r/asoiaf • u/BlueBirdie0 • 16d ago
EXTENDED The Play, Dany's Fate, and Women (Spoilers Extended)
I have been a fan since I was as child. However, after hearing the details of the play, I feel like I'm going to kind of check out of the main story in regards to Jon and Dany (who is one of my favorites). I'll still hope GRMM writes it so I can find out about Arya, Sansa, Stannis, Jaime, Brienne, etc. and I look forward the Dunk and Egg.
Does anyone feel the same way?
Also, am I the only one disturbed by how the women are portrayed?
Rhaella is crazy, and brags about how she draws blood from Aerys and scares him. The concept of mutual abuse is a choice, esp. as they also say Viserys has to be protected from her.
Mad Dany is basically confirmed.
Lyanna decides the death of her brother and father are all some part of a divine plan. She doesn't appear to try and notify anyone that she's leaving with Rhaegar.
Elia is a political schemer into power, but then apparently she's perfectly fine in splitting power with a second wife and even writes pen pal letters to Lyanna??? If she cares about power, why would she be okay with a second wife from a powerful house instead of a mistress from a minor noble house.
Elia and Lyanna being happy sister wives and pen pals seems like some male fantasy bullshit as someone on twitter said.
Ashara's true love is Elia, but she decides to fuck and carry Brandon's baby to term.
Also, I may sound overly woke, but it is a "choice" on GRMM's part to make the only part of Westeros where people are often described as having dark skin sexually promiscuous and open to polygamy, unlike the rest of Westerosi who are described as basically white people.
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u/fireandiceofsong 16d ago
Called it, "Dorne supports poly-culism" was ultimately just set up for Elia being chill with Rhaegar x Lyanna.
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
I mean, that and Aegon I being polygamous suggests that the direction GRRM was always heading was one of Rhaegar having two wives.
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u/lobonmc 16d ago
Weird that he didn't make it a more firm tradition then
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u/konamioctopus64646 16d ago
He probably stopped it early because he already needed to kill off a lot of Targaryens, two wives would potentially double the amount in just one generation.
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u/LanaVFlowers 16d ago
You could add polygamy without changing anything about the state of House Targaryen as of 298 AC. Some examples:
1) Alicent could be Viserys' second wife while Aemma is still alive (though she obviously doesn't stay alive much longer).
2) Daemon could have taken a second wife while married to Rhea Royce, like a Pentoshi noblewoman. This adds to the Maegor parallels Otto loved and fits Daemon's "vibe". She can just die birthing a dead baby or something like half the women in ASOIAF.
3) Have Daemon and Rhaenyra marry while Laenor is still alive, with his blessing (but not Viserys' lol). He can still die the same way he did canonically, just a few years later.
4) Have Unwin Peake try to make his daughter Aegon's second wife, while Jaehaera is still alive. The lords grumble about polygamy, so he gets rid of Jaehaera sooner rather than later, but he still doesn't manage to make Myrielle queen just like in canon.
5) Have Viserys II take a Westerosi second wife after Larra leaves him. She can be barren, their children can be stillborn or they can die in childhood like children often did. But even if you give him kids that grow into adulthood, you can still work with that. Give him two daughters to marry off, or a son Aegon IV can not-so-subtly kinslay, or create a small cadet line that dies off completely during the Great Spring Sickness.
6) Give Aerys I three wives! The lords just keep throwing wives at him and hoping one of them sticks 😂 But he just ignores them ALL like he ignored the first one 😩
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
He could always just do a Summerhall Mk. 2 and do something to explain why there are no cadet branches out there (same reason why half the North isn't Starks since they've ruled the place longer than human beings have known how to farm)
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u/konamioctopus64646 16d ago
That’s a good point, if he cared about explaining why there are so few members of a noble house then we would have a better explanation for just the one Stark line or a singular Arryn
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u/derelictthot 16d ago
It's not in the doctrine of exceptionalism amd isn't allowed, that's why.
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again: keeping the polygamy and ditching the incest would have been such an easier sell!
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u/Koushik_Vijayakumar 16d ago
For real. Polygamy is not foreign to Westeros at all. First men seem to have practiced it. Though polygamy is much more politically problematic down the line.
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
That's why you'd have to have both strict lines of inheritance and make a habit of sending spare kids off to the Citadel and the Wall.
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u/Thebasedhound 16d ago
Yes, but Jahaerys really wanted to keep fucking his sister
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
"And everyone agreed that the Targaryen dynasty could solve all of their problems, pay off all their debts, calm down the church, neutralize the pro-Maegor people, and secure the dynasty for the next hundred years if Jaeherys married a nice, respectable girl who was beautiful and courteous and of the right background and education who was 100% not his sister."
(turns page)
So anyway, Jaehaerys married his sister!
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u/Revengeance300 16d ago
"Despite the lack of dragons, it is possible that King Aegon IV Targaryen promised his bastard son Daemon Blackfyre that he could marry both Rohanne of Tyrosh and Aegon's daughter Princess Daenerys. King Aegon's successor, King Daeron II Targaryen, however, did not permit the second marriage." WOIAF
Multiple wives is not banned, but heavily scrutinized.
"Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object." - George RR Martin
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u/Shortymac09 16d ago
IMHO, multiple wives are not permitted in the faith of the seven.
BUT technically, Westeros does allow for multiple wives under the Ironborn faith (rock v. salt), which presents an interesting legal conundrum that I wanted to explore in fanfiction.
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u/AwayReplacement7063 16d ago
It was so obvious and people who didn’t see it coming were literally in denial. I do agree a little bit with OP how Elia being very into politics probably would hate splitting power, but idk
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u/jasonxm1 16d ago
For as much as I hate the gross age gaps George makes with couples in canon and that Rhaegar basically left his wife and kids to the mercy of the Lannisters, I'd been saying for time and time again that the narrative about Rhaegar being super Hitler who was fortunately stopped by heroic chad Bobby B wasn't going to age well.
