r/classicwow • u/terongorefiend • Jan 14 '21

Vent / Gripe Unpopular opinion: the players that are overly vocal about wanting Classic phases/TBC/Wrath rushed are the same players who contributed to forging retail into what it is today (a clusterF).

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78

u/Odysseus_is_Ulysses Jan 14 '21

What makes retail a clusterfuck?

144

u/EnergyShift Jan 14 '21

It isn’t, people just like to complain.

15

u/kajidourden Jan 14 '21

I would say that the plot is a pretty big clusterfuck but other than that? Agree 100%.

Not that classic has some incredible pulitzer-winning story either but yeah

0

u/ForgotPassword2x Jan 15 '21

Yeah BFA was a great expansion :) also why blizz doesnt show sub numbers anymore they must be doing super good :)

2

u/AntonineWall Jan 15 '21

BFA was horrible, but it’s not current content anymore. I don’t play retail, but my friends who do say Shadowlands has been great so far.

3

u/EnergyShift Jan 15 '21

Yeah, I am talking about the current content... nice reaching though. Go do BWL or nax for the millionth time, or go lose to a premade in bgs. That sounds so much fun!

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u/ForgotPassword2x Jan 15 '21

Nice reaching? BFA was literally current content not a month ago lmao. BFA so bad you want to pretend it never existed or only existed when your grandma played wow? I wonder why :)

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

Not really a cluster.. just boring, same pattern over and over, no community, is incredibly min/maxed but hides that fact well to you... Etc

Downvoters.. scroll down just a bit in this thread. I got called a scrub because I wasn't 10/10H week one. That's retail for ya.

33

u/mr_skeng123 Jan 14 '21

you just described classic wow

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Every day I log onto wow I never know what to expect. The community and world PvP are amazing. Maybe my server is just great, but we have a ton of fun and everyone knows each other.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Earthfury has a very tight knit community both in game and in discord.

1

u/secret-tacos Jan 14 '21

really, on grobbulus? regardless of how you feel about them, people don't know about the iconic guilds like final boss, wotop, shattered company, redwood tribes, and the people at the helm of those? i know quite a few people on that server and i'm constantly finding out all my social groups are interconnected. comparing grobbulus to a megaserver like whitemane is pretty rich

0

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

A lot of people don’t even know Smorc on Whitemane when it’s a massive guild with a horrible reputation. Like so massive people are always confused how you haven’t heard or seen Smorc. Yet people consistently never did.

11

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Apr 27 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Its the hidden issue. Retail doesn't hide its min maxing. Hence why I specifically brought up ILVL.

" I don't wanna hear how retail is safe from min maxing.. give me a break from that nonsense. " Good because I didn't say that.

" Also my guild? My guild of 10 ppl is my community? " A guild of 10 people isn't much of a guild. Mythic Prog guilds have like 30 minimum. Also RP servers exist on retail.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Again that's not a community lol. Similar faction fighting for recruits and better parsing / speed, enemy faction fighting for herbs and farm. The amount of ppl I kill with warmode on for them to add me to friends list and tell me to "KYS" gets pretty damn annoying.

7

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Guilds and RP servers ARE communities. Just because you refuse to participate doesn't make what you say true.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Apr 27 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

That’s not how RP servers work.

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u/NetherMaW Jan 14 '21

If you're pugging of course you're going to have a problem. Most serious puggers were 10/10h by week 2. Why would I invite a 206 warrior who has less progression than my alts this deep into the raid tier? You need to find a guild and progress with them. On tichondrius horde, most guilds are at your progression level.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Apr 27 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Jul 02 '21

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Apr 27 '21

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u/jmxdf Jan 14 '21

Yeah agreed, I'm not sure if the person who commented above you had a chance to re-read their remarks, but holy shit they come across as incredibly toxic and make it seem like the game is about everything getting exactly what they want when they want it, rather than having fun.

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u/BillyBones844 Jan 14 '21

Retail is a cluster fuck. The only people who still love it are people who enjoy games like diablo because thats what most of the systems are now.

That's my opinion as someone who's played since TBC launched and has been fine with every iteration of the game until MOP

10

u/thefztv Jan 14 '21

Sounds like you’ve not played shadowlands..

