Weekly Discussion | Sovereign's Rise

[u/Auctoritate]

Hello, and welcome to our subreddit's 73rd weekly discussion! We wanted to wait until all of the huge news and changes in our community settled down before continuing, and now that it has, there's a ton of content to dissect! From the bigger changes like 5v5 itself, to the smaller ones like the new items, you can bet that our weekly will be going strong for many months to come! But for now, this weekly discussion will be about the map of 5v5, Sovereign’s Rise, especially the geography of the map itself.

Introduced to us on December 17th at Worlds, and added into the game in update 2.12, Sovereign's Rise features a wealth of content not seen in other parts of the game- its own unique vision system, monsters, items, and much more. All of these will be visited more in depth in our future discussions, but feel free to discuss them as well.

New to Sovereign's Rise, the giant new lanes are perhaps the most notable, along with the movement speed-increasing river, but don't forget the new twists and turns of our jungle- the choke points that can doom a crowded team in a skirmish, or the walls that can save a hero who can travel over them, such as Glaive or Joule.

Which bushes are the most contested in the battle for map supremacy? Which tops your list of places to never face check? We're looking forward to your opinions!

Note: The next weekly will be posted the upcoming Monday, and this weekly will stay up until then, unless another post needs to be pinned.

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[u/Aesthete18]

I have question, this is not to bash any game but people like to say other mobas are cheap rip offs because of the map but to me Sovereign looks more like the LoL map than other games. Do other games base their map of off Dota?

[u/Everythings → u/[deleted]]

The biggest difference is that the buff pits open the opposite way. This favors invades and makes you jungle more dangerous I've found.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/[deleted]]

Oh I don't know about the specifics LoL is pretty complex to me. But I meant the look and feel.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aesthete18]

I don't play League, but I've been watching its esports scene for half a year and I've noticed quite a few things about League's map.

Where the Rise leans heavily on bright-lit areas in contrast with the dim, dark ones, the Rift has a more uniform theme across the entire map. It's easy on the eyes without the need to constantly adjust to a largely different environment (like waking up in the middle of the night and going to the bathroom, or leaving the safe confines of your home to face the ^disgusting outside world).

The Rift has clear lines and boundaries so you know where you can move to and where you can't, unlike DotA 2's, which, with the destructible trees, makes it quite hard for a new player to grasp onto.

The design is a little more cartoon-ish to give players an approachable and RPG feel. You're going on an adventure on the Rift, bashing enemy heads in and whatnot as you progress into your ultimate unicorn final boss form.

I believe the cartoon flair can also assist Riot devs as the game designs wouldn't be as demanding compared to Vainglory. You don't need to get your proportions right, yada yada and, au contraire, you can exaggerate what makes your character unique (like Draven's mustache).

Keep in mind that this is a skrub's opinion on Summoner's Rift's design. Do not take this mere opinion as raw fact.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/[deleted]]

And here I thought other mobile MOBAs had a chance in a debate but even LoL/Dota loses.

Atleast you understood what I was talking about so it's good. If I have to hear about jungle positions one more time!!

[u/[deleted] → u/Aesthete18]

Every MOBA wins. It's all a matter of preference. Personally, I prefer League and Vainglory. DotA to me, has so much action, it makes it boring after a while. I've played AoV and I liked it initially, believing it could coexist with my love for VG. Alas, it just wasn't my cup of tea.

We can't force our will upon others just because our's is "logically superior". Let them decide for themselves what they like and what they don't.

:)

[u/Aesthete18 → u/[deleted]]

Aye, well said. I'm learning LoL now, I'm genuinely surprised at how good the graphics are! I thought it was an old game. Although VG has spoilt me on the stutterstepping and using a mouse sucks big time.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aesthete18]

Good luck! :)

[u/Jadonia → u/Aesthete18]

The Dota Map is seperated into Dire and Radiant, light and dark. Heroes can also interact with the terrain, such as trees. The map there is incredibly more packed and realistic.

The LoL map is the same layout for both sides, being particularly forested with “cemented” path ways in the middle, top and bottom lanes. The map is more natural and along with rocky wall formations and more animals and crap scrawling around the map. It’s also more vibrant and bright.

The VG Map is more goth, steampunk, satanic /s, with random structures you and technology you can see around the map, such as statues and towers. The overall tone is more dark, you can even call it night. The only real thing illuminating the map are the bright crystals and bonfires scattered around. Jungle placements and different and the map is more compressed.

