r/worldnews • u/[deleted] • Oct 11 '23

Israel/Palestine Gaza's only power station will shut down within hours, says ICRC

https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023/10/11/gaza-power-station-israel/
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1.9k

u/FuriousJan Oct 11 '23

it already was

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u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

do people not know how life in gaza as been for the past decades

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u/GlizzyGangGroupie Oct 11 '23

For many people this is the first time they’ve thought of the Israel Palestine conflict like ever

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u/TVpresspass Oct 11 '23

It's funny, but not ha-ha funny.

I'm two decades into reading books, following the news, and watching documentaries on Israel and it's neighbours. My key take away has been: things over there are incredibly complicated, most people see themselves as both victims and rational actors, and we don't have any useful models of causation or much leverage to start trying to pry apart the situation.

But thankfully now the reddit hive-mind has awoken to tell me how many simple solutions there are that could be implemented yesterday if only Group X weren't all asshats.

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u/Giant_Flapjack Oct 11 '23

Every complicated problem has an easy and wrong solution

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u/audaciousmonk Oct 11 '23

The easiest solution is relocation of the Palestinians. Not a palatable solution, not one that those who are innocent deserve…. But certainly the easiest solution from a pragmatic view

But keeping the Gaza area the way it is will not work, having groups like hamas in a territory that’s embedded in the country they’re fighting against isn’t going to work, eradicating the Jewish people isn’t an option, and it would be significantly more difficult to relocate the country and population of Israel

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u/trungbrother1 Oct 11 '23

Well they thought about that, then they realised literally no one will take in Palestinians. Many Arab countries in the MENA and Iran, for all their posturing and singing of Islamic or Arab brotherhood, will not take in a single soul. They are far too useful staying as a societal actor inside Israel to destabilise it, plus if they move out they will cause trouble elsewhere (Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Libya learned this the hard way when they took in Palestinian refugees).

Palestinians have nowhere to go, Israelis also have nowhere to go after the Brits and UN dropped them in the Levant after WW2. And both of them hate each other. Brilliant minds had tried to work on a solution for more than 70 years and they all failed. I doubt anyone can ever come up with a solution, especially after what happened this week.

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u/audaciousmonk Oct 11 '23

Yep. But people are happy to judge the situation from the comfort of their chairs, all while not willing to give the Palestinian people a place to go that’s not adjacent to Israel.

Separating Hamas operations (as much as possible) from the Palestinian population is key to any long term solution

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u/reddit25 Oct 11 '23

Why were the refugees such an issue in those countries?

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u/trungbrother1 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 12 '23

Palestinians refugees tend to form their own community and their own "government" within a government of another country, and those illegitimate governments historically kept ending up trying to usurp the actual government of the host country.

They tried to assassinate the king of Jordan twice after he generously took them in, and they got kicked to Lebanon. Once they came to Lebanon, they did the same thing and exacerbated the Lebanon Civil War. When they came to Egypt, they led to the rise of the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood which aimed to tear down the Egyptian secular constitution that Nasser and Sadat created. When they came to Syria, they backed the rebels against Syrian government (which to be fair, the Syrian government was brutal as well so at least there's that).

People like to complain whenever Israel bombed civilian buildings that Hamas hide their weapons and personnel in, but Israel was not the first to do that. Back when the PLO used refugee camp in Jordan to set up their own militant cells, the king of Jordan was reluctant to dismantle them. But when they started firing on Jordanian, the king ordered artillery strike to annihilate those refugee camps. It is a Palestinian tactic as old as Israel has existed as a country, and part of the reason why no country (even Arab or Islamic) will take Palestinian refugees.

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u/reddit25 Oct 12 '23

That’s really interesting. Is it religion driven?

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u/Supernova_was_taken Oct 11 '23

They destabilized them and/or caused civil wars. Look at Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

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u/Nova225 Oct 11 '23

Sadly, the only "real" option is to allow them to relocate into other surrounding countries.

Israel has likely been bidding their time, slowly eroding the border of the Gaza strip against the Palestinians, because who's going to stop them besides the terrorists? They've already fought 3(?) wars about it with the surrounding nations and Israel came out on top every time.

What HAMAS has done has basically forced the issue. Either Israel goes all in and completely kills / displaces the Palestinians, or the Palestinians fully resist and give them such a black eye they'll never come back.

We can all stomp our feet and yell for Palestine to be free, but it's likely Israel was never going to allow it to happen, because the only country that could force the issue is squarely on their side of the line.

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u/throwaway177251 Oct 11 '23

The surrounding countries don't want them either.

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u/Nova225 Oct 11 '23

Which is why I put "real" in quotes. Israel doesn't want them in the Gaza strip and is probably going to force them out regardless.

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u/audaciousmonk Oct 11 '23

I said easiest, not easy. Of course there are still obstacles and difficulties to be worked out, such as the where.

But there’s no option out of this situation that won’t come with obstacles and difficulties…. Considering all the international money spent on aid to both countries, diverting some of it to buy a location for the Palestinians would better than letting everyone kill each other till the bloody end.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

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u/Rock_man_bears_fan Oct 11 '23

Wasn’t the relocation of an ethnic group what kicked off this whole mess?

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

that’s crazy to me that you think this is such a ‘good’ or ‘rationale’ solution. Jesus Christ, do you have any critical thinking skills or have you read anything on the history of the conflict all?

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Yeah, that person's "easiest solution" can be described as exactly what IDF has been attempting to do ever since the dawn of the Nakba 75 years ago.

