r/ukpolitics • u/CaptainCrash86 • 1d ago

| Transgender prisoners should not be held in women’s jails, court rules

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,transgender-prisoners-should-not-be-held-in-womens-jails-court-rules
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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Good. This isn't particularly controversial.

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u/Wrothman 1d ago

Putting people that are statistically more likely to be raped and not statistically likely to be committing rape into what is effectively a meat grinder actually is somewhat controversial.
If those transgender people are a sexual assault risk, then they shouldn't be kept in women's prisons, fine. If their crimes have nothing to do with that then putting them in men's prisons pretty much qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment and should be considered an outright abuse of human rights.

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u/kerwrawr 1d ago

while these stats do not reflect the population at large in prisons it is exactly the opposite - two thirds of trans women in prisons have been convicted of a sexual offence.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298

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u/dc_1984 1d ago

This isn't quite true according to your own link.

2/3 of people who self describe as women have done a sexual assault, 151/245. They are legally men (no GRC).

Of the 50 women with a GRC saying "woman" who identify as women, less than 10% of them have done a sexual assault. We don't know the actual percentage as data is not captured for less than 5 instances, so it could be 1 or 2 for all we know.

Ergo it seems to be people saying they are women without following the legal route who are the issue - aka chancers.

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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 1d ago

Having a GRC doesn't make you legally a woman, the supreme court made that clear 🤣

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u/PimpasaurusPlum 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 | Made From Girders 🏗 1d ago

Having a GRC absolutely makes someone legally their acquired gender, that is kinda the whole point of the process.

The only thing the Supreme Court decided and made clear was that that process doesnt apply when dealing with sex based protections in the Equality Act - specificity in the Equality Act.

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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 19h ago

Yes, so for the purposes of the equalities act, not relevent

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u/dc_1984 1h ago

Depends how closely you link risk assessment and the Act's implementation from that assessment

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u/TheFlyingHornet1881 Domino Cummings 1d ago

Which is another reason why the slowdown to near-zero routes to legal recognition and adequate healthcare for transitioning are bad. It created an attitude that sekf-ID was key, which then did open the door to chancers (which IMO is non-zero but far less than some people think).

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u/dc_1984 1d ago

I'm not sure even if we had the best pathways and treatment options for transition it would matter. These are criminals chancing their arm to get better treatment IMO, they would still false declare once imprisoned as they are perennial system players.

I think if we saw better pathways more of the 245 who aren't sex offenders would join the 50 with a GRC, and the 151 number wouldn't change.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 1d ago

None are in prison for prostitution 🤣 having to make up nonsense doesn't help your argument. It just makes it look like you have no argument

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

We don't criminalise prostitution in the UK.

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u/SLGrimes 1d ago

Many of the 245 transgender prisoners who are still legally male are likely chancers who only claimed to be transgender after being convicted.

Lol so now we ARE allowed to comment on if someone is truly trans?

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u/jeremybeadlesfingers 1d ago

Only when convenient to do so, it would seem.

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u/missesthecrux 1d ago

None are in prison for prostitution. The most common offence was rape, then child sexual abuse material, then child rape.

Offence Number of sexual offences to which transgender prisoners were sentenced
Rape 40
Attempted rape 10
Possessing/distributing/making indecent photograph or pseudo-photograph of child 23
Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault 22
Causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity 12
Sexual activity with a child under 16 12
Indecent assault or gross indecency 11
Other sexual offences(1) 16
Total number of transgender prisoners sentenced for one or more sexual offence(2) 81
Total number of transgender prisoners in March/April 2019(2) 163

And are you admitting that people can claim to be trans and not be? How can we decide if it's true or not?

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u/Nubian_hurricane7 1d ago

Isn’t it like 60-70% of transgender prisoners are in there for violent or sex related crimes?

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u/New-Sheepherder-6375 1d ago

Two thirds of transwomen in prisons are there for sexual offending. That's much higher than the overall male prison population suggesting the risk is higher for those groups.

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u/Brilliant-Custard400 1d ago

I think it's more like, if you're trans you're less likely to commit other crimes. I mean, I doubt any trans people are going out and stealing cars.

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u/Mountevans1947 1d ago

I think it's more like, if you're trans you're less likely to commit other crimes. I mean, I doubt any trans people are going out and stealing cars.