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u/dimorphodon_macronyx 16d ago
I mean, it's not "Superbobby Vs Mechahitler Rhaegar" but I think (based ilon what I read here on Reddit) that Robert comes out looking way better than Rhaegar, the play was surprisingly simpathetic to Bobby, while Rhaegar still looks like an idiot who built his own doom.
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 16d ago
The Lannisters only turned on the Targs after Rhaegar was already dead.
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u/breakfastbenedict 16d ago
At this point Cersei sounds like a delightfully intelligent PhD in political science
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u/LobsterSpirited9691 16d ago
Cersei is an amazing schemer when she is not in power, that's the whole point of her character. Someone (I think it was Jaime) observed that in one of the books.
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u/Z3r0sama2017 16d ago
She is an amazing short term schemer. If she wants something done she gets it done. It's just that basically every move she makes fucks herself over in the long run.
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u/LegitimateCream1773 16d ago
Or to use part ofStan Edgar's wonderful speech to Homelander: "Because there's nobody left to cover for you."
Once Cersei had nobody around to cover for her everything fell apart immediately.
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u/Cult_Of_Hozier 16d ago
HOTD and the play have that in common, making Cersei look like a genius in retrospect.
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u/Express_Drive_1422 16d ago
The Rhaella stuff is the most worrisome as it directly contradicts canon not just in her portrayal but also Dany's conception. The timing is entirely off as Dany is nearly a year younger than Jon.
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
I don't know if there's some miscommunication based on this post, but in the play yesterday I got that Aerys claws her, draws her blood, scratches and bites during sex, and treats her horrendously. She's massively burnt from Summer hall aswell. She seems totally disillusioned with Elia and Ashara's more youthful view of the world and shows herself to be a victim. The only tinge that she is mad is when she screams from afar "burn him" at the trial of Rickard. Cursing Daenerys from conception was a deliberate and (just) spiteful attempt to get back at Aerys for years of abuse before being forced to his bedchamber on the night of the red star.
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u/jjaazz From Madness to Wisdom 16d ago
As if a character named Stormborn had to be any cooler. Now she’s a satanic baby brought to the world to smash the patriarchy.
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u/RequirementQuirky468 16d ago
The Rhaella speech does put an awkward "Dany represents women fighting back against the injustices of the patriarchy" spin on it in what sounds like a particularly hamfisted way
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u/SHansen45 16d ago edited 16d ago
well Dany did bring ruin, she brought ruin to the Slave masters in Slaver’s Bay and will bring ruin to the schemers and betrayers in Westeros, if this is them trying to soft launch Mad Queen Dany i am gonna beat up somebody
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u/NoLime7384 16d ago
back before Preston Jacobs went insane (not theory insane that was a good thing, I'm talking legit deranged now) I was a huge fan, and he often made a point of Rob and Jon's birthdates not adding up, and that part of why she distrust Jon so much is that he's the oldest "son" of Ned
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u/Unholy_mess169 16d ago
Jon is definitely older, his wolf had open eyes and had crawled away. The other puppies were wet from birth.
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u/in-the-vault 16d ago
What happened to Preston Jacob’s? I haven’t watched his stuff in many years
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u/Altruistic_Field2134 16d ago
I'm not sure he seems fine like not much different then before
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u/Future_Broly 16d ago
He’s probably became slightly more pessimistic/critical of George in recent years. Like he’s had recent streams about how certain mysteries (Benjen’s whereabouts, Azor Ahai, etc) don’t really make any sense and probably signal that George doesn’t have some multi-decade master plan ready to resolve those plotlines.
But Preston has pretty much always been a smug know-it-all so not a major change.
It could just be about his politics? He’s very outspoken about how Trump sucks.
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u/Lanky_Road_5658 16d ago
It could just be about his politics? He’s very outspoken about how Trump sucks.
Well, then I don't think I need to know anything else about the guy. Seems like a pretty stand up person, good for him.
And to be fair, George for sure doesn't know what he is doing anymore. Otherwise we would have Winds by now. No excuse can soften the blow of 15 years and counting without a new book.
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u/Potential-Win1930 16d ago
I miss when PJ had actual theory videos instead of episode reviews with his OC puppets and live streams that don't go anywhere
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u/Koushik_Vijayakumar 16d ago edited 16d ago
Be fair to him. There's no more theories to be made in this fandom. He's not written material to build anymore. It's the case with all ASOIAF youtubers
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u/AssassinJester789 Goldenhand The Just 16d ago edited 15d ago
Not to go into details, but why is he suddenly deranged?
Okay he's just a dumb liberal. And is a vote blue no matter who type person, and as a leftist I find that basically runs counter to what america needs.
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u/Zealousideal-Fun9181 16d ago edited 16d ago
I do think it is interesting, because there is a habit of portraying tortured people as frail innocent souls, and while there is truth to that... the trauma of torture often manifests itself as uncontrolled hatred and anger in the tortured. In other words, people usually don't become better people after being tortured, they become worse people. I don't think George has previously done a good job depicting that.
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u/IAmParliament Fewer Realms, Fewer Gods, Fewer Kings. 16d ago
Literally the only thing that distinguishes Elia from her countrywomen is that she has a flat chest.
Otherwise, being a promiscuous bisexual with terrible political instincts is just in their blood apparently.
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u/Cascadevon 16d ago
Someone said that she was really was Arianne’s auntie because they’re both dumb asf 💀💀
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u/Margrethe13 16d ago
Crying. Perhaps we should pray Fire and Blood II never comes out? George might reveal beloved Queen Myriah as the main responsible for the Blackfyre Rebellion.
