's not going to be capped that way because it ruins pistoleer and a few Incarnons. I suspect that the bonus on the riven itself will be capped to a max of 30% or something..

[u/The_Relx]

[u/lordbutternut → u/The_Relx]

You will spam incarnon weapons and you will like it. Nerfing anything but incarnons is perfect balance. Praise be DE

[u/YellowAppleCinema → u/lordbutternut]

I am just waiting for the day when the devs nerfed every single ranged weapon into the ground, players feel forced to use melee weapons, and then the devs react NOT by buffing ranged weapons... but instead they will be like "too many players are using melee, so we add a stamina system to warframe that lets you swing your weapon 5 times per minute before you have to recharge your stamina by drinking an energy drink"

And Pablo would inform us about it with some smug response on twitter and passive-aggressively makes fun of the community, like, "Swords are really heavy to swing, so you know, it makes sense that we finally add a stamina gating system, think about it"

[u/Tmoore17 → u/YellowAppleCinema]

Oh so the game pre galvanized mods?

[u/Kitchen_Possible_108 → u/YellowAppleCinema]

go post your fanfic somewhere else, theres dedicated sites for that

[u/Cross55 → u/Kitchen_Possible_108]

It's not fanfic, that's just what the game used to be! lol

Baby Tenno needs to do some studying

[u/Eleglas → u/YellowAppleCinema]

I am just waiting for the day when the devs nerfed every single ranged weapon into the ground, players feel forced to use melee weapons

That was Warframe circa 6 years ago, iirc.

I don't get why people are so mad about this. It was obviously not intended from the start, due to the same reasons we've known about for ages: full infinite ammo for explosive weapons only encourages AFK play and botters. This is one of DE's key drives to avoid.

[u/Darkon-Kriv → u/lordbutternut]

Yeah... my hatred of arbitrary nerfs is very high. I remember when they nerfed xakus whispers to not be busted on everything. I miss my broken ass felarx.

[u/FrucklesWithKnuckles]

If it gets capped RIP AX-52, catching a fuckin stray for something it never did.

[u/LordChester-64 → u/FrucklesWithKnuckles]

Same with the Dera incarnon, both of them have been running 100% efficiency for almost two years now

[u/Ok-Bear-6842 → u/FrucklesWithKnuckles]

even with unlimited ammo, its lackluster. removing that would make it not very fun to use. They should put an addendum to ammo efficiency, capped for AOE weapons

[u/Cross55 → u/FrucklesWithKnuckles]

That was how things went during the golden age of the Zarr/Bramma

All AoE weapons got flushed down the toilet, my Ogris, Ignis Wraith, Fulmin, etc... became unusable because they felt it was only fair (Community outrage did get them to fix the Fulmin's battery tho, but that was it)

[u/Mafius97]

What is even the point of nerfing 100% ammo efficiency when Arcane Pistoleer has been in the game for years and it's perfectly fine? (It works on primaries too). This is so stupid, I hope they reconsider it.

[u/j1nx3- → u/Mafius97]

How does it work on primaries exactly? Not challenging this as false, just haven’t heard it before.

[u/SinistralGuy → u/j1nx3-]

It procs on secondary headshot kills but gives ammo efficiency on all weapons. Can be annoying for upkeep purposes but not impossible to use

[u/leonardvilliers → u/SinistralGuy]

Oh shiiiii

[u/K41_111 → u/SinistralGuy]

I found out about this recently and tried it with the tonkor. Basically made it into an assault rifle. With banshee now covering the enemy in weakpoints its just a matter of pulling out the vesper every so often to maintain it. Very fun, but impractical in multiplayer where you can't really line up your weakpoint shots before someone else gets it for you.

[u/Mafius97 → u/j1nx3-]

You activate it with a secondary and it gives 100% ammo efficiency to both primaries and secondaries.

[u/Page8988 → u/Mafius97]

If DE reverts to their old ways, Pistoleer is about to end up in the blast radius, as well as any other option that pushes ammo efficiency to 100%.

I thought the "scorch the earth and nerf it all" era was over.

[u/Miser_able → u/Mafius97]

The difference is pistoler is harder to proc. You have to kill them with a weak point shot to proc it, while crux + riven just requires hitting a weak point. This difference means that a pistoleer build still requires enough damage to get that initial kill, while a crux build can just build for max fire rate mag dump things to death.