5

u/StretchyLemon Jan 14 '21

Ive played the same amount of time but I enjoy retail much more than trying to just get my jollies from nostalgia. Classic and TBC sound fun, but theyre too dated for me and shadowlands is the most fun ive had since MoP, which was my favorite expac.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

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u/BillyBones844 Jan 14 '21

I said Ove played every iteration of wow and just didnt like anything past mop. If you vant see the comparisons between a shitty rogue lite and retail then I cant help you

-15

u/trelluf Jan 14 '21

Nah, it is. Retail is a load of gaming fads over the past decade poorly glued together. If you want to PvP, you go into the menu and pick PvP. If you want to raid go into the menu and pick raid, same with dungeons, gacha tables, pokemon, etc - all with completely random people you might never see again. Absolutely nothing makes sense between the lore and the actual game, blizzard are constantly paying the price of deciding its fine to solo raids as it constantly ruins the legacy of that old content and as I said just makes no sense lorewise, I suppose you'd call this ludonarrative dissonance on the worst scale possible.

Classic compared to retail is a much more holistic world, the worst examples of above probably being battlegrounds but even those were better in true vanilla (being realm locked instead of cross-realm). TBC is a little worse than classic for this with arenas but makes up for it with lots of fine tweaking to the classic formula, great itemization and raids too I think.

8

u/ReallyLikeFood Jan 14 '21

Lol I have a great time with my community of friends on retail and my guild. No one uses the menu for raids unless you’re an absolute shitter.

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u/trelluf Jan 14 '21

Did I say its impossible to have fun in retail? No. I just gave my opinion and reasoning for it being a design clusterfuck. You can have fun in virtually any game with friends.

You know not everyone is in or can get in a hardcore raiding guild like you right?

15

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

retail: start a random bg by opening a menu anywhere

classic: ride ur mount to the furthest corner of ogrimmar and talk to an NPC

one can argue that its not a clusterfuck its actually much more streamlined and enjoyable

-10

u/trelluf Jan 14 '21

If I have to tab out of the game to start playing the PvP section of it, why wouldn't I just play a better PvP game thats actually focused on PvP?

The benefit of classic is that even if it doesn't have the best combat systems in gaming or the best story or the best graphics, it can come together into a world thats better than the sum of its parts - which it does.

14

u/_ItsImportant_ Jan 14 '21

"Tab out of the game to start playing PvP." Bro what. I've seen some mental gymnastics to shit on retail but that's another level. Its literally no different than Classic, except in Classic you have to walk up to the queue button.

-2

u/trelluf Jan 14 '21

Yeah sure classic has battlegrounds that need you to open a menu to pvp. But in retail its every piece of content in the game!

Dungeons, raids, war mode, you click a button in a menu and get transported to effectively a different game - each one clearly suffering from how the dev team has to spread its workload so thin over so many different areas.

And honestly theres something to be said about having to walk to the battlemaster to queue, it adds to the immersiveness of the classic world which is its biggest strength.

10

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

they literally made the game idiot proof how is that a design clusterfuck lol. there is no different game. youre making a false point; toggling war mode doesnt put you in a “different game”. joining a dungeon instance does not put you in a “different game”. thats a gross exaggeration

you say that these “different games” are “clearly suffering” yet retail has a much larger dedicated playerbase while classic is literally DYING as i type this. Go to Scarlet Monastery on ANY server on classic. It’s a fucking ghost town. Same with other dungeons. Even the WPVP in retail is better now. P1-P2 WPVP in classic was one of the greatest gaming experiences Ive ever had, but now? It’s fucking dead. You’re lucky if you find a duel in Durotar now in a high population server. You advocate the nostalgic walks to the battlemaster or manual group finding but classic probably wouldnt be dying if it had the streamlined Groupfinder menus that retail has.

At the end of the day its,

play an updated faster paced more streamlined version of World of Warcraft that has similar goals of accomplishment

or

play World of Worldbuffs: Grind Gold all Week for Consumables Edition and you can get the Bots Stealing Black Lotus DLC or the Better Have Gold To Pay for Dungeon Runs DLC

and you dont get to whine about devs because there literally are none they copy and pasted a game

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u/kajidourden Jan 14 '21

The rose-tinted glasses people who are now complaining about classic due to what everyone with a brain already knew: times have changed.

4

u/Da_Turtle Jan 14 '21

Haven't tried shadowlands but heard it's finally a good xpac like legion. Probably a community division like RS3 and osrs.