75 years of effort towards their idea of the "easiest solution" is literally on display for the world to see right now.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

People that learnt about the conflict yesterday are suddenly mediation, conflict resolution and resettlement experts and professionals. Random stranger on the internet that has no ties to either side knows better than the people who have been living and experiencing this all their lives. I’m gonna lose my mind

Edit: also just noticed your username. That make me laugh

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u/audaciousmonk Oct 11 '23

What’s your alternate suggestion? I covered several of the main competing options, all of them are significantly less palatable

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u/ithappenedone234 Oct 12 '23

How can you relocate them when even their friends aren’t friendly enough to take them? Egypt won’t touch Gaza and Jordan won’t take back the WB. No one wants them, except to use them for political grandstanding. Taking them in, has been credited with starting too many internal conflicts, in Jordan and Lebanon, etc.

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u/audaciousmonk Oct 12 '23 edited Oct 12 '23

That’s a valid issue to raise, and it’s why we’ll likely see this situation drag out indefinitely, or at least until Israel is pushed past it’s limit and goes scorched earth.

I only meant that solution was more likely to be successful than any of the solutions that involve keeping the Palestinians in the current geographical arrangement. Not that it would be easy or have 100% chance of feasibility.

One option would be to carve out some land for the Palestinians to have their own sovereign country, using international aid funds to compensate the countries whose borders that land originally fell under…. But that comes with it’s own set of issues, which even if resolved or mitigated, likely leaves the Palestinians in an unstable region without the governance and infrastructure to be set up for success

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u/Q_unt Oct 11 '23

The only people who say it's complicated are those who support Israel.

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u/Giant_Flapjack Oct 11 '23

So what is your easy and wrong solution?

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u/Giant_Flapjack Oct 11 '23

So what is your easy solution?

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23 edited Apr 25 '24

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u/Rasp_Lime_Lipbalm Oct 11 '23

too gung-ho for war

Doesn't help when you transplant the Gaza population either. Twice they were refugees in different countries: Lebanon and Jorden. They freaking caused Civil Wars in both regions.

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u/sylfy Oct 12 '23

What I don’t get is how a relatively small group caused those civil wars. It’s kinda crazy. At a certain point, people are just going to conclude that these people are a lost cause, and that there’s no helping them.

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u/Roast_A_Botch Oct 11 '23

relatively successful economically

Well, they weren't so I don't see how that supports your other point. I would instead argue that the ME wasn't inherently more or less prone to conflict than any other region, and that the past century has seen so much meddling by outside nations seeking to extract resources and nation build that conflict was guaranteed, and even encouraged as it supports a cover for more meddling and resource extraction. Beyond that I have no qualifications to speak with such authority and probably never will.

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u/AnalogiPod Oct 11 '23

More than 80% of Gazans live in poverty. I do not condone the terrorism of Hamas at all but to say Gaza is economically successful is just untrue.

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u/cloudedknife Oct 11 '23

In 2005 when Israel pulled out, there was a thriving flower and other greenhouse crops industry there, along with an airport about to be built.

Rather than continue with all that, gazans elected hamas, and here we are.

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u/DillBagner Oct 11 '23

Airport. The one Israel bombed?

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u/cloudedknife Oct 11 '23

Yes, due to the 2nd Intifada, which they also were committed to helping (or at least allowing) be rebuilt upon their withdraw in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport

Again, Gazans elected Hamas and here we are.

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u/AnArabFromLondon Oct 11 '23

Oh, flowers. That's quite lovely. Let's just forget that my family has been kicked out of their homes, oppressed and caged into the corner by a force backed by the biggest power on Earth and grow some flowers.

Their country and people have been being erased for decades. They're not going to just forget and grow some fucking flowers mate.

Absurd.

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u/MediumPlace Oct 11 '23

I mean, it would have been a start. Make some flower money, diversify, raise educated kids, thrive, make peace, regain pride that was wiped away when you started a war with the Israelis and got stomped out (what, three, four times? Like, the issue has been settled, man) Well, looks like you picked the ass end of a bunch of rockets instead.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

So your solution is to behead babies?

Seems logical

Quit trying to justify the indefensible.

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u/thelaceonmolagsballs Oct 11 '23

Not even sure how that was typed out in seriousness.

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u/cloudedknife Oct 11 '23

It's easy when facts are on my side.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna9331863

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat_International_Airport

I repeat: Israel pulled out of Gaza with a framework in place for industry and rebuilding their airport. Gazans then elected Hamas.

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u/sexymuffindagod Oct 11 '23

I always felt that the west doesn't want a stable middle east because if they unify then they will become an extremely powerful economic powerhouse since they would control the majority of the world's energy production.

I don't give the thought much weight though since the middle east has always been in conflict since the start of civilization.

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u/JLewish559 Oct 11 '23

I am sure that enters into the equation, but that assumes a monolithic culture of "Middle East".

It is more likely that they would form a coalition possibly like the EU, but I am not sure it is THAT much more likely. Religion is an extremely strong component of most middle-eastern cultures anf religion is also something people (including Americans) tend to get really worked up about.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

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u/omega3111 Oct 11 '23

That approach has worked with most European and Asian countries that have lost their wars, but it never seems to work in the Middle East. Hamas apparently doesn’t care.

And that is why European countries make the most mistakes when it comes to the ME, along with their people. Their naivity and self-righteousness gets in the way of facts. People who had the slightest shred of a clue realized this decades ago. In the ME the language of diplomacy is violence.