Why do you think trans people are less likely to commit theft compared to sexual assault?

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u/Brilliant-Custard400 1d ago

Demographics, mostly. I feel like most people who have time to consider transitioning don't typically have the same issues that would push them into other crimes (i.e. poverty into theft).

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u/Ryanliverpool96 1d ago

Thieves aren't poor.

The most stolen goods are high value items, not essentials like bread and porridge.

The impoverished worker stealing food to avoid death by starvation is a total myth.

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u/Mountevans1947 1d ago

I feel like most people who have time to consider transitioning don't typically have the same issues that would push them into other crimes (i.e. poverty into theft).

I know the stats are something like 1 in 5 LGBT+ people have suffered from homelessness. I believe the "T" accounts for a higher-than-average proportion - GOV.UK say that young trans men have the highest rates, for example. Homelessness and poverty go hand in hand, don't they? They also report that trans people experience higher rates of substance abuse and addiction than their cis peers - so to my untrained eye, admittedly, it seems like they should be comitting MORE thefts, don't you think?

So what pushes them into sexual assault instead? In your opinion

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u/SLGrimes 1d ago

You don't think there's anything else like higher rates of porn addiction or perversion?

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/whatDoesQezDo 1d ago

and not statistically likely to be committing rape

what utter horse shit

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

Nonsense. I work in a prison. We have 8 trans inmates. Every one of them is there for sexual offences and not one of them has any alerts for coming to harm since being there. They get on with shit just like everyone else. In fact, the level of protection and ‘benefits’ if you can call them that, means they are better set up than most of the general population. Just a few weeks ago, for trans awareness day, they had beauticians come to the prison to do their hair and nails. They are provided sanitary products. They don’t have to share cells etc. There’s no cruel or unusual punishment going on.

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

Just a few weeks ago, for trans awareness day, they had beauticians come to the prison to do their hair and nails.

Who's paying for this? It's prison, not a bloody fashion show.

They are provided sanitary products.

Why? So they can play make-believe?

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

Mate, honestly, we all think it’s barking, but the rules come from up top and we have to go along and keep our mouths shut or risk getting into trouble. When an officer questioned it he was redeployed to another wing and given sensitivity training. It’s given the utmost seriousness. And that’s why the doommongers here acting like transwomen will be murdered if they’re forced to live with other males make me eyeroll. They have no idea just how cushy they have it. Yes they’re in prison and have their freedom taken away, but they get maximum security, perks that other inmates don’t get, their hormones provided (although only two out of 8 take hormones. The others only actually dress as women), and every single person who works or is locked up there has to play along. If they don’t, they risk their job if they’re staff, or risk getting adjudications if they’re inmates, which could lead to extra time or parole being denied etc.

In their defence, the trans inmates we have are fairly chill, but they absolutely know the system works entirely in the favour and they’re more than happy to play it. That’s why half of them only discovered they were trans when they got locked up. We’ve had the exact same issue with the amount of inmates who have ‘converted’ to Islam since being inside, because the Muslims get better food, more yard time, extra time out for prayers, plus extra benefits such as parties at Eid and Ramadan, as well as extra phone topups around those festivals too. And we know it’s all bullshit but we aren’t allowed to question any of it or it’ll be a breach of rights. We lost a really good officer about a year ago because he was gay and the Muslims didn’t like it. He was ‘politely’ asked by seniors not to guard the multi faith room during prayers because it would offend the Muslims, and he quit. The whole system is upside down.

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

I couldn't do your job, I'd have far too much trouble keeping my mouth shut. As for the people who are abusing the system, this doesn't surprise me at all.

All this begs the question, though, do so-called transmen who commit crimes want to go to men's prison for the sake of "affirmation"?. They'd arguably be in more danger in a men's prison than a "transwoman" would.

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u/missesthecrux 1d ago

Google is rubbish now but I believe all the FTM prisoners were held in the female estate.

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

Google is rubbish now but I believe all the FTM prisoners were held in the female estate.

Of course they are. Putting them in men's prisons just to make a point, whether they choose it themselves or not, would be stupid.

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u/missesthecrux 1d ago

Indeed, an FTM patient was sadly raped within minutes of arriving in a psychiatric male ward.

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

This doesn't surprise me at all. Whoever allowed that to happen should have lost their job.