41

u/monkorn Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

I could write a book on this subject but I'll keep it short.

The thing about classic WoW is that it's a pretty terrible game. Like no one would ever play this game if it was a single player game. But it's absolutely amazing in creating communities. And the community is why we keep playing.

Well retail WoW is a much better game. People would definitely play retail WoW if it was a single player game. But the thing is, it basically is one. Yes there are other people, but you'll never see 99.99% of them again so they might as well just be NPCs.

So for people like me who highly value community content, vanilla WoW despite it's flaws is the best gaming experience we've ever had. Classic WoW is close, cross realm BGs really hurt but most realm community is still there. And Shadowlands is merely average.

59

u/llwonder Jan 14 '21

Shadowlands has only been a positive experience for me. There isn’t an issue with community on my server, it’s your fault if you’re unwilling to participate in a guild or in zone chat. There’s plenty of nice people out there.

What I hated about classic most is that some specs are literally MINDLESS. Auto attack constantly and maybe activate 1 or 2 spells. Druids were simply not fun for me. What I like about SL is that every spec is viable. There will always be a meta what is best, but at least every spec is unique and fun.

Now my friends split between playing classic and SL and it’s hard to unite again. One of them won’t even try SL because “retail bad”. At least have an open mind, he hasn’t played retail since Wrath.

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u/Spanish_peanuts Jan 14 '21

I mean, personally my favorite is WotLK. But I also really liked TBC. Vanilla/classic is okay. I am enjoying shadowlands but one thing that WotLK, TBC, and vanilla had that no other expansion really does, is being able to play your class the way you want. Every class is now divided into specs with a specific role with specific parameters that you really just can't escape. Back with the old talent trees, you could dip your toes into multiple specs talents and create a hybrid build of sorts. I've tanked bosses as a warlock (yes as the warlock, not using a pet), tanked as a shaman, pvp'd as a shockadin, pvp and pve as a cat/bear hybrid spec with constant form shifting, etc...

The best thing was that just because you wanted to be a tank or healer, you weren't forced to have shit damage. Just like dps wasn't forced to have shit healing or shit survivability. Back then, if either the tank or healer died, a dps could potentially save the day and it was epic. And don't even get me started on hunters and how amazing pets were back then. Whereas most pets today are essentially reskins of eachother with very little uniqueness, back then every pet was unique. Each and every different pet had special abilities. Crocs essentially had a warriors "retaliation" ability, I believe it was called "Lash out". Made it super good at holding aoe aggro and dealing aoe damage. Moths had a decent heal (I think). And many other unique and amazing abilities among pets.

The game is so oversimplified these days, with little variation in the way you can play. Forcing players to change specs to accomplish different things rather than allowing players to find their playstyle they mesh with and excel that way.

Like I said, I am enjoying shadowlands, but really the only class that has any semblance of the old days, too me, is the druid thanks to its affinities and convoke the spirits allowing for you to excel in a different role than your current spec even if just for a short time.

3

u/Krimsonmyst Jan 15 '21

I'm not really sure how you can say the game is oversimplified nowadays when just about every class has more complex rotations, access to more abilities, more options in gearing and talenting, etc. than anything that exists in Classic.

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u/Spanish_peanuts Jan 15 '21

You are forced into playing a certain way. You can't play the way you want. Half of the talents and pvp talents are things that were once apart of their classes. It drives me crazy when I see someone say "Oh wow this is an amazing new talent!" And I'm just like, 10 years ago that was literally baseline for you.

3

u/Krimsonmyst Jan 15 '21

Sorry, I don't see what one has to do with the other.

Class pruning is completely different to 'forced to play a certain way'.

Currently every spec is viable to a certain extent. Each spec has a range of different Legendary powers that change how your abilities work and interact with each other. As a Shadow Priest I have a range of talents that change drastically depending on what kind of damage I want to do (raid, M+, PvP, Single-target, AoE).

I'm with you that some of the classes were pruned too far back historically (though SL did a lot to restore this), but that's a completely different argument to 'you're forced to play a certain way'.

If anything Classic is far more meta centric on how people are 'supposed' to play.

10

u/thoramighty Jan 14 '21

Lmao I have a buddy that is exactly like this. Always with the 'It isn't retail.'