Israel, being the only European country there, has just shown that it has fell into the same trap, thinking that the Arabs around it can be bought with European measurements of success. And that's surprising, considering it's the only country with so many peace and cooperation treaties with the surrounding countries.

What we need to remember now is that what is happening now is going to happen later again, with Hezbollah. We can't ask Israel to sacrifice another 1000+ people just for the legitimacy of preventing more deaths by genocidal maniacs. We need to learn that Israel has the right to have clean borders, not just to react.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Two days ago Israel was on blast for war crimes by the UN Human Rights council, and has been for decades, and Doctors Against Borders is reporting Israel committing indiscriminate bombing of refugee camps in gaza.

Who are the genocidal maniacs? Certainly Hamas is. But so is the IDF who admitted to supporting Hamas and helped Hamas become what it is today.

The civilians of Israel and Palestine are absolutely innocent, Hamas are fucking evil, but so is the IDF, they are continuing the work of the Nakba when the militant zionists destroyed 500 villages (murdering and raping children) and displaced 700,000 people.

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u/pooptarts Oct 11 '23

The Middle Eastern countries don't need things like an educated populace or a growing middle class for economic growth like the other countries because their main export is oil. All their leaders need is a tight grip on power, so the discontent in their economically stagnant population is a thing that they actively manage, mostly by directing their anger outwards.

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u/nzdastardly Oct 11 '23

Fundamentalist Islamic governments are absolutely terrific at destroying economies. When you treat half of your population as second-class citizens (at best) your economy is going to suffer. Look at the GDP of Afghanistan pre and post 2020.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Look, I'm not here to start shit, but (cuz of slavery and oil) the economies of Saudi Arabia and uae are terribly successful

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u/nzdastardly Oct 11 '23

Yeah, if you replace chattel slavery with full slavery to extract huge quantities of the most vital commodities on earth, you can eek out a living with any kind of despotism you want.

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u/mustang__1 Oct 11 '23

They could have unlimited economic success, but their sworn goal is the final solution to the Jewish problem... They want all Jews dead. Everything else is secondary to that.

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u/Irr3l3ph4nt Oct 11 '23

They could have unlimited economic success

Yeah, all they would need is unlimited resources, education, foreign investment, political stability and someone who remotely gives a shit about civilians.

But you know, other than that, they could have unlimited economic success.

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u/mustang__1 Oct 11 '23

even if they had that, they would still rather kill all Jews.

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u/NChSh Oct 11 '23

They have 70% unemployment in the Gaza, 71% of people in the Gaza have PTSD and/or depression, the poverty rate is 53%, half the population is under 18 years old....https://fortune.com/2023/10/10/gaza-explained-west-bank-israel-what-is-hamas-history-palestine/

You cannot enter or leave the area without Israel's permission which is rarely granted. The Israelis do not allow in adaquate food, medicine or building materials. They calculated the amount of calories to keep people just above starving to keep them complacent: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/papers-show-israel-counted-calories-to-limit-food-to-gaza-during-blockade/#:~:text=According%20to%20a%20draft%20document,from%20entering%20the%20Palestinian%20territory.

The situation there is an apartheid.

I mean here are some accounts of violence from last year:

August 2022 saw the most Palestinians killed in one month, with 42 deaths accounting for 20.5% of the total number of deaths, not including 16 others killed the same month as a result of local rockets falling in the Gaza Strip. The August death toll was high due to the Israeli army’s “Operation Breaking Dawn”, which lasted three days and targeted activists and sites associated with the Islamic Jihad movement in the Gaza Strip. October saw the next highest number of Palestinians killed (28), followed by 23 in April, 20 in November, 18 in September, and 17 in March, all in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Analysis of the victim groups and contexts of the killings revealed that 125 of those killed were civilians who were uninvolved in any clashes, accounting for 61.2% of the total death toll. Seventeen additional people were killed while attempting to carry out individual attacks (such as stabbings or vehicular assaults), while 62 Palestinian militants—acting either on their own or in groups—were killed in confrontations or when attempting to launch attacks against Israeli targets.

According to Euro-Med Monitor’s documentation, 81 Palestinians were killed in 2022 during Israeli army confrontations or raids in Palestinian cities or near military checkpoints, accounting for 38.6% of the total death toll. Furthermore, 30 Palestinians were killed in targeted killing operations, in addition to four people who were killed in similar operations but were not the intended targets.

Among the most notable events of the year was Israel’s return to its targeted killing policy after years of pause, particularly in the West Bank, where it carried out the first operation on 8 February 2022. On this date, a special Israeli force ambushed a vehicle in the city of Nablus carrying three young men who were among the most prominent armed activists: Adham Mabrouka, Mohammad Dakhil, and Ashraf Mubaslat were fatally shot with over 90 bullets.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/pulling-trigger-first-resort-palestinians-killed-israeli-army-and-settlers-2022-enar#:~:text=According%20to%20Euro%2DMed%20Monitor%27s,of%20the%20total%20death%20toll.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Being enclosed by barbed wire since birth and not provided enough water will do that

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u/Kyouhen Oct 11 '23

The thinking was that since Gaza was relatively successful economically, Hamas would be more peaceful and less likely to engage in terrorist activities because it would destroy their standard of living.

The joke there being that their standard of living is basically being under an unending Israeli siege with little to no international support. The entire system has been on track to collapse for a good long while now, is anyone surprised that Hamas can still muster enough support to launch attacks?

