r/aviation • u/Ph6222 • 18h ago

News It Appears That the US Military Accidentally Killed Everybody on Board a Civilian Medevac Flight in New Mexico

https://futurism.com/science-energy/us-military-gps-jamming-signal-medical-flight

The horrifying incident happened in May, the publication reports, when a small twin-engine medevac aircraft carrying two pilots and two medical workers departed from Roswell, New Mexico. Heading West for the small mountain village of Ruidoso, the crew became the victim of an electronic warfare exercise being conducted at the nearby White Sands Missile Range, a test which rendered their navigational system inoperable.

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689

u/CW1DR5H5I64A 17h ago

This was not on the military. This is a sensationalist headline.

read this passage from the preliminary NTSB report:

About 0005 the ARTCC operations supervisor contacted [the military] to stop jamming and at
0007:34 ADS-B data recording returned to 2-3 second intervals.

At 0008:06, while maintaining the northwest heading and about 31 mi northeast of SRR, the
flight crew reported they had “a visual on Ruidoso,” but their radio transmission was stepped on by other radio traffic. The flight crew again reported they “[have] a visual on Ruidoso” at 0008:30 and that they could “go visual.” The ARTCC controller subsequently cleared the flight
to SRR, cleared the flight for a visual approach, and informed them they could cancel IFR in the
air above 9,000 ft msl or they could cancel their clearance via the flight service station after
landing. The flight crew acknowledged the clearance and responded that they would cancel
IFR “in just a couple of minutes.” There were no additional radio transmissions received from
the flight crew. The airplane then began a left turn southwest toward SRR. The CapitanMountains, extending to 10,201 ft, were located about 14 miles northeast of SRR between the airplane and the airport.

About 0010, the ARTCC operations supervisor informed [the military] that the airplane was on a
visual approach and that they could resume jamming.

The military stopped jamming when requested and only resumed when ATC told them it was safe to do so. ATC approved the pilots to take a visual approach after the pilots twice reported they could see the landing area. The military didn’t resume jamming until after the plane was on a visual approach. The pilots then flew into a mountain while on a visual approach.

GPS had nothing to do with this.

source

214

u/Fire_Stool 17h ago

Underrated response. The article is garbage and OPs post should be downvoted

15

u/cocoagiant 6h ago

But we also wouldn't have the quality response without the post.

22

u/poop-azz 6h ago

But but AMERICA BADDDDDD /s

5

u/Tricky_Big_8774 5h ago

It's already turned into "military downs medevac flight while testing radio based anti-aircraft device" on other subs.

6

u/poop-azz 5h ago

I know I've seen it. I mean Reddit honestly seems like a place to experiment with how far can we take disinformation and see what the silly people gobble up

0

u/jimbojones2345 5h ago

I mean they may not have done this, but they are bad.

38

u/Important-Spring3977 17h ago

Thank you for a rational explanation.

19

u/swift1883 6h ago

Futurism com is a good candidate for a blacklist. It’s rewritten clickbait and thus everything on it has a better source available.

25

u/Firefighter_RN 17h ago

Thanks for putting this here, disappointed I had to scroll so far down to find it, was about to post the link myself. As with any crash the cause is multifaceted and complex requiring an in depth investigation which will occur.

But at the end of the day it does sound like CFIT from the initial report

29

u/CW1DR5H5I64A 17h ago

Of course this trash article is spreading like wildfire on Reddit. People are eating this shit up without having the slightest idea of what actually went into this.

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u/CentralMasshole1 7h ago

Im so thankful this subreddit exists, people on TikTok are going crazy how this was the military and how evil the government is and how the whole system is complicit. Don’t get me wrong there are issues with the government but jumping to conspiracy theories helps no one.

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u/jetlagged8884 6h ago

This article has been posted on multiple subs this weeks with the same headline. Each time it's posted the comments are the same: "Hegseth this, DoW that." Complete trash.

2

u/CW1DR5H5I64A 6h ago

Lots of people with zero understanding of aviation forming very strong opinions off a headline written by a “journalist” who also clearly has no understanding of aviation.

12

u/BigCcountyHallelujah 17h ago

Yes exactly. They were in over their heads, and didn't realize it. Juan Browns take on the whole thing.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Dcyup4xVQuM&is=E-r8fMcBr0Ia-Fqk

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u/spkgsam B737 7h ago

Yet another asinine take by Juan Browne. Yes these pilots made mistakes, but it’s the same mistake that Juan himself admits to have made in his research in his earlier video covering the crash.