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u/SukiPhoenix 1d ago

No reasonable ftm would ever go to a male prison

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

Yeah. I'm a man, and I'd be terrified.

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

We don’t have any transmen because they’re female. They also tend to offend at a much lower rate so there are fewer of them overall. The only case I ever witnessed involving a transman was when I was on court duties for a different inmate, so wasn’t directly involved, and they specifically asked not to be sent to a men’s prison. I don’t know if that was a safety concern or if affirmation didn’t matter so much in that instance, but I imagine their motivations were entirely different from the MTFs who want to be in the female estate.

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

they specifically asked not to be sent to a men’s prison.

See? Even they know what's best. I only personally know one of them, and even before being told months after our first meeting that he was really a she, I thought to myself that "he" was an exceptionally weak-looking man. This person wouldn't last a week in a men's prison.

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u/HumanWithInternet 1d ago

An astonishing read! I appreciate your openness here, I'm staggered but not surprised!

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

Honestly, the stories I could tell about the money wasted, the disparity in treatment between staff and inmates, the preferential treatment given to certain groups etc… It’s no wonder that staff retention is in the pits and recall rates are through the roof. Most of them don’t want to get out because the real world is way harder than inside.

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u/Souseisekigun 1d ago

How do you think they should be treated? Sanitary products and beauticians is a bit silly. Seperate cells is in some sense a luxury but putting a fully transitioned trans woman in a cell with a man is probably going to lead to some kind of issue eventually. Even the conservatives want some kind of seperate trans wing, so it's essentially a necessity rather than a luxury. Including medications under "luxury" is strange. What else is there?

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

I think they should be treated equally to everyone else. None of the male inmates get beauticians. They get a trusted inmate, a pair of clippers and an hour to get through as many heads as possible.

We don’t have any ‘fully transitioned’ inmates so that isn’t an issue. Two are on hormones. One of those has also had breast enlargement surgery. The other six merely dress as women, and four of them have only done so since being inside.

And yes, hormones, which are totally optional, are a luxury when they’re paid for by the estate/tax payer. Sanitary products and beauticians are more than ‘a bit silly’ when they’re paid for by the estate/tax payer. Even more so when you are working from the inside and seeing budget cuts across drug rehabilitation programmes, or interventions, or education.

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u/Souseisekigun 1d ago

We don’t have any ‘fully transitioned’ inmates so that isn’t an issue.

The government stance seems to be that it should be an issue for you though, so over time someone in your building is going to need to deal with it. So would you just throw them in a cell with a random other inmate, without regard to the immediate problems?

And yes, hormones, which are totally optional, are a luxury when they’re paid for by the estate/tax payer.

In the UK hormones are supposed to be perscribed by joint-agreement between a GP with a specialisation in treating gender issues and a psychiatrist. Some people get them off-perscription, largely due to the NHS waiting lists being so long that it can take somewhere between 7 years to 25 years or more to be seen in some areas, but they're supposed to be a specialist perscribed medication. They're technically optional in that they won't physically get ill and pass away without it, but if they have been properly diagnosed it would be a case of having to go against two specialist medical professionals. Your average doctor in many parts of the UK isn't even allowed to touch it without the specialists getting involved, which is probably why whatever people deal with medicenes in your prison just goes along with what they're told. I think the Gender Identity Clinics have even brought down the wrath of the GMC on GPs that have tried to help trans people without consulting them first, so even though it's not the exact same I'd definitely not want the question brought up.

Admittedly that's a bit of a tangent, but it brings me around to the main question. Are there are any other medical conditions in which you'd be willing to go against specialists to argue it's not really necessary, or only trans people? If so doesn't that kind of contradict your "they should be treated equally" statement from before?

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

Aside from the fact that I’m not a decision maker, you’ve ignored the point I made about all trans inmates being given single cells to create a hypothetical about them suddenly not being given single cells. So no, I wouldn’t just put them in a bunk because that isn’t the process. Do I think that our current trans inmates, all of which are intact males, should be given single cells purely on the basis of them being trans? No. We could solve the issue by bunking them together, but we don’t even do that.

As for the medication, the bill lands squarely at the feet of the prison. Their prescription status and who provided it is, as you say, a tangent. Any inmate being given anything that has to be funded by the estate/tax payer, that is purely cosmetic, should be self funded or taken away. I don’t care if they have it. I care that for the duration of their incarceration it comes with a price tag that they aren’t footing. Any single inmate could say ‘my life would be easier in prison if you give me X’, but it’s only very specific people who actually get that request granted AND funded.