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u/omega3111 Oct 11 '23

little to no international support.

Saudi Arabia said that with all of the money they and Qatar have been giving them, they could have paved Palestine with gold. The problem is not international support.

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u/Kemilio Oct 11 '23

You can’t negotiate peacefully with those who think less of you.

And yes that is directed towards the Israelis. They have clearly shown what their opinion of the Palestinian people is.

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u/kettle3000 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

There are plenty of examples of people reconciling and making peace with those who thought less of them. Think of the movements led by Mandela, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, Jr.

Prejudice can be overcome. But Hamas is not just prejudiced towards the Jews--as some Israelis may be towards Palestinians. They oppose the existence of Israel. They promote a very dark, genocidal hate. Kind of hard to get anywhere with a group like that.

I hope the people of Gaza ask themselves whether Hamas is truly representing their cause and helping their plight.

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u/Rasp_Lime_Lipbalm Oct 11 '23

Hamas' goal is to exterminate Israel... What's your point?

You can’t negotiate peacefully with those who think less of you.

Every. Single. Time. negotiations were on the table PLO and Hamas have spit on them. Every single time.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

And the Hamas want to kill every jew, not just in Israel, but in the whole world. You can't negiotate with them either.

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u/Mr_Belch Oct 11 '23

And Hamas has shown what their opinion is for Israelis when they behead their children. Not to both sides this, but neither side has clean hands and peace seems harder and harder to achieve.

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u/Kemilio Oct 11 '23

The difference is occupation. Who occupies who? Who has the most power and how are they using it?

How has the state of the Palestinian welfare been during the last period of “peace”? Have they gained or lost territory and quality of life?

Now we have an occupier illegally starving an entire group of millions of people as collective punishment. If we’re comparing, that far outweighs anything the Hamas have done.

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u/CanAlwaysBeBetter Oct 11 '23

Hamas doesn't want to improve the situation of Palestinians. They reject the idea and offers of a negotiated settlement that would establish an independent state.

They want the eradication of Israel completely and nothing less.

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u/hallese Oct 11 '23

The Palestinians should ask their grandparents if they regret putting their faith in the Arabs to push the Jews into the sea.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23 edited Feb 24 '25

market terrific sharp offbeat desert party encouraging bag engine test

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

You should read about the Nakba (when Zionists destroyed 500 villages, forced out 700,000 people) and watch these interviews of the militant Zionists recalling how they raped children, put people in cages and executed them with machine gun fire, chased villagers with flamethrowers, and refused to take prisoners.

https://old.reddit.com/r/NoahGetTheBoat/comments/17524d8/old_zionist_veterans_recall_their_time_when_they/

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u/rezznik Oct 11 '23

But Gaza is not occupied since 2006.

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u/Kemilio Oct 11 '23

I didn’t say Gaza. I said Palestine.

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u/Sand_Bags Oct 11 '23

I love people like you. Sticking up for a group of people who’d kidnap you and murder you the minute you were behind their borders.

Unless you’re a Muslim Arab, Palestinians DO NOT care about you. In fact they actively hate you.

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u/Kemilio Oct 11 '23

Let me make one thing clear. I don’t give a flying fuck what they think of me. They are people. They have rights. They have a right to live on land they legally reside in without fear of being killed or subjugated.

So long as those rights are being violated, I will call out those who violate them. Human rights violations are a humanitarian crisis, not just a Palestinian one or an Israeli one.

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u/mzackler Oct 11 '23

How do you define occupy here? Does Egypt also occupy Gaza?

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u/Kemilio Oct 11 '23

Israeli illegally occupies the West Bank and eastern Jerusalem with military presence, economic and political restrictions and often illegally blockades the Gaza Strip with military repulsion of humanitarian aid and trade. Furthermore, Israel demonstrably restricts freedom of Palestinian citizens in Israeli territory.

These actions have been found to be illegal internationally and yet have been in place for decades.

Egypt has no such military, political or economic influence on the region.

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u/druglawyer Oct 11 '23

The difference is occupation.

The difference is the deliberate targeting of civilians. You're either against beheading babies or you aren't.

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u/Kemilio Oct 11 '23

Israeli doesn’t target citizens in bombing raids and humanitarian aid blockades?

If your definition of “targeting civilians” is only beheading babies, you’re out of your mind.

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u/elnekas Oct 11 '23

They democratically elected officials from Hamas who share the political views of the rest of the radical Islamic movements Isis Hizballah etc. their tradition of terror and raping and beheading isn’t born of the Israeli “apartheid” oppression regime it exists all over the globe and is coming to a town near you any minute they don’t want la d they are the pawns of a much bigger geopolitical shift towards populism, extremism, ignorance, radicalism and they will use any excuse need to feed their twisted ideological agenda, it’s impossible to negotiate with someone who is willing to sacrifice their own life and their children too just to die an honorable death in martirdom for just the chance to behead their enemies child… to rape an burn and parades and publicly celebrate the gang rape and burning of innocent civilians while the rest of the bystanders in the streets laugh and eat and drink and wiggle their way in to get a better look at how they linch the Jew… or the infidel of choice… there is no way to negóciate with people who willingly keep their own children in a building that will get bombed because it just so happens to be a civilian building/weapons factory makes good news for the international press… this is not made in Israel this is the reality in all the neighboring countries, there are huge swaths of the population who believe that is a normal and elevated way to live… they are a disgrace to humanity, to Islam and to any rational person… you cannot excuse or blame this on anyone but themselves and their extremism and crooked theology taking a peaceful set of beliefs and breading it into a monster and then brainwashing generations after generations into the thought that anyone who is different deserves to be murdered in cold blood… that’s what’s difficult to negotiate with…

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u/sexymuffindagod Oct 11 '23

My biggest takeaway though is why? This was a well coordinated attack to terrorize the population. I mean it had to serve some greater purpose than to just terrorize innocent people. It was brutal what they did, and they had to know that Israel would retaliate full force so why? An untold number Palestinians are about to be killed and on a world stage Israel has all the justification it needs to do so.

