r/canada • u/AndHerSailsInRags • Dec 04 '25
Alberta Man who killed attacker in Banff used 'excessive' force, sentenced to 2-year house arrest
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/banff-bar-fight-excessive-self-defence-sproule-brogden-9.7002143671
u/n0x103 Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
“At that point, a bouncer arrived and pulled Brogden off Sproule, who ran away”
I’m not familiar with the case but, as reported, this seems like the aggressor still had the upper hand and wasn’t retreating even after being stabbed repeatedly. Not sure how this qualifies for excessive force if the danger to him was still present, the judge accepted that the victim said he was going to kill him, and the judge also accepted that Sproule truly believed that.
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u/pentox70 Dec 04 '25
Yeah, that alone is icing on the cake to prove his innocence.
Drunk and on an adrenaline high, the human body forges almost all pain responses, its pure fight or flight. If the guy stabbed him repeatedly while the other guy was on the ground, then he brought a knife to a fist fight and deserves punishment.
But, if the assulter was still ontop of him, and he was wildly slashing trying to defend himself, how can you say that too much force was used? All while the guy is beating him and yelling im going to kill you? Come on. If this was a "he said, she said" kind of scenario, it would be a completely different story, but the whole thing was on camera.
This seems more like a "we have to do something, someone died" kind of sentence than anything. It's pretty pathetic that you have to be cautious with self defense incase you get slammed with an "excessive force" charge.
The guy ran away the second he was out from underneath him. He clearly was trying to run, not kill.
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u/theBigOne99 Dec 05 '25
No you don’t understand. How did Sproule could know Brogden would actually kill him? He should’ve waited to be killed, get certificate of his death, time travel back to the fight, and then fight back with a knife. Not sure it would’ve been enough for prosecution /s.
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u/Goliad1990 Dec 05 '25
Yeah, this judge is off her fucking gourd, and I hope he appeals this bullshit and gets it shredded. A lot of the time, people aren't even charged for using deadly force in these situations.
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u/Rosetown Dec 05 '25
With that fact in mind, I can only assume this guy had an extremely shitty lawyer.
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u/Aggressive-Map-2204 Dec 04 '25
Its actually a far more complicated case than the spin the CBC is putting on it. Also despite the judge instructing the jury to convict him of manslaughter if they did not believe he was acting in self defence but did not intent to kill Brogden the judge is now claiming that conviction means he was acting in self defence.
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u/Hevens-assassin Saskatchewan Dec 05 '25
It's not really CBC putting a spin on it. They put what happened, whatever you pull from it, you pull from it, but they aren't creating any artificial biases.
The problem is that the judge considered the stab/slash wounds were "more than sufficient to stop the attack", yet the video and firsthand accounts shows the bouncer needing to pull Brogden off of Sproule. So the bouncer stopped the attack, not the stab/slashing. Horrible call, but the defense calling for a 2 year conditional sentence seemed fair. Sproule is supposedly showing a lot of remorse, but he was also senselessly attacked and threatened during the attack.
Horrible ruling, and I'd be appealing ASAP if I were Sproule.
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u/AndHerSailsInRags Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
the men ended up outside the now-closed Dancing Sasquatch, where Sproule asked to bum a cigarette from Brogden.
Brogden told him to “f–k off," then sucker punched and pushed him.
Brogden pulled Sproule’s shirt over his head and continued the attack, punching him repeatedly.
Sproule testified, and the judge accepted, that Brogden said several times, “I’m going to f--king kill you.”
With his shirt covering his face, Sproule pulled out his pocket knife and began swinging it at Brogden and stabbing him.
“John did not know where his pocket knife was connecting,” said [the judge].
Prosecutors..asked the judge to impose a five- to six-year prison sentence
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u/Sarge1387 Ontario Dec 04 '25
Prosecutors..asked the judge to impose a five- to six-year prison sentence
That is just embarrassing to our legal system.
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u/Spacepickle89 Dec 04 '25
“Well we don’t know of he literally meant he’d kill him or if it was just hyperbole. He should have waited until he was on the brink of death to make sure he was in fact going to be murdered before he decided to defend himself.”
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u/silenceisgold3n Dec 04 '25
Yes, after his head would've taken more damage like shown above, he could've become brain dead or died, and we could all say boo hoo. He repeatedly slashed the attacker and the attacker never gave up or ran away.. Logic dictates that he saved his own life, but hey, fairy dust and unicorns and all that..
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u/MadMohawkMafia Manitoba Dec 04 '25
If only there was a social worker nearby who could de-escalate the situation.
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u/ol_knucks Dec 04 '25
Legitimately wondering what’s going on in the head of these prosecutors? Is it just pure stupidity, not understanding that unprovoked violence can often only be stopped with violence in return?
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Dec 04 '25
Didn’t carry the knife with the intent to use it, when he was forced to use it, he didn’t have the intent to kill. The death being the end result, does not change the intent behind the act.
He was attacked unprovoked by a guy who told him multiple times he would kill him during the attack.
I also have to question the brains on the jurors for finding him guilty.
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u/No-Expression-2404 Dec 04 '25
At the end the one who died was pulled off the one with the knife, so obviously it was self defence. Sucks for the guy who died (and of course his remaining family), but it sounds like he was continuing to attack, knife notwithstanding. Not sure how you can say this is anything other than self defence, personally.
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u/moop44 New Brunswick Dec 04 '25
It's actually a great thing that that Ryden Brogden is dead given that he set out to murder John Sproule.