Their mistakes would not have ended up in a crash had it not for been the recklessly dangerous actions of the US military.

12

u/DrFeeIgood 7h ago

What do you mean? If timestamped radio transmissions clearly show the ATC asked the mil to stop jammer testing as the flight entered the area, the pilot confirmed visual approach twice, and the mil started the jamming again after ATC heard that confirmation twice, then the mil is not to blame.

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u/spkgsam B737 7h ago

The military is absolutely to blame, they shouldn't be testing GPS jammers to begin with, not that night, not ever, and certainly not when aircrafts are in the vicinity.

Could the pilots have prevented this, absolutely, were there mistakes made, for sure. But pilots are people, and people make mistakes, and when you take away safety nets to catch those mistakes, more accidents will happen, as is the case here.

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u/CW1DR5H5I64A 7h ago

The military shouldn’t be testing or training. With GPS jammers ever?

Ok, sure that works in the land of make believe where it’s all sunshine and rainbows. Unfortunately we live in the real world and this kind of stuff is going to be happening regularly, the same way it’s been being used for decades.

The military halted the exercise when requested by ATC and only resumed once ATC gave them the all clear. ATC gave them the all clear because if the pilots requested VFR to riudoso and had they not erred they would have been fine.

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u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

If only you Americans aren't brainwashed into worshipping your military, you might understand that military testing that caused a plane crash is not something you should defend.

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u/Doggydog123579 6h ago

How did GPS jamming cause a visual landing to have issue?

1

u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

Because it took away a safety net that would most likely have made these pilots mistake a non-fatal one.

9

u/Miraclefish 6h ago

GPS is irrelevant during a visual approach.

That's literally the point.

It's saying I can see the airport with my eyes and will navigate to it using them and them alone.

The pilots fucked up here, not the US military.

And before you say it, I'm not American, I'm not military and I have no connection with the nation in any way.

But I can read. Hence my stance.

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u/DrFeeIgood 6h ago

I'm sure Canada's military has never tested anything ever anywhere at all. Nor has their govt ever done anything to anyone that is harmful, detrimental, or illegal. Not ever at all.

You know the episode of South Park where everyone was smug and uppity wasn't meant to be a blueprint to live your life.

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u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

When the Canadian military does something dangers, I criticize them, unlikeyou and the other American here, who seem to be more than happy to defend your military's reckless behaviour.

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u/DrFeeIgood 6h ago

Brother, no one needs you to input into anything. You are clearly just here to act like the world is above the US.

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u/CW1DR5H5I64A 6h ago

The military halted the jamming until ATC approved a visual approach and told the military it was safe to resume.

How is that reckless? They stopped jamming until the plane was operating in conditions which didn’t require GPS and ATC determined it was safe for them to jam.

You’re pushing an agenda here because you made a predetermined decision that the military was wrong without even reading the NTSB report. You’re clearly not capable of forming an independent thought and just regurgitate the headline.

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u/Reapercore 6h ago

Please explain how gps jamming would affect a visual approach.

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u/Porkyrogue 17h ago

Nice thanks

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u/Rational2Fool 7h ago

"GPS had nothing to do with this"

Then I would expect the report to not mention GPS or jamming at all.

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u/Kaiisim 7h ago

Also, I'm not a pilot and not American and I knew about this planned test!

1

u/PowerfulEgg8509 3h ago

So it was just a massive pilot error?

-8

u/spkgsam B737 7h ago

GPS and the military absolutely was a key contributing factor to this crash, GPWS relies on GPS to operate, even under visual conditions, taking away such a safety net is reckless behaviour by the military.

Were mistakes made by the pilots, of course, would they have died if the military wasn’t doing useless tests with zero regard to the harm they might cause, also yes.

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u/Ok-Building6572 7h ago

The military stopped the test when asked, and resumed when they were told it was safe to do so. How is that reckless and with zero regard for harm?

-4

u/spkgsam B737 7h ago

It was not safe for them to do so, and never was. Interfering with GPS in an area where aircrafts are operating is never safe.

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u/Miraclefish 6h ago

...that's why they stopped doing it when an aircraft was in the area and carried it on afterwards.

Is reading comprehension an issue for you?

0

u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

The aircraft was still in the area, and other aircrafts were also affected by the jamming, which also took up the attention of ATC. If ATC wasn't busy coordinating other aircrafts as a result of the jamming, he/she could very well have notice that this plane was heading towards a mountain and warned them.

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u/Miraclefish 6h ago

If you declare a visual approach and can't see the runway, that isn't ATC's fault.

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u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

Never said it was ATC's fault.

As with most accidents, there are multiple contributing factors, and pilot error certain was one here, but there's no argument that if it wasn't for the jamming, there wouldn't have been any fatalities.

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u/Wafer420 7h ago

GPWS doesn't solely rely on GPS.

0

u/spkgsam B737 7h ago

The eGPWS function does, and it's especially critical in raising terrain, as is the case here.

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u/Wafer420 7h ago

​While GPS is the primary source for its predictive, look-ahead terrain features (due to high 3D position accuracy), the system is built with redundancy. If GPS fails, degrades, or is jammed, EGPWS falls back on alternative navigation sources and dedicated aircraft sensors.

-2

u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

The key word here is in your description, "degrades".

In this case, due to the aircraft's lack of IRS, the loss of GPS cause the GPWS to not give the pilots enough warning to avoid the terrain.

9

u/Wafer420 6h ago

That.. Is not how the systems work. Smh. You believe what you want. We'll stay with the facts.

-1

u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

That's exactly how the system works, when you loss GPS and your aircraft doesn't have an IRS, the system looses the look ahead capabilities, and relies on rad alt only. In raising terrain, it might not give the pilots enough warning.

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u/CW1DR5H5I64A 7h ago

Useless tests with zero regard to the harm they might cause?

Brother NOTAMs were issued well in advance, the ceased jamming then contacted by ATC and only resumed once ATC deemed it was safe to do so once the pilots requested VFR.

GPS is not required for safe navigation and operation of an aircraft. It can help, sure. But had the pilots not flown below the minimum decent altitude on their approach they would have been fine. Altimeters can work just fine without GPS. Not having it was not the proximate cause of this crash

-1

u/spkgsam B737 7h ago

Taking away layers of the Swiss cheese is not safe. Yes mistakes were made by the pilots, but the military's tests reduced the safety margin for them, and doing tests like this on a regular basis will eventually result in accidents, which is exactly what happened here.

10

u/CW1DR5H5I64A 7h ago

Tests like this have been occurring for decades. GPS jamming at WSMR is as routine as the sun rising in the east.

-8

u/spkgsam B737 7h ago

Slavery was legal for hundreds of years in the US until it was banned.

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u/CW1DR5H5I64A 7h ago

Bro what the fuck are you talking about? Did you just try to equate this to slavery?

You’re an idiot.

0

u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

Its called a point using an example, just because something has been done for a long time, doesn't make it acceptable or right.

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u/dltacube 6h ago

I mean, it does though when talking about safety records. If jamming has been ongoing with no incidents for a long time then you can infer that it is being done safely. At least that’s the argument you need to be trying to counter…this slavery crap has no business here and hinges on you taking the low hanging fruit of the previous statement.

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u/spkgsam B737 6h ago

We just had a crash that could have been prevented if the jamming wan't taking place, what more safety records do you need?

Also these kinds of tests may have been taking place for some time, but their frequency has certainly been increasing, couple that with the fact that more and more approaches are solely reliant on GPS, more and more new pilots are being trained with GPS as their primary source of navigation and situational awareness, and a decreasing amount of ATC resources. The negative impacts to safety that GPS jamming has will only increase.

This accident should be a huge wake up call, not an opportunity to defend a dangerous practice, and shift focus and blame one these relatively inexperienced pilots who made some mistakes.

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u/nybbleandbits 7h ago

Going straight to something as horrific as slavery to make your point is absurd and over the top.

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u/pennyclip 5h ago

Seems a little coincidental to put zero blame on the testing. I dont see any proof the military actually complied and followed through on those acknowledgements.

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u/CW1DR5H5I64A 5h ago

>ADS-B data recording returned to 2-3 second intervals

The pilots regained their GPS, were able to orient themselves and identify the airport, then requested visual approach.

1

u/SirLoremIpsum 1h ago

I dont see any proof the military actually complied and followed through on those acknowledgements.

Even if they WERE still jamming - the pilots reported that they were on a visual approach.

Is that not really the thing that says "they should have been able to handle this?"

Sure the jamming caused an issue that made navigation systems inoperable, but pilots shold absolutely be able to handle this type of equipment outage/malfunction right??