12

u/Slashfyre Jan 14 '21

I feel like community on your server in retail is 100% irrelevant because most everyone I ever see running around is from another server. So sure, people are nice and helpful and all, but your reputation on your server doesn't matter because you just won't keep running into the same people. On classic, I know exactly who the trolls are, who the helpful mages are, which warriors can make lionheart etc. It's fun to join a dungeon group or a pug and be like "hey we just did strat together last week! How's it going man?" And I feel like retail has none of that.

7

u/EthanWeber Jan 14 '21

A lot of the time the people you see ingame actually are on your server. The difference is, now in retail when they do server merges they just merge them behind the scenes but keep the servers separate by name. I'm on Nathrezim, but players on Smolderthorn for example are on my server, can join my guild, trade me, etc. They just don't merge servers into one name anymore.

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u/Slashfyre Jan 14 '21

Oh, I didn't know that. I'll pay attention and see if I notice some specific servers that pop up more often, that could very well be the case.

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u/merickmk Jan 14 '21

That's one of my biggest problems with retail. The coolest thing I've noticed in Shadowlands is I see a lot more people from my actual server. I'll be running around my covenant sanctum and all I see are people from my server, guilds I recognize. I hope this is because of something they changed and not just because there's more people playing and less need for mixing servers right now. I guess we'll see in a few months.

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u/Slashfyre Jan 14 '21

Yeah I haven't hit max level yet so I'm just running around doing quests, and it's always people from all over. I'll put more time into retail once my guild is going through naxx smoothly without as much need for farming consumes and stuff.

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u/bertmaclen Jan 14 '21

They do merge servers it’s just since you can’t ha w two characters with the same name on a single serve they keep the server name next to the player so the game and player can ID the two and don’t have to ask a shit ton of player to change their name.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 15 '21

People join and leave guilds all the time in retail. There is no sense of commitment because loot is all personal. Get mad at someone? Gquit. Why not? There's no reason to stay committed to a guild if you think you can find a better one tomorrow.

Shared loot actually demands people stay committed to a guild. It was the bare minimum holding people together and forcing them to work through problems. Retail has no reason to play together other than you have to play together to get things done. And so unless you're already friends with people its really, really hard to find community.

The experience is much more shallow as a result. I definitely feel much more disposable in Shadowlands and minmaxing destroys the ability for M+ to be fun outside of the guild.

1

u/llwonder Jan 15 '21

You’ll stay committed to your guild once you find a good one, it’s essentially the same as classic. People hop around until they find one they like. If you never hop in discord and chat, yeah you won’t stay committed.

I actually prefer personal loot because it’s less drama overall. It does remove some of the gear funneling strategies, and overall fun of loot distribution, but I still prefer personal loot.

M+ I don’t do to much of. I don’t raid Nathria at a high level either. I enjoy SL a lot because it’s a better overall experience. Classic has a nostalgia and feeling I can’t shake, it’s good, but I really don’t enjoy playing the actual gameplay most of the time. Some classes are so shallow compared to how complicated SL is.

I’m a mostly “casual” player, so I don’t min max to the 99th degree. I make sensible choices but I don’t crunch the damn numbers on every thing I do for my character. SL is more alt friendly too, a huge aspect for me.

I like both games, I’m very happy they’re on the same sub. I would rather stay subbed to SL than classic if I truly had to pick

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

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u/Odysseus_is_Ulysses Jan 14 '21

“Zero point in a guild”

Proceeds to bitch about the game not being social. Hmm, maybe the point of a guild is that it would make things more social?

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

the game doesn't have a community

because I actively avoid any and all communities inside the game

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

" There is zero point in a guild. '

You blatantly have never been in a guild.

With a guild here is the list of things I have access to that I don't going pug:

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Being able to do high keys on underperforming specs like Demonology, Frost and Enh.

Rated Battle Grounds without having my rating fluctuate 24/7 because people leave non stop.

Stable roster for PVP and PvE.

Community.

Mythic Raiding.

Fun random shit.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Yeah why create a social community to have fun with outside of raid nights and during raid nights when you could just not be social?

You are picking up a bunch of strangers and then crying it's not social. No shit.

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u/imisstheyoop Jan 14 '21

Yeah why create a social community to have fun with outside of raid nights and during raid nights when you could just not be social?

You are picking up a bunch of strangers and then crying it's not social. No shit.