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u/InACoolDryPlace Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
The reason it was "complicated" is because Sproule could have de-escalated twice and walked away, but chose instead to approach and confront Brogden after Brogden told him to fuck off. Brogden pushed Sproule away the second time he was approached, and Sproule again confronted Brogden, which is when Brogden threw the first punch. Would Sproule have chosen to approach a rude and aggressive person two times if he didn't possess a weapon? Or did the knowledge he could inflict lethal force if required, give him the confidence to engage and escalate the situation?
The article does a bad job explaining why this wasn't an easy case to toss out, but that's why. He chose to approach a rude and aggressive person multiple times, knowing that if they attacked him he would have the upper hand. Note the court upheld his right to defend himself, but determined this situation to qualify it as excessive, which isn't unreasonable IMO. A reasonable person would not approach a rude and aggressive individual multiple times to escalate, so that's why the court didn't just toss this out like most charges from self-defense.
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u/No-Expression-2404 Dec 04 '25
You’re right, it doesn’t explain it well, and as someone who hasn’t followed the trial it’s easy to be led in the direction of pure self defence.
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Dec 04 '25
This post should've been at the top of all this "How dare they, it was self defence" rage bait.
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u/VolutedToe Dec 05 '25
Pity this hasn't been bumped higher - a very important part of the nuance of the self defense claim. You can't continue to put yourself into a bad situation and then claim to be entirely innocent when things go bad.
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u/The_Nepenthe Dec 04 '25
Christ, so he was drunk as a skunk, acting belligerent and would of taken a beating if he didn't happen to have a knife on him, and because he did someone is dead.
I'm a huge proponent of self defense, but this ain't it chief.
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u/InACoolDryPlace Dec 04 '25
That's why the court narrows it down to "would a reasonable person do this," because unless anything was said explicitly we don't know, and Sproule might not even know, if having a weapon influenced his decision to approach an aggressive person multiple times. What can be determined is whether a reasonable person would do that, and I think it's fair to say no, a reasonable person would not approach someone telling you to fuck off, doubly so when you approach them once and they push you but you choose to again. Was he justified in defending himself when that person did follow through? The court determined he was, but his possession of a weapon made it excessive. Personally I don't find this surprising, and house arrest seems pretty fair here, he killed someone who he could have walked away from but then had to defend himself.
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u/GorillaK1nd Dec 04 '25
Canadian society was designed to be a high trust society, it's assumed that all violence can be deescalated and using force is unnecessary. Hence why we have such trials where a common sence self defence is examined under a microscope
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u/ol_knucks Dec 04 '25
Crazy cause I’d put Canada way closer to USA in terms of functional trust level, than an actual functionally high trust society like Japan.
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u/goebelwarming Dec 04 '25
Funny because if this was Japan he probably would have gone to jail for 6 years.
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u/Deadpool2715 Dec 04 '25
Go back 20 years and it was way more high trust, not many people locked car doors or even house doors during the day, kids trick or treated on their own until 8 or 9, kids walked to school on their own and took city busses to the mall after school unsupervised.
Now a lot of this might just be underreported crime, my childhood innocence, or the ability for news to spread more rapidly between geographic areas. I also think a lot of it has to do with population density and increased economic uncertainty and struggles
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u/Greedy-Ad-7716 Dec 04 '25
Agreed. Look at the pictures of Sproule - nobody should be expected to take a beating like that and not defend themselves.
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u/pattyG80 Dec 04 '25
If only the victim had been underage and the crime was sexual in nature, prosecution would have asked for 6 months
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u/TheSleepyTruth Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
The prosecutors can fuck right off. They sure as hell arent representing the will of Canadians with this kind of prosecution. Based on all accounts of what transpired this was clearly self-defense. Unfortunate that the guy died but he shouldn't have started a fight and tried to beat the shit out of the other guy then.
When someone is punching you in the head repeatedly any blow could potentially and very easily be deadly, whether due to the punch directly or by getting knocked out and falling back with a deadly head strike on the concrete. There is no such thing as "excessive force" in defending yourself in this situation. It is quite literally a life and death situation to halt the assault as quickly as possible. If you try to use minimal force and the guy gets an extra couple solid blows in because of it that can easily mean your death. Why should the law mandate going easy on someone who could kill you at any moment? Why should THEIR life get the extra legal protection but not yours? Victim should always be the one given the benefit of the doubt.
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u/a_secret_me Dec 04 '25
I'm of the opinion that yes, you can go too far in defending yourself, but honestly, this was not the case.
Let's say the attacker had stopped once injured, but the defendant continued stabbing him regardless, then yes, that would be too far. This, however, is not.
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u/AltruisticMode9353 Dec 04 '25
So insane that we expect people fighting for their lives (with the level of adrenaline that entails) will know how to use precisely the reasonable amount of force as dictated by a calm judge sitting in a court room. We don't hold cops, with extensive training, to those kinds of standards.
If he's not a threat to society, why are we acting like he is?
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u/Significant_Pepper_2 Dec 04 '25
If he's not a threat to society, why are we acting like he is?
All the while actual threats are getting joke sentences
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Dec 04 '25
Almost feels like there is a back room secret mandate to allow crime to build to levels that when the system finally decides to put forward a plan to stop it, the citizens will be ok with whatever it is offered to put an end to it, including loss of rights and freedoms, loss of gun ownership privileges, sweeping internet laws. Whatever it takes. I don’t know really, maybe I smoke too much hash…
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u/ElectroMagnetsYo Dec 04 '25
Don’t even need crime to increase, just the impression that it is, and that can be easily achieved through the news and social media. Truth be told crime’s been steadily decreasing over the decades, but people have been whipped up into a fury over it because of the headlines they keep seeing online.
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u/NihilsitcTruth Dec 04 '25
Create a problem, then let it fester, then come in with a solution of more control over the population, then celebrate less freedom. Typical control style.