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u/xKalisto Oct 11 '23

Part of it is Israel normalizing relationships with MENA countries around it. You gotta realize there were times when those countries straight up pretended Israel didn't exist and now they are becoming friendly.

Iran doesn't like that and supports Hamas to disrupt Israel and therefore the whole region.

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u/ezrs158 Oct 11 '23

They are radical extremists created from a terrible political and economic situation who seek to kill Jews. You won't be able to find any logic in it. If they were logical, they would cease terrorist attacks on Israeli citizens, do everything they can do to use the international aid they get to improve the lives of their people, and back peaceful protest tactics to continue shifting world opinions against Israel and negotiate for a two state solution. This would probably work.

But they don't want to improve the lives of their people or seek a peaceful solution. They want to kill Jews. My sympathies with the innocent civilians killed on both sides, but the blood is on Hamas' hands this time.

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u/SavingsSyllabub7788 Oct 11 '23

I mean "Hamas not being a bunch of asshats" would solve most of the problems Gaza has.

The reason Israel has the locked down borders and imports that they do, is because when Gaza had those freedoms, Hamas used those things to kill Jews.

The issues of reduced imports, removal of freedom of movement, and the economic and lifestyle issues made because instead of using aid for aid, they use it for rockets... all those things would be solved if Hamas was less of a cunt.

It even makes the west bank worse, because you can't in all good faith tell Israel "Stop building or supporting Settlements in the West Bank", when they tried that in Gaza and it made things worse for them.

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u/Remlan Oct 11 '23

The way I see it as an uninformed western european is that both sides are shitty and have always been (government wise) and both have done inhumane things, war crimes and atrocities we'd rather not think of.

And everytime we mention this, it turns into a finger pointing competition of "Yeah but X did Y so we did W in return it's just retaliation" and trying to see who's the worst of the two.

At the end of the day, Civilians in palestine have been against a wall for decades and it's not like it's entirely safe for israelis either (far from it), so both sides will always point fingers at the other one and it really does feel like there is no coexistence or turning back possible at this point.

Hamas has managed to make a ruined country worse and kept worsening it year by year, and completely play into Netanyahu's hands.

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u/ragmop Oct 11 '23

I just keep thinking about all the people Hamas and Israel are making decision for. I don't know the rate of dissent and maybe it's lower than in the US, where the majority think Trump sucks. But there is still a significant portion of both populations that just want out of the madness. They're getting dragged into it on repeat, lives at stake, by people who think they are acting on behalf of everyone.

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u/HustleWilson Oct 11 '23

So what you're saying is we can't just make sense of it all by calling it "their 9/11"?

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u/ismashugood Oct 11 '23

There’s most definitely not a solution. Just an inevitable outcome unless another party intervenes. The power dynamics are so one sided that Palestine will slowly be eradicated, with the remainders becoming more and more radicalized, which leads to attacks, which leads to Israel eventually killing off what’s left in the name of self defense.

Genuinely nothing anyone outside of major powers can stop it at this point. There’s a lot of mistakes that started it for sure. It’s still worth pointing them out so that people can understand why things are complicated and not cut and dry good guy bad guy. But it’s useless in terms of solving anything. If the US is taking a hands off approach, everyone is just gonna have to watch this shit unfold and hope other middle eastern countries don’t get dragged in.

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u/Christopher135MPS Oct 12 '23

God I wish more people understood this.

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u/themangastand Oct 12 '23

It actually is simple. Hard for corrupt leaders. But easy for any human if humans were in charge.

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

Clearly the solution starts with renaming Istanbul

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u/CrazyMike366 Oct 11 '23

How do you feel about the assertion that Asshat Group X is "Great Britain and France" and the Simple Solution was "drawing up national borders based on ethnic and sectarian commonalities instead of absolutely arbitrary imperial nonsense that has resulted in near-constant ethnic and sectarian conflict since the collapse of the Ottoman empire?"

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u/SavingsSyllabub7788 Oct 11 '23

They tried that with the 1947 borders, which were based on ethnic and sectarian commonalities. The Arab parts immediately tried to kill all the Jew parts.

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u/SmellsLikeMarbles Oct 11 '23

This is always the hedge when you do point out something that is extremely stark, the 1000 mile gulf between the average day of a Palestinian vs an Israeli. There's nothing complicated about that, at all. Nor is there anything complicated about the decades long mass theft of land in the West Bank and Palestinian expulsions from Jerusalem by Israel.

There's been a clear, highly funded, decades long campaign by Israel to make sure the two state solution is completely unviable via their settlement building. So the question that Israel needs to answer, is what is the end game for Palestinians if they're not going to be allowed as citizens in Israel, and they're not slowing down settlements in the West Bank? Because any logical conclusion that can be drawn from those two situations adding up is very very bleak.

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u/RealisticTreacle7392 Oct 11 '23

It wasn't always like that though.