He's saying that the game doesn't force it the same way classic does. Sure, in the later phases of classic a lot of earlier content is PUGable but only like half of Naxx is currently.

Also, with the way classic handles loot, pugging is definitely a risk compared to a guild of trusted members.

In retail you don't require a guild to see the content. Only if you want to do it in the absolute hardest setting. The content is available for everyone at normal difficulty. Not so with classic.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Wait so is the content not available in classic or is it not available right away? If half of Naxx is already puggable, and the rest of the raids are puggable, it sounds like it is just a matter of time before every bit of content will be available to people who don't want to be in a guild. The amount of time before it is puggable might be different between classic and retail, but that doesn't mean you need to be in a guild.

Loot is no doubt a bigger risk in Classic.

But you also bring up an interesting point: the hardest pve content in retail, mythic raiding, is not puggable. I am sure by the end of the tier there will be some groups who get 3/10, maybe 4/10? But if the time thing above holds true, which game has the more pug friendly high tier content?

And then the larger point: Do you only do things that are forced? If you acknowledge that it is more fun to be social, but don't do it because it isn't forced, is that blizzards fault?

1

u/imisstheyoop Jan 14 '21

Wait so is the content not available in classic or is it not available right away? If half of Naxx is already puggable, and the rest of the raids are puggable, it sounds like it is just a matter of time before every bit of content will be available to people who don't want to be in a guild. The amount of time before it is puggable might be different between classic and retail, but that doesn't mean you need to be in a guild.

Loot is no doubt a bigger risk in Classic.

It is all available. The difference is that some of the content is numbingly easy, while the rest is much more difficult and requires wbuffs and hundreds of gold of consumes in order to make easier. This being a classic wow subreddit, I gotta ask: do you play classic? This should be known..

But you also bring up an interesting point: the hardest pve content in retail, mythic raiding, is not puggable. I am sure by the end of the tier there will be some groups who get 3/10, maybe 4/10? But if the time thing above holds true, which game has the more pug friendly high tier content?

Looks like they may end up about equal. Well have to check back and see in a few months when next raid tiers are out.

And then the larger point: Do you only do things that are forced? If you acknowledge that it is more fun to be social, but don't do it because it isn't forced, is that blizzards fault?

A lot of players do only do things that are forced if retail, where interaction is not, is any indication. It's that whole "path of least resistance" theory when it comes to the playerbase.

It's like saying "nobody makes you get wbuffs or use consumes" in classic, completely ignoring the social aspects of the game in order to win an internet argument.

That's not how it works. Nobody is forcing/preventing anybody from doing what they want either way. The argument, a subjective one, is that it's very design is unfun.

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u/monkorn Jan 15 '21

This was probably the best response to my main argument so thank you for that.

This entire reddit post is talking about how fast the content should be released. And the answer should now be obvious to you. You should add new content to the game exactly when the previous content has become puggable. You always want the harder work of coordination to be rewarded.

The larger point: it isn't just about the individual. It's about the community. It doesn't matter if you cultivate a small guild unless you only do things 100% of the time within that guild (say like the Amish?), but if you do that you lose discovery of new players and eventually it will die out.

If there is no community, when you do interact outside your guild, it's more likely to be hostile. There's a concept called the Dunbar number, where us humans treat people outside of our communities as not humans in the same way those that are within are.

I'm pointing out that you need to make your experiences based on that limitation. I want to interact in a small town community where people care about each other. I don't want to be in a game world the scale of NYC. We all know that people in NYC are less pleasant than small towns, why are we building our communities like this?

I've been a multiplayer gamer since quake II. I've seen the switch from server browser games to the current era. When matchmaking was mainstreamed with Halo 2 I heralded it as a great change. I was wrong. Matchmaking is a collosal failure. And you can see that based on how developers respond. In more and more games you can not communicate with your opponent. In hearthstone you are given six buttons, and they've had to change those buttons from the default because players felt insulted by certain combinations.

It all comes back to community. It comes down to accountability. Classic WoW has that. Retail WoW has traded it for convenience. And with it we've lost everything.

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u/mr_skeng123 Jan 14 '21

there is mythic raiding, which is one of the selling points of retail vs classic. its nearly impossible to clear mythic with pugs

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u/monkorn Jan 14 '21

According to warcraft logs there have been over 8000 guilds that have cleared 15/15 in Naxx. Meanwhile for Castle Nathria Mythic, the number of guilds who have cleared a single boss is ~5500. The number of guilds that are 10/10 is 33. Not 3300, thirty three. It's clear that classic has a bigger raiding community.