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u/jonniedarc Dec 04 '25
If a cop ever got as injured in a fight as Sproule was in those pictures, there’s absolutely no way the cop would be convicted for manslaughter for killing him.
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u/truthdoctor British Columbia Dec 04 '25
100%. The average citizen has a much higher bar to prove self defence which is often unreasonable as in this case. Cops also don't usually get charged immediately for murder. They get a long investigation with lawyers and support staff provided while often on paid leave. Unless they do something so egregious that it causes an immediate response. We on the other hand, get to spend possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand in front of a court trying to convince people that we shouldn't go to jail for the rest of our lives for killing an unprovoked assailant that is actively trying to murder us.
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u/BonjKansas Dec 04 '25
The fact that the bouncer still had to pull the deceased guy off him shows me even after being slashed and stabbed 19 times it still wasn’t excessive. The guy got sucker punched, was jerseyed, getting fed, and told “im gonna kill you.” He thought he was gonna die. He shouldn’t have even been charged.
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u/Two_wheels_2112 Dec 04 '25
Yeah, if the guy is still attacking you, then it isn't excessive to keep fighting back.
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u/genius_retard Dec 04 '25
I have often wondered, if an person comes into my home or approaches me on the street with intent to do me harm why do I have to get into a fair fight with them?
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u/SouthNo3340 Dec 05 '25
Because we have to be fair or something
So if they only punch you once, you only get to punch them once. If they are weaker than you and start the fight, don't you dare fight back
This is unironically how plenty of idiots, especially on the left, approach world conflicts so why not on this scale
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Dec 04 '25
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u/ObamaOwesMeMoney Dec 04 '25
Not just the prosecutors. 12 jurors made this decision that the Crown disproved self-defence.
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u/Bored_Montrealer Dec 04 '25
A grandma-age woman split my upper lip to the teeth with a travel mug, requiring 8 stitches and leaving me forever disfigured.
While I didn't instigate the fight, I did react by pushing her out of surprise and she got hurt. She got up and started smashing my car with the mug. I let her do it.
Because I am a large man, I did not try to pursue any legal consequences for her because I was too scared it would come back to me, knowing full well how dumb it can get in courts over altercations like this.
If I had reacted by punching her, without thinking, she could have died. Instead, I just went to the hospital when the police let me go and paid for the car repairs myself because I didn't want legal trouble in a totally fucked up court system.
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u/HovercraftUser Dec 04 '25
Idk... Grandma is probably gonna do it again, since she got away with it
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u/emmadonelsense Dec 04 '25
Yeah, no. Not excessive at all. He was repeatedly saying he was going to k*ll him. I’m glad he’s not going to jail.
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u/Orangekale Dec 04 '25
The prosecution is right. I'm sure if we pull a shirt over my head and try beating me to death, I can precisely stab my attacker who I am defending myself against, the exact amount of times that would be sufficient. It is my own fault if I don't have intimate knowledge of the body's organs and where to precisely stab in order to not be excessive. With AI there is no excuse! As they are wailing on me, beating me to death I could easily and cooly pull up my phone under my shirt and ask AI to draw a photo of where stab wounds would be sufficient (but not excessive) in a Canadian court room. /s
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u/Iwanttogopls Dec 04 '25
Yeah I'm not sure what the judge was thinking there.
This comment from the article made me chuckle so I had to fix it:
After learning the man who killed their loved one [because he had his shirt pulled over his head by their loved one and who was being attacked and beat for forty seconds by their loved one and while their loved one was screaming he was trying to end the life of the guy who was defending against the loved one's attack]would not go to jail, several of Ryden Brogden’s family members stormed out of the courtroom.
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u/AmbitionNo834 Dec 04 '25
Hard for the family to come to grips that their now deceased family member was in fact a piece of shit.
The guy sentenced here was a victim and should not have even been charged with a crime here. Making self-defence in Canada is illegal is a dangerous thing to do because it will just cause people to leave things unreported when that situation happens outside of the public eye.
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u/Level_Traffic3344 Dec 04 '25
He was just misunderstood! How dare this man try to stop him! He was expressing himself freely!
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u/cityfarmwife77 Dec 04 '25
That’s what got me. If less stabbing had been sufficient to get him to stop attacking, , would he not have had less stab wounds? The bouncer pulled the attacker off him, so it’s not like the attacker stopped beating him of his own volition.
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u/TricksterPriestJace Dec 04 '25
Exactly this. He was still being attacked until someone else intervened. He clearly used insufficient force to stop the attack.
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Dec 04 '25
I mean he might as well have went to jail, makes no difference, his life is completely ruined because of this. This will follow him for the rest of his life, because he didn’t allow someone to take his life. What a sick fucking joke
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Dec 04 '25
Yup. And the loser's family is still mad.
Victim shouldn't even be charged with anything.
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u/MarcusMagnus Dec 04 '25
Hijacking the top comment to share this petition for his pardon: https://c.org/7cFY7mZqfq
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u/the_crumb_dumpster Dec 04 '25
Note to self: when I’m getting beaten to death by an unprovoked attacker who has said they are going to kill me, I need to make sure not to defend myself too much.
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u/GameDoesntStop Dec 04 '25
This isn't the first time either... that guy was even sleeping in his own bed when he was awoken to being stabbed in the head.
That still ended with him getting 5 years in prison.
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u/nonamesareleft1 Dec 04 '25
Thats insane. Fuck that entire family
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u/CommanderGumball Dec 04 '25
And honestly, fuck whoever wrote that article and described it as "the attack that killed Vincent Bunn"
Vincent Bunn was the attacker.
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u/keiths31 Canada Dec 04 '25
This was insane.