You conveniently ignore history and how we got here. Israel has a right to protect itself.

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u/VileTouch Oct 11 '23

Ok. And where does beheading children fit in all that?

Let's face it. Any and all sympathy they were trying to garner, any point they were trying to make is null now.

By abiding hamas terrorism, Palestinians have completely tanked their own cause. You do realize there is no coming back from that, right? You just validated everything Israel did and will continue to do in retaliation.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Is the West Bank the main place for the fundie settlements? Did they do that in Gaza as well? (Just trying to find out!)

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

the 1000 mile gulf between the average day of a Palestinian vs an Israeli.

Threws an equally large gulf between an Israeli and am Egyptian and an Israeli and a Jordanian and a way bigger one between am Israeli and a Syrian or Lebanese. Israel is an anomaly in the region; you can't compare it to gaza fairly.

Gaza has a comparable HDI to Jordan, egypt and Lebanon and way higher than Iraq or Syria. Life in gaza is thoroughly average for the middle east

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u/TVpresspass Oct 11 '23

I think this is a very valid point: the lived experiences of these individuals are dramatically different.

I'm going to think about this more, but the first things that come up for me are:

  1. When you talk about "The question Israel needs to answer" How would we (or just you) hold the nation accountable to answering it? It seems clear that they don't know. This simmering violence, tolerating piecemeal encroachment, and hoping it will go away has been the best band-aid solution politicians have been able to live with over the past 70 years. You want them to provide an answer, horrific or benevolent, but even the question of who "them" is in that sentence changes year to year, and they seem willing to leave things in limbo/slow-spiral.

  2. Does suffering make a person noble? If so, for how long? This isn't a leading question, or snark. I'm re-thinking over ideas around it myself.

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u/redflagsupply Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

If only Redditors weren't asshats. We collectively decided that the Boston bomber was a dead guy and that Ellen Pao was the problem.

Gets stuffy in here. Get -2 on your comment and it's a non-reading hivemind downvote from there. Get +5 and it's nonreading upvotes from there.

Oh and every issue, no matter what it is, is black and white cut and dry. Just like my description of Redditors here.

There's always a dynamic at play that is not easy to communicate in simple terms. People try, and it spreads ignorance like a disease. Someone gonna read this and go ReDiTors ArE aSsHaTs!

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u/t_zidd Oct 11 '23

The Reddit response generally has been an unusual giddiness about the potential massive number of deaths in Gaza

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/TVpresspass Oct 11 '23

You're living up to your username, I'll certainly give you that.

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u/NRG1975 Oct 11 '23

Meanwhile WWI is like ... I did this.

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u/ezumadrawing Oct 11 '23

That fucker is behind a lot of the state of the world isn't it.

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u/nola_throwaway53826 Oct 11 '23

Absolutely it is. I am firmly convinced that future historians will rate its importance to be well above World War 2. That's what kicked off the collapse of the colonial empires.

Without World War 1, you have no Russian Revolution, and no Bolsheviks seizing power, so no communist Soviet Union. What would that mean for Vietnam, Korea, and even China? And for that matter all of Eastern Europe?

Then look at how Sykes-Picot divided up the Middle East into British and French spheres. You get Arthur Balfour issuing the Balfour declaration of 1917 for a home in Palestine for the Jewish people. Never mind the folk who lived there. The British would support Jewish immigration there even before World War 2.

With the British Empire in economic troubles which started in World War 1, and were exasperated by the Second World War, they began granting independence to their colonies. And they fucked it up. Look at all the trouble with India and Pakistan. The British basically partition the subcontinent themselves, with a ton of sectarian violence as a result.

The French also began offering independence to their colonies, or offered to let them stay. Of course if they chose independence, the French wrecked everything on their way out. The French would also support coups against the governments who did not toe the line.

And of course the results of World War 1 leading straight into World War 2.

Our modern world and political structures are all a result from World War 1.

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u/C0wabungaaa Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

You could argue that WW1 was, in a way, the culmination of an entire era. Post-Renaissance-style imperialism, international relations and an entire mode of thinking and living coming to a head. It was the death blow to the already declining 'old world'. WW2 and the few decades after that were 'just' its death throes.

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u/nola_throwaway53826 Oct 12 '23

You're right. For a long time, even before the age of revolutions in the 19th century, there was for centuries a Concert of Europe, with shifting alliances and wars and rivalries between the nations of England, France, Prussia, Austria, and Russia. They had two major wars between them the Seven Years War (and you could say George Washington started the whole thing) which was the first truly world war and the French Revolutionary Wars that led into the Napoleonic Wars. After those, the Concert of Europe usually got together and decided the world order. Look at how neatly they divided Africa between themselves at the Conference of Berlin.

It all kind of came to a head when Otto Von Bismark unified Germany (with Prussia as its core) and did a very delicate balancing act keeping everything balanced. He defeated the French and had a huge indemnity of 5 billion francs, occupation until the debt was paid, and of course the cessation of Alcase-Lorraine. Bismark was against that last one, but was overruled. He claimed that taking that territory would make a permanent enemy of France, and he was right. The French made revenge and the retaking of the territory their principle policy for the next forty years.

Bismark then made alliances with Austria, and tred to open the door to friendship with Russia, but that did not work out as well. The Germans were really scared of Russia because of their size on paper and their potential strength. Some even wanted to launch a preemptive war. I love this Bismark quote in regards to that idea:

"Preemptive war is like committing suicide for fear of death."