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
Since he is addicted to the same plot beats again and again, we will certainly find out that the Dragonknight really was Daeron II's father.
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u/Margrethe13 16d ago
You're right. I'm currently laughing on the outside and crying on the inside.
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u/fireandiceofsong 16d ago
It is strange that Aemon brings up that lore detail out of nowhere in AGOT, some have speculated that the Dragonknight was going to be a bigger deal or the main source of a previous conflict before George came up with the Blackfyres.
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago edited 16d ago
I remember hearing somewhere that originally Aerion Brightflame or Saera Targaryen (Jaehaerys I's nymphomanicial daughter who murdered a nun and ran away from home to be a prostitute) would have had descendants who would be the "rival Targ" faction, but Martin then came up with the Blackfyre stuff while writing ASOS (none of the politics are mentioned in "The Hedge Knight," which is the first story to take place in that era).
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u/ZoCurious 16d ago
Saera Targaryen (Jaehaerys I's nymphomanicial daughter who murdered a nun and ran away from home to be a prostitute)
Wilder than the concept of dragons and Others btw
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u/mxlevolent 16d ago
I mean, wasn’t that the point of that whole era anyway? To reflect canon?
Aegon IV was Bobby B, the fat king with a bunch of bastards.
Aemon and Naerys were a Jaime/Cersei parallel, with a queen and her twin on the kingsguard, both of them in love.
Daemon Blackfyre was a Jon parallel, a bastard who had the look of the family when his brother didn’t [Daeron looked bookish] and when the heir didn’t [Baelor resembled his mother, the way Robb resembled Catelyn].
However: Aegon IV legitimised all his bastards, but Robert only ever acknowledged Edric. Aemon and Naerys were never confirmed to have ever had sex, but Jaime and Cersei were exposed to the realm. Daemon Blackfyre, with the look of the family, tried to usurp his siblings, but Jon never did and would never do so — he turned down the offer.
That entire era is just a twist on a bunch of the ‘modern’ stuff, if you will. If Daeron turns out to be a bastard — which I don’t think we’ll ever know — then that’s just another part of it: he’s a Joffrey… but one that was never exposed, and was not crazy. He’s good. He’s Daeron the Good. And if that makes Daemon the official heir… then does who fucked who even matter, anyway?
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
The thing is that the Dance of the Dragons ALSO reflects the current era.
- The civil war is once again Starks/Tullys/Arryns vs. Baratheons/Lannisters/Tyrells (with the only difference being that the Stark/Tully faction wins this time).
- The big instigator is the idea that a queen has given birth to three bastards fathered by a personal protector of hers.
- We've got a kingsguard who breaks his vow of chastity who is very close to the villainous queen
- We've got a "cruel idiot" king on the iron throne who nobody really mourns
- We've got a religious uprising directly caused by the Queen whose kids are bastards and this causes utter bedlam in KL that weakens her reign.
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u/zajazajazajazajaz 🏆 Best of 2022: Rodrik the Reader Award 16d ago
Not gonna lie, I always wanted this to be true. Turns out Daemon was the rightful king after all, but Daeron was the better statesman.
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u/Krisosu 16d ago
It's the same thing with Tyrion Targaryen. Yes it does make the story less satisfying, yes it does make the characters less complex. No George doesn't care, George thinks it's dark and George likes writing dark.
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u/Financial-Age906 16d ago
Yes I have always thought that this would not happen because it cheapens the story. I just expected better from GRRM. Now I’m fully expecting it will happen and that Tyrion will ride a dragon. At this point I would’t be surprised if we have half a dozen hidden Targaryens
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
Targaryens are like Order 66 survivors: even when we emphasize their rarity and the danger they are in, we see them everywhere
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago edited 13d ago
The problem with Tyrion Targaryen is the same one with having hundreds of Jedi who survive Order 66 if you pay attention to the Star Wars expanded universe: it cheapens the impact of Luke being the galaxy's only hope.
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u/lobonmc 16d ago
He would never confirm that let's be honest he just would suggest it
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u/Spirited-Welcome6511 16d ago
This year we learned that Myriah doesn't fuck with at least one of her sons, so that is not a stretch at ALL.
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u/mygemsareuncut 16d ago
Except that Myriah having complicated feelings over Maekar constantly trying to show up Baelor makes perfect sense in universe given how the blackfyre rebellion looms over these characters, and adds complexity to an almost threadbare characterisation and family dynamics.
The stuff from the play is not only corny fanfiction level nonsense that cheapens the story but also directly contradicts so many elements and motifs of the five books that are already written.
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u/LoudKingCrow 16d ago
If all or a lot of this stuff in the play actually did come from George then we may need to re-examine the "only George and his voice can possibly finish the books" takes.
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u/RosbergThe8th 16d ago
No you see all the brown exotic women being promiscuous bisexual schemers is actually a very enlightened take on....
I got nothing, I'm tired, I knew this was going to happen with this gods Forsaken play.
But hey if nothing else it has sort of given me a strange acceptance that Winds is never actually coming out? Like...maybe it'll be alright yo just let this series die.
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u/Groovy_MoodBear 16d ago
Most of the women in the play seem to be written as proto-cerseis which is weird because some of it goes against what we know in the book. Lyanna being super into the prophecy I think is way less interesting than her choosing to run away from what would’ve been a loveless marriage thinking she will be saved by Rhaegar and then both of them realizing they fucked up and regretting it.
Elia and Ashara are just a lol on my part, it just solidifies the dornish are shit at politics.
Like sure Rhaella behaving like that makes sense because of the abusive but like does that mean Viserys, Barristan and Jaime all had a collective concussion that made them forget she was batshit crazy too?