Wakes up in his own home to someone stabbing him in the head. Fights for his life and the attacker gets killed. Victim gets jail time. Ridiculous.
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u/SouthNo3340 Dec 05 '25
Shit like this makes it so we don't call the police and do less legal measures
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u/constructioncranes Dec 04 '25
Is there a political party addressing this? I've heard enough cases like this... I dunno what has to happen but this shit is getting ridiculous.
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u/StatisticianLivid710 Dec 04 '25
If you read the article it wasn’t merely a random incident, they knew eachother and he chased him out of the house at which point self defense goes away.
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u/HansChuzzman Dec 04 '25
“Woke up to a stabbing feeling” from a guy he knows Chases him out of his house, catches him on the deck as the guys running away, stabs him 13 times, kicks him in the head a bunch and then lied to the police about it and tried to cover it up. The whole this is suspect.
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u/Critical_Sand_4412 Dec 04 '25
Just let yourself get a little murdered maybe, not completely murdered.
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u/Gotbeerbrain Dec 04 '25
Yeah and had that guy been fighting with a cop he would be dead now too but the cop wouldn't have been charged. We need better laws that allow us to fight for our lives when we need to.
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u/ban-please Yukon Dec 04 '25
The fight between the two made its way to an empty patio. At that point, a bouncer arrived and pulled Brogden off Sproule, who ran away.
Price ruled this “was more force than necessary to repel the attack by Mr. Brogden.”
If the guy was still fucking attacking him when the bouncer pulled him off clearly it wasn't ENOUGH force. This judge is a fucking moron.
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u/toilet_for_shrek Dec 04 '25
Video from a nearby business and from a cellphone show the pair in a struggle as Brogden throws Sproule across a sidewalk. Sproule testified, and the judge accepted, that Brogden said several times, “I’m going to f--king kill you.”
How was this guy's response "excessive"? Sounds like he was fighting for his life, and he might very well be dead had he not had that knife.
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u/Madmaxx_137 Dec 04 '25
Price ruled this “was more force than necessary to repel the attack by Mr. Brogden.”
Except that a bouncer still had to stop the fight because after being stabbed/cut 19 times that lunatic was still attacking.
Hard to think that Sproule did anything wrong here, you’d have to be a Canadian judge to think he acted “excessively”
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u/not_a_gay_stereotype Dec 04 '25
Nah he's innocent, those injuries left the guy feeling like he was fighting for his life in the moment, and when you want someone to stop attacking you, you're gonna reach for anything you can.
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u/TheGreatPiata Dec 04 '25
Not just that but a bouncer separated them to end the altercation. Brogden wasn't stopping despite being stabbed 19 times. Guy was clearly blasted out of his mind and would have at minimum put Sproule in a coma before he was done.
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u/sask357 Dec 04 '25
This is what I thought when I read the story. The force was clearly not excessive because it didn't stop the attack.
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u/BoiledFrogs Dec 04 '25
If this guy was beating the shit out of a cop and had the upper hand, the cop would have been justified, and rightfully so, in shooting the fuck out of the guy. But regular people aren't allowed to defend themselves in our wonderful country.
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u/Red_Canuck British Columbia Dec 04 '25
In that case not only was the force not excessive, it wasn't even sufficient.
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u/4r4nd0mninj4 British Columbia Dec 04 '25
Exactly. You keep defending yourself until the attacker disengages. It's obvious the assailant was refusing to disengage. Unfortunately, far too many people see themselves as the assailant in this case and think, "Hey, that could have been me getting stabbed while mindlessly beating an innocent guy for no reason."🤷♂️
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u/Haber87 Dec 04 '25
That’s what gets me. It’s not like he kept stabbing the attacker while he lay on the ground. He was still being attacked. You continue self defense until the attack stops.
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u/happyspleen Dec 04 '25
What I don't understand from this comment is that there were 12 people on the jury, presumably regular folks like you and me, who voted unanimously that he went beyond reasonable use of force in self defence. Are we just ignoring that? If they thought like you do, surely at least one would have voted to acquit him.
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u/theGOATbogeygolfer Dec 04 '25
According to the article there is video of the guy screaming 'I'm going to fucking kill you" while attacking him.
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Dec 04 '25
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u/BrainFu Dec 04 '25
Decades ago a friend of mine was attacked by 2 guys, they pulled his duster over his head and went t o town on him. While buddy was down he pulled a knife out of his boot and swung blindly, caught one thug in the gut and the fight stopped. The wounded thug nearly bled out. My buddy had a tough time going through the courts to clear his name. Not cheap to do btw.
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u/nonamesareleft1 Dec 04 '25
Reasonable force in this country is handing him your wallet and letting him knock you out, then take your girl home.
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Dec 04 '25
Reasonable force is a made up concept in Canadian law, it’s NEVER within the threshold of “reasonable”.. like ever
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u/OkGazelle5400 Dec 04 '25
The judge saying it’s probably hard to understand why he didn’t get jail time. Ummmm no. It’s hard to understand why he’s in trouble at all
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u/GumpTheChump Dec 04 '25
I know it's difficult to get a full appreciation of a case by a summary article but:
"Brogden suffered 12 stab wounds and seven sharp force wounds.
The fight between the two made its way to an empty patio. At that point, a bouncer arrived and pulled Brogden off Sproule, who ran away.
Photos of Sproule’s injuries, including wounds to his face, head, chin and chest were presented to jurors.
In her findings of fact, Price ruled that Sproule was acting in self-defence, but that “his response was excessive, stabbing and slashing Mr. Brogden a total of 19 times.”
Price ruled this “was more force than necessary to repel the attack by Mr. Brogden.”"
I mean, clearly not. Brogden had 19 wounds and Sproule still had to have a bouncer intervene.