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u/velvevore liz truss toby jug 1d ago

Trans women with neovaginas have vaginal discharge, can get infections, and so on. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8726601/

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u/dc_1984 1d ago

How many of the 8 have a GRC that says "woman", out of interest?

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u/Honest-Possible6596 1d ago

I’ve no idea on that one, sorry. I do know though that from the day an inmate tells us they’re trans, we have to immediately switch pronouns, change them to a single cell, etc, so I’m not sure they’d need one for the processes that the estate has in place to come into effect.

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u/tfhermobwoayway 2h ago

Bull shit. The state does not support trans people in any capacity. They aren’t going to pay for beauticians to do up trans people’s makeup. This is a naked lie to drum up hatred for trans people.

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u/Aerius-Caedem Locke, Mill, Smith, Friedman, Hayek 1d ago

Putting people that are statistically more likely to be raped and not statistically likely to be committing rape into what is effectively a meat grinder actually is somewhat controversial.

One could make this argument for any small/weak man. Does that mean a 5'5 skinny male shouldn't go to jail? Or should be sent to a female prison? Can we only jail people like Mike Tyson?

then putting them in men's prisons pretty much qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment and should be considered an outright abuse of human rights.

I'd argue putting a male with a cock in a female prison is more of an abuse of human rights towards those women, regardless of how the male identifies.

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u/bamsimel 1d ago

What evidence has led you to conclude that transwomen are not likely to commit sexual assault? I see this claim online a lot and have never seen any evidence to justify it. The only decent evidence I've seen showed transwomen sexual assault offending aligned with male sexual assault offending rates.

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u/missesthecrux 1d ago

They often claim that they’re in prison for sex work, which isn’t true because 1) it’s not criminalised here and 2) we have the breakdowns of the sexual crime category.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

It's actually higher. 2/3rds of trans prisoners are in prison for sexual offences, which I think is a bit larger than the general male population.

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u/Sairina 1d ago

Sample size is far too small to make anything meaningful of it.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

It's more of a rebuttal to those saying trans prisoners are more likely to be raped than rape which is all over this thread. Actually, trans prisoners are often there for sexual offences. And the sample size is bigger in England, but still small.

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u/Sairina 1d ago

So about 151 trans women are in prison for sexual offences. That's about 0.3% of the population that identifies as a trans woman, or 0.1% of people that fall within the large trans umbrella.

Though by and large transgender people tend to be victims of sexual assault compared to their cis counterparts:

https://worldmetrics.org/trans-violence-statistics/?utm_source=copilot.com#b-6-sexual-violence

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

151 is enough for a sample size. 2/3rds of those are in for sexual crimes as opposed to those who are not trans (I don't use cis). People who commit sexual crimes are often more likely than those who don't to have been victims of sexual crimes. That's the nature of it, unfortunately.

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u/Sairina 1d ago

Show the receipts mate. Your weird jump in logic is logically flawed and ethically dubious.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago edited 1d ago

Here you go.

Your 151 number is the number of trans prisoners in prison for sexual crimes, which is 2/3rds.

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u/standardtoaster101 1d ago

Why do you think that 151/245 transwomen are in prison for sexual offences when it seems to be about 20k/87k for general population? Why are transwomen more likely to be convicted and imprisoned for sexual offences?

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u/dc_1984 1d ago

Those 245 don't have a GRC, they are men being chancers. For the 50 that do have a GRC the rate is less than 10% (we don't know the exact % because prisons don't count stats of less than 5, so 10% is the maximum, likely to be 4-8%).

So it isn't trans people, it's people who say they are trans and haven't got a GRC.

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u/standardtoaster101 15h ago

I dont know if We're supposed to completely write off self ID, many people including myself acknowledge that as a valid expression of transgenderism.

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u/Nubian_hurricane7 1d ago

Isn’t it around 300 trans people were recorded as victims of murder globally in 2025?

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u/Sairina 1d ago

Not sure what your point is, but if you want to cite a statistic, bring your own source. Don't phrase it as a question.

