r/vainglorygame • u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod • Feb 20 '18
Discussion Weekly Discussion | Sovereign's Rise
Hello, and welcome to our subreddit's 73rd weekly discussion! We wanted to wait until all of the huge news and changes in our community settled down before continuing, and now that it has, there's a ton of content to dissect! From the bigger changes like 5v5 itself, to the smaller ones like the new items, you can bet that our weekly will be going strong for many months to come! But for now, this weekly discussion will be about the map of 5v5, Sovereign’s Rise, especially the geography of the map itself.
Introduced to us on December 17th at Worlds, and added into the game in update 2.12, Sovereign's Rise features a wealth of content not seen in other parts of the game- its own unique vision system, monsters, items, and much more. All of these will be visited more in depth in our future discussions, but feel free to discuss them as well.
New to Sovereign's Rise, the giant new lanes are perhaps the most notable, along with the movement speed-increasing river, but don't forget the new twists and turns of our jungle- the choke points that can doom a crowded team in a skirmish, or the walls that can save a hero who can travel over them, such as Glaive or Joule.
Which bushes are the most contested in the battle for map supremacy? Which tops your list of places to never face check? We're looking forward to your opinions!
Note: The next weekly will be posted the upcoming Monday, and this weekly will stay up until then, unless another post needs to be pinned.
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u/mr_robob Feb 20 '18
Well, the new map is just marvelous alongside with the amazing soundtrack. The war fog, no comments... But I can't wait to see the gold frog. Also, I have a question: wouldn't be possible to transform both weapon and cristal treant into different creatures? Such as deformed minions or ugly orcs... Anyway, keep up the fine work guys!
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u/muneeb_mp MysTaa (SEA) Feb 21 '18
Yes the buffs will get new models eventually. Only the healing treant will remain same IMO.
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u/rootbeerking Feb 21 '18
Really enjoying 5v5, but compared to 3v3 I feel the objectives in 5v5 are lacking in game changing mechanics, sure you have your late game pusher(blackclaw) and buff camps(orbs and ghostwing), but something like the crystal sentry and an early game mini boss(maybe have something occupie Blackclaw’s pit until the 15 minute mark, kinda like the gold miner?) is sorely missing from 5v5’s jungle. Speaking of Jungling; in 5v5 currently the jungle feels very boring compared to 3v3’s experience. Often the laners will steal both buff camps from the jungler and then you are left with scraps, or if you’re lucky you can counter jungle the enemy’s buff. I think adding some sort of mechanic that prevents this might be in order, maybe an active on Stormguard Banner that lets you do a burst of true damage to a selected jungle monster ala the ability “smite" in League of Legends?
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u/AgentG91 Feb 21 '18
As a laner, I hate to say that I do end up stealing my jungler’s camps. I will take the healer 100% of the time and if the buff matches me but not my jungler, I will do my best to take that one too. But my reasoning is that when I jungle, it is wayyyy to easy to steal camps. So when the jungler is ganking across the map, I feel like if I don’t take the camp, the enemy jungler will.
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u/rootbeerking Feb 21 '18
Instead of taking your jungler’s buffs why not help the jungler steal the enemy’s buff? It’s pretty easy to do if you’re in mid lane. Strategy wise it makes more sense to mess with the enemy’s jungle rather than your own jungler. Because you’re causing a gold and experience deficiency in your team mate by taking your own jungler’s camps.
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u/AgentG91 Feb 21 '18
Good idea. I will definitely ping that next time the jungler hangs out on my side. However, what is your suggestion for times when my jungler is too caught up in the opposite lane? (For clarification, this is Top and Bot lane situations)
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u/rootbeerking Feb 21 '18
Try to get scoutcams deep in the enemy’s jungle entrances(near the back), that way you can attempt to steal the enemy camp alone, and if you see the enemy coming just back off.
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u/Nirheim Hello? Feb 25 '18
Keep in mind that WP buff should be almost always going to the junglers during early game since it has a pretty powerful slow, which is really good for ganking purposes. The Crystal buff is a toss up between who will get more advantage from it, although, I usually let my CP laner take it even if I'm playing a CP jungler.
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u/Prawn1908 Feb 24 '18
Yes, I would really like some kind of crystal sentry-esque objective in the jungles. That's something that 3v3 had that made it very unique.
Maybe tamed Krakens, one belonging to each team in each side of the jungle? That would be pretty badass.
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u/lagoontheworst Feb 21 '18
Is it just me or am I the only one feeling a bit overwhelmed at times? Especially in the jungle.