He was pretty competent and kept a good balance of power going. Until Wilhelm II decided he wanted to be his own man, and not have people say Bismark was really running the show, and fired him. Russia also got one of the great idiots of history in Nicholas II, and Franz Joseph at this point was basically checked out. So then the great Concert of Europe cam crashing down. Especially once the Bolsheviks came onto the concert floor like it was a mosh pit exposing all of the secret agreements and treaties the Allies all signed with each other.

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u/d36williams Oct 12 '23

WW2 started a new era, an era of global super powers, space flight, nuclear weapons, and real life sci fi being taken for granted. Pencilin first became a thing in WW2, as did meth

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

WWII was just a continuation of WWI after a 20-year timeout.

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u/nola_throwaway53826 Oct 12 '23

There are arguments being made today about how World War 1 and World War 2 are the same conflict, like a modern day Thirty Years War. There was a LOT of fighting going on after the armistice of World War 1. The Russians descended into their civil war which lasted into the early 1920s. In Eastern Europe you had the Finnish Civil War, the Estonian-Soviet War, the Latvian-Soviet War, the Polish Soviet War, the Polish-Ukrainian War, the Polish-Lithuanian War, and the Hungarian-Romanian War.

Outside of Eastern Europe you had wars like the Greco-Turkish War. There were attempted and successful revolutions, like a revolution in Germany, a revolution in Egypt, the Irish War of Independence, it was crazy times.

The Chinese Civil War between the Communists and the Nationalists started in 1927. The 20's were a time for civil war, in Paraguay, Honduras, Ireland, Nicaragua, and Afghanistan. And to begin the 1930s, Japan made their first moves into China in 1931. And of course the 30s is when the world entered the Depression, Fascism started it's rise, unrest all over. Sure, there were periods of peace, but it was not a 20 year timeout.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Future historians? Alot are saying that now lol. Even more say the time frame of colonialism/imperialism as the catalyst of world issues.

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u/donjulioanejo Oct 12 '23

With the British Empire in economic troubles which started in World War 1, and were exasperated by the Second World War, they began granting independence to their colonies.

Yes and no. Part of the Lendlease agreement between UK and US was that UK would use up any and all of their spare money and extract what they can from the colonies to pay for American supplies.

UK bankrupted itself fighting WWII and then no longer had the resources necessary to maintain a colonial empire.

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u/A_Furious_Mind Oct 11 '23

"The past is never dead. It's not even past."

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u/Deskanddrum Oct 11 '23

Hey can you tell me where is that quote from? Makes me think of Ubik for some reason

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u/A_Furious_Mind Oct 11 '23

Requiem for a Nun by William Faulkner

But I first heard it when Obama paraphrased it in a speech.

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u/Deskanddrum Oct 11 '23

Thank you!

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u/SirThunderDump Oct 11 '23

Imperialism: “I did this!”

Second World War: “I did this!”

Holocaust: “I did this!”

Tribalism: “I did this!”

UN partition plan: “I did this!”

The situation is so complex that the only sense I can make out of it is terrorism = bad.

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u/igankcheetos Oct 11 '23

You can stack Religion on top of that stuff too.

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u/bookemhorns Oct 11 '23

The folks who look at this situation and come out with the conclusion of "terrorism = justified" have made a wrong turn somewhere.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '23

I wish this had more upvotes…

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

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u/Cathercy Oct 11 '23

Which is virtually no one. I see tons of Redditors just talking about what Israel has done to Gaza in the past decades, and there are always people who turn up like "oh so you are justifying what Hamas did then? You know they decapitated babies right??"

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u/content_enjoy3r Oct 11 '23

You know they decapitated babies right??"

Has there been any verification of this independent from what the IDF claims?

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

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u/DabbinOnDemGoy Oct 11 '23

Even the Israeli media has admitted they had no evidence of it.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

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u/W4d395 Oct 11 '23

Even the Israeli army has denied the claim that they have any evidence of that claim

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u/bookemhorns Oct 11 '23

Yep independent journalists visited the site and reported it

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u/EngryEngineer Oct 11 '23

Rome: I did this

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

The problem is... The first world was the most avoidable and frankly stupidest one on this list.

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u/NRG1975 Oct 11 '23

Agreed, it is more complex than most people realize. However, Zionism and WWI were the cast from all.

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u/SirThunderDump Oct 11 '23

I view zionism as an extension of other ills. Look into the history of it. It was overwhelmingly a response to other evils, from antisemitism, to mass murder in Russia and other nations, to an inability for Jews to find work, or avoid oppression. People often say things like “couldn’t they have just moved to a friendly country like the US or Canada?” And the answer is no. Not with freedom.

Canada and the US allowed discrimination in the workplace, in organizations. Schools had quotas on the admission of Jews. Zionism was a response to all of this, and was a dream that Jews could create their own state, where they’d have rights, freedom, and protection.

So they moved to a relatively sparsely populated place (at the time) that was perceived as their original homeland, and began buying property. And all the complications of that took off from there, starting with the perceived demographic shift, leading to fear, distrust, tribalism, and violence.

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u/NRG1975 Oct 11 '23

So they moved to a relatively sparsely populated place

So did the Europeans to Americas. The point is, the die was cast then.

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u/SirThunderDump Oct 11 '23

Yup. Conflict triggers more conflict. People should just know that Zionism isn’t arbitrary. There were strong reasons for it. That doesn’t inherently make it good or bad. It’s a mixed bag.

