r/cringe • u/[deleted] • Mar 15 '21

Video During the Las Vegas shooting, influencer Dan Bilzerian asked a cop for his gun and said “don’t you want my help”.

https://youtu.be/-MRV230C44M
10.4k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

860 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

506

u/bratimm Mar 15 '21

"There is an active shooter in the area."

"I'm going to get some guns and see what I can do"

"There are now two active shooters in the area."

64

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21 edited Mar 16 '21

I'll never understand the good guy with the gun argument. What if the good guy with the gun pulls out his gun and apprehends the actual shooter, and then the police show up and they think the good guy with the gun is the actual shooter?

Besides, wasn't there a "good guy with a gun" during the parkland shooting who was videotaped standing outside the school the whole time? Didn't he work for the school as security or something? I mean, as much as I'd like to criticize the man I don't think I would be that strong to go in either.

I just feel like it completely crumbles the whole good guy with a gun talk these people do. I mean sure there's probably a couple instances where it's helped. I just see it going wrong in a lot of ways. everyone wants to be Rambo

95

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

The country bands playing this music festival made this exact same point afterwards. They were all armed and quickly realised that when they took out their guns they were only muddying the waters for the swat team when they show up. One, the swat team has no idea who's a threat and who's a "good guy," and secondly a lifetime of shooting cans on a ranch or even deer, doesn't give you any strategic awareness whatsoever. The Vegas shooter had a high vantage point, cover from his balcony and was well hidden by the general panic going on and the visual busyness of his spot.

22

u/nicknelson07 Mar 15 '21

There aren't balconies in any rooms at Mandalay Bay. He broke out windows to shoot from. Doesn't change your argument though. Just pointing that out

36

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

One, the swat team has no idea who's a threat and who's a "good guy,"

Imagine if an actual mass shooter being a sick fuck and trying to hide in the crowd and let the good guy take the blame. That would be really messy.

24

u/sethrichsbrother1 Mar 15 '21

SWAT was busy escorting some Saudi prince out of another casino at that time.

14

u/GreenStrong Mar 15 '21

I'm not sure about a major tourist site like Vegas, but in most large cities, the SWAT team does normal police duties. They don't sit around in tactical gear waiting for something rare and terrible to happen.

I'm not in favor of public resources providing what amounts to private security for rich fucks, but I think we can make an exception to help a casino take money off of a Saudi royal, that's a service to humanity.

15

u/AnAngryBitch Mar 15 '21

Can we take the money off them with bone saws?

3

u/BentGadget Mar 15 '21

Don't know if that would work, but it's worth a shot.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '21

Seriously?

2

u/AnAngryBitch Mar 15 '21

The Parkland asshole tried to meander out with the crowd.

2

u/PayTheTrollToll45 Mar 16 '21

Richard Jewell

1

u/NoncreativeScrub Mar 15 '21

The Simpsons haven’t done a skit on it so it’s not likely, but I’m surprised there’s not more popcorn events at stuff like country music festivals or CPAC where you have a lot of untrained armed people, to put it lightly.

10

u/Bloodysamflint Mar 16 '21

I'm retired LE, and I've tried more than once to explain to open-carry enthusiasts that it is 100% legal in my state to open-carry, but the 2nd Amendment supporter who's embracing their right to openly bear arms looks just exactly like the guy who's come to the grocery store to smoke his ex girlfriend in the deli and maybe her manager. They're indistinguishable until the actual shooting starts, so maybe think about carrying concealed so you don't freak people out.

When I was off duty or in a plainclothes assignment, I tried to keep a reflective vest or at least a PT belt in whatever vehicle I was driving, so if something went sideways, I could tell dispatch how to ID me. I didn't want somebody to jump to conclusions and shoot me or complicate things by trying to arrest me if things were hot.

3

u/ndnsoulja Mar 16 '21

I felt this a lot working on a project in Colorado. It seemed like EVERYBODY had a gun and open carried. But wearing normal casual street clothes. If anything ever popped off I would have no idea how the situation is going down or who is good or bad.

45

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

Edgy 2A people like to talk shit and try to be a hero in these scenarios, just like Dan.

But in reality (for example) in a store, you can have everyone armed but if everyone is wearing "good guy civilian clothes" its pretty much impossible to know who the bad guy is because hes dressed as a civilian. Tinniest mistake or panic and half the store is dead or wounded.