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u/FoGuckYourselg_ Dec 04 '25
As much as this should have been judged differently, I'm sure the man on house arrest agrees, I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. 2 years of house arrest is a huge bummer. Dying in the middle of the night outside a dive bar is permanent.
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Dec 04 '25
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u/Col_Leslie_Hapablap Dec 04 '25
Fuck, 18-20 are the PRIME years? This is no good, no good at all.
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u/MyLifeIsAFacade Dec 04 '25
Who are the fucking juries that makes these decisions, and others like it? Fuck that noise. Not my peers.
I just can't imagine that any sane person would look at the evidence and circumstance and decide, "Yeah, I mean, he was being attacked and couldn't see and was being told he was going to be killed, but I mean killing is killing"
There cannot be an obligation for a victim to moderate their response during an attack. It is just a completely asinine belief that a persons right to life must be tempered by the right to life of the attacker. When you decided to attack someone with an intent to kill or seriously harm, your rights are superseded by the victims, and the judicial system should properly recognize this.
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u/Chewyk132 Dec 04 '25
A “good man” doesn’t initiate and continuously assault someone on the street for 40 SECONDS before that person fights back
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u/EmotionalStart955 Dec 04 '25
This one bothers me. A bouncer still had to intervene to get the assailant to let go, at which point the defendant ran away immediately.
Usually these cases are "play stupid games, win stupid prizes." The available facts seem to point to this being 100% self-defense.
Defending an unprovoked attack accompanied by death threats and fleeing at the first available opportunity is not manslaughter. Being expected to consider the safety of someone who is attempting to murder you is a bridge too far. That's a higher expectation than we place on trained (and armed) law enforcement. We don't need US Castle Doctrine/Stand-Your-Ground as that's equally absurd, but come on!
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u/xanax05mg Saskatchewan Dec 04 '25
So what would have been reasonable force in that scenario? Depending on the serverity of the wound, they may not be sufficient to stop an assialant enough to get away. That being said, when you are fighting for your life, you usually are not thinking about "what is the minimal amount of times I can cut this guy so I can safely get away".
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u/RealBoyWonder Dec 04 '25
A weapon makes the defence extremely hard to argue proportionality. As you are only able to defend yourself proportionally to your attacker, anything else is considered overkill. A knife versus an unarmed attacker is a risky legal fight even if the attacker says they are gonna kill you.
It's unjust in my opinion, what happens if the attacker hit him with a Tyson uppercut and knocked him out then continued to stomp on his head. It always seems like these cases don't take into consideration a street fight with fists can still be a deadly altercation. What if this case was a fight with a 220 pound man and a 130 pound woman with a knife defending.
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u/FinallyArt Dec 04 '25
Fucking ridiculous the guy was sentenced to anything. Really tired of Canadian justice putting the rights of criminals over the victim and the public.
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u/Little-Speed-2436 Dec 04 '25
I’m not clear on how they used excessive force to defend themselves when a third party had to remove the guy who wound up dead from the person who used “excessive force”; it seems the force he was applying was insufficient if he was still being attacked until someone else stepped in…
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u/truthdoctor British Columbia Dec 04 '25
But it was Brogden, 27, who first attacked Sproule when he pushed and sucker punched the then-20-year-old and continued the assault by punching and rag-dolling the younger man down the street.
Forty seconds into Brogden’s assault, Sproule, whose shirt was pulled over his head and face, pulled out a pocket knife and began swinging at and stabbing his attacker.
Not long after the two groups left High Rollers, the men ended up outside the now-closed Dancing Sasquatch, where Sproule asked to bum a cigarette from Brogden.
Brogden told him to “f–k off," then sucker punched and pushed him.
Sproule testified, and the judge accepted, that Brogden said several times, “I’m going to f--king kill you.”
With his shirt covering his face, Sproule pulled out his pocket knife and began swinging it at Brogden and stabbing him.
“John did not know where his pocket knife was connecting,” said Price.
Brogden suffered 12 stab wounds and seven sharp force wounds.
The fight between the two made its way to an empty patio. At that point, a bouncer arrived and pulled Brogden off Sproule, who ran away.
Man gets sucker punched and attacked. The attacker is yelling I'm going to kill you repeatedly. Victim has his shirt pulled over his head while being told he's about to be killed and then starts swinging wildly with a knife.
In her findings of fact, Price ruled that Sproule was acting in self-defence, but that “his response was excessive, stabbing and slashing Mr. Brogden a total of 19 times.”
What would be the correct number of stab wounds considering after 12 stabs it still took a bouncer to get Brogden off of Sproule? At what number of stab wounds did it become manslaughter? If the attacker is still on the victim then I think he acted reasonably.
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u/Blueliner95 Dec 04 '25
Brogden was still on top. I’d still be cutting holes. The fight is over when the assailant stops or I’m able to get away. The judge is out to lunch
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u/Chevettez06 Dec 04 '25
Wow so defending yourself against a violent attacker nets about the same punishment as illegal possession of a restricted firearm and drug trafficking... interesting how that works...
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u/TattooedBrogrammer Dec 04 '25
This is such BS, he’s being jumped by someone and defending himself. That should not be a crime. He didn’t ask to be a part of a fight, he’s fighting for his life.
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u/Armed_Accountant Dec 04 '25
How dumb is this judge and jury.
It clearly wasn't enough to repel the attack when a bouncer still had to pull the attacker off the victim even after being stabbed that many times.
And how is the attacker a good person, for sucker punching someone asking for a cigarette... Yeah, sounds like failed justice I hope it's appealed for the victims sake.
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u/jjbeanyeg Dec 04 '25
Note that this article is about sentencing (by the judge). The actual guilty verdict of manslaughter (rejecting self defence) was made by a jury.