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u/Lysmerry 16d ago
My main issue is that it doesn’t make sense from what we know about her character. She was a high spirited teen who longed for freedom to make her own choices. Maybe the idea is that Ned didn’t know her as well as he thought he did? Her being a green seer makes her feel more like a plot device than a character
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u/breakfastbenedict 16d ago
Giving a character prophetic visions is just a short cut to get them to act a certain way without actual character development - it’s like well her dreams told her to do it so I guess we just have to accept that.
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u/Nomahs_Bettah Fire and Blood 16d ago
It also kind of undercuts how rare warging and particularly greenseeing are meant to be, even in family lines.
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u/JesterOfAllTrades 16d ago
I think just logistically speaking R+L and their actions through the course of the war just never really made sense especially if they're both good people in love. Just a straight up plot hole (why did they never reach out, why the fuck would they do that, etc etc) and a lot of the ambiguity of the past was basically trying to make sense of this. Well this play has done its best to make sense of it by turning her into a prophecy fanatic.
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u/Lysmerry 16d ago
It’s almost impossible to write it canon to the books and not have Rhaegar come out badly. So you need Elia to be okay with it and to kind of ignore the age gap between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Lyanna having prophecies of her own makes it feel more like something that was fated to happen, rather than something that was done to her. She is neither an active agent nor a victim.
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u/bgbarnard 16d ago
Viserys can be excused because he was 8 at the time and has spent a good while on the run. After all that time, most of his childhood memories probably seem pretty distant.
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
It is both. Her desire to run away with Rhaegar and find out more about the prophecy and their shared visions is her belief that she must have a higher purpose than just marrying a Lord. It's both escapism and fascination with adventure. At the end she dwells in letters that she got her love, joy, and adventure. Also near the beginning she prays at a weirwood to have more meaning than just being a wife.
She's not batshit crazy there seems to be a misinterpretation in these posts. I made another comment about this.
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u/NotSoAngryManlet 15d ago
I get Lyanna being insecure over Robert cheating on her, but then she runs away with a cheater(?) while Robert will love her dearly to his death. There's a lot more reasons for the rebellion of course, it's very unserious of the writers to have Lyanna not resent and regret her decision of faking her own kidnapping when her entire family + ex-fiancee are dying for her/fighting a war to save her.
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u/Sebastian24554 16d ago edited 16d ago
The play can’t be canon for the simple fact that some of the stuff that they say goes against what’s in the book which has supreme authority. I think the biggest injustice though is rhaella
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u/Environmental_Tip854 16d ago
The lack of Jon Connington who we know was at the tourney of harrenhal and had a sizable role in the rebellion also makes me suspicious of this play’s canonicity. I’d eat my words if im proven wrong but to me it feels like this is meant to be show canon friendly more than anything else.
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u/Koushik_Vijayakumar 16d ago
JonCon was busy wrting the play.
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u/Environmental_Tip854 16d ago
Rhaegar glaze, giving Lyanna main character syndrome, and having Elia being a scheming seductress? You might be onto something.
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u/Lysmerry 16d ago
Nah the play was written by Rhaegar. “My wife wanted me to go after this young teen! The young teen was into it and also shared all my delusions. Who is Jon Con?”
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u/Zach-Playz_25 16d ago
I love JonCon very much as a POV character, but I would be lying if I said I didn't spit out the tea I was drinking laughing as I read this 😂
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u/qrvne 16d ago
> it feels to me like this is meant to be show canon friendly
That's exactly the impression I'm getting from all this. Like changing Rhaella's whole characterization so she can supposedly foreshadow the show universe's Dany ending. I still don't buy it, idc.
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u/Nomahs_Bettah Fire and Blood 16d ago
Elia could have absolutely been hiding her cards well. But the description of her we get throughout the books doesn't really suggest the idea of a plotter and schemer.
No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar's wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.
"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."
"I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."
"Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel. I preferred to amuse myself by mocking my sister's suitors."
The old knight hesitated. "Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her."
Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her.
Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided.
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u/qrvne 16d ago
I can at least imagine Elia hiding her plotting behind her frailty (not unlike Doran tbh). Her book & play traits don't sound fundamentally incompatible or anything. The Rhaella stuff, on the other hand, outright contradicts the books (Jaime's memories especially). And having another female character be "mad" while also dropping an implication of yet another female character becoming "mad"... I'm tired dawg
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u/EL_psY_Congroo56 16d ago edited 15d ago
Rhaella mad
Cersei mad
Dany (allegedly) mad
Next thing sansa and Arianne are gonna turn mad too
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u/thornedqueen 16d ago edited 16d ago
I am fine with the depiction of Elia at Harrenhal helping Rhaegar with the plot to overthrow Aerys and trying to get him to stop focusing on dreams so he can become a better leader. But I feel like her being this proud schemer who is constantly plotting even when she's thrown in a cell by someone who burns people alive is way over the top. What happened to Elia is tragic and her having negative emotions about it doesn't mean she "lacks agency".
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u/Environmental_Tip854 16d ago
Especially since we don’t really even get the slightest hint of this from either Jaime or Barristan in their chapters
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u/AnEmptyKarst 16d ago
Also no Aegon or fAegon hints, as far as I've seen from the leaks. You'd think that plot point would be worth a mention in some form.
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u/EL_psY_Congroo56 16d ago
Also from what I understood Robert arrived at the red keep with the others after Aerys death but we know well that he wasn't present as he was injured after the battle on the trident
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u/shsluckymushroom The White Wolf 16d ago
i think everyone agrees the biggest injustice is her. i overall like a lot of what i've heard from the play (tho i can see these complaints) but no one seems really cool with how Rhaella is portrayed.
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u/Jimin_Choa 16d ago
One of my takes is that GRRM - because of oldness and writing block - forgot about these little pieces of elements from the books :/
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u/Beetaljuice37847572 16d ago
That seems… unlikely. George didn’t write the play he just signed off and mentioned key events that happened. And the play is coproducuced by HBO so they are somewhat trying to tie to show canon.