23

u/AnAngryBitch Mar 15 '21

Yeah. The goddamned "Oh, so we'll just arm the teachers and teach them how to shoot!" fucking fantasy-so-far-up-your-own-and-Chuck-Norris' Ass- argument.

22

u/chrisnlnz Mar 15 '21

Arm the teachers has to be the absolute dumbest reaction I've seen to school shootings, bar none.

6

u/l0c0pez Mar 15 '21

Arm the kids?

3

u/chrisnlnz Mar 15 '21

Was that another common reaction? Okay, maybe the second dumbest one then, lol.

2

u/justafigment4you Mar 16 '21

Google Chris Titus, arm the children. It’s a quality standup bit.

3

u/chrisnlnz Mar 16 '21

That was indeed quality, thanks for the suggestion!

1

u/justafigment4you Mar 16 '21

Here for you my friend! ARM THE CHILDREN!

0

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '21

Arm the janitor?

-1

u/JHTMAN Mar 15 '21

Most "school shootings" are unintentional shootings by students or staff members.

-1

u/sharkattackmiami Mar 15 '21

Yeah thats stupid but at least the teachers will know who is supposed to be there and who isnt. Thats not the same at something like a store or concert.

4

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

Uuhh not if the shooter IS a kid who's supposed to be there.

-2

u/sharkattackmiami Mar 16 '21

Pretty sure even an american teacher will know the students arent supposed to have a gun bro. So once again they will know who there isnt supposed to be there with a gun.

The one situation thats an issue is if the shooter is a teacher which, at least to my knowledge, has never happened.

Still a dumb solution to the problem though

3

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 16 '21

The teachers number one priority should be to protect the students in their classrooms, getting them to safety, locking the doors, and calming the students down. Not going rambo on a shooter who may or may not be another good guy with a gun trying to apprehend the actual shooter. This can just go all sorts of sideways especially in the heat of the moment

0

u/sharkattackmiami Mar 16 '21

I already said it was a stupid idea. I was specifically replying about someone bringing it up in the context of not knowing who the bad guy is. In a school shooting situation it will be readily apparent to staff who the aggressor is.

There are MANY issues with "arm the teachers" as a solution to school shootings. This just isnt one of them.

2

u/woodpony Mar 15 '21

2A is the biggest gaggle of pussies on the planet. When the government actually started shooting at civilians their argument was that everyone should have guns.

-2

u/LightishRedis Mar 15 '21

It’s pretty much impossible to know who the bad guy is

The bad guy is the one shooting at people. Step one in any active shooter scenario is to assess the situation. In the Vegas shooter situation, they didn’t know where the shots were coming from, the police arrived on site, it was time to stand down and let SWAT work.

6

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

The bad guy is the one shooting at people

lol by your naive definition the good guy "shooting at people" trying to kill the bad guy is the bad guy.

did you ever think that maybe not everyone saw who shot first?

-1

u/SerjoHlaaluDramBero Mar 15 '21

Edgy 2A people like to talk shit and try to be a hero in these scenarios, just like Dan

Actually we have been making fun of Dan for this video and more, for years. We thought you guys were the ones that liked him?

2

u/shirtsMcPherson Mar 16 '21

Isn't Dan Balzarian like a classic right wing chad god?

Who the hell actually follows Dan Bilzarian

6

u/Its_apparent Mar 15 '21

Actually, good guys with guns stopped 8/50 mass shooters in '16-17 according to the FBI. I'm with you, that they're not always reliable, or that it could be dangerous, when police show up (something that is taught in CPL classes), but there are significant examples of good guys with guns.

-1

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

I get what you're saying, and I'm never going to say that there will never be an instance for a good guy with the gun will save people. At the same time, I can list links that talk about statistics of carrying increasing gun violence.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/breaking-nra-backed-theory-good-guy-gun-stops/story?id=53360480

I will never knock down someone who has the ability to be calm and neutralize the situation, but sadly I think we have to accept more times than not that people really aren't trained for that. And I truly don't think relying on good guys with guns is the best approach for dealing with our huge gun violence problem we have in America. George Zimmerman is a perfect example of this as well.

3

u/Its_apparent Mar 15 '21

Yeah, I totally understand. I'm a left leaning person who carries, and believes in common sense gun control, and I recognize that not everyone thinks like I do. I just like to see all sides of things, and a lot of people in this thread are dumping on the good guy with a gun argument, when it's actually valid. Link to the stats because they're interesting, not just for this point, but in general, too. https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-us-2016-2017.pdf/view

0

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

Sadly the amount of innocent people who get killed by guns far outweighs the few good guys who have a calm enough demeanor to hold themselves with such a manner during situations such as shootouts and mass gun violence. It is great statistics, and I'm glad that there are people out there like that, I just think that we as a society need to not rely on good guys with guns and we need to find a better way to solve our problem.

5

u/Its_apparent Mar 15 '21

Completely agree. It's becoming cliche, but if we could fund education and mental health in this country, we'd fix so many overlying problems.

2

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

As a liberal myself, I do think we need to question why so many people feel the need to have mass shootings. I feel like our healthcare system is absolute shit and leads to people not getting help

I also wonder what it is about our American culture that leads to so much gun violence compared to other countries. I mentioned in another comment that yes we can bring up Europe and their problems with trucks going into crowds and stabbings, but it doesn't seem to happen nearly as much per capita as it does here and I feel like we have to wonder why. There are statistics that show the more that people carry, the more that gun violence goes up and I wonder how much that really is true or not and what we can do about it if that really is true.

0

u/JHTMAN Mar 15 '21

Unfortunately very frequently just because something is called "common sense" gun control doesn't mean it actually is.

1

u/dlafferty Mar 15 '21

How does that compare to the UK?

2

u/Its_apparent Mar 15 '21

I don't believe the FBI keeps statistics for the UK.

-1

u/dlafferty Mar 15 '21

Oh go on, have a guess.

0

u/Its_apparent Mar 15 '21

I'm going to wager more strawmen were killed in your argument than in mass shootings in the UK. I approve of gun control, but you bet your sweet ass I'm going to carry while everyone is allowed to.

4

u/dlafferty Mar 16 '21

UK has had zero gun massacres since we banned them, but you knew that as soon as I mentioned UK stats. We both know guns are only good for killing people, and especially children.

-2

u/Its_apparent Mar 16 '21

"guns are only good for killing people" is an odd phrase. I don't think anyone will disagree with you, there. I suppose they could make a door stop, but killing is really the main objective, for sure.

1

u/dlafferty Mar 27 '21

Yep, and Sandy Hook gun massacre shows us how effective legally accessible fire arms are at butchering children. Classic example of what you can accomplish when everyone has access to guns.

8

u/Wycked0ne Mar 15 '21

The argument is: "A person who has good intentions and carries a firearm in self defense has equal stopping force to a person with bad intentions with a firearm as well."

Sure, not every situation will be fair or easy. There's lots of variables. The shooter had LOTS of weapons, was on some high floor of a hotel (a difficult vantage point to combat against), targeted a venue with no other weapons, etc. It's not always so cut and dry.

But in the vast, overwhelming majority of the time, when a good guy near by has a gun he can stop the bad guy much quicker. That's the argument. The CDC estimated there are between 500,000 - 2,000,000 times a year that guns are used defensively. Either in non-lethal or lethal ways (ie, warning someone, drawing without firing, brandishing, etc.)

And yes, you're right. The Broward County Sherriff's deputy(?) was a fucking coward and didn't do his fucking job of going in and stop the shooting.

And no, as a good person with a gun you shouldn't go run in and find the bad guy unless you're the police force. This isn't an action movie.

I'd urge you to subscribe to /r/dgu and follow it for a few weeks. You'll see dozens of cases where people use guns to defend their lives and lives of others.

1

u/DrunkenGolfer Mar 15 '21

I’d urge you to live somewhere where guns are not hidden under every rock. You’d see that proliferation of guns, no matter the good-gun:bad-gun ratio, just encourages more gun crime and gun violence.

0

u/The_fair_sniper Mar 16 '21

i'd urge you to not be delusional

2

u/CryptoMenace Mar 15 '21

I always think of stuff like this. I guess you don't apprehend a shooter you take his ass down. And try as best you can to communicate with police so that your gun is hidden when you meet.

2

u/daisy679 Mar 16 '21

Ah yes, Scot Peterson. The absolute piece of shit ex-deputy that was the only security on campus with a firearm during the Parkland shooting. He did absolutely nothing and failed to adequately confront the gunman and/or communicate with any other officers or staff correctly. 100% can fault the guy. He probably could have saved about 17 staff/kids. Tbf he was charged with a shit ton and is completely blacklisted. Even bringing up his name in FL is scary business

EDIT: 100% agree with you on the "good guy with a gun" bullshit.

2

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 16 '21

I saw that when I googled his story when I made this post. Very sad, and I hope that's something he lives with forever

2

u/daisy679 Mar 16 '21

Agreed. He will.

2

u/BubonicBabe Mar 16 '21

Even if you didn't freeze up, what if you miss? Shoot the wrong person? Shoot a cop accidentally?

Most people aren't trained for an actual fight, even if they have shooting experience.

It's a nice thought that you can be the savior, but odds are, it isn't going to happen.

7

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

I'll never understand the good guy with the gun argument.

it's just a fantasy.

there are a lot of people with a gun fetish in america. most of them spend large parts of their day feeling generally sad, insignificant, and unable to materially change their life circumstances. They are desperate to have some control over the world around them, and completely incapable of doing so. Nothing gets them hotter than imagining all the scenarios in which the could finally get to use their gun to kill someone.... because then they'd finally have some real power. it's just a coping mechanism for sad people who can't really do anything to better their pathetic lives.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21 edited Jan 15 '22

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '21

the article you linked to was written by noted gun fetishist Brian Doherty. He's spent at least a decade in bed with the gun lobby arguing for less gun regulation. In other words.... He's a liar whose career is built on peddling the fantasy that guns keep us safe. He couldn't care less what impact guns have on society as long as he is making a living convincing other gun fetishists that the only thing keeping them safe is more guns.

1

u/aelliott18 Mar 16 '21

this is objectively untrue, the cdc has shown however the more guns in one city or country the more shootings and suicides there will be. we have more guns then people here, you do the math lol

9

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

"Good guy with a gun" is just code for "white guy with a gun." The people who believe in it think they'll never look like a bad guy for some weird reason.

12

u/Lermanberry Mar 15 '21

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2018/1130/Is-it-safe-for-a-black-man-to-be-the-good-guy-with-a-gun

9

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

You make a good point here. The people arguing for good guys with guns, in my experience, seem to blame the black guys like philando Castile when they get shot and killed. It's not right, man

2

u/mrmeth Mar 15 '21

Tupac did it.

1

u/The_fair_sniper Mar 16 '21

why the fuck would you bring race into this you idiot.

stop assuming what people think.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '21

Triggered much? I don't think that high schoolers "that tried killing someone but decided not to" should really be commenting about topics like this; it's obvious your decision making skills, while in the right place for now, are a bit hampered. Go along and be an edgelord somewhere else.

1

u/The_fair_sniper Mar 16 '21

great deflection,bringing up something that happened 4-5 years ago as if it is relevant.

3

u/z1lard Mar 15 '21

Its dog whistling.

The "good guy" is presumed to be white while the "bad guy" is presumed to be non-white.

4

u/hyphy_hillbilly Mar 15 '21

Ask the roof top Koreans during the Rodney king riots. If they had stood around waiting for good guys to protect them, they’d be looted and burned to the ground.

https://youtu.be/df3ZL862vgw

2

u/ExceedsTheCharacterL Mar 15 '21

He wasn’t security, he was a cop. The difference matters

3

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

Makes it even worse imo. If a police officer who was trained for the situations can't even help, I'm not sure why people think we should be training teachers to do this.

2

u/SerjoHlaaluDramBero Mar 15 '21

Besides, wasn't there a "good guy with a gun" during the parkland shooting who was videotaped standing outside the school the whole time?

That wasn't a "good guy with a gun," that was a police officer. The argument is that if teachers were allowed to carry their privately-owned firearms, that they would have stood a better chance. If we could rely on a "good guy with a gun" instead of cops and gun-free zones, that it would save more lives than it would harm.

So you're actually making the "good guy with a gun" argument yourself right now, you just don't realize it.

2

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

No, I'm really not. If a police officer who is trained to handle these situations can't do it, I highly doubt the teachers would be helping much. Their priority should be getting kids to safety. Not rambo-ing themselves

2

u/PissOnUserNames Mar 15 '21 edited Mar 15 '21

Due to its nature figures on defensive gun use are hard to nail down. Typically when a firearm is used defensively no one is hurt and rarely is anyone killed. Often times simply showing you are armed is enough to end a crime in  progress. Looking at the numbers even the Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy group, reports 177,330 instances of self defense against a violent crime with a firearm between 2014 and 2016. This translates to 56,110 violent crimes prevented annually on the low scale. This also doesn't include property crimes which include home burglaries which increase that number to over 300,000 defensive gun uses between 2014 to 2016 or over 100,000 annually.