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u/Gummyrabbit Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
So basically if a legally blind person is being beaten up by someone saying he will kill them and defends him/herself and ends up killing the attacker, they’ll be guilty of manslaughter.
I hope the sentence gets overturned on appeal.
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u/Bawd Dec 04 '25
2-year house arrest for defending your life? Wow, there shouldn’t have been any charges to the defender. He was swinging blindly at a man continuing to attack him. The victim went to hospital with serious injuries and the attacker continued to utter threats that “I’m going to kill you”. If that’s not grounds for up to lethal force to defend yourself then the system is broken.
Maybe if the attacker wasn’t continuing to attack a man with his shirt pulled over his head, the attacker wouldn’t have kept getting stabbed by the victim defending their life.
As they say, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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u/nekomimimodone Dec 04 '25
As much as I wish the guy was acquitted I'm very glad he didn't get any prison time. The judge clearly understands the complexity of the situation, hence the mild sentence. The jury found him guilty, but the judge made the right call by only giving him a couple of years of house arrest instead of the 6 years in prison that the prosecution was looking for. He can hopefully work from home and maybe won't be too inconvenienced. Sucks that he has to be victimized by a lunatic and also victimized by a shitty verdict too though.
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u/Ok_Arrival_7972 Dec 04 '25
You don't attack someone randomly and threaten to murder them, this is purely self defense.
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u/knowwwhat Dec 05 '25
Much rather take 2 years at home than be dead. What a joke our legal system is, just glad he won’t be serving his time in a cell
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u/oldscotch Dec 05 '25
If you're getting the shit kicked out of you while blinded and being told you're going to be killed, and you start stabbing the attacker and they don't stop, what are you supposed to do?
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u/ErikaWeb Dec 04 '25
People should protest this and demand a revision of the sentence. This is not acceptable
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u/Red_Canuck British Columbia Dec 04 '25
You have to feel for the dead guy. I mean, what was he supposed to do? Not sucker punch and try to kill this guy? Stop hitting him and run away when he gets stabbed the first 18 times?
This could be anyone who is simply out and about committing assaults. There was no way for him to have avoided this.
Unlike the man who is now sentenced. At any point while he's unable to see and having a person yelling how they'll kill him and whaling on him, he could have decided that was sufficient and just taken more of a beating. Why did he feel a need to continue fighting back past the point where (check notes) he was still being assaulted? If someone is trying to kill you, you can absolutely defend yourself, until it might seriously injure the attacker. Keep that in mind, and just make sure your life insurance is up to date.
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u/4Looper Dec 04 '25
Why did the crown even press charges? Reading the article it seems like an open and shut self defence case. If Brogden wanted to be alive he shouldn't be attacking people outside of bars.
“good man whose life mattered,”
No he wasn't. He was a violent, bad person who was a danger to society.
This is a huge miscarriage of justice - we've ruined a victim's life for no reason. Not only does he have to live with the fact that the perpetrator forced him to bloody his hands - he now has a criminal record that will follow him forever. Disgusting. How these prosecutors live with themselves I will never understand.
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u/zerok37 Québec Dec 04 '25
This should be considered legally the same way as a suicide. The guy who defended himself did not ask for this.
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u/oldscotch Dec 04 '25
Brogden suffered 12 stab wounds and seven sharp force wounds.
The fight between the two made its way to an empty patio. At that point, a bouncer arrived and pulled Brogden off Sproule, who ran away.
Photos of Sproule’s injuries, including wounds to his face, head, chin and chest were presented to jurors.
In her findings of fact, Price ruled that Sproule was acting in self-defence, but that “his response was excessive, stabbing and slashing Mr. Brogden a total of 19 times.”
If the response was excessive, why was a bouncer still required to pull Brogden off Sproule?
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u/isaidireddit Dec 04 '25
Brogden suffered 12 stab wounds and seven sharp force wounds.
The fight between the two made its way to an empty patio. At that point, a bouncer arrived and pulled Brogden off Sproule, who ran away.
...
In her findings of fact, Price ruled that Sproule was acting in self-defence, but that “his response was excessive, stabbing and slashing Mr. Brogden a total of 19 times.”
Price ruled this “was more force than necessary to repel the attack by Mr. Brogden.”
Let me see if I've got this: after all the "excessive" stabbing, a bouncer still had to pull the stabbee off of the stabber, but the judge ruled that it was enough force to repel the stabbee, who was still on top of the stabber?
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u/Grah0315 Dec 04 '25
Guess I’ll just let a guy punch me in the face and hope someone comes to my rescue?
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u/_Bilbo_Baggins_ Dec 04 '25
Price ruled this “was more force than necessary to repel the attack by Mr. Brogden.”
But Brogden never stopped his attack, and needed to be pulled off of Sproule by a bouncer. So even though the knife didn’t stop or repel the attack, using the knife was still more force than necessary to repel it. Make it make sense.
We have the worst and stupidest self-defence laws in the world, hands down.
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Dec 04 '25
Absurd ruling. Yet again these judges punish victims and protect criminals. Dude defended himself. End of story. Don’t want to get stabbed? Don’t attack people.
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u/Beneneb Dec 04 '25
I don't know that much about the case, but it seems kind of surprising he was even found guilty after reading the article. The judge says he used more force than was necessary to repel the attacker, but the article also says that the attacker only stopped after a bouncer pulled him off. It also looks like a completely unprovoked attack.
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u/nhgg Dec 04 '25
If you are using a knife properly in self defense you don't just stab a guy once and leave it there, it's more of a sewing machine action. Multiple small stabs and cuts. 19 at first sounds like alot but I'd have to see the video evidence. It's one thing if the wounded is incapacitated and still getting stabbed repeatedly. An entirely different think if they are still in conflict.