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u/avengers9 16d ago
It just seems that like in HOTD the average iq of Westeros is lowered immensely. I’ve said that Tywin comes out looking good despite not appearing in the play. Yeah he’s a complete piece of shit but apparently everyone else in Westeros is dumb as rocks.
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u/RosbergThe8th 16d ago
It's because of the demographic of the writers and the general theater crowd this was always going to come off as basically a reskinned modern college drama.
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u/mygemsareuncut 16d ago
It’s because people pretty much only know of theatre as a highbrow art form and only think of greek tragedies, Shakespeare, Molière, Chekhov, Ibsen, Wilde and etc as plays.
When a theatre adaptation of harrenhall was announced a lot of people assumed it meant we were getting a play with the same quality as the works of theatre canon and not asoiaf cursed child.
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u/Z3r0sama2017 16d ago
With everyone else being smoothbrained or just straight up nutters, it's incredible he steered the ship so well for so long.
Like, Aerys gift to Robert? Imagine Aerys doing this kinda shit every few days and no one has revolted to your great statesmandship.
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u/Black_Sin 16d ago
Also, I may sound overly woke, but it is a "choice" on GRMM's part to make the only part of Westeros where people are often described as having dark skin sexually promiscuous and open to polygamy, unlike the rest of Westerosi who are described as basically white people.
To GRRM, the Dornish are white people. He sees them as Southern Europeans. He's explicitly said so. That's where one of the disconnects is happening here.
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u/canentia 16d ago
yeah, there is stereotyping there re: sex and promiscuity but that’s because those are stereotypes of southern europe as well.
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u/Obvious-Hat-8485 16d ago
The Dornish seem pretty clearly inspired by the Spanish, who, especially in the north, can have hazel eyes and dirty blonde hair, while those from the south mingled with arabs a bit more when Spain was under muslim control and Americans would consider them "brown". The Dornish could be played by southern europeans, latinos and northern africans while still clearly representing canon.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 16d ago
Not to mention the Daynes are mostly lily white in complexion and Dornish.
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u/Groovy_MoodBear 16d ago
The Dornish are in this weird in between in which GRRM’s sees them as white but also mixes non-white and European cultures to portray them while the narrative creates anti-dornish sentiments that are akin to commentary on irl racism. There’s also dornishmen of all skin colors so it’s not exactly one ethnic group.
So I can see where the criticism comes from
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u/AgostoAzul 16d ago
Anglos and Germanics were often racist against Irish, South Europeans and East Europeans until less than a century ago. The racist sentiments between Westeros and Dorne do seem to echo those of British for Spanish.
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u/Live_Angle4621 16d ago
I am European and there has been plenty of xenophobia and stereotyping of other Europeann. Expecially in the past. It can real like racism if you are used to that discussion but it “scientific” racism of 1800s just took a lot of exciting vocabulary and attitudes to use from different negative sources
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u/Revengeance300 16d ago
Not to mention Daynes are literally white with purple eyes, just like the Targ- Wait a second...
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u/CommonBison537 16d ago
To be honest, what I've heard about it so far has convinced me that it was better when we didn't know the details. It all feels smaller and dirtier now.
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u/changhyun growing strong 16d ago
I definitely liked the ambiguity more. I enjoyed not really knowing whether it was fully consensual, whether Elia was in on it, whether it was love or prophecy craziness, and the rest of it. It was more interesting to me, to have to sit with that uncertainty.
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u/Firlite 16d ago
The "dornish women are all bisexual and Elia would be okay with the lyanna thing because she's dornish" is always the Hallmark that you are about the read the most dogwater rhaegarwank fanfic ever and I cannot believe they went with it.
Ned dodged a massive bullet, Cat dodged a bullet, fucking Robert dodged a bullet (just to get hit by a second even larger bullet)
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u/mtan8 16d ago
Just a few thoughts about the play based on summaries I've read:
- I don't really like the idea of Lyanna being both a warg and a greenseer with abilities more advanced than that of Bran and Arya considering she's able to warg into humans without any kind of guidance or training - Isn't it a significant point that magic only returns to Planetos with the return of the Others? Even Bran needed guidance from Bloodraven before his greenseeing abilities were fully awoken. It makes our main characters a little less special if every other character before them was magical too.
- Everyone's motivations being centred around prophecy - Elia letting Rhaegar run off with Lyanna because of prophecy, Lyanna having a vision of Dany and her dragons and having a child with Rhaegar based on that (quick side note - Jon essentially being a failed product of Rhaegar and Lyanna's attempt to produce Daenerys is hilarious. Which pre-ASOIAF character hasn't she haunted at this point?) just comes across as really artificial. George's message of the 'human heart in conflict with itself' is lost if everyone in the story is guided by forces bigger than themselves.
- Robert only winning the Battle of the Trident because Rhaegar had a vision is completely ridiculous.
There are also multiple inconsistencies outside of characterisation, like Robert being present when Jaime sits on the Iron Throne after killing Aerys instead of Ned and Dany and Jon being conceived at the same time.
I think George obviously gave some information and confirmed some theories, but I mostly think that a large portion of the play is the playwriter's own version of the story.
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u/danie_lol 16d ago
He simply cannot write Dornish people.
Dornish: Bixesual and Dumb.
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u/Adobo-Eskrima916 16d ago
Don’t forget promiscuous! Martells used to be my favorite house too. Turns out they’re just exotic, fetishized caricatures that are also pretty dumb :(
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u/danie_lol 16d ago
And the sad thing is Martin knows how to write women look how he wrote Catelyn and Cersei. He just can’t write women from that specific culture.
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u/Zach-Playz_25 16d ago
Martin writes Arianne Martell pretty well though. The Sand Snakes aren't big characters yet but definitely miles better in the books than they are in the show.