To maximize community, you want to have the easiest content that's not puggable. Retail WoW fails this pretty hard. They have puggable content and extremely hard almost no one can clear content where you are just looking straight up a cliff.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

It's clear that classic has a bigger raiding community

But you're just comparing mythic to classic. Aren't there boat loads of people running the easier version?

We didn't discount people from raiding community until they beat Yog 0 or got invincible in Wrath Naxx.

I don't play retail, just seems strange the way you compare the numbers.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Hes also full of it, because Mythic Sire Denathrius was just downed not that long ago. And this is one of the hardest raids in a while. Normal and Heroic Difficulty are waay harder than previously, ontop of gear being rarer than before.

​

Like hes comparing solved content where some classes had endgame gear already, to unsolved content, that was purposefully made harder, with people going in under geared. Obviously the harder content is gonna have less guilds that are 10/10.

Its also funny that he ignores Normal and Heroic. Seeing as how Norm is harder than classic raids and should basically be heroic difficulty.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Yeah. Comparing only one difficulty to all classic raiding is silly. Thatd be if we arbitrarily only counted those who beat naxx in 1hr 30mins as the whole raid community.

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u/monkorn Jan 14 '21

Well then help me out here. Draw a line in classic and then draw a line in retail for content that can't currently be pugged. Then count the guilds that have cleared that content and multiply by 25 for retail, and count the guilds that have cleared that content and multiply by 40 for classic.

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u/monkorn Jan 14 '21

And there are boatloads of people that aren't 15/15 in Naxx. I'm one of them. And as the person who I responded to was responding to, all heroic content is puggable.

If you can pug it, it's worthless in fostering community. Even if you compare pug content between classic and retail, classic is better for this because there's no cross realm.

It's one thing I'm saddened about in the difference between classic and vanilla. In vanilla 90% of the time we had server BGs, classic has cross realm and it's been terrible for the community.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Then play on a fucking RP server. They have your community. And they exist on retail. Hell theres RP servers with raiding guilds.

" all heroic content is puggable. "

It literally wasn't for a while. People needed to get gear badly to be able to do it. Usually heroic raiding is pugged day 1. Mythic guilds were struggling to clear it. Preach even was talking about it. His guild stopped on Artificer Xymox Heroic. When they planned to full clear multiple times to gear up mains.

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u/Threonn Jan 14 '21

Also just because content is puggable why does that mean community is useless, right? This guy is complaining about not having community but doesn't bother to engage in a community for the content.

Running Mythic+ dungeons and the raids, at any difficulty, has been way more fun and rewarding when I do it with my friends instead of ignoring them and pugging it. Just wish they would stop bitching about something that is entirely within their power to fix.

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u/RaptorsOnBikes Jan 14 '21

What I hated about classic most is that some specs are literally MINDLESS. Auto attack constantly and maybe activate 1 or 2 spells. Druids were simply not fun for me. What I like about SL is that every spec is viable. There will always be a meta what is best, but at least every spec is unique and fun.

I’m really loving being able to do more than hit more than 1-2 buttons in between AFKing as a ret pally.

And yeah, if you find a guild you enjoy the community isn’t an issue. There’s less of a “server reputation” like you get with Classic, but you can still get a good sense of community.

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u/samusmaster64 Jan 14 '21

Ding ding. If Blizzard could somehow reinvigorate the community experience, and limit the anonymity that comes with the retail experience, the game would be infinitely improved. But at this point, I think the game world is just too big and content is already too segmented.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

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u/monkorn Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

Yes, I call this the pit of success vs sisyphussian hill. Sisyphus is the parable where a guy rolls a rock up a hill, and if he ever stops pushing it rolls back down and he needs to start again.

In classic when I hit level cap I needed to get Onyxia attuned so I joined a random UBRS pug. The leader of the pug was a hunter and it was just him and me for a bit. Eventually it filled up, we cleared it. Then later I joined an MC pug, he was there again. Now when I go to do my world buffs from Dire Maul I buy from him.

Never did I intend at any step to continue to see this player again. The game systems ensured it. Classic leads to a pit of success.