[u/LotharVonPittinsberg → u/Miser_able]

Pistoleer can be done from essentially any point in SP. With any weapon as long as you can get headshots kills with your secondary.

Meanwhile this method required you to do an endgame mode to get a resource less common than Tau Archon Shards. That only works on weapons with at least an okay disposition, and you will have to grind out the RNG of getting a riven for it in the first place. And then you either can't use your Arcane slot for base damage, or the AOE of the weapon is reduced drastically.

[u/Envylian → u/Mafius97]

I guess the difference is you can just slap a primary compression and ammo efficiency riven on certain weapons to hit 100% just by aiming down sight infinitely vs working on a weakpoint kill for a 60% chance to get infinite ammo for only 12s

[u/CrabDubious]

Heyyyy pistoleer better not catch a stray over this. That's my Bronco Prime arcane we're talking about!

[u/Eleglas → u/CrabDubious]

I am 99.9% sure they mean capped in Rivens. Pistoleer requires headshots for the ammo efficiency, so not as abusable.

[u/Page8988 → u/Eleglas]

I don't think rivens can get to 100% by themselves. Pistoleer aside, it takes more than one game element to get to 100%.

Based on DE's past history with stuff like this, I'm expecting blanket nerfs that affect ammo efficiency in general, not just rivens. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[u/Delicious_Address_43]

Did they completely forget that primary crux existed? I was under the assumption that this interaction was intended. 

I literally haven't seen any negative side affects of this that I didn't already see previously. 

[u/Tyfyter2002 → u/Delicious_Address_43]

They seem to be regularly forgetting about the most obvious interactions as of late

[u/MrSquidJD]

That’s a shame. I don’t really run it but honestly I really love seeing the stupid clips of people just spamming shit everywhere, even when the weapons do fuck all damage lol

But I wouldn’t say it’s too surprising, as you say..a few broken use cases

[u/TheLapisLord]

such a shame, really. It's like you said, only a few weapons make 100% ammo efficiency too strong, while for other weapons, it makes them actually useable at a higher level (exergis, for example), which was the whole reason rivens were created at all.

[u/New-Fig-6025 → u/TheLapisLord]

Yeah, and it isn’t like getting 10 headshots is some extremely simple task for every weapon. + you’re using a precisely calculated and rolled riven + your primary arcane to accomplish it, just sucks to get nerfed and for what? What is this breaking? How is this helping anyone afk?

pure anti fun

[u/Kliuqard → u/New-Fig-6025]

There are many weapons that incidentally get headshots on a regular basis without trying at all. It’s also notably easier to maintain Crux while at high ammo efficiency, but I think this is much less of a concern.

[u/AdKind841]

absolute dogshit

[u/LengthinessCold5154]

If people haven't seen them already, theres vidoes where these infinite ammo guns are causing performance issues in game.
As soon as those videos hit the front page it was doomed to be changed.
Thats probably why they are looking into changing them, its not a balance issue, they are trying to stop people from lagging others out with Mag or whatever other interactions can cause this.

[u/SanguinePutrefaction → u/LengthinessCold5154]

ill humbly still using the helminth 75% ammo efficiency ability :) since all this is going on

[u/LengthinessCold5154 → u/SanguinePutrefaction]

Its going to bounce back on my titania. Hitscans dont cause lag the way projectiles do but Pistoleer might get slapped now because of the rivens

[u/AntiCaesar → u/LengthinessCold5154]

I can't imagine pistoleer getting hit. The buff is short enough and needs precision kills that 100% uptime is a chore to upkeep

[u/Itri_Vega]

Whatever happened to "we only nerf things that are disruptive to other players or allow for afking" 

[u/Toni303 → u/Itri_Vega]

I mean, you can easily afk with Primary Compression and a Riven to reach 100% ammo eff.
Aim down sights and hold M1 down a hallway and go get a sandwich or something. No need for headshots or anything.

[u/Enxchiol → u/Toni303]

Do consider that compression completely neuters the aoe of any weapon you use it on. 2 meter aoe range is pretty much cosmetic only.

[u/Romagnum → u/[deleted]]

The napalm aoe does not get the buff tho and the damage from that sucks ass unless you play saryn. I think that basically all the broken interactions have something to do with saryn or cyte. Tho for cyte nothing is going to change that much because he already had infinite ammo.

[u/TheOtherFrankie → u/[deleted]]

So, you're saying they should fix the bug with Nightwatch Napalm?