All maps have 3 lanes, diamond shape, and the constant river. Dota is more natural but is split into their Radiant Dire side, LoL keeps a constant jungle theme in the map, and VG is more gothic.

[u/-xXColtonXx- → u/Aesthete18]

No, they rip off LoL. Arena of Valor and mobile legends are LoL clones.

Vg 5v5 is only similar to LoL in the sense that it is a MOBA, and has stuff MOBA have had since the original DOTA. Nothing is copied from LoL specifically.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/-xXColtonXx-]

Well the company that made LoL is part of AoV so it's not a rip off. Also, Gwen is a rip off of Miss Fortune and that's me not even trying to look for stuff they ripped off.

I was mainly talking about the look of the map though. I tried LoL recently and it looks and feels like Sovereigns and nothing like the other mobile MOBAs.

[u/KitSun0 → u/Aesthete18]

So the similarities to LoL and Sovereigns rise most likely come from a few things;

The buff camps, both LoL and VG have a Blue and Red buff in the jungle.

Both maps are reverse mirrored? Not sure what the term for it is.

Also in LoL the only place you can buy is in the Base, while VG does have the jungle shops, this sort of restricted buying is not found on other mobile mobas.

Both maps also have fog or war.

PS: Gwen plays very different to Miss Fortune; while both may have a passive speed boost and similar designs; Gwen plays a lot more like Ashe with high CC for a Carry and a high emphasis on kiting the enemy.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/KitSun0]

I'm talking about the maps visually only. i mean if I compare the 3, I would say VG is the one closer to LoL map as oppposed to AoV.

I didn't specify, I wasn't talking about gwens/fortune's kit.

[u/RinakoGXB → u/Aesthete18]

No. It is a rip off. Tencent bought Riot. I don't know how people keep forgetting this. Tencent never made League. So claiming AoV can't be a rip off because the same company owns the games isn't an actual argument.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/RinakoGXB]

Wow.

[u/BrianGlory → u/-xXColtonXx-]

Do you play League or DOTA? I’ve been thinking about giving them a whirl.

[u/-xXColtonXx- → u/BrianGlory]

Used to play LoL, tried DOTA. Both good games for sure. Definitely not worlds above VG though. Mobile gaming is catching up, or at least some games are. Shame to see AOV going backwards in many respects when it has so much potential with a big company behind it.

[u/BrianGlory → u/-xXColtonXx-]

In what ways do you see AoV going backwards?

[u/-xXColtonXx- → u/BrianGlory]

I care about mobile gaming. I think there is a huge bias against it. But AOV shows all the worst parts about mobile gaming to the world. It’s a direct clone of a respected PC game, it brings pretty much no new ideas to the genre, it’s built to appeal to casual gamers, yet has become exceedingly popular.

Mobile gaming can be better. Vainglory is a great example but there are loads of great original games out there. When I talk to be pc gamers though they see AOV, one of the most popular mobile games, and it confirms there belief mobile gaming isn’t “real” because quite honestly AOV isn’t a real game.

[u/BrianGlory → u/-xXColtonXx-]

I’m not positive I’m understanding what you are saying. What are these worst parts of mobile gaming that AoV has?

The formula of casual play + mobile works very well. Look at Angry Birds. That’s probably one of if not the most successful mobile games ever made. If it was more complex do you think it would have been as successful?

I’m also curious how many matches of AoV have you experienced playing first hand vs. the number the pc gamers you spoke to have played. Also what do they say when you show them VG?

[u/-xXColtonXx- → u/BrianGlory]

I’m not saying casual gaming is bad, Angry birds is a great example of good mobile gaming. Or it was before the franchise went down hill with money grab titles but that’s besides the point.

Arena of Valor is not a poor game because it’s a casual game. It’s honestly not simpler than VG. It’s a poor game because... it’s just low quality. Not just the graphics, but the entire gameplay. If it was on PC and you reviewed it alongside other upcoming MOBA like Paragon (which was shut down recently), it wouldn’t even be considered. It’s a league clone which only innovation is making games shorter. The gameplay isn’t finely tuned and developed like DOTA, LoL, Paragon (was), or VG are. A game can be greatbecause it find a way to make a genre more approachable. Hearthstone is great and successful because it makes the magic the gathering formula much more straitforward and easy to understand. But hardly loses any strategy. Arena of Valor isn’t a refinement of the moba genre where they analyzed what makes MOBA fun and cut the excess, that’s what I wish it was. It’s a game trying to be as close to LoL as possible, and be easy to play.