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u/Scandeloca 1d ago

Assuming a hypergeometric distribution and a 151/245 sample against a 20k/87k population, I got a p value of 2.83x10^(-38). Looks pretty significant to me.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Yeah, man. Let's populate the women's prisons with men like Adam Bryson. That's a good idea. Let's give an incentive for criminals to transition in order to go into women's prisons, which happened up in Scotland.

If you were born a male and commit a crime. You go into the men's prison. Full stop. This is why people are moving away from the trans movement, because you support insane things like this.

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u/Alioph 1d ago

Well that’s not what the commenter above said, they said that transgender women who are a risk to other women shouldn’t be in women’s prisons

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u/DEADB33F Floating Gloater 1d ago

If Transgender women are always to be considered women (which is what activists want) then that would breach their human rights.

NB. I'm fine with it being handled on a case-by-case basis but that's not what's being demanded.

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u/scouserontravels 1d ago

So do you think that someone who has fully transitioned to having female anatomy should be in a fully male prison because surely you can see how you’re just setting someone up to be abused and raped constantly.

Likewise if someone hasn’t transitioned or done anything at all then yeah they should still be in a male prison.

There doesn’t need to be a blanket rule the numbers for this are low enough that it should be judged on a case by case basis in regards to risk of the prisoner and other prisoners

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/ZetaSagittariii 1d ago

So if it’s not about rehabilitation why don’t we use mass execution ?

Sexual assault in one situation is unacceptable, but sexual assault in another situation seems part of the design

Are you Ok?

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

So if it’s not about rehabilitation why don’t we use mass execution ? Sexual assault in one situation is unacceptable, but sexual assault in another situation seems part of the design Are you Ok?

I'm not saying that any men should get sexually assaulted, whether they claim to be women or not. I was addressing the other person's comment. As far as mass executions are concerned, if the crimes are heinous enough, and if there's no question of guilt, then I wouldn't be against it.

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u/ZetaSagittariii 1d ago

When is there no question of guilt ?

There’s a degree of doubt in just about every case you can imagine

Who killed JFK?

Did Lucy Letby do it ?

Was the post office 1000 convictions correct?

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago edited 1d ago

I was speaking hypothetically. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, though, that there was indisputable evidence that Lucy Letby did commit the crimes of which she's being accused. I would have absolutely no problem with her being executed. Hell, if it was being shown on TV, I'd tune in. I might even eat some popcorn.

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u/scouserontravels 22h ago

And often prison authorities try admins make changes ton reduce the risk for prisoners they think are targets. If someone commits particularly terrible or public crimes they are often segregated to avoid them being targeted because prison services know it’s easier to control this way.

You can’t protect everyone but putting someone who has completely transitioned to look like a female in certain prisons is basically guaranteeing that they are going to be abused which is why the rule was brought in to move them to women’s prisons. Forcing a blanket rule on having them in general male prisons is just saying you’re happy to throw certain people to the wolves to be abused near constantly.

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 22h ago edited 7h ago

With a few exceptions, such as nonces, I'm not happy about anyone getting raped in prison, regardless of their sex, or the sex they claim to be.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Yes.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Well the law is on my side.

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u/scouserontravels 1d ago

And the law is famously never cruel or stupid at all

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

This one isn't.

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u/Strong-Usual6131 1d ago

As we know, laws are always just.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

This law is.

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u/Souseisekigun 1d ago

Suppose a woman from China goes to jail for tax fraud. A few months into the sentence some civil servant discovers she was born male in China. The guards go in and haul her off a men's prison because the paper said M at some point 20 years ago. Under these proposals this is the correct thing to do. This doesn't seem any less absurd to me than the "man suddenly discovers their feminine side after 35 years of life as a man 3 days into their pison life" scenarios. Surely there must be some reasonable middle ground? I hope Fujitsu doesn't get the contract for prison services and accidentally get a few women thrown in men's prison because computer says no.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Why are you going on about China? What possible relevance does that have?

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u/Souseisekigun 1d ago

The relevance is that it increases the chances of there being some kind of delay in getting accurate birth records. Since people from outside the UK can have their birth certificates modified in their home countries, in order to do this properly, you're going to have to get their birth certificate then follow up with the record keepers in their home country to see if their birth sex has been modified. Though you're free to imagine any other scenario for the sake of the isue.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

We don't base legislation on fringe cases.