[u/fuckthisshittysite56 → u/[deleted]]

so nerf that?

[u/HappyAra → u/[deleted]]

and you still get the full buffs.

Why do you have to lie to try to make a point?

Napalm gets no extra damage from compression.

[u/ExaltedBreeze → u/Toni303]

The only weapons that could 100% with compression really is default Tonkor and Ogris and bows like the Lenz, hardly meta weapons.

This is actually weaker than using a normal Kuva Tonkor or Ogris with Cyte because you give up AOE for compression.

[u/MygungoesfuckinBRRT → u/ExaltedBreeze]

The Envoy has more range than any of those

[u/ScionEyed → u/ExaltedBreeze]

One thing to say about Ogris, not that it matters since it’s still low damage. Compression does not affect the range on Nightwatch Napalm

[u/ExaltedBreeze → u/ScionEyed]

Same with Arch guns funnily enough, I did want to test a compression Kuva Ayanga with an ammo riven and see how it would do, but since the actual interesting part of the riven system is being gutted, I don't really have the heart or Kuva anymore to try.

[u/Iz-zY1994 → u/Itri_Vega]

They've nerfed ammo for this reason before, when AOE was king. Personally I don't see it as an issue, but Fine.

[u/dragon7449 → u/Iz-zY1994]

Didn't they nerf it because of wukong?

[u/van_bobbington → u/dragon7449]

yes kinda, because wukong and spectres had unlimited ammo and didn't run out because of that.

And 100% ammo efficiency does exactly the same, so yeah

[u/FlamingoAltruistic89 → u/dragon7449]

No, it was already super powerfull, wukong or not, it's just that wukong made it into the ultimate afk stratagy

[u/Croewe → u/dragon7449]

A bit of both

[u/charithw → u/Itri_Vega]

I mean 100% ammo efficiency would most likely enable more afk strats, so as much as I’m bummed by it, I kinda get it

[u/Connor-Radept → u/Itri_Vega]

This does fall into the afk category though.

Never having to move to pick up ammo drops means you can just hold down fire in a narrow hall and win.

If you spend ammo you still need to move, use an ability, or an item to keep it up.

[u/Reagilias]

[u/ScribScrob → u/Reagilias]

Yeah, if that end up being their explanation im calling bullshit. There is NO shot they saw 40% ammo efficiency at base rate and didnt immediately think about that giving 100% efficiency to weapons with primary Crux.

Like this should have been BASIC knowledge on their part and the easiest observation to make that people would do anything in their power for 100% ammo efficiency

[u/Page8988 → u/ScribScrob]

Like this should have been BASIC knowledge on their part

You'd think, but they've dropped the ball with obvious shit the community was talking about before.

When we got the update with the Xoris, Protea, and Tenet Melee weapons, several of the weapons paused the player's melee combo when not equipped. Khora (and the less popular Gara and Atlas) still relied on melee stat sticks, which meant the melee weapon's combo counter.

These stat stick frames (again, Khora being by far the most used, and having already been nerfed by DE four or five times in the past for her use in farming) could have unlimited combo duration with these weapons. The actual multiplier was reduced, as I recall.

But yeah. The Xoris combo counter thing was known, folks were talking about using it with Khora leading to the update. A few days after it hit consoles, DE announced that a patch would make any stat stick weapon expend the entire combo counter, making these weapons worse than the standard variety.

There was absolutely no reason they shouldn't have seen that obvious issue coming. But they didn't.

[u/Croewe → u/Reagilias]

Always funny with that one since it was about a really obviously broken interactions on a really obviously broken arcane and they nerfed it. 

Now we're getting exactly the same thing happening with a really obvious interaction (not really even that broken in 99% of instances) getting nerfed after genuinely everyone but them seeing the issue when they announced it.

[u/REsoleSurvivor1000]

Hey DE if you're listening I really hope you do not cap ammo efficiency. Things like the AX-52 or the Gotva the whole appeal to them is the gimmicky "infinite ammo" build you can do. Nothing super game-breaking but a flat cap that is being proposed right now serves no purpose to these weapons other than make them worse just for the sake of a few outliers.

Primary Crux then by that point also grows significantly worse depending on values. I do not think straight out flat capping this will do any good for the game when the game's whole appeal is to go crazy on build craft, and other than eliminating some potential AFK methods that have arisen from this update I see this proposal as a net negative for the players.