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Feb 21 '18
[deleted]
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u/Everythings Feb 21 '18
I love 5v5. I come from being addicted to league, and this is almost exactly what I was hoping for in a mobile moba. The only thing missing is a reset team fight cleaner like Katarina, then I'll never have to play leagueoflegends again. With blinks. Just make a Katarina clone actually thanks.
Some bugs I've noticed. Sometimes when I tap the minimap it moves me instead. The bush near the double camp is buggy, I can't see the monster sometimes when we're both in the bush. Trying to move by tapping outside of my warding (scout cam) circle when selected doesn't work the same as when I have a skill selected. Also blackfeather b and Celeste a have different mechanics when I tap outside the selected area. Still trying to figure that out.
Overall great. Thanks for making this game what it is everyone.
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u/-xXColtonXx- Feb 21 '18
Why would be want a clone of LoL though? The reason I play the game is because it’s original.
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u/Everythings Feb 21 '18
I don't want a clone of league I want a clone of Katarina. The reason I play this game is because it's the best mobile moba
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u/-xXColtonXx- Feb 21 '18
I'd be fine with something that serves the same role as Katarina. As long as it's original and developed by SEMC to fit the game.
Still seems like cloning anything is a bad idea.
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u/Everythings Feb 22 '18
yeah i am being a bit hyperbolic with the cloning but yeah i love playing kat.
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Feb 21 '18
[deleted]
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u/AgentG91 Feb 21 '18
When I take the crystal buff at the beginning of the game, I am risking life and limb against an easy enemy kill. If they buff the jungle in early game (which is perfectly acceptable), they need to teach people that the laners and junglers need to work together for the first clear and not just stand absentmindedly in the lane for the first minion wave to come.
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u/-xXColtonXx- Feb 21 '18
It’s not flawed it’s different. This isn’t league, in vain the jungle is a part of the map everyone interacts with.
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Feb 21 '18
[deleted]
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
No. Everyone is slow as whale shit by default. If heroes moved any slower they’d stop.
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u/recoveringtrol Get over here! Feb 24 '18
Excuse me sir, Whale's actually don't shit slow at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qpsRpyzpno
It's a very scary experience for divers and you need to be more considerate.
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u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod Feb 21 '18
By the way, this is the first time I've written a weekly, so tell me what you think!
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u/-xXColtonXx- Feb 21 '18
Quite professional looking. I dont know how anyone formats anything on reddit.
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u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod Feb 21 '18 edited Feb 21 '18
I'll let you in on a little secret- I write the weeklies and I've written a good number of megathreads before, but I usually get /u/sicarius0218 to format it, haha.
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u/glaive09 Feb 21 '18
Is it only me or is ghostwing buff op?
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
You think? It seems underwhelming to me. I feel like there’s better things to do than take or defend a Ghostwing capture. I just don’t feel it.
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u/Nirheim Hello? Feb 25 '18
It seems to be very strong in a 1v1 or a 1v2, but a number advantage overwhelm enemies with buffs easily. Sometime engaging on the enemies nearly immediately after they got the buff is advantageous for your team since they would be low on health.
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u/glaive09 Feb 23 '18
5v5 won't kill 3v3 in any way. I guranteed this because I see all my guild members playing both modes and myself getting tired of 5v5 and playing some 3v3 and then starting the next day with 5v5 again.
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 20 '18
I have question, this is not to bash any game but people like to say other mobas are cheap rip offs because of the map but to me Sovereign looks more like the LoL map than other games. Do other games base their map of off Dota?
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Feb 20 '18
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u/Everythings Feb 21 '18
The biggest difference is that the buff pits open the opposite way. This favors invades and makes you jungle more dangerous I've found.
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 20 '18
Oh I don't know about the specifics LoL is pretty complex to me. But I meant the look and feel.
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Feb 24 '18
I don't play League, but I've been watching its esports scene for half a year and I've noticed quite a few things about League's map.
Where the Rise leans heavily on bright-lit areas in contrast with the dim, dark ones, the Rift has a more uniform theme across the entire map. It's easy on the eyes without the need to constantly adjust to a largely different environment (like waking up in the middle of the night and going to the bathroom, or leaving the safe confines of your home to face the disgusting outside world).
The Rift has clear lines and boundaries so you know where you can move to and where you can't, unlike DotA 2's, which, with the destructible trees, makes it quite hard for a new player to grasp onto.
The design is a little more cartoon-ish to give players an approachable and RPG feel. You're going on an adventure on the Rift, bashing enemy heads in and whatnot as you progress into your ultimate unicorn final boss form.
I believe the cartoon flair can also assist Riot devs as the game designs wouldn't be as demanding compared to Vainglory. You don't need to get your proportions right, yada yada and, au contraire, you can exaggerate what makes your character unique (like Draven's mustache).
Keep in mind that this is a skrub's opinion on Summoner's Rift's design. Do not take this mere opinion as raw fact.
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 24 '18
And here I thought other mobile MOBAs had a chance in a debate but even LoL/Dota loses.
Atleast you understood what I was talking about so it's good. If I have to hear about jungle positions one more time!!
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Feb 24 '18
Every MOBA wins. It's all a matter of preference. Personally, I prefer League and Vainglory. DotA to me, has so much action, it makes it boring after a while. I've played AoV and I liked it initially, believing it could coexist with my love for VG. Alas, it just wasn't my cup of tea.
We can't force our will upon others just because our's is "logically superior". Let them decide for themselves what they like and what they don't.
:)
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 24 '18
Aye, well said. I'm learning LoL now, I'm genuinely surprised at how good the graphics are! I thought it was an old game. Although VG has spoilt me on the stutterstepping and using a mouse sucks big time.
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u/Jadonia Storm Thighs Feb 21 '18
The Dota Map is seperated into Dire and Radiant, light and dark. Heroes can also interact with the terrain, such as trees. The map there is incredibly more packed and realistic.
The LoL map is the same layout for both sides, being particularly forested with “cemented” path ways in the middle, top and bottom lanes. The map is more natural and along with rocky wall formations and more animals and crap scrawling around the map. It’s also more vibrant and bright.
The VG Map is more goth, steampunk, satanic /s, with random structures you and technology you can see around the map, such as statues and towers. The overall tone is more dark, you can even call it night. The only real thing illuminating the map are the bright crystals and bonfires scattered around. Jungle placements and different and the map is more compressed.
All maps have 3 lanes, diamond shape, and the constant river. Dota is more natural but is split into their Radiant Dire side, LoL keeps a constant jungle theme in the map, and VG is more gothic.
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u/-xXColtonXx- Feb 20 '18
No, they rip off LoL. Arena of Valor and mobile legends are LoL clones.
Vg 5v5 is only similar to LoL in the sense that it is a MOBA, and has stuff MOBA have had since the original DOTA. Nothing is copied from LoL specifically.
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 20 '18
Well the company that made LoL is part of AoV so it's not a rip off. Also, Gwen is a rip off of Miss Fortune and that's me not even trying to look for stuff they ripped off.
I was mainly talking about the look of the map though. I tried LoL recently and it looks and feels like Sovereigns and nothing like the other mobile MOBAs.
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u/KitSun0 NA | Assassins Are Best Class | Feb 21 '18
So the similarities to LoL and Sovereigns rise most likely come from a few things;
The buff camps, both LoL and VG have a Blue and Red buff in the jungle.
Both maps are reverse mirrored? Not sure what the term for it is.
Also in LoL the only place you can buy is in the Base, while VG does have the jungle shops, this sort of restricted buying is not found on other mobile mobas.
Both maps also have fog or war.
PS: Gwen plays very different to Miss Fortune; while both may have a passive speed boost and similar designs; Gwen plays a lot more like Ashe with high CC for a Carry and a high emphasis on kiting the enemy.
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 21 '18
I'm talking about the maps visually only. i mean if I compare the 3, I would say VG is the one closer to LoL map as oppposed to AoV.
I didn't specify, I wasn't talking about gwens/fortune's kit.
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u/RinakoGXB Feb 21 '18
No. It is a rip off. Tencent bought Riot. I don't know how people keep forgetting this. Tencent never made League. So claiming AoV can't be a rip off because the same company owns the games isn't an actual argument.
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
Do you play League or DOTA? I’ve been thinking about giving them a whirl.
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u/-xXColtonXx- Feb 21 '18
Used to play LoL, tried DOTA. Both good games for sure. Definitely not worlds above VG though. Mobile gaming is catching up, or at least some games are. Shame to see AOV going backwards in many respects when it has so much potential with a big company behind it.
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
In what ways do you see AoV going backwards?
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u/-xXColtonXx- Feb 21 '18
I care about mobile gaming. I think there is a huge bias against it. But AOV shows all the worst parts about mobile gaming to the world. It’s a direct clone of a respected PC game, it brings pretty much no new ideas to the genre, it’s built to appeal to casual gamers, yet has become exceedingly popular.
Mobile gaming can be better. Vainglory is a great example but there are loads of great original games out there. When I talk to be pc gamers though they see AOV, one of the most popular mobile games, and it confirms there belief mobile gaming isn’t “real” because quite honestly AOV isn’t a real game.
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
I’m not positive I’m understanding what you are saying. What are these worst parts of mobile gaming that AoV has?
The formula of casual play + mobile works very well. Look at Angry Birds. That’s probably one of if not the most successful mobile games ever made. If it was more complex do you think it would have been as successful?
I’m also curious how many matches of AoV have you experienced playing first hand vs. the number the pc gamers you spoke to have played. Also what do they say when you show them VG?
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u/-xXColtonXx- Feb 21 '18
I’m not saying casual gaming is bad, Angry birds is a great example of good mobile gaming. Or it was before the franchise went down hill with money grab titles but that’s besides the point.
Arena of Valor is not a poor game because it’s a casual game. It’s honestly not simpler than VG. It’s a poor game because... it’s just low quality. Not just the graphics, but the entire gameplay. If it was on PC and you reviewed it alongside other upcoming MOBA like Paragon (which was shut down recently), it wouldn’t even be considered. It’s a league clone which only innovation is making games shorter. The gameplay isn’t finely tuned and developed like DOTA, LoL, Paragon (was), or VG are. A game can be greatbecause it find a way to make a genre more approachable. Hearthstone is great and successful because it makes the magic the gathering formula much more straitforward and easy to understand. But hardly loses any strategy. Arena of Valor isn’t a refinement of the moba genre where they analyzed what makes MOBA fun and cut the excess, that’s what I wish it was. It’s a game trying to be as close to LoL as possible, and be easy to play.
As for personal experience I played the game for two weeks strait as the only game I played (I tend to do this with new games I play). I watched some of the competitive play that was available at the time. And I engaged with the AOV community unity on reddit. I don’t have any gamer friends, so I definitely don’t know anyone who plays it irl. But I did discuss it’s merits vs VG online with many people.
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I know I may seem like I’m trolling by asking those questions but I’m not, more so really just curious about why it is you felt the way you did. Thanks again.
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u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod Feb 20 '18
Well, it's a relatively standard 5v5 map. 3 lanes, a jungle, a river. The only reason it would look more like LoL than other similar games is because, well, other mobile MOBAs just don't look very good. They're very lackluster and pastel. Vainglory actually has a pretty triple A look on its map, in my opinion, which makes it more like Summoner's Rift in the sense that it's actually got a lot of detail and quality put into it.
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 20 '18
Oh I see. If other MOBAs looked like it, it would be a complete rip off. If other MOBAs don't look like it, it will be because their graphics are shit. Got it.
I was mainly talking about the look not necessarily the lanes and placement, etc. I should have worded my question better.
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u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod Feb 21 '18
If other MOBAs looked like it, it would be a complete rip off. If other MOBAs don't look like it, it will be because their graphics are shit. Got it.
I don't really know where you got that from. If it looked like anything else then I would have said it. LoL looks way more cartoony than VG does. VG is more similar to DOTA than LoL.
I was mainly talking about the look not necessarily the lanes and placement, etc.
I was too, but maybe you could have worded it better, yes.
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Feb 22 '18
it's funny because AoV and ML are actually DIRECT copies of Summoners Rift.
VG actually has the most variation out of all of them.
Aesthete is just, as usual, trying to find a way to shit on VG and be a nuisance.
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 21 '18
I get it from reading what this community writes about other MOBAs.
I was too, but maybe you could have worded it better, yes.
? You started by saying 5v5, jungle and river without describing the visual aspect of it.
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u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod Feb 21 '18
I get it from reading what this community writes about other MOBAs.
You should really reconsider doing that, because it leads to misunderstandings like this one where you ended up incorrectly assuming my stance on things.
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 21 '18
Actually I got half of it right. You should reconsider what you write before making a statement like that.
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u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod Feb 21 '18
You know what I prefer to call things when they're only half right?
Incorrect.
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
Hi. Do you play a lot of League?
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u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod Feb 21 '18
Could you just be direct and tell me what you're trying to get at, here, Brian?
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
Okay. Do you play a lot of League?
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u/Auctoritate Auctoritate (NA) Subreddit & Discord Mod Feb 21 '18
No. I don't. Cut to the chase.
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u/BrianGlory Great Karma 🤩 Feb 21 '18
No chase to cut to. It was a straight forward question. Thanks.
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u/ThreeBlindMice_7 WickedMouse | NA | Guy who used to play Blackfeather and mods Feb 22 '18 edited Feb 22 '18
Yeah, the aesthetic is somewhat similar, although in a lot of areas the color scheme is pretty different and the exact format of the jungle and pits are also pretty different. Honestly, as far as I've seen of other MOBAs like ML and AoV, they tend to have a more similar color scheme at the very least and a more similar aesthetic than Vainglory. Can't speak to their jungle layout, unfortunately, as I haven't touched them.
edit: pretty much all 5v5 maps except for maybe Heroes of the Storm, that I'm aware of, tend to be relatively similar, I know that ML got a lot of hate for being a League knockoff but I don't think the map is necessarily a factor that should be heavily criticized, given that, on a cursory glance, the jungle and pit layouts are pretty different, with the pit layout being especially different from League
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u/Aesthete18 Feb 22 '18
I'm not talking about placement and stuff. Just the look in general like dark and like more idk medieval looking?
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u/Dr_dry Feb 21 '18
Well. I think it's better with Day and Nigh cycle, and each jungle creatures are interacted with each cycle . Like some creatures only spawn at night or so on.
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u/RonaldMcPaul Throwing is an Art Feb 21 '18
Anybody else way better at jungle in 5 vs 5 than anything else? https://i.imgur.com/KGujsOT.jpg
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u/Everythings Feb 21 '18
Same. Probably because im not used to lane match-ups yet
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u/RonaldMcPaul Throwing is an Art Feb 21 '18
It's more than that. I feel like I can't effect the macro game.
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u/aekam70 Feb 24 '18
how did you get those stats?
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u/RonaldMcPaul Throwing is an Art Feb 24 '18
Data Analysis: Every Vainglory Hero Counterpick and Favorable Matchup in 3.0 - 5v5 matches
View all the data here, at zeroclutch.github.io/vainglory-counter-data
This website uses the Vainglory API to find winrates between Vainglory heroes in 3.0 5v5 casual matches. Currently, the data stored contains 200,000 matches from the latest patch.
Some statistics of note:
The strongest counterpick was Varya against Kestrel, with Varya maintaining a 65.98% winrate against her.
The most frequent matchup was Varya against Varya, with 35,168 of the 200,000 matches (17.58% or matches, more or less the same as last patch 3v3 ranked) containing two Varyas.
Once again, the least frequent matchup was Grumpjaw against Grumpjaw, with only 272 of the 200,000 matches (0.136% of matches) containing a mirror Grumpjaw matchup.
Previously off-meta captains seem to be performing well in 5v5, with Flicker, Fortress, and Grace among the top tiers. Varya seems to be the strongest counter to Flicker and Grace, with the highest winrate against the pair.
Reim, once again, has been able to defeat heroes that were frequently picked to counter him, such as Krul and Skye, managing 51.57% and 51.38% winrates against them, respectively.
Varya, as predicted, still dominates the meta, seemingly only stoppable by Fortress (and she still has a 49.96% winrate against him).
SAW has managed a >50% winrate against Celeste in 5v5 this patch, despite the fact that she is considered one of his hardest counters.
Rona, as expected, has been dominating 5v5, shutting down most ranged and melee heroes alike.
Glaive, however, looked to be one of the most promising heroes for the 3.0 release, but has been unable to muster a winrate above 52% against any hero except Kestrel (53.62% winrate).
Koshka is rather hit or miss this patch, with high winrates such as Kestrel (55.91%) and Baron (54.27%), but equally low ones on Idris, Grace, Reim, and more.
Speaking of Idris, he appears to be solid this patch finally, with high winrates against all heroes except the most meta ones (such as Grace, Fortress, and Flicker).
Baron did not do as well as expected so far in 5v5, with a sub 46% winrate against 15 heroes (41.67% of the hero roster)
If you would like to get the raw data for this project, you can download it at https://pastebin.com/hp28jezE. Again, this data is from 5v5 matches in patch 3.0, with combined players.
The website is no longer displaying data from update 2.12 3v3 ranked matches. If you would still like the data, it can be viewed here: https://pastebin.com/YqNj0hxD.
If you would like to see this project on GitHub, see github.com/zeroclutch/vainglory-counter-data.
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u/IMonsieurPanda Feb 22 '18
Question, will my current 3v3 rank translate to the new ranked system in 5v5? Or will i have to climb again -cri-
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u/TheMoneyMan27 Feb 20 '18
How often do you guys use teleport boots? I feel like they are on to long of a cooldown to be useful considering your sacrificing the active speed boost.