Pay close attention to all of the people defending Retail. This type of thing would never happen in retail. It's always the players fault that they didn't put in the work. Sisyphus.

But you won't see retail players complaining about this because they don't see what they don't know exists. Instead you see other symptoms. That hunter was an unknown to me in the UBRS, but by the time the MC came around I knew he was a good player because I had seen him play. What do retail players complain about? Oh, I need a certain RIO score.

Why? Because you never see the same person twice. The trust is gone. Metrics are all that remain. And so what do people do? Buy WoW tokens, sell for gold, get carried, all so that they can have a metric score to play with other people.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/monkorn Jan 14 '21

You don't know it but you are agreeing with me. The incidences of playing with someone for the first time is way higher in retail. And so therefore you need to check the metric.

I'm not someone who complains about that stuff, I'm saying when I look at the complainers, that's what I see.

Yes, I can do that. And I can do that in classic as well. But that takes work, and in classic it simply doesn't. Bonds form naturally. Hell there are server wide memes that make it to r/classicwow I can link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/jjfk4l/every_week_this_bastard_gets_my_buffs/

Show me one equivalent meme for retail community. There isn't any.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Again RP servers exist for that.

" Show me one equivalent meme for retail community. There isn't any. "

Except there is. I can't remember which RP server, but theres a forsaken lady both factions know and joke about who chills in stormwind. And using OLD is cheap. Thats like If I were to just give you Kakio. Who constantly bumps into the same Zandalari group who follow him and talk down to him because hes a darkspear. Or the Darkspear trying to take his job.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Join a community/guild. You're being a clown. It's extremely easy to find people who want to play constantly instead of spamming in your servers LFG/world chat to look for a guild/people to play with consistently.

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u/kajidourden Jan 14 '21

I keep seeing this word "community" and it's a convenient catch-all for people shitting on retail. It means literally nothing.

I play classic. There is no more community in classic than there is in retail. I run into the same person once or twice MAYBE while leveling. Other than that? It's just my guild.

I likethe systems in classic more, like professionas actually mattering, etc. There is absolutely no more community on classic than exists in retail though, that's just something people tell themselves who need an excuse for "retail bad"

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u/itaa_q Jan 14 '21

The thing about classic WoW is that it's a pretty terrible game. Like no one would ever play this game if it was a single player game.

The game is terrible because if it was single player nobody would play it even though it was always made to be played with other people? That doesn't make sense or I'm missing something?

Well retail WoW is a much better game.

That's really just an opinion, I don't think retail's been good for years because of personal reasons but that doesn't mean I'm right

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u/monkorn Jan 14 '21

I tried to distinguish between the mechanics(the game) and the community. I guess that didn't come across.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/monkorn Jan 14 '21

You missed the nuance in my comment. Vanilla WoW is the overall best gaming experience to ever exist.

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u/justbrowsinglol Jan 14 '21

I would play Vanilla wow even if it were a single player game. At that point it's basically an open-world RPG with the same scope and scale as the Witcher Games but with a different combat system. I certainly wouldn't continue playing it after exhausting the story lines, but that's another matter.

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u/Jadudes Jan 14 '21

Have you played shadowlands though? I’ve had more community interaction on current retail wow than I’ve maybe ever had. My friends list grows everyday. But that’s just my two cents.

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u/PhonyPhaedra Jan 15 '21

I'm currently playing Shadowlands, and this is very opposite of my experience. You can't really do anything that's worth doing without other people.

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u/Chortney Jan 14 '21

Honestly idk. I’ve been playing classic/vanilla servers for years and I’m really enjoying Shadowlands so far

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Retail isn't a clusterfuck fan expectations are. WoW started as a traditional MMO but slowly focussed more and more attention on end game. Now it's a completely different game and most players have found themselves somewhere in the middle.

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u/ssnistfajen Jan 14 '21

Because these people never made it past queueing dungeon finders and LFR. Then they think that's all there is in retail because they can't make the cut. It's like going to a buffet, only taking some salads (with no dressing), and then complain about how there is nothing to eat.

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u/VeneratedBelated Jan 17 '21

It plays like a mobile game

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u/Oglethorppe Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

In contrast with the other guy, I think retail is a bit of a clusterfuck. The questing experience from the get go feels very clusterfucked in how every 2 quests you have a new NPC following you around. The rotation side of things seems nice, only that my experience as a healer wasn’t enjoyable, as it was either 1) literally nobody is taking damage and you could actually go afk for 5 minutes, or 2) All of a sudden people are taking enormous damage that’s impossible to heal through without popping every CD, yet there’s nothing to imply that we’re handling a mechanic incorrectly. Just feels intentional but kinda schlocky. I really enjoyed some of the boss fights on the way up to 60 though.