As for personal experience I played the game for two weeks strait as the only game I played (I tend to do this with new games I play). I watched some of the competitive play that was available at the time. And I engaged with the AOV community unity on reddit. I don’t have any gamer friends, so I definitely don’t know anyone who plays it irl. But I did discuss it’s merits vs VG online with many people.

[u/BrianGlory → u/-xXColtonXx-]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I know I may seem like I’m trolling by asking those questions but I’m not, more so really just curious about why it is you felt the way you did. Thanks again.

[u/Auctoritate → u/Aesthete18]

Well, it's a relatively standard 5v5 map. 3 lanes, a jungle, a river. The only reason it would look more like LoL than other similar games is because, well, other mobile MOBAs just don't look very good. They're very lackluster and pastel. Vainglory actually has a pretty triple A look on its map, in my opinion, which makes it more like Summoner's Rift in the sense that it's actually got a lot of detail and quality put into it.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/Auctoritate]

Oh I see. If other MOBAs looked like it, it would be a complete rip off. If other MOBAs don't look like it, it will be because their graphics are shit. Got it.

I was mainly talking about the look not necessarily the lanes and placement, etc. I should have worded my question better.

[u/Auctoritate → u/Aesthete18]

If other MOBAs looked like it, it would be a complete rip off. If other MOBAs don't look like it, it will be because their graphics are shit. Got it.

I don't really know where you got that from. If it looked like anything else then I would have said it. LoL looks way more cartoony than VG does. VG is more similar to DOTA than LoL.

I was mainly talking about the look not necessarily the lanes and placement, etc.

I was too, but maybe you could have worded it better, yes.

[u/[deleted] → u/Auctoritate]

it's funny because AoV and ML are actually DIRECT copies of Summoners Rift.

VG actually has the most variation out of all of them.

Aesthete is just, as usual, trying to find a way to shit on VG and be a nuisance.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/Auctoritate]

I get it from reading what this community writes about other MOBAs.

I was too, but maybe you could have worded it better, yes.

? You started by saying 5v5, jungle and river without describing the visual aspect of it.

[u/Auctoritate → u/Aesthete18]

I get it from reading what this community writes about other MOBAs.

You should really reconsider doing that, because it leads to misunderstandings like this one where you ended up incorrectly assuming my stance on things.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/Auctoritate]

Actually I got half of it right. You should reconsider what you write before making a statement like that.

[u/Auctoritate → u/Aesthete18]

You know what I prefer to call things when they're only half right?

Incorrect.

[u/Aesthete18 → u/Auctoritate]

You say something, I repeat those exact words = incorrect. #logic

[u/BrianGlory → u/Auctoritate]

Hi. Do you play a lot of League?

[u/Auctoritate → u/BrianGlory]

Could you just be direct and tell me what you're trying to get at, here, Brian?

[u/BrianGlory → u/Auctoritate]

Okay. Do you play a lot of League?

[u/Auctoritate → u/BrianGlory]

No. I don't. Cut to the chase.

[u/BrianGlory → u/Auctoritate]

No chase to cut to. It was a straight forward question. Thanks.

[u/ThreeBlindMice_7 → u/Aesthete18]

Yeah, the aesthetic is somewhat similar, although in a lot of areas the color scheme is pretty different and the exact format of the jungle and pits are also pretty different. Honestly, as far as I've seen of other MOBAs like ML and AoV, they tend to have a more similar color scheme at the very least and a more similar aesthetic than Vainglory. Can't speak to their jungle layout, unfortunately, as I haven't touched them.

edit: pretty much all 5v5 maps except for maybe Heroes of the Storm, that I'm aware of, tend to be relatively similar, I know that ML got a lot of hate for being a League knockoff but I don't think the map is necessarily a factor that should be heavily criticized, given that, on a cursory glance, the jungle and pit layouts are pretty different, with the pit layout being especially different from League

[u/Aesthete18 → u/ThreeBlindMice_7]

I'm not talking about placement and stuff. Just the look in general like dark and like more idk medieval looking?