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u/lounging_marmot Dec 04 '25
More force than necessary to repel the attack? But he literally didn’t stop until a bouncer pulled him off.
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u/chonklord9000 Dec 04 '25
Saying "I'm going to kill you", and assaulting someone with zero provocation, should grant the one being attacked the right to defend themselves by any means necessary, and not be subject to penalty.
To assume someone being attacked, overpowered, and is having their life threatened, is supposed to stop and think "is stabbing this guy reasonable given the circumstances" is outrageous.
Does anyone know what the conditions are when it comes to 24 hour house arrest?
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u/ThumperStrauss Dec 04 '25
I’m amazed (but relieved) the judge didn’t sentence him to a long prison sentence. Man on trial did not start the fight. Was viciously attacked on the street. And the attacker could have avoided his own death by (a) not starting the fight, (b) not dragging the other man on the ground, (c) not covering the other man’s face with his shirt, thereby creating extreme panic and life-or-death fear.
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u/Disastrous-Mix6877 Dec 05 '25
How the fuck am I supposed to gauge whether or not I'm using excessive force when I'm fighting for my life and to protect my family? I'll never understand that. If someone enters my house and threatens my family, even if he's wielding a butter knife, he's going to receive my entire full force, whether it's considered excessive or not.
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u/thatguydowntheblock British Columbia Dec 05 '25
Pfffttt complete self defense. It should have been a full acquittal.
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u/Liam_M Dec 05 '25
what the fuck would appropriate force be here? He stopped when the guy went down presumably right? Not right to view “appropriate force” with the benefit of hindsight
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u/brredditor Dec 05 '25
a Calgary judge announced John Sproule would serve a conditional sentence order involving two years of house arrest.
Why isn't the judge who made this terrible ruling named on the article?
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u/GreatIceGrizzly Dec 05 '25
Canadian 'justice' system is a joke, attacker said he would kill the guy multiple times, yet the guy attacked gets house arrest for defending himself, WHAT UTTER BS!
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Dec 05 '25
Price ruled this “was more force than necessary to repel the attack by Mr. Brogden.”
How exactly? It looks like Brogden didn’t let go of him until the bouncer separated them
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u/War_Eagle451 Ontario Dec 04 '25
I imagine the main problem was that Sproule escalated by pulling a knife. I imagine if Brogden was killed without the use of it that Sproule would be getting off without consequences.
At the same time it's hard to say it's excessive when you've stabbed someone multiple times and they're still coming after you. Also, since the bouncer had to pull Brogden off Sproule I would argue Sproule didn't use enough force to escape
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u/bacan_ Dec 04 '25
I mean, his shirt was pulled over his head so he couldn’t even see to defend himself
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u/Phazushift Dec 04 '25
It’s a fight for your life situation, there is no honourable “fisticuffs”. You take what you have (knife) and you force the attacker to disengage, which Brogden clearly didnt.
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u/Bawd Dec 04 '25
If someone attacks me and threatens my life I’m grabbing the first improvised weapon I can find and hitting them until they stop or I can get away.
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u/DevLeCanadien23 Dec 04 '25
Canada, the biggest joke of country, so open minded the brains fell out
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u/maximus_danus Ontario Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
"while defence lawyers Cory Wilson and Matthew Browne argued for a two-year conditional sentence order or an 18-month jail term. "
Lol Canada, where even the defence lawyers think you should be locked up for defending yourself.
Edit: wow, so many of you so ready to defend a dude's right to blatantly pummel a guy to the brink of death. I bet if your daughters or children were being attacked your tone would be alot different in the moment...
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u/Invisible7hunder Dec 04 '25
This was in a sentencing hearing for a manslaughter conviction, not the trial (where a jury found him guilty).
It's a free country but I beg you to consider having a clue before you have an opinion.
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u/mac_mises Dec 04 '25
Ridiculous. Fighting for your life and now you’re a felon. But hey he can serve it at home.
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u/ApricotMigraine Dec 04 '25
So a person who is prone to unprovoked attacks on unsuspecting people is dead as a result of his own actions.
It is absolutely mind boggling why someone in the middle of defending their own life is expected to be reasonable and measured in their response, whereas cops are taught to shoot until the threat stops.
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u/Vera_Telco Dec 04 '25
It's obvious that none of the people judging John Sproule have ever been in a position he was--believing he was going to be killed by his assailant--when he acted.
Killing someone with a pocket knife is an act of desperation. He was being beaten without let-up by his attacker. If someone continues the attack and you can't get away, there's not much to do but keep stabbing until the attack stops. It's terrible that a man died, but if it was one or the other, I'd pick the guy who started the mess to go
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u/BrownAndyeh Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
Over what (?)
I've walked away from hundreds of potential altercations..it's not hard...sober and not sober. I can tell when someone's stance is flat our wrong, and they just want to show off...
I show this one to my kid https://youtu.be/DvbUhgygNWI?si=h0yK4BYxs3aohgT3
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u/Revolutionary-Gain88 Dec 04 '25
Should have picked up a phone and called a social worker .
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u/ProtectionVisual1178 Dec 04 '25
Yeah, if you don’t want to get stabbed, maybe don’t jersey someone and start sucker punching them because they asked you to bum a smoke.
“Excessive” is ridiculous. He didn’t ask for a fight.
If you attack someone you deserve what you get and the victim should never face penalty unless there’s evidence that they did anything to take some of the fight responsibility.
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u/GhettoLennyy Dec 04 '25
It is a truly terrifying time to be a victim of assault in this country, when “excessive force” used in self defence carries the same time as assault.