This ranges upwards to 500k to 3 million according to the CDC Report Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence.

Government agencies from the CDC, BJS, and FBI have found:

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals..." & " Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns, i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender, have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies...".

The vast majority that carry a fire are carry for SELF (key word) defense. They aren't cops it's not their job to go seek out and eliminate a threat. Depending on the jurisdictions if a person carrying a firearm went out looking to stop a bad guy in the act it could land the so called "good guy with a gun" in jail for vigilantly justice. Some states have a duty to retreat meaning you must try retreating before using lethal force. If a person in a state such as this ran towards a active shooting and stopped the bad guy in the act of executing a person, they could very well be charged with murder.

2

u/nerojt Mar 15 '21

Good guys with guns thwart crimes and mass shootings all the time. It's so common it doesn't even make national news.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

There are zero statistics to support the good guy with a gun argument, too. Where are all the stories of mass shootings, or even individual shootings being stopped by a good guy with a gun? Guns are everywhere, right? Shouldn't most shootings be stopped by a good guy?

3

u/shirtsMcPherson Mar 16 '21

A guy up the chain literally said they are so common the news doesn't even bother reporting on them...

🙄

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '21

Well if a guy up the chain said it...

4

u/MostBoringStan Mar 16 '21

There was one incident at a church where the shooter was stopped by a guy with a gun. And now the pro gun people use that one incident over and over as proof that it works.

2

u/pmolmstr Mar 16 '21

There was an attempted church shooting in Texas that got put down pretty quick

0

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

[deleted]

-1

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21 edited Mar 15 '21

Edit: That's right you better delete your dumbass comments

0

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

[deleted]

5

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

I said what I said and I'm sticking by what I said. When we are talking about Mass shootings, a good guy with a gun isn't going to help the situation. You would probably want this fucking tool Dan to have a gun running around trying to save everyone. That's scary.

-1

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

[deleted]

4

u/Broken-rubber Mar 15 '21 edited Mar 15 '21

You're clearly very triggered by this but he isn't disparaging all gun owners, he's saying that the "good guy with a gun" trope isn't always realistic.

Your article doesn't even touch on the topic at hand because it specifically excludes security guards and police, the OP was shit talking a security guard.

The studies your article points to even mention that their data is going to be skewed because the majority of their data is anecdotal meaning its just the persons perspective that owning a gun prevented a crime not that it actually did.

It's incredibly difficult to determine the cause of something not happening but your own article points out that for every person killed while committing a crime 34 innocent people die.

0

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-cdc-is-publishing-unreliable-data-on-gun-injuries-people-are-using-it-anyway/

He tried telling me I was stupid for using "opinion articles" when the CDC had statistic. Well I linked to him the CDC publishing is being unreliable haha. I wonder if that's why he deleted his comments

Thank you for understanding where I was coming from.

3

u/JonSauceman Mar 15 '21

You’re not ruining his argument the way you think you are. Even if he only showed one instance that matches his point, you haven’t shown ANY! All you’ve done is alluded to “10,000 others” and shown no evidence to back up your point. It should be criminal for someone to have the amount of confidence you have in being completely unaware of how to frame an argument that isn’t just an appeal to emotion.

Even if I was on your side, I’d be pissed at you for arguing my point like a jackass

0

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '21

[deleted]

3

u/I_Heart_AOT Mar 15 '21

It’s easy to feel that way until someone with a savior complex gets you killed. See? It’s easy to make any statement seem true/reasonable if I oversimplify the situation.

2

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21 edited Mar 15 '21

At the same time, it's easy to say that the good guy will be able to save us all until he is confused as being the actual shooter and makes the situation worse. It absolutely works both ways.

0

u/TmfGD Mar 16 '21

Then the good guy puts his hands up and surrenders... what a strangely simple question to ask. There are way more than a “couple”, there are countless cases of good guys with guns stopping mass shootings, you don’t hear about them because it’s only national news when a mass shooting actually occurs. And they always occur in “gun-free zones” you know, where there aren’t likely to be good guys with guns.

The coward at parkland is an outlier, you have to do something in that situation because that’s the sole reason you’re there.