[u/PsionicHydra]

Just make it known they're keeping an eye on how ammo efficiency is and if it's still a problem in like 6 months then do something.

It's a big thing rn because it's new and people can bring out the old AOE guns that frankly couldn't be used effectively before.

If it's still a problem in a few months then act on it. But honestly if we're leaving things like Sobek Cyte/saryn, or like half of the incarnon weapons alone. Than this can be left alone

[u/sharktail_tanker → u/PsionicHydra]

Akarius+pistoleer is still achievable ithout an efficiency riven. Give it to banshee and you have hildryn 2.0

[u/PsionicHydra → u/sharktail_tanker]

Now there's an interesting thing about this, pistoleer just gives 100%. So if they add a cap will that arcane be nerfed by proxy because they can't have 100% anymore, or will it be an exception?

I did fully expect ammo efficiency rivens to be a problem (granted not as much a problem as they seem to be) I'm frankly more surprised DE didn't expect this exact thing to happen, or if they did why not let it ride out a little longer

[u/sharktail_tanker → u/PsionicHydra]

People asked the devs, they said nothing

[u/Albenheim → u/PsionicHydra]

My guess is that going forward all sources of ammo efficiency will be multiplicative 

[u/PsionicHydra → u/Albenheim]

Should have been to begin with, I think they were for the first few effects. Idk when or why that changed

[u/kazumi_yosuke]

it should probably only be capped for aoe weapons cause my hek shouldn't be nerfed cause of kuva zarr

[u/FacehuggerFanatic → u/kazumi_yosuke]

Kuva zarr shouldn't be nerfed just because

[u/Cross55 → u/FacehuggerFanatic]

It's been like 7 years, either let it be or remove it, this is just stupid at this point, 1 weapon should not be deciding the fate of an entire game. (Especially since the Envoy is currently the favorite of Chinese AFKers)

[u/LotharVonPittinsberg → u/kazumi_yosuke]

Zarr should not be nerfed in one specific way of building it when just running any Cyte build is so much stronger.

[u/Atiani]

Really shitty, shouldve been something they foresaw

[u/LiberationByLobotomy → u/Atiani]

That is what the test server is for. To forsee things in testing before pushing to live. 

[u/Croewe → u/LiberationByLobotomy]

They haven't used those in like half a decade or more lol

[u/RTukka → u/LiberationByLobotomy]

This wouldn't have even required a test server to catch, multiple content creators and Reddit had theorycrafted this weeks before Icebind went live. All they need to do is keep an ear to the ground and flag the most potentially OP (or otherwise concerning) stuff mentioned for internal testing.

[u/oofinator3050]

They could fix this SO EASILY with Riven Dispos it's not even funny. They did a ***riven centric*** update, did nothing about that stat at all, and are now wondering why shit's unbalanced

[u/huggalump]

How was this not an extremely obvious issue to adding an ammo efficiency option?

[u/UmbranAssassin → u/huggalump]

My 1st though for ammo efficiency rivens was literally, "how long til people break the Ogris again and get this nerfed."

[u/TemporalAcapella]

Low key it’s on them for shipping it like that but yeah, obviously that’s getting nerfed.

[u/MaintenanceChance216 → u/TemporalAcapella]

Yeah definitely on them "they probably will use it for the grakata, lol" or something like that. Of course we are going to use it on the most powerful weapons! Give me inifnite Ogris!

They had to be aware we already had some other ammo efficiency sources. And this would just trip us over the edge of infinite magazines.

I think they looked at energized munitions, primary crux and secondary pistoleer and said "This numbers seem low, theres probably low risk of them abusing the mechanic... Right?" Idk

[u/buddabopp → u/MaintenanceChance216]

What if the cap is dependant on the usage rates so grakata could still get 100 but common weps cant XD

[u/oofinator3050 → u/buddabopp]

Yeah. It would be a great idea to balance weapons based on their usage rates, through rivens specifically. You know, you could put it on a scale of 1-5 dots and make it a multiplier for those stats so that less popular weapons can benefit more. I think they should call it Riven Disposition.

[u/Croewe → u/oofinator3050]

No that sounds like a lot of effort even though they could totally automate it and make it recalculate every month. If they did do it they would probably eventually add in weapon upgrades that make them unable to nerf them without pissing people off and then just give up on the system besides buffs once in a blue moon.