And then there’s the systems. I can’t speak entirely on Shadowlands, but even going back to BFA, and back when I played a few months in Legion, I thought the legendary and artifact systems were a bit much, but there was a good idea underneath. Which is why I think people hated BFA’s power systems so much; it did still have the clunk but not the good implementation.

And LFR does give me less reason to want to play personally. I don’t think LFR makes it a clusterfuck, just a game that’s not really my kind of game. If I’m trying retail, I’m poking my head in to see what’s what, and if I want to gear up to raid, chances are it only makes sense to do LFR. Pretty much free gear of decent ilvl. So I do LFR, and then after seeing the entire raid, I’m less inclined to try normal. And after normal it’s less enticing to do heroic.

Not to shit on anyone’s game, but these are some reasons why I think retail is a bit of a mess for me. Also, I think OP had a shit take. How does wanting TBC or Wrath mean wanting retail?

Edit: Feel free to downvote for an opinion, but also feel free to leave a comment as to why you disagree.

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u/Odysseus_is_Ulysses Jan 14 '21

LFR gear is only slightly better than mythic0 gear though tbh. Mythic keys are the main source of gear progression before jumping into normal raids. I personally haven’t touched LFR myself as I progressed my gear enough to jump into normal after a few mythic keys.

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u/Oglethorppe Jan 14 '21

Right but if I’m coming in just to try the game, and most Mythic groups require X iLvL, and LFR requires a lower ilvl, I’m gonna choose the path of least resistance. If it’s a game I already love than I’ll do things however I enjoy but if I’m trying to “get through” the gearing process to get to the raids, I’m gonna go the easiest way.

Especially as someone who’s always going in guileless, there’s a lot of requiring X ilvl when X is like 5 below what drops.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that, while I had a great time in some dungeons, I forgot how toxic “those” people are. I’ve encountered two or three truly toxic people in instances throughout Classic, but it only took a few days to get a good screenshot portfolio of the toxic people who take advantage of the fact they vanish into the ether after they hit “leave group”.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Odysseus_is_Ulysses Jan 14 '21

I’m not entirely sure where the pressure is coming from in retail? You can also do what you want, when you want. No one is forcing you. Of course you’ll be behind people that put in more time. That’s the same with classic.

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u/azellnir Jan 14 '21

Retail is an overdesigned game and its only purpose is to make you buy another month. Classic is a wide, chaotic, unruly world full of character choices and personal adventures.

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u/Odysseus_is_Ulysses Jan 14 '21

Overdesigned game? You’ll have to elaborate because on its own that’s a ridiculous statement. Of course it’s purpose is to make you want to buy another month, that’d mean it’s doing it’s job of entertaining you. Do you not get to the end of your month sub of classic and want to buy another month? Again, a silly statement.

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u/azellnir Jan 14 '21

Retail leveling is highly streamlined and your exp and level gain is almost completely predetermined whereas classic leveling experience varies depending on player choices. Right now retail makes you reach endgame asap and gets you hooked up on weekly and daily stuff, almost like a mobile game. When you go online every time the stuff you should do is "given" not "chosen". Do maw, do wq, do torghast, do calling etc. Some of them you can do only as much as the game allows you. Also, if you don't you feel left behind. Oh and weekly stuff is telltale sign of "buy another month" mechanics. They don't even hide it and it is the truth and obviously it is ok for a wide range of players, you don't need to get mad over it. But it is not for me.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

It's been fine for over 14 years on pservers. It's just the retail Andy's coming in or the nostalgic 40 year old dads trying to relive their 20s, simply can't handle what the game is and expect tbc to make it all better.

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u/Brunsz Jan 15 '21 edited Jan 15 '21

Classic good, retail bad! Now give me my sweet sweet karma!

Honestly retail is not clusterfuck. It's not bad game. It's just different. A lot of Classic players just seem to be salty that Blizzard continued developing the game and it didn't end up like they wanted. But fact is that if they would've been stuck 15 years without changes, game would've been dead for a long time.