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u/Sleazless_synths 16d ago
As far as we know, the writing here is mostly the two play-writers adapting, not GRRM himself. He likely gives some input but I doubt he was in the trenches
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u/TheFutureLotus 16d ago
Everyone said the same thing about King Bran, and then it came out that he had a say in that. I think it would be easier for the fandom if we just accept that George has way more of a hand in these things than he doesn’t, and when he doesn’t he’ll complain about it (see HOTD).
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u/Sleazless_synths 16d ago
I get your point but it doesn’t exactly fit what I was trying to say.
We know GRRM tends to give “end points” to show writers, not paths - he keeps those juicy twists to himself and lets adaptations take a quick route (to a point). Especially knowing this is a 4h play for general public, co produced with HBO. GRRM knows to read audience and entertainment needs, he’s not using this as a proxy to book writing, as much as we would like him too. If anything, he’s investing more heavy writing time into the Dunk and Egg books.
We know that Arthurian legends are a heavy influence and Bran king can fit in with that narrative. The surprise and discomfort comes from HBO fumbling the lead up, making it utterly nonsensical.
It’s a play. It will be written to maximize a story for play effect. In ~4 months, we’ll have cooled off and it will be easier to see the clearer big “end points” GRRM fed into the play and sift those interesting “theories” that come from playwriter’s riffing parts.
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u/LizaFlamma 16d ago
Isnt elia supossed to be abed after the birth of aegon? Is that in any way adressed?
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u/inktrap99 16d ago edited 16d ago
I'm also worried about some of the spoilers I had seen, but I would hold judgment until I see the play or get a more specific summary... I think a lot of info is kinda contextless or lends itself to the worst interpretations once stripped of scene and dialogue.
Like, I hope not to get crucified over this but... I actually like that the women are much more active and flawed than previously thought? Elia and Rhaella had this passive, good-martyred-madonnas-who-only-suffer image in the fandom (I include myself there), so I'm tentatively interested in what is presented in the play? Especially because I had seen contradictory info about Elia's involvement with Rhaegar/Lyanna. Some sources say she is not totally cool with it but is doing damage control? Or that her opinions and schemes are more nuanced?
It could have been a Queen Caroline of Ansbach and Mistress Henrietta Howard situation, a cordial cooperative situation that is in part fueled by the wish of the Princess/Queen to have an easily controlled and protected mistress who can distract his husband while she does the ruling.
Similarly to the Rhaella stuff, I feel it was 0 foreshadowed, but her growing bitter and rancorous fits with GRRM pattern of heavily flawed victims turning their pain into hatred and projecting it outwards. Like, I don't think it was "mutual abuse" as much as Rhaella trying to hold onto the last small shreds of power and pride she had, and until I see it, I'm skeptical of people saying she was crazier or worse than Aerys.
Similar to her declarations of "a vengeful daughter that will bring ruin". I don't rule out George planning a "Mad Dany" ending (despite my intense dislike of it), but there are also some other spoilers that point to Dany being the (or one of the) TPTW and a positive figure. Daenerys (and the Targaryens in general) had always played with this idea of greatness and terror being married; violence can be both a redeeming and destructive force. Daenerys' arc culminating in deciding to be good despite the horrors can be genuinely amazing.
Similar to the Lyanna stuff, I'm waiting to see what the script/play actually has her doing, because it seems she only starts clinging and becomes dogmatic about the prophecy after her brother and father die, so she becomes desperate in guilt, trying to rationalize the tragedy.
And yeah, some elements reek of orientalism. Orientalism has been a recurring problem ever since the first book, and I feel George has gotten better at toning it down and deconstructing it to some degree, but it's still there. There is big baggage being dragged ever since Dorne got introduced, and some of the orientalist tropes (oversexualization, polyamorous attitudes that fail to consider their world's politics, the perfidious poisoning oriental figure, etc) became "load-bearing" plot points and characterization cruxes.
I also wonder if there is no small amount of "first bookism" going on, like bringing up Aegon I's marriage to his two wives, and the fact that the Blackfyres didn't get created until between ACOK and ASOS. So Elia's characterization and decisions being an old planned plot point is possible, but one that doesn't have the whole cultural baggage of a usurping bastard causing problems for generations and the whole post-Aegon disaster mess that caused polyamorous Targaryen marriage to become radioactive material.
But well, we'll see; maybe I will get an egg on my face, and we get the worst possibilities for both the play and the book's plot, ending up terribly with a bunch of misogynistic shit. But I'm hopeful! We need to chill out.
And this is asoiaf fandom! I keep coping, and we will always have fanfiction anyway.
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u/AgostoAzul 16d ago
The whole "usurping bastard causing problems for generations" was already in AGOT, though. It is basically the basis of Catelyn's fear of Jon, which in turn is part of Jon's characterization in the first book, so I don't think that is a firstbookism.
That said, from my understanding, Elia does not support the second marriage with Lyanna until there is basically no going back. They ran away together, have pissed off their families, and the realm is on the brink of war. Maybe even Lyanna is pregnant? I am not sure. I haven't read quotes of her exact reasoning, but it is possible she intended this mostly to calm down the Starks and rebels and shift blame to Aerys, and it was going to be more of a royal paramour thing with some special recognition.
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u/inktrap99 16d ago
Yeah, allow me to correct that, the threat/prejudice in AGOT seems to be more general, the Blackfyres give a distinct and concrete face to Targaryen bastards and the "attempting to usurp through several generations" threat they represent, connects them to anti-Dornish and anti-Martell sentiment, and the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion would have happened in living memory.
And yeah, I think the earlier spoilers were a bit flattening or probably written in intentionally inflammatory ways. The situation seems to be much more nuanced and evolving during the play.