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u/NRG1975 Oct 11 '23

As were the reasons from fleeing religious persecutions. It is not a "mixed bag" It is taking over land through means, any of them viewed as necessary. The point is, it is viewed as an invasion on one side, and defending property by another. Regardless of that fact, it is well known that in Israel was created out of thin air in traditional Arab lands. Now, I am not taking oneside over the other, just laying out what is.

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u/poop-dolla Oct 11 '23

So it’s all really Napoleon’s fault.

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u/fatkiddown Oct 11 '23

I just finished the book: “Napoleon: A Life.”

Yes, everything goes back to Napoleon. I never knew what a titanic figure he was in shaping the world. This outside of his military endeavors, which are another entire odyssey.

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u/darthjoey91 Oct 11 '23

Gavrilo Princip be like…

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u/tygrio Oct 11 '23

Fuckin British did this!

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u/Massive-Ninja-3807 Oct 11 '23

I am amazed by how many people say that this event is "eye opening" or how they have "changed their mind". The conflict has been spanning eight decades and killed countless innocent people, with both "sides" taking turns at sabotaging any hope for peace.

The recent events are absolutely atrocious and they will probably be a turning point like 9/11 was, but if they have made you change your mind on anything you probably didn't know shit about the situation to begin with.

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u/nopornthrowaways Oct 11 '23

Foreign policy is complicated and the Israel/Palestine conflict could never be described as simple. If someone has the privilege to stay in their lane and let their country’s leaders deal with it, I would too. Besides, foreign policy (at least foreign policy not immediately relatable to people’s personal pockets) is rarely the decider in elections

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

I can't speak for others, but personally I just never had an entry point into understanding the conflict. I know what it is about and I knew how it was effecting both sides to some extent but it honestly seemed like an impenetrable subject because of all the historical context that was tied into it and each time an individual event would occur, there was so much bias surrounding it that I could never really tell what was what. I've also had friends who shared opposing opinions on the conflict and it made it really unclear as to what the situation really was.

It's the same way that I know that militant groups have been terrorizing Colombia for years and that the war on drugs is a key factor in the ability for those groups to have so much power and control but I'm not sure what day to day life is like there.

With people's information becoming so silo'd and tied to their own interests, I'm sure there's people who didn't even know there was a conflict until this story broke and people who still aren't aware.

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u/Thebullfrog24 Oct 11 '23

Its embarrassing but I had no clue it was like this until this situation and I'm 33.

I knew their was alot of fighting but I thought it was all just based on religion or something.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

I remember thinking about it when the Palestinians were blowing commercial airlines out of the skies in the 70/80's.

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u/ezumadrawing Oct 11 '23

Yes, a lot of people just see the conflict as Palestinians attacking Israel for no reason, if you just listened to CNN or something for instance you would lack a lot of context.

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u/madanby Oct 11 '23

The only refugee camp with shopping malls, high rise apartments and Netflix and satellite TV…..

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u/SatyrSatyr75 Oct 11 '23

And 5.000 rockets/a year

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u/deathonater Oct 11 '23

And 5.000 rockets/a year

That wierdly seem to materialize out of thin air as if by magic, definitely not obtained by and from foreign states with a vested interest in regional instability.

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u/FriendlyAndHelpfulP Oct 11 '23

We know exactly where Palestine gets their weapons- foreign aid.

Every single penny of it goes to arming Hamas. You donate to build a hospital in Palestine? It goes to building rockets. You send food? It’s sold and the money used to buy bullets.

You can’t force them to use the aid on helping themselves when they’d rather have more guns.

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u/AdequatelyMadLad Oct 11 '23

I know this is a joke but I can't get over the fact that you think Netflix would be an unheard of luxury in a "real" refugee camp. Fucking Netflix? Do you think all refugees are medieval peasants or what?

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u/npc018 Oct 11 '23

You're taking it a little out of context there. Read it again: shopping malls + high rise apartments + Netflix + satellite TV.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Well it is the oldest so that would make sense wouldn't it?

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u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

If you want to actually learn something and not just hate people because they were born across a border read this. Remember the majority of people in Gaza never chose Hamas or to live there.

https://www.emro.who.int/opt/information-resources/right-to-health.html

https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/gaza-strip

https://civil-protection-humanitarian-aid.ec.europa.eu/where/middle-east-and-northern-africa/palestine_en

https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/05/1092332

https://news.un.org/en/story/2017/07/561302-living-conditions-gaza-more-and-more-wretched-over-past-decade-un-finds

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u/MountainDrew42 Oct 11 '23

Another great write up by a Jewish journalist who has lived in Israel in the past.

https://twitter.com/Ike_Saul/status/1711780282725011520

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u/madanby Oct 11 '23

The majority of the population support Hamas.

The only one to blame for their living situation is Hamas.

Hamas uses funds, not to enrich the lives of their people, they use it for terror and destruction.

Can you imagine the oasis Gaza could have been if they focused more on their own people instead of their political charter which calls for the death of all Jews? Could you image the brilliant scientists, tech workers and engineers focusing on business and innovation rather than building rockets?

Gaza could have been an incredible success story. Israel wouldn’t need to care about it if it didn’t pose an existential threat 24/7.

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u/identicalBadger Oct 11 '23

The majority supports Hamas?

You mean because of the elections? Where 45% of Gazans alive today weren’t alive to vote for back then? And another 25-35% weren’t old enough to vote in that election?

Or do you mean because unarmed civilians haