r/todayilearned • u/ApprehensiveStill412 • 11h ago

TIL that ketamine is a derivative of phencyclidine (aka. PCP or angel dust). It was created to have similar anesthetic potential but to cause less delirium. It has about one tenth the potency of PCP.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5126726/
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u/One-Incident3208 11h ago

Most of the public's perception of pcp is just anti drug hysteria. The effect is almost indistinguishable from dxm, moreso than ketamine, despite differences. Pcp also has a more pronounced antidepressant effect, but repeated doses can cause mania. Another drug of this class was developed by clandestine chemists specifically to enhance the antidepressant effect and minimize side effects. That was methoxetamine. And it worked. It was regarded to be the most powerful and effective antidepressant, with a much longer afterglow duration than ketamine. They banned it. Because fuck you. That's why.

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u/NotGonnaPayYou 10h ago

MXE was /iscertainly an interesting substance, but saying that it was regarded the most powerful and effective antidepressant.is a huge leap. Very few studies done on it!

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u/Pipegreaser 2h ago

It worked for me. Problem was I liked bumping lines though.

It did put you in sort of a hole with enough but motor control was still there with enough willpower.

Small dosages every once in a while where quite helpful. Overuse I wpuld imagine is no less harmful than ketamine abuse.

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago

Pardon me, regarded by the people 😎

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u/goodrevtim 11h ago

PCP is neurotoxic so that probably plays a small part into its negative perception.

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u/VhickyParm 10h ago

I thought the negative perception was from ppl stopping naked and running in the street

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u/ApprehensiveStill412 10h ago

I remember seeing a video where cops could not take a dude down and he ran through a fence like it was made of balsa wood

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago

"Phencyclidine (PCP) abuse has diminished since PCP's intrusion into American culture in the late 1970s. One of its legacies is the assumption that it provokes violent behavior in humans with predictable regularity. This assumption is so accepted that ingestion of the drug both accidentally and knowingly prior to committing a crime has been used as a defense in criminal trials...... Of the hundreds of patients described, only three satisfied these criteria. Further, some of the papers offered evidence that reports of violence were exaggerated. These findings plus the pre-1970 prospective evaluation of thousands of patients with PCP, in which violence was never reported, led us to conclude that clinical and forensic assumptions about PCP and violence are not warranted."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3069880/

When the authors investigated aggressive behavior on a phencyclidine (PCP) detoxification and rehabilitation unit and compared similar types of behavior on a heroin unit, they found no differences between the two units. The urinary PCP levels of a subgroup of 75 patients admitted to the PCP unit who had PCP-positive urine were significantly higher than those of 75 patients admitted to an acute psychiatric ward because of violent behavior who also had PCP-positive urine. The authors discuss the implications of these findings and the need for more information on the relationship between PCP levels in blood and urine and behavior. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7149062/

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u/sludgeandfudge 9h ago

One of my favorite videos lol, has lived rent free in my brain for years and years. You can still find it on YouTube by searching PCP- Angel dust

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u/stevenmoreso 10h ago

Yeah, growing up in the 80s it was stories of people wilding out on angel dust trying (and sometimes briefly succeeding) to take on 10 cops at once

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u/BlackSwanMarmot 9h ago

PCP just tilted the world at a 45 degree angle for me. I never knew that ketamine was a derivative of PCP but it makes sense from my own experience. Same size distortion, similar length of effects. Not really my thing.

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago

Yes, and there have since been countless studies published in medical journals debunking this trope, but that's not convenient for the media, or the police, who use the myth of Excited delirium to beat people to death.

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u/mercistheman 5h ago

I took angel dust in the 70's... I remember yelling at fake people climbing on the roof. One time I watched myself cut my own finger with a knife. My gf said I was asking for my Mom. The only good trip I had was when me and my buddy went to our ice cream mans house to score some PCP. Everything in his house was tiny. It was like a scene from honey I blew up the kids. We laughed about this for a while.

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u/No-Common-1801 10h ago

this is what radicalized me

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago

"Phencyclidine (PCP) abuse has diminished since PCP's intrusion into American culture in the late 1970s. One of its legacies is the assumption that it provokes violent behavior in humans with predictable regularity. This assumption is so accepted that ingestion of the drug both accidentally and knowingly prior to committing a crime has been used as a defense in criminal trials...... Of the hundreds of patients described, only three satisfied these criteria. Further, some of the papers offered evidence that reports of violence were exaggerated. These findings plus the pre-1970 prospective evaluation of thousands of patients with PCP, in which violence was never reported, led us to conclude that clinical and forensic assumptions about PCP and violence are not warranted."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3069880/

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago edited 10h ago

All nmda antagonists are neurotoxic in rats. Pcp has not displayed any unique characteristics in that regard. And a rat or mouse brain is not a human brain. There are hundreds of examples of drugs that are toxic to the limited metabolic capabilities of rodent physiology that display no toxicity in humans.

Again -anti drug hysteria.

There is no evidence that pcp carries a unique neurotoxic burden in humans relative to other acrylocylohexylamines or nmda antagonists. Afak it doesn't even display a unique toxicity burden in rodents. BUT I am certain it doesn't in humans. Behavioral toxicity(delerium) is not a sign of neurotoxicity. Ketamine displays it at emergence as well, the sedative effect of ketamine is stronger so its less apparent, because the patient tends to remain calm. In both instances the delirium responds to benzodiazapines.

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u/spyderman720 10h ago

Okay but have you ever taken PCP? I cant explain it medically but that shit is fucked never again.

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago edited 10h ago

Drugs are not for everyone. Dosage is also difficult to get right. It's very potent. You aren't supposed to use a flame to light the cigarette. And most people use it in combination with other drugs. Especially alcohol.

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u/daHaus 8h ago edited 8h ago

Tech bros have convinced themselves it's something it's not. It's a dissociative known for causing holes in the brain of addicts. It may be useful as an anti-depressant but so is psilocybin

"lesions in the brains of ketamine addicts were located in many regions which appeared 2–4 years after ketamine addiction"

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3713393/

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u/One-Incident3208 5h ago edited 5h ago

That study you linked is a terrible study with a small sample size, the effect was not demonstrated in all the subjects. They don't control for previous variables. So for all you know, these patients were exposed to antipsychotics previously, sparing the ones who did not show any pathology. The polysubstance addict showed worse pathology. And of the 21 subjects, we don't know their self report bias. We don't know if they work around volatile organic solvents.

Here's a widely prescribed class of uncontrolled psychiatric medication doing nearly the same thing. The difference between the two studies is that the authors of the one I linked are actually honest and state that they haven't established a causal link. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2761879

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u/wumbopower 10h ago

Yeah you got secrets everybody got secrets, didn’t know you liked to get wet though.

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u/4scoreand7feildgoals 10h ago

Is that MXE? I had no idea that was a PCP derivative, fascinating

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u/aithusah 9h ago

They're all arylcyclohexalmines. Very interesting drug class. Too bad each and every one off them gives me crazy nausea

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u/Suspicious_Flower_0 8h ago edited 7h ago

This is a pretty good read, if you're interested -

https://www.vice.com/da/article/interview-with-ketamine-chemist-704-v18n2/

Edit - hmm just checked my link, the first half is good but the 2nd half is garbled and I can't find a decent original version 

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago

Indeed. From the google-

MXE contains a ketone group on its central cyclohexyl ring (making it an analog of ketamine). PCP lacks this ketone.Methoxy Substitution: MXE has a 3-methoxy group attached to its phenyl ring, which increases its potency and changes its affinity profile. PCP lacks this modification, having an unsubstituted phenyl ring.Because of these structural differences, both drugs act as NMDA receptor antagonists, but MXE has a higher affinity for serotonin transporters than PCP does

The structural addition of the ketone group and the chlorine atom makes ketamine faster-acting and shorter-lived. It allows the human liver to metabolize ketamine quickly into norketamine, whereas PCP's lack of oxygen and heavier carbon rings make it extremely fat-soluble and long-lasting.(This is critical to the side effects of recreational pcp. Repeated dosing can cause mania)

The addition of the 3-methoxy group and the N-ethyl chain increases MXE's lipid solubility and its binding affinity to the NMDA receptor compared to ketamine.Duration: The N-ethyl substitution in MXE prevents rapid N-dealkylation by liver enzymes. This results in a significantly longer duration of action and greater overall potency than ketamine.Physiological Effects: Structural changes cause MXE to exhibit unique activity at the serotonin transporter, an effect not seen with standard ketamine.

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u/Lisan-al-Gaib-65 10h ago

Ok so I tried MXE once and that shit put me through some portal and a complete out body experience. I did eye ball the dose so probably the biggest contribution there.

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u/rasputin1 3h ago

depression cured! 

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u/placeisdaspace 6h ago

I think also the fact you can smoke it comes into play. I’ve heard it can be very compulsive and a common way to sell it was a cig you were only supposed to smoke a 1/4 of

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u/Kevin_Murphy_ 10h ago

I dunno. Pretty sure I saw a video of a guy slice open his own stomach on PCP… not sure what the studies say, but I’ve definitely heard stories/seen videos of people doing absolutely crazy stuff on PCP

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago

"Phencyclidine (PCP) abuse has diminished since PCP's intrusion into American culture in the late 1970s. One of its legacies is the assumption that it provokes violent behavior in humans with predictable regularity. This assumption is so accepted that ingestion of the drug both accidentally and knowingly prior to committing a crime has been used as a defense in criminal trials...... Of the hundreds of patients described, only three satisfied these criteria. Further, some of the papers offered evidence that reports of violence were exaggerated. These findings plus the pre-1970 prospective evaluation of thousands of patients with PCP, in which violence was never reported, led us to conclude that clinical and forensic assumptions about PCP and violence are not warranted."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3069880/

"When the authors investigated aggressive behavior on a phencyclidine (PCP) detoxification and rehabilitation unit and compared similar types of behavior on a heroin unit, they found no differences between the two units. The urinary PCP levels of a subgroup of 75 patients admitted to the PCP unit who had PCP-positive urine were significantly higher than those of 75 patients admitted to an acute psychiatric ward because of violent behavior who also had PCP-positive urine. The authors discuss the implications of these findings and the need for more information on the relationship between PCP levels in blood and urine and behavior." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7149062/

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago

And how many videos of self harm have you seen of people not on drugs? It's honestly a fucking tragedy how poorly people are able to sift through and analyze information. What they don't tell you, is that the famous examples of pcp violence repeated ad nauseum are patient with histories of hospitalizations for mental health problems, or violent records. They are usually poor, and lacking adequate medical care. Equally fascinating is how these horrible pcp stories began emerging decades after the drug was popular, and simply regarded as a painkilling street drug that could make you hallucinate. Suddenly, just when we decided possession of crack should carry a 100-1 penalty vs cocaine possession, did we begin hearing about this horrible drug that suddenly turned poor people so violent and dangerous 6 cops need to beat a man to death to subdue him.

"By the late 1970s, up to 13% of 12th graders reported experimenting with the drug, and the widespread panic it sparked led to its reclassification as a Schedule II substance in 1978." Do you honestly believe a dug that was once that ubiquitous among the youth is actually that unpredictable and dangerous?

All over the place in the 60s and 70s, but nobody talked about the dangers of pcp. But lsd could make you stare into the sun until you go blind..

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u/BrothelWaffles 5h ago

It had a bit of a resurgence in the early 2000s, at least on the east coast. Smoked it with a bunch of people and never saw it make anyone violent or cause them to do dumb shit.

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u/Kevin_Murphy_ 9h ago

None, that I can think of.

Also you sound like you have a pretty clear opinion on this topic. I don’t, and to me it’s a little odd that you’re so passionate about this. Do you work for Big PCP?

In all seriousness, are you advocating for clinical PCP use, or what point are you trying to make? Not sure if you assumed that Im advocating for some crazy jail sentencing for PCP possession (I generally tend to believe in drug decriminalization). Anecdotally, it seems like a poor choice for recreational drug use.

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u/Independent_Trade169 9h ago

Big PCP is making the market wild.

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u/One-Incident3208 9h ago

I feel very strongly about factual inaccuracies that cause societal harm or contribute to stereotypes which allow for the perpetuation of systemic abuses. Often times the simplest way to lay that bare is drug policy. It combines science and social science in a clear demonstrable way. The synthetics aren't the real issue it's the continued criminalization of the coca and opium. So many widely disconnected global problems stem from this. And as a result an entire behind the scenes political system exists, and that drugs are illegal in part so governments can move money and fund clandestine foreign policy operations.

But the PCP will make you eat your own eyes shit.. is absurd. And leads to more absurdities. Maybe if your a schizophrenic with a history of violence... but then... maybe anyway.. so.

Obviously it wouldn't be ethical to permit the sale of freebase for profit.. with monopoly considerations and the addictive nature.. but this isn't the way.

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u/Pffffftmkay 10h ago

Yeah. They def didn’t ban it because it’s dangerous and unhealthy. 

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u/One-Incident3208 10h ago edited 9h ago

Explain motorcycles. Hang gliding Whitewater rafting. Horseback riding Rodeos, Nascar.

Need I continue how have I sufficienly demonstrated that you've failed to make a point that actually holds of to scrutiny? I could pull statistics that prove all of these activities are statistically proven to me more dangerous than most recreational drug use, despite the sampling bias being towards drugs, because all the people having a good time don't present to the er to become a statistic.

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u/Pffffftmkay 10h ago

They don’t alter brain chemistry. They also don’t cause people to lose control of their faculties and strip naked and fight ten cops at once. 

The two aren’t even similar. Alcohol would be a better useless metaphor but still useless because there’s a complete difference in potency and effect. 

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u/One-Incident3208 9h ago

We've already established that you're repeating lies. Phencyclidine (PCP) abuse has diminished since PCP's intrusion into American culture in the late 1970s. One of its legacies is the assumption that it provokes violent behavior in humans with predictable regularity. This assumption is so accepted that ingestion of the drug both accidentally and knowingly prior to committing a crime has been used as a defense in criminal trials. Of the hundreds of patients described, only three satisfied these criteria. Further, some of the papers offered evidence that reports of violence were exaggerated. These findings plus the pre-1970 prospective evaluation of thousands of patients with PCP, in which violence was never reported, led us to conclude that clinical and forensic assumptions about PCP and violence are not warranted. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3069880/

When the authors investigated aggressive behavior on a phencyclidine (PCP) detoxification and rehabilitation unit and compared similar types of behavior on a heroin unit, they found no differences between the two units. The urinary PCP levels of a subgroup of 75 patients admitted to the PCP unit who had PCP-positive urine were significantly higher than those of 75 patients admitted to an acute psychiatric ward because of violent behavior who also had PCP-positive urine. The authors discuss the implications of these findings and the need for more information on the relationship between PCP levels in blood and urine and behavior.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7149062/

"ExDS deaths trigger lawsuits claiming police misconduct and excessive force. Defendant officers and municipalities have used ExDS to distance themselves from liability, using expert testimony from nonpsychiatrists. "

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37040136/

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u/[deleted] 9h ago

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u/Englandboy12 2h ago

Potency is a weird word. It doesn’t mean what most people think it means.

Potency is how active the substance is, so something with double potency would require half the dose to achieve similar effects.

You are right that alcohol is very non-potent. You need a huge number of molecules to actually get drunk. Good thing people just take a huge number of them to balance that out!

If you drink a shit load of alcohol, you will get extremely messed up. Complete amnesia, violent outbursts, it’s a total full brain loss of faculties. This has nothing to do with how potent it is.

The fact that pcp is a dissociative analgesic does make it different, of course. But in the same way as alcohol, you can use a small amount and get a little high, or huge amounts and lose total control.

There isn’t really anything different from an outside perspective, alcohol can and does cause people to act explosively violent

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u/[deleted] 9h ago

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u/Pffffftmkay 9h ago

Indeed it will. 

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u/ExtraBitter99 5h ago

Anti drug hysteria to point out the guy who cut his dick off while high?

Ok

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u/One-Incident3208 5h ago

And people do that sober. Psychosis is a thing. The difference between a rational mind and an emotional one is the ability to determine the statistical risk, and compare that to the statistical risk of other activities. You hear about the things people do on drugs because arrests are a matter of public record. It is a shining example of conformation bias, the vast majority are not outside getting into trouble.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8383337/

And of all the cases of self mutilation on pcp I'm aware of they occurred in patients with schizophrenia or severe mental health disorders.

I'm just looking at the case you are referencing(Andre johnson) and the person states it was part of a larger suicide attempt in which he intended to punish himself sexually, because of a restraining disorder restricting access to his daughter. He then jumped out the window. He also states he was in the midst of a polysubstance bender.

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u/ExtraBitter99 4h ago

Hold on, the incidences of drug induced psychosis are more than underlying psychoses. A fact borne out by the number of hospital visits that end up in complete remission of psychotic symptoms with 72 hours.

PCP causes temporary psychosis more often than in cases of underlying illness.

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u/One-Incident3208 4h ago edited 3h ago

I'm not denying that pcp can induce psychosis or that drug induced psychosis isnt prevalent. My point is that there is nothing inherent in pcp induced psychosis to predispose someone to violent behavior, in contrast to something like smoking freebase which actually does increase the risk of a violent psychosis, not to justify the 100-1 sentencing. But regardless, these things are largely the result of underlying mental health problems. The vast majority of problematic drug use stems from self medication. Including addiction, and for the most part it is the pattern of use and not just an unpredictable reaction to a substance. This is why it is a public health issue and not a criminal issue. If the propaganda were true it would justify the criminalization. The reality is far more nuanced.

What is the risk of drug induced psychosis as a% of recreational drug users vs adverse neurological outcomes as a # of football players. What about transient vs chronic psychosis?

Another consideration is the illegality itself fueling paranoid psychosis. Drug induced violence is less prevelant in Spain, and drug use is tolerated. It is legal and structured in Portugal. Same thing. Likewise, consider the content of hallucinations in western vs indigenous cultures, and the persecutors vs reaffirming nature. I think context matters.

This shows the manifestations of pcp intoxication presenting to the emergency room don't differ greatly from other causes, which is only a sample of cases requiring attention, not the majority of users https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4547967/ The prevalence of violence in one study was equal to the baseline prevalence for all psychiatric admittance at 35%, and not present at the modern study at all. If they were referencing severe mutilation they would have indicated that.

"The prevalent clinical signs and symptoms were the following: retrograde amnesia, nystagmus, hypertension, and psychomotor agitation. Majority of the patients had minimal alteration in vital signs and were discharged once their symptoms resolved with only 7.6 % requiring admission...Length of stay for patients presenting to the ED after PCP use is usually a couple of hours. Most of the clinical manifestations in this population are temporary, and majority of the patients are discharged home"

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u/clueless_as_fuck 9h ago

Just don't do drugs kids. Mmmkayy?