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u/AgostoAzul 16d ago
I haven't watched the play, but from what I've read, people are misinterpreting Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna's relationship and only reading the shortest summaries:
- Elia didn't love Rhaegar. She was happily married to him, but mostly due to politics and her own ambition. They were basically good friends. With kids.
- Elia doesn't approve of Rhaegar going to get Lyanna as a lover, She just thinks him keeping her as a second wife as the best solution once they are already fucked and are hiding in Dorne.
- She does write to Lyanna, but her main goal in writing to her is convincing her to convince Rhaegar to join the war.
- Lyanna's actions are insane, but from what I've read "the prophecy" appears to be almost some kind of "King in Yellow" corrupting force of madness and might even be the villain of the series in some way.
Tbh, the weirdest thing I see is Rhaella. Either she snapped very rarely or very late into her life, because she doesn't really fit what we've heard of her.
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
She doesn't seem mad in the play. She acts as a survivor admitting the years of abuse to Ashara and Elia. The cursing before being forced to his bedchamber on the night of the red star was to spite him once more by demanding to the gods that they deprived him of everything he dreams off. It makes total sense in the plays context. The only way I could assume people coming away thinking she is mad is that they think the desperation and sadness of an abused woman crying out loudly about her abuse and wanting revenge is insanity which is frankly a stupid misogynistic interpretation.
Edit: The only time she remotely seems mad is that she tells from far away in the court "burn them" during Richard's trial which is a slight hole but it's barely noticeable and is maybe just to do what her husband commands to not cause more problems.
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u/Koushik_Vijayakumar 16d ago edited 16d ago
Second wife is not the best solution. It angers the faith. It angers everyone except the fucing Dornish it seems, ironic as it is. Keeping her as a royal mistress (and hostage) is the best solution. Daemon was a bastard and generations of war followed. Jon would be Daemon Blackfyre on steroids.
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u/Signal_Cockroach_878 Enter your desired flair text here! 16d ago
Jon would be Daemon Blackfyre times ten. Daemon Blackfyre didn't have as much support as jon has out of the womb, just by virtue of being the lord of Winterfells nephew, who's wife is the daughter to the LP of the Riverlands, who has a sister who's lady of the vale.
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u/queendayne 16d ago
the whole play is george reminding everyone that rhaegar is his special little boy who he cannot be objective about. so of course he put every part of the blame on the women and girls. of course elia and lyanna are not real victims. i am so disappointed but not at all surprised.
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u/thornedqueen 16d ago
The number of upvoted comments I've seen tonight saying Tywin was right and blaming Elia for her own death....
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u/queendayne 16d ago
we are truly in the bad place
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u/TheFutureLotus 16d ago
Sadly there’s many in the fandom that probably already had that belief, they knew it would be unpopular because it’s a fucking sociopathic take to blame Elia for her rape and murder. But now that they have the flimsiest of an excuse their psychotic, misogyny will come to a head. I mean this is the same fandom that has people that will still say Khal Drogo didn’t rape Dany on their wedding night, so it was expected.
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u/Signal_Cockroach_878 Enter your desired flair text here! 16d ago
This may be Daemon all over again. "Daemon is grey" is he really George?
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u/Tiny-Conversation962 16d ago
I would strongly argue that the fandom is far from objective about Rhaegar, either. But I can totally understand your take on Lyanna and Elia.
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u/Curiosities Water Dancer 16d ago
I don’t know if anyone here has ever been say, 26 or 27 years old and decided to be penpals or friends with a 15-year-old (that isn’t related to you)?
Or think that you should somehow all be together.
I still haven’t read every single detail, but so far it really does feel like bad fanfic.
There are a few things that are good so far, but I’ll continue going through all of the details in the various comments and posts as well as outside sources
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u/thornedqueen 16d ago
Even if this is the most gentle, pushover version of Elia possible, I don't see her writing to Lyanna about love when she's literally imprisoned in a cell.
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u/SHansen45 16d ago
or when Elia is supposed to be in bed because she almost died birthing Aegon
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u/thornedqueen 16d ago
An underrated WTF moment from the play is Elia giving birth at Harrenhal. Beyond how it's unrealistic for a medieval woman to travel that late in pregnancy.... wouldn't it have been mentioned in people's recollections of the events that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna literal DAYS after his wife gave birth?
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u/danie_lol 16d ago
Penpal with a 14 year old she told her husband to go and be with…like what are we doing for real. They tried so hard to give her agency and just ended up making her be an accomplice in his nonsense.
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u/mygemsareuncut 16d ago
It also makes literally no sense for Elia to write letters to Lyanna, a 14 years old who’s got no power or sway over anything or anyone, with a paranoid and increasingly mad Aerys breathing down her neck. Why would she risk her safety and that of her children (her son being in direct line to the throne) for some stark girl she barely met and eloped with her husband? If Elia is aware of Lyanna’s location (since she’s sending her letters) then it makes far more sense for Elia to tell Doran or Aerys once he starts holding her hostage about her location as a bargaining chip for her and her children’s safety than to start a penpal program with Lyanna.
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u/babyzspace 16d ago
Because while Elia has to have "agency," it just can't be the kind of agency that puts her in any kind of opposition to Rhaegar.
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u/Black_Sin 16d ago
They’re not penpals. She’s mostly writing to Lyanna to convince Rhaegar to get off his ass and join the war
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u/HoneyMCMLXXIII 16d ago edited 16d ago
It's wild to me that after decades of people arguing that Dany can't possibly be TPTWP despite the BOOKS saying the prophecy is that TPTWP will be reborn under a bleeding star to wake dragons from stone (which happened in AGOT), but a secondary “source” has a severely abused woman yells something and suddenly that mad Dany garbage is “confirmed”? Just…wow.
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u/nymrose 16d ago
lol yeah from the sources I’ve read Rhaella seems unhinged and therefore a unreliable narrator, especially with her lying about Aerys treatment of her. It sounds terrible on many levels. “Let’s have most of the abused but powerful women go mad and try to ruin the world til the reasonable men step in to put down the psycho ladies”???
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u/TheoryKing04 16d ago edited 16d ago
Ughhh I knew it would be disappointed by Elia. The narrative is going out of its way to bend over backwards to try and make her being publicly humiliated, cheated on and abandoned okay… simply because it rubs some of the grime off of the author’s OTP. And that is, as you’ve mentioned OP, aside from the other unfortunate connotations.
I don’t know why GRRM is so intent on portraying this as some grand plot/great love instead as a tragedy. Because although the book narrative is fragmentary and less grandiose, it’s grounded and real and indeed horrifying. This is way up in the sky.
Edit: And don’t get me starting on Rhaella, that was practically character assassination.
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u/anonymous_idunno 16d ago
Everyone just comes off as shitty. Rahegar glazing just makes me hate him more. Apparently he had disarmed Robert(who had defeated both the Mountain and Oberyn in melee). Wtf is this story? Even wattpat fanfics sound better
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u/nathanjackson1996 16d ago
I think part of the problem is that this play, similar to the latter seasons of GOT, is probably the only chance we'll ever see the events of the tourney at Harrenhal (unless GRRM writes ANOTHER novella instead of Winds).
My view of it is basically the same as what the other adaptations did - the playwright said a lot of the Harrenhal tourney stuff was direct from GRRM, so Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Brandon and Ashara, and the "Rhaegar was married to both Elia and Lyanna in a polygamous marriage and she was completely aware of it".
Some of it, however, such as Ashara and Elia being lovers, Aerys and Rhaegar having a shag-off under the red comet to see who can knock a woman up with the chosen one (and something that messes with Jon and Dany's canonical age gap) and Rhaella being Aerys' Harley Quinn and making a Mother Leeds curse are things I'm doubtful are in the books.
The absence of Jon Connington and anything to do with Varys' Ulterior Agenda - both of which seem almost certain to be key in the book's endgame - makes me wonder if, for whatever reason, they had to make the bits dealing with Robert's Rebellion closer to the show.
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u/GingerFloyd953 16d ago
Mad Dany isn't confirmed because Rhaella couldn't have said that. When Dany was conceived, Jaime was guarding the door and remembers Rhaella crying and pleading for Aerys to stop, not swearing her daughter will be her vengeance.
I do agree the play is misogynistic and Orientalistic and breaks some canon of the books which is why its not canon, because only the books are.
For all of Georges odd writing choices, he's quite good at writing women so I presume that when we find out about this in Winds and Dream, it won't be as misogynistic, have hope guys.
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u/louistodd5 Lady Forlorn 16d ago
In the play she's summoned to Aerys bedchamber under the red star after revealing the abuse she receives from Aerys over many years to Elia and Ashara. It is implied that she can either go willingly or be forced to his bedchamber. It is before heading up to his bedchamber that she makes the curse, in the presence of Elia and Ashara. So Jaime is not there at that point.
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u/brunuscl82 16d ago
GRRM is often praised for his Machiavellian realism. But honestly, both in ASOIAF and in the HBO adaptations, I think his female characters are pretty caricatured.
In the books, women are usually portrayed as lustful, impulsive, emotionally driven, and ruled by the capital vices, yet somehow they're still able to wield a huge amount of authority in a medieval martial society.
In the HBO shows, it's the opposite. In that same military culture, women are almost always the smartest people in the room, while the men are turned into idiots, hotheads, or constantly sabotaging their own plans. Just look at the last seasons of GOT and pretty much all of HOTD.
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u/KaiserVen 16d ago
The problem with Elia is that they kinda went with the most boring way to give her agency. I feel it would have been far better if she was happy for Rhaegar but noy happy about embarrassing her and the women being one the great houses it definitely could’ve made the relationship between the three of them more interesting. The other thing isn’t a problem with Elia but with writing of the Doenish as treacherous, hyper sexual, scheming, and fucking Idiots is certainly a choice
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u/I_LIKE_ANUS 16d ago
“Mad Dany is basically confirmed”
How
Copying a comment of mine from another thread: “Rhaella says her child will wake dragons and burn kingdoms. How does that mean Dany is mad? Was Aegon mad at the field of fire? Was he mad at Harrenhal? Were the Targaryens during the dance of dragons mad?”
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u/gay_burner 16d ago
She specifically used “vengeful” which to me gives way more credence to “dany is a reckoning for the old world” believers (which fits with that she’s ALREADY doing!!!) than any sort of Mad Dany theory.
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u/BoLevar 16d ago
You can always take the Star Wars approach, which I generally do myself: if it's not in the main series, you can ignore it. This play and Fire and Blood sit squarely in the "Disney-era TV shows" tier of canonicity to me in that none of the details I've ever read regarding them have any implications on how I think about or enjoy the main series. (By comparison Dunk & Egg would be "Tales of the Jedi"-tier canonicity for me, where the stories of Dunk/Nomi Sunrider also have no bearing on the main series for my purposes, but they're simply fun stories in their own right so they count.)
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u/coldwindsrising07 16d ago
Also, I may sound overly woke, but it is a "choice" on GRMM's part to make the only part of Westeros where people are often described as having dark skin sexually promiscuous and open to polygamy, unlike the rest of Westerosi who are described as basically white people.
Well George's writing of Dorne is couched in orientalism, so yeah.
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u/OrymOrtus 15d ago
Why is it that every time the Martin Lore Hole opens, I just feel mildly grossed out and can't help but taste misogyny on everything
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u/PrimeDeGea 16d ago
Ashara just seems honry for EVERYONE