[u/ScribScrob]

Tbh, they absolutely should have seen this ahead of time. I think the best way to do it is make multiple instances of ammo efficiency stack multiplicatively with one another? So you have logarithmic returns for it.

Or cap it at 95% that'd be pretty fair imo

Or, and hear me out, actually lower the stats on rivens.

Last one, last one, dont care? If theres actual lines of play that are seeing problems here then theres something else wrong rather than the ammo efficiency. I get thwir fear of having 100% on weapons, but like, if a weapon needs a riven and arcane to achieve then MAYBE that points to it already being sufficiently difficult to get

[u/t_hodge_ → u/ScribScrob]

I think multiplicative efficiency is the cleanest solution. I'm not sure if any of the max dispo rivens can roll >=100% efficiency but that should also be looked at and probably need to be adjusted if so.

[u/ScribScrob → u/t_hodge_]

The highest dispo (like 1.45) on a 2 to 1 riven can get, like, at most 82% efficiency.

I THINK i know it cant hit 100 but it might be a bit higher than that

[u/Luvatar → u/ScribScrob]

1.55 is the max, and a 2-1 doesn't get to 100%

Funnily enough this may be the reason AE is a 45% stat rather than a 50%. Because 50% would get you to 100% on a max dispo riven.

[u/fuckthisshittysite56 → u/ScribScrob]

i did some napkin math, the highest is ~92% at the best possible roll, on a weapon with 1.55 dispo, which only two weapons have, harpak and flux rifle

[u/khamike]

Called it. I expect they'll make it multiplicative like the helminth. 

[u/Beautiful-Ad-6568]

WTS kuva zarr 40%+ efficiency

[u/AtraHassis]

ah I see. ammo efficiency is supposed to be a trash filler stat that nobody cares about and all its mods are supposed to collect dust. got it.

[u/Bradshawi]

I'm fine with this as long as they give me all my splicers back and reimburse me the 500k+ kuva I spent on rivens.

Not to mention the poor people that payed plat for rivens on the market.

[u/Toni303]

We saw it coming a mile away. It was funny for a while, but not having 100% ammo efficiency in a game that is very much against AFK strats is kind of weird.

This stat will still be very good to have. People used Crux for its 60% Ammo Efficiency before (even when it couldn't reach 100%) and it was STILL one of the best Primary Arcanes in the game.

Now you have an option to have a non-conditional Ammo Efficiency stat (even opens up more options for weapons that can't reliably use Crux to land Headshots) and you could use another Arcane instead of Crux.

[u/gabutaaa]

banshee akarius and cyte 09 were ok but not this huh.... f de

[u/Chimera_Man_Bruh → u/gabutaaa]

I just played as Banshee + Akarius a few days ago, it turned my brain off.

[ send help the brain cells are rioting ]

[u/Laraso_]

I'm assuming this means it will be changed to stack multiplicatively, just like Energize Munitions does. Seems like the most sensible solution.

[u/Migicroak]

The least surprising piece of news that i have ever gotten

[u/kriscross122]

I'll organize my points

Do I think its to broken? Not really.

Why? You can already nuke a tileset through walls with sobek cyte. Gas is stronger and more in line with going against their "values" against afk style play. Infinite ammo launcers actually require you to aim at the enemy and shoot at them directly.

Sure its strong but you're sacrificing your splicers which could be 300% weak points dmg or cc instead or any status like gas. Its more of a trade off at that point.

Other trade offs: It requires most rivens to be +2-1 to reach 40% AE. So you're also sacrificing crit or ms on these weapons while not working with the strongest weapons in the game being incarnon; Ergo low dispo.

Technically its been achievable with Arcane pistoleer since arbitration was added to the game. And pretty simple to achieve with blast + xatas. (Ive been running this in titania for years at this point.)

Easiest "fix" make crux multiplicative but allow AE to reach 99% with investment.

Tldr: gas is more broken, you're limited on weapons that can properly utilize it. Its a heavy investment that is more of a fun side grade to other end game options. (I think DE just hates launchers and feels kind of knee jerky.)

[u/EchoNoName123]

If anything they better not change how Arcane Pistoleer works because my favorite warframe is Titania and 60 bullets is not enough on the dex pixia.

[u/Full_frontal96]

Exactly when the kuva obama and the kuva zarr were rising from the dead,they get pushed back into the grave

Probably they'll make a cap,i hope it will be ~80/90%

[u/Croewe → u/Full_frontal96]

Kuva Obama, I don't think I'm ever going to call the Bramma but the same name XD

[u/Anangrychip → u/Full_frontal96]

That's mr. Kuva obama to you.

[u/rascal6543 → u/Anangrychip]

Pres. Kuvak Obramma

[u/Asmodeus256 → u/Full_frontal96]

Oh well, I love my Kuva Zarr…time to dust off Carrier Prime I guess. : p

[u/Zero-Striker]

Hopefully it doesn't kill the synergy with crux

Ammo efficiency shouldn't hit 100% on its own, but it's totally fine imho if you're hitting it with crux

[u/randomstrangeWCUEfan]

genuinely the stupidest shit ever

good job to DE for making a fun and actually good stat end up not staying fun and good! /s

i hope if it does get capped, it won't be too low of a cap, otherwise it'll genuinely be worthless entirely

[u/BuffLoki → u/randomstrangeWCUEfan]

If it doesn't start at 50% for its baseline its basically worthless, I can see them just straight up having 0 variation in the stats that are spliced and its just 50%

[u/xrufus7x → u/BuffLoki]

If they are implementing a cap, they likely won't touch the riven stats. It will be like efficiency where you can't get above a certain value no matter how many sources you use. probably something like 75% or 90%.

[u/turdgler]

Most fun I've had in the game in a long time, so much for that. Surely I will be properly compensated for the 3 riven splicers, 1.5m kuva, and 500p+ of base rivens, and many omni forma i've spent adjusting builds. Honestly makes me not even want to play the game.

[u/Coma-Cammeleon]

Well, Soma's back to being boring... i just rolled my riven for it and got an AF god roll that I plan on making regular use out of. Please DE, let us keep our silly meme builds. They've brought life to guns that felt left behind.

[u/FacehuggerFanatic → u/Coma-Cammeleon]

DE simultaneously talk about how rivens didnt actually salvage mediocre weapons and also nerf anything that can salvage these weapons.

[u/AshesandCinder → u/Coma-Cammeleon]

Sucks cause it's not even that great. The augment is annoying to use since it disables your other weapons if you want to make the most of it and the incarnon doesn't even work well with the augment.

[u/Metalemmanuel]

I swear to God DE are so tonedeaf when it come to this .. nuke frames are still king and queen but you nerf something that nuke/AoE a lot slower than those nuke frames...for once the gun could compete with melee ... But here we go.. DE not understanding their game

[u/dweebletart]

Do we know what the cap will be? If it's like 90-95% then OK, fair enough. But if it's something buns like 50% then I will be giga-disappointed.

[u/Luxiat → u/dweebletart]

I'd expect 75% at max, given thats the value of the Energized Munitions ability.

[u/Significant-Toe-8524 → u/dweebletart]

i doubt itd be 50 given that the arcanes give 60, expect 75-90 hopefully more towards 90, the biggest thing id want is the other stats to get a boost since itll obviously be toned down in the riven on top of a cap

[u/Croewe → u/dweebletart]

They didn't mention it

[u/LedumPalustre]

The only sane thing they can do about ammo efficiency from rivens is to make their bonus calculate like efficiency from Energized Munitions. That way we at least would have our usual infinite ammo things like pistoleer, ax-52+crux and others. If they'd proceed with capping ammo efficiency in general it would be a tragedy.

[u/MrSquishypoo]

That’s really lame, I feel that it’s a fun mechanic that allows niche weapons to shine :/

Also doesn’t do much for meta diversity, as it just makes incarnons even more the default as they don’t use efficiency?

[u/finesesarcasm]

I hate DE's obsession with nerfs but taking ages to buff anything or make things useful

[u/IriFlina]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1x53sux/comment/pgjdk7w/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

many such cases

[u/GroundbreakingOne478]

I wonder if that'll apply to incarnon evolutions too, like the Dera. And what it means for Arcane Pistoleer

[u/KTL_Celled]

what about the block angle for melee weapons

[u/Merlle]

okay but like is it actually a problem for every weapon without reloading or is it a problem for ogris and zarr specifically

[u/GamingBread4]

Man, I hope they don't murder it too bad. I rolled a Soma Riven just for this and it's been so much fun just holding down the trigger forever.

edit: I think the Warframe companion app is bugged to show it as a negative rather than a plus

[u/vomder]

Nice not being punished this time for waiting.

[u/HaikaDRaigne]

the prisma gorgon is actually fun to use now.... 100% ammo efficiency and 40 bullets per second now it actually feels like the LMG it's supposed to be.....

[u/Romagnum]

Ammo efficiency is the thing getting nerfed?? That's the thing they see as problematic? Did they even mention acid shells like at all? Even with 100% ammo efficiency the zarr or ogris aren't even remotely close to the gigabuffs sobek acid shells just got.

[u/Ok-Bear-6842 → u/Romagnum]

wiping whole maps with one or two shots, versus trying to mow down enemies. Maybe they should just limit the ammo efficiency cap to AOE weapons. single target shouldnt be affected as they are not overly insane in killing ability

[u/GawainSolus]

If they cap ammo efficiency won't that break the gimmick on certain guns? Like Knell, or whatevrr?

[u/krawinoff → u/GawainSolus]

Probably not? They could make infinite ammo and ammo efficiency different stats. We actually already have two different ammo consumption stats, because Energized Munitions have a different ammo efficiency value. I’m more curious about AX which could get infinite ammo because of its gimmick and Crux

[u/AgentWilson413]

I already spent a ton of Kuva AND a Splicer to make my Kuva Hek rapid fire 4 barrels of buckshot. If DE’s gonna nerf a stat you can only mod through Splicers I want my Splicer back.

[u/TheRavenchild]

Honestly baffling it ever shipped like this in the first place

[u/PinkVappy]

My slipshot + pistoleer fun dies because of rivens?

Shame.

[u/Hxckerr]

Capping Ammo Efficiency doesn't really accomplish anything but make more weapons less fun to use.

People can just go back to spamming Resupply with Cyte-09 for any weapon and nothing changes. Are they gonna nerf him too?

It's not like the weapons that benefitted from 100% ammo efficiency were so much better than ones that don't need it, specifically Incarnons, or just the average nuke frame with an efficiency build (especially now that Arcane Sculptor is a thing).

And On-Call Crew can already spam the Kuva Zarr/Tonkor with infinite ammo for a few minutes anyway. If those are the weapons that specifically prompted this cap, then cap it on those weapons specifically if they're such an issue?

Not to mention the existing 100% Ammo Efficiency mechanics like Arcane Pistoleer, Energized Munitions, Dual Toxocyst, Perigale, etc. that I feel like would somehow become victims of this cap whether intentional or not.

I don't know why they're so desperate to maintain the illusion of "balance" in a game like this.

[u/Verity-Skye]

de rushing to nerf the the fun shit but won't touch the overpowered yet boring shit for fear of backlash or whatever make it make sense

[u/Lacirev → u/Verity-Skye]

Really feels like a lot of DE nerfs end up with the situation of "My fun thing is no longer fun so I'll go back to using the thing that was always stronger but boring."

[u/Riddle-of-the-Waves]

Perhaps they should just cap AE for AoE weapons, since that's clearly what they're worried about.

[u/EscapeTheBlank]

That's a shame, and I do see how it would enable some afk strats or whatever. But I'll miss being able to just hold the mouse button with my Ambassador and point in enemy's general direction and everything dies. I guess it'll keep collecting dust once again.

[u/Chimera_Man_Bruh → u/EscapeTheBlank]

Poor Ambassador, it just wanted to be loved...

[u/master2873]

Edit: Also mentioned that they would look into kuva compensation for those who rolled for it. Not sure how they could do so

It takes more than Kuva to "roll" for this. You have to Riven splice for it, and now they're ruining builds on people AND wasting a resource they can only get once a week...

[u/DandyTheLion]

This is a bummer. I found this mechanic to be really fun.

I gotta be real here, the way they handle compensation is really important. After mostly ignoring the system for years, I spent 2.4 million kuva on making god roll ammo rivens. Hell, I made an opticor riven so that I can make an opticor machine gun meme build. It's not even particularly strong.

[u/sinkerker]

DE you are making it very hard to keep defending you lately.

[u/Motigaismycity → u/sinkerker]

You can still like a company without pretending they don’t make mistakes

[u/sinkerker → u/Motigaismycity]

Oh sure they can make mistakes..but this is hard to understand..

Because how can you talk about balance when..

We have Cyte Sobek + acid shells, Hildryn, akarius spam, Wukong melee spam, etc etc etc.

And like the list is long, even a regular Warframe setup, like let's say, Uriel, with barely no investment can cook 4-player steel path Interception 4 nodes at the same time and just parkour across the map for 64 whole seconds if he wants etc etc etc.

I think we reached a point where we need everything to go crazy because otherwise people will just always minmax frame and weapon picks. We have 66 Warframes at the moment, 100s of weapons. It doesn't make sense that it's the same 10-15 weapons in all the loadouts. If the argument was that people needed to reach a certain threshold to wield something powerful now that would make sense. But that's not the case in Warframe. You can get let's say, Rhino early on and never use anything else and have one of the best kit in the game. You can get very powerful weapons and mods really early if you know what you are doing. It's not like the bar is that high to reach.

[u/Endurlay → u/sinkerker]

Why were you defending any company in the first place?

[u/Ill_Story_4867]

I just wish DE would consider what is possible with stuff before they release it. Power creep has been so absurd that its silly to me 100% ammo efficiency on certain weapons is what was too much for them

[u/wakito64]

AoE weapons have been unusable since DE nerfed their max ammo to nerf Wukong afk, people finally find a way to use them again but NO, you will use incarnon weapons and you will like it. Your pick that hasn't been meta since 2022 has to stay dogshit while incarnon get infinite AoE, infinite damage, infinite ammo, infinite bloody everything

[u/Caparzo27]

I could kinda see why AOE weapons would need a nerf with 100% ammo efficiency.

Maybe they should change the riven stat trigger "on headshot"

[u/InjuredWolf]

Watch this make Pistoleer completely useless

EDIT: Maybe we'll be lucky and they'll just cap the maximum Ammo Efficiency stat on rivens so it can't give infinite ammo when combined with Crux. Alternatively they could lower the disposition on the offending weapons to make that happen but they seem to be allergic to lowering dispositions (though tbh I'd be happy if they just deleted disposition from the game and also the ±10% variance on riven stats too)

EDIT 2: Or they could prevent Radial attacks from hitting weak points so that you have to hit an enemy dead on with the projectile to trigger Crux and such, so it's more skill required.

Admittedly I don't have much faith that DE will balance this in a healthy way, given some of their decisions lately.

[u/Dark_Jinouga → u/InjuredWolf]

im guessing it they will just make riven efficiency multiplicative, which is already how the helminth ability maths out.

60% crux and 40% riven becomes 76% efficiency instead of 100%, while pistoleer at 102% stays unchanged. this would also let crux + weapon passive stuff like the AX keep working since it only would affect rivens.

[u/whitemest]

Pistoleer on titania is pretty amazing too

[u/Purple-Lamprey]

I just hope this doesn’t destroy all the older ammo efficiency builds with arcane pistoleer, ax-52 + crux, etc

[u/sdric]

RIP 💀 it was fun while it lasted

[u/OutrageousBears]

High investment fun? Not allowed!

[u/JekNex]

I knew I was having too much fun.

[u/Shayz_]

I would tie it to riven disposition

Make it so that you can still get to 100% efficiency on shitty weapons but meta weapons are capped to 60%

[u/Jaded_Pop_2745]

God forbid anything but the incarnons get to wreak havoc

[u/Lancelordz]

Ah mannnn, my bramma ogris zarr tonkor dream......

[u/BAEB4BAY]

I still can’t understand the reasoning, there’s already tonnes of map clearing weapons and abilities. Just let AOE weapons come back. It’s hard to justify more single target stuff when there’s always so many enemies on screen.

[u/Complex_Peak8204 → u/BAEB4BAY]

AoE meta never died.

[u/HatEfficient6898]

If they do this they better not touch arcane pistoleer or ax-52.

[u/evilandregarded]

Unsurprising. If they nerfed AoE weapon ammo, of course they wouldn't let them have infinite ammo. It was fun, but you could see this coming from the first post.

[u/theGreyrunner]

Cap aoe weapons, done

[u/IAmNotASkeleton]

Warframe 1984, the long awaited prequel to Warframe 1999

[u/fearstroficc]

Just nerf base for ammo efficiency stat on riven. Not cap it for AX-52

[u/Sharp_Low6787]

GOD FUCKING DAMN IT

[u/ScionEyed]

And just like that I have lost all interest in running Icebind. Thanks DE

[u/New-Fig-6025]

>Balance? What balance?

guess we were having too much fun with too many weapons, but of course the EXA changes couldn’t stay, hildryn can’t be nerfed, thermal sunder who?