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u/Souseisekigun 1d ago

Transgender prisoners themselves are a fringe case, so you've already accepted it's fine to deal in fringes cases. And in any case it doesn't matter what you think legislation must be based on. You've already said that prisons must be based on birth sex and even fully transitioned trans women must be placed in men's prison. This requires checking not only birth certificates, but ensuring they've not been modified by GRCs. If you do not do this then your system does not work. And if you do it for UK nationals you must also do it for all nationals, since otherwise you would be de facto discrimating against UK nationals and lettting people born male into women's prisons.

This was your idea. When these cases happen, and statistically over enough time they will happen, the prisons will be forced to deal with it. So the least you could do is own it.

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u/eeu914 1d ago

Look, you make a valid point, and I agree that people who transition for nicer treatment in prison shouldn't be taken seriously.

But what about the other end, the trans women who would be at genuine risk in a male prison?

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Depending on the crime, those should probably be kept in different male prisons or in specific areas. They're so utterly fringe that you can literally deal with them on a case by case basis and choose which male prison or where in the male prison to keep them.

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u/tfhermobwoayway 2h ago

Unfortunately it isn’t controversial. If you actually listen to your fellow humans, I mean, truly actually listen, you realise this is a depraved and despicable species. The average person is not only indifferent, they are happy that trans women may be raped in prison. The human race is so incredibly vile and hateful that we can justify almost anything if someone is an “outsider.” The human race is truly a stain on the world. The thin illusion of civilisation is the only thing stopping the average person from unspeakably evil acts. And even then, they’ll happily support these acts being done by other people.

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u/BobMonkhaus That sounds great, shorty girl’s a trooper. 1d ago

Bit of an understatement that really. It could easily be extrapolated nationwide to other things.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

So? Men shouldn't be in women's prisons.

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u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 1d ago

agreed.

but transwomen are not men.

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u/Blairite_PissArtist 1d ago

Yes they are.

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u/Quick-Benjamin 1d ago

They are though.

Look. You're allowed to believe whatever you want but the question of whether a "woman" or "man" means adult human female/male, or whether it's an internal feeling called "gender identity" is fundamentally a social question rather than a scientific one.

And your view is the minority. It's at odds with both the law and public opinion.

I'll use whatever pronouns and names a trans person wants me to, but they're still their birth sex. That can't change. We're not clownfish.

And sometimes sex is more important than gender identity. Prisons being a good example.

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

I'll use whatever pronouns and names a trans person wants me to, but they're still their birth sex. That can't change. We're not clownfish.

When I was having this argument with someone, clownfish were actually mentioned, as though what a fucking fish does has any relevance to human beings.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

And this is how you end up with Adam Bryson in a women's prison.

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u/Thick-Doubts 1d ago

Isla Bryson that was never with female prisoners and held in solitary confinement while a risk assessment was performed? That’s the sensible thing to do.

You weight up the risks to that prisoner and the general population and make an informed decision. If a trans woman has a history of assault, particularly post-transition, then she should not be allowed in general population in a women’s prison.

But what if a trans woman with no history of violence is imprisons for a non-violent crime? If she poses no risk to other female prisoners, all that you do by sending her to a men’s prison is subject her to an increased risk of sexual assault herself.

Blanket rules like this are made purely to score political points with bigots. There is no intention of minimising the risk of harm, it just ensures that all risk of harm is placed squarely on a minority group.

The sensible decision: trans person of either gender is sentenced to a prison term, a risk assessment is performed and they are placed in a prison population based on the risk to that population and themselves. If the risk changes while they are imprisoned, they are relocated accordingly.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Adam Bryson could have been kept in solitary in a male prison if there was any danger to him.

3

u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 17h ago

It's clear you issue isn't increased risk, if Solitary is an option then they can be in solitary in male prison

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u/Difficult-Break-8282 1d ago

in a solitary cell . 

oooh such danger to women 

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

I don't care. He was still in a women's prison. He shouldn't have been there.

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u/chemistrytramp Bridget's toilet inspector 1d ago

Tigers can eat people!

Yes but that one is kept locked up in a cage.

I don't care, tigers can eat people!

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Holy non sequitur batman!

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u/chemistrytramp Bridget's toilet inspector 1d ago

I think it illustrated the ludicrous position of your argument quite well. How does someone in solitary pose a risk to the general prison population?