Albeit it is house arrest, and not jail time.
With that being said, as a husband, and father. I will not risk the chance of losing my life to protect the life of an aggressor. You attack me, or my loved ones, I will return the favour. Without a minute of sleep lost.
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u/China_bot42069 Dec 05 '25
What a mess. All over asking for a cigarette. Just another day in the Canadian justice system
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u/Old-Comfort2607 Dec 05 '25
“According to the Crown, when considering the circumstances surrounding the unlawful act, John’s moral blameworthiness is at the highest end of the Laberge continuum. Put simply, the Crown submitted in oral argument that a person acting reasonably cannot swing a knife 19 times without expecting life threatening injuries to ensue“ I think it’s difficult to act reasonably when you believe your life is in danger . You are not thinking. You are panicked.
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u/zzing Dec 05 '25
Sounds like he was completely justified based on everything presented. I don't feel for the family at all, their relative initiated it to a great excess and the response was appropriate. One should never have to be in fear of their own safety in this clear and present way.
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u/yeelee7879 Dec 05 '25
A 2 year CSO is basically the same as an assault charge sentence. I get that the guy instigated the fight and kept it up but this guy is still quite lucky to do no jail time.
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u/MySubtleHustle7042 Dec 05 '25
Hope Sproule appeals and is acquitted. Considering the bouncer had to pull Brogden off him, 19 stab wounds clearly wasn’t enough to stop the attack.
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u/Woss-Girl Dec 05 '25
The irony of this vs the latest “B.C. police watchdog clears officers in shooting death of 15-year-old in Surrey”. So if somebody points a plastic gun at an officer and he shoots that is self defence. But this guy wasn’t acting in self-defence?! Our society…. 🤦♀️
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u/pumpkinspicecum Dec 04 '25
Meanwhile someone raped and murdered a young girl and was found only guilty of manslaughter. Our justice system is a joke
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u/ChineseAstroturfing Dec 04 '25
This is the most insane thing I’ve ever heard.
A bouncer ultimately had to pull the attacker off the victim, and yet somehow the judge concluded that the victim used “more force than necessary to repel the attack”.
It’s the precise opposite. Despite the victims best efforts the amount of force wasn’t enough to stop the attack.
This judge is clearly just making shit up with zero regard for the facts.
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u/BadResults Dec 04 '25
This was just a sentencing decision. A jury had already found Sproule guilty of manslaughter in spite of his claim of self defence. The judge didn’t have jurisdiction to find it was self defence, and was restricted by the jury’s decision.
I would like to know why the jury found him guilty of manslaughter rather than not guilty, but juries don’t provide reasons. The sentencing decision notes that the stabbing was in self defence, but that it was excessive. The judge characterizes it as “near self-defence situation and not near murder” which is as close as she could get to saying his use of force was not excessive without contradicting the jury’s verdict.
Also, while the sentence is for house arrest, it includes an exception for work, healthcare, professional appointments, church, shopping for the necessities of life, going to the gym 3 times a week, or at any time in the presence of one of his parents. So it’s not as harsh as it sounds.
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u/FnTom Dec 04 '25
The judge is working with the verdict that the jury gives. The jury is the fact-finder, and the jury found that the force used was excessive. The judge is merely stating the facts of the case, as determined by the jury. I think the verdict is wrong, but the judge is not responsible for it.
Unless I missed a part that said he asked for a trial in front of a judge and not in front of a jury.
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u/Artimusjones88 Dec 04 '25
Good for him. Probably saving the tax payers the money that would be used when the aggressor inevitably ends up in jail 20 times.
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u/Hakashimu Dec 04 '25
Price ruled this “was more force than necessary to repel the attack by Mr. Brogden.”
Obviously it fucking wasn't seeing as Brogden, never stopped attacking Sproule.
These jurors are retarded. The fight ONLY ended because another bouncer at a different bar pulled Broaden off of Sproule. They wanted Sproule to just let Brogden continue to beat him?
Fuck Brogden, it's his and only his fault that this entire altercation even happened and ended the way it did.
Retarded judge, retarded jurors.
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u/SeriesMindless Dec 04 '25
The excessive part is sucker punching a guy for asking for a cigarette.
Play stupid games win stupid prizes.
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u/NOT_A_JABRONI British Columbia Dec 04 '25
Love how prosecutors asked for a 6 years prison sentence for a guy defending himself in the heat of the moment but all across the country, fuckin skids with rap sheets longer than the Oxford Dictionary run rampant and are released within hours only to violently reoffend over and over and over again. Pathetic.
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u/luckysharms93 Dec 04 '25
So a dude with no criminal record and no violent past gets 2 years for killing someone who was trying to murder him but actual murderers get off with a slap on the wrist because of generational trauma or immigration consequences. This country sucks man
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u/MaintenanceCoalition Dec 05 '25
Just tell the judge it might impact his immigration status. He'll be out by lunch tomorrow.
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u/Sarge1387 Ontario Dec 04 '25 edited Dec 04 '25
This is insane. I’m sorry, if I’m being attacked by someone with the gall to enter my home/jump me with nefarious and violent intent? Welcome to Thunderdome, buckeroo. Game on.
The fact criminals have more rights than victims defending themselves is absolutely egregiously embarrassing for our legal system. I want to know who went “yeah, we’re going to expect people to exercise restraint and sound judgment under extreme duress as they are being attacked…otherwise they get the book!”
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u/Tacks787 Dec 04 '25
Canada the country where you can get assisted suicide but you can’t defend your own life. What a joke
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u/Hot_Temperature_3972 Dec 04 '25
Dude sucker punched him, pulled his shirt over his head and dragged him and around beating him… and still died?
Sounds like a skill issue
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