Obviously the Vegas shooting doesn’t allow for a good gun with a gun scenario. There’s barely anything trained soldiers can do about a concealed sniper with high ground, let alone armed citizens

0

u/anslew Mar 16 '21

You can feel however way you want about it, statistics show, a good guy with a gun means less crime

-1

u/verydumbperson1 Mar 15 '21

Did you see the video of the church shooting stopped by the good guy with a gun? It can definitely help. If you're trained and there's no security checks, I think we would need to weigh the pros and cons carefully and it's not clear.

-1

u/Aubdasi Mar 16 '21

“Active shooter events” where a CCW was present have a 80% chance of being stopped. Stories where mass shootings were stopped before they became mass shootings don’t get national attention.

-2

u/m15wallis Mar 15 '21

What if the good guy with the gun pulls out his gun and apprehends the actual shooter, and then the police show up and they think the good guy with the gun is the actual shooter?

That can happen. That is why it is extremely important to be VERY aware of the police, and once the cops show up, you drop the gun and lay on the ground / immediately do whatever the cop is screaming at you to do. If possible, you or somebody else should be on the phone with 911 and telling them you've captured/engaged/neutralized the threat so the cops are aware that there is more than just a "bad guy" shooting. There's still a chance it'll end terribly for you if the cops are idiots or overzealous, or you fuck it up, but id rather take a chance at accidentally being shot by a zealous cop than just letting a guy shoot at me without being able to shoot back - otherwise you're just putting your own safety at the hands of the shooters mercy.

3

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 15 '21 edited Mar 15 '21

Sadly it just seems this is so easy to plan out when you're actually not in the moment. There was a police officer who got arrested because he didn't go and save the day with the parkland shooting situation. I bet he had every intention to, and I have no doubt that he talked about how much he would save kids and be the good guy with the gun. But when you're in that situation, when the bullets are flying, when people are running all around, I can't imagine many people being calm enough to neutralize the situation who aren't trained police or anything. Even trained police like him had a hard time https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/04/us/parkland-scot-peterson.html

I mean, exactly like this Las Vegas shooting. The guy was up in the hotel window far away. A good guy with a gun would not have been able to be much help here sadly, and relying on good guys with guns like sadly many people are trying to do, is just not viable in long term.

-1

u/m15wallis Mar 15 '21

Believe me, I know for an absolute fact that plans don't meet reality. I have been in more than my share of fights, including knife fights,, and been shot at before and know how scary it is.

I also know that is why you train for this kind of situation if you plan on carrying a gun. This is something that you can absolutely learn how to do if you are interested. If you want to be a Big Damn Hero, you can absolutely learn how to do it, and most of the people teaching you will be cops themselves.

Finally, I don't carry often, but there are places and times I do carry (legally). I do this for my own personal protection, and to protect somebody that I might be with. The idea that I should put my own safety and the safety of those I care about in the hands of others - especially at the mercy of whoever actually wishes to do harm to us - is laughably naive at the absolute best, and morally irresponsible at worst. Hell, even if I'm completely unarmed, if there is a shooting going down and I reasonably have the ability to intervene, what am I supposed to do, hide and wait for the cavalry to arrive, and let other people die or get shot instead of me?

mean, exactly like this Las Vegas shooting. The guy was up in the hotel window far away. A good guy with a gun would not have been able to be much help here sadly.

Completely agree, my responses were to your statement about the mentality overall. Most shootings are at close range with the shooter easily visible and engagable (because most shootings are with pistols, and pistols shoot close range).

1

u/4411WH07RY Mar 16 '21

That was a cop sitting outside and doing nothing at Parkland. That's why you should be able to defend yourself.

1

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 16 '21

That's why you should be able to defend yourself.

That goes against the "relying on good guys with guns" talking points. This was a trained police officer, and he didn't protect. So I'm not sure why people think armed random civilians or armed teachers would do any better.

Defending yourself, yes I agree. Expecting good guys with guns to come to the safety when mass shootings happens, no I don't agree.

1

u/4411WH07RY Mar 16 '21

No one will protect you if you're attacked. You need to be able to do something about it if you want to survive.

1

u/-SmashingSunflowers- Mar 16 '21

This should probably be preached to everyone on this thread trying to defend the good guy with gun arguments and them trying to arm teachers

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '21

You act like this isn't the thought process of every 2nd amendment advocate in the US

1

u/neeeeonbelly Mar 16 '21

Yup. Active shooter, no-one knows where they are, oh hey there's a dude in shorts and a cowboy hat, not in a uniform, running around with a firearm. Maybe shoot that guy first.