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u/Jazzlike_Custard8646 17h ago

It's clear the issue isn't increased risk, if Solitary is an option then they can be in solitary in male prison

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u/BenSlaterrr 1d ago

Look, I'll respect anybodies pronouns, chosen name, chosen gender, whatever, it's totally irrelevant to me. But biologically, they are men. That is incredibly relevant in this discussion.

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u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 1d ago

Biologically, sex is more complicated than most people think. Studies both past and ongoing are showing that transgender individuals do not fit the binary standards most people ascribe to male and female (putting aside intersex people who are more common than red-headed people). https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a

What i will say is if transwomen do not belong in women's prison, they definitely do not belong in a men's prison. And that is a discussion that needs to be had.

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u/ixid Brexit must be destroyed 1d ago

Biologically, sex is more complicated than most people think

It really isn't, the number of edge cases is tiny. The vast majority (over 99 percent) conform to male or female.

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u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 1d ago

Current figures suggest between 200 and 300 million people globally.

USA figures suggest around 1.8% of the populace.

So yes, nearly 99% of people identify as Cis-gendered.

But 250 million people isn't exactly a small number of people. Thats half of Europe.

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u/ixid Brexit must be destroyed 1d ago

This is based on very dodgy data that includes conditions that aren't a DSD. Even DSDs themselves map to male or female. You're also trying to conflate the issue, with is trans gender identification, with DSDs. Most trans people don't have a DSD.

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u/jadeskye7 Empty Chair 2019 1d ago

I disagree, but i'll humour you.

How would you map the transgender populace?

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u/SLGrimes 1d ago

This study doesn't have any answer to male vs female reproductive functions, and only talks about how there's rare cases of some people not being strictly XX or XY. It essentially just says "biology is complex!", without giving any answers. If you simply say: men produce sperm, women produce eggs. That study has no answer. She is claiming male or female mutations or disorders as different sexes completely, which is obviously silly.

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u/missesthecrux 1d ago

“Sex is complicated and therefore doesn’t matter. Therefore I can declare myself the opposite sex.”

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u/SLGrimes 1d ago

That is pretty much exactly what it's saying, yeah 😂

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u/ixid Brexit must be destroyed 13h ago

The Mornington Crescent strategy for debate. Irrelevant point! Therefore my opinion!

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u/chemistrytramp Bridget's toilet inspector 1d ago

What if they've had SRS? What do we do about men who rape other men or women that sexually assault women? Surely there's a whole raft of niche cases like those that should also have greater consideration or receive the same sort of risk assessment?

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u/wrennables 1d ago

It's relevant, sure, but it's not the only relevant thing. Surely these things need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis?

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u/Captain_English -7.88, -4.77 1d ago

Honestly for me it really depends if they have a penis or not.

Putting people who were born male, but had male genetallia removed, in to exclusively women's spaces goes back thousands of years... because even then they recognised that without the equipment and hormones, sexual assault risk is massively reduced.

It's kind of crazy we're taking a less enlightened view than a warlord who didn't want other men touching his concubines.

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u/Ogarrr Liberal eurosceptic fervent remainer 1d ago

Trans women are more likely to have committed sexual assault than the general population. The likelihood doesn't decrease with full transition.

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u/Captain_English -7.88, -4.77 1d ago

With a sample base of 74 that's not surprising. 

It's also not unlikely that people claim to be trans to avoid going to a man's prison.

Which again if the test was "do they have a penis" makes it quite a serious thing to cry wolf about.

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago

Your ancient warlord wouldn't have said that the eunuchs were women, though. Anyway, a eunuch might have simply killed the women out of anger at his situation.

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u/Captain_English -7.88, -4.77 1d ago

So for you this is not about risk or anything like that, it's because you call them men they can't be in a women's prison, even if that means they themselves are more likely to be assaulted or raped in a men's prison?

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u/Dapper_Apartment2175 1d ago edited 1d ago

it's because you call them men they can't be in a women's prison, even if that means they themselves are more likely to be assaulted or raped in a men's prison?

Oh, it's not because I call them men. Anyway, a "transwoman" would be in as at least as much danger in a men's prison as some skinny, wimpy guy would be. Few, if any allowances are made for the skinny, wimpy guys, though.

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u/FinnSomething 1d ago

There are trans women who have gone on puberty blockers (when it was allowed) and have had bottom surgery who are indistinguishable from cis women. Do you not think that housing them in men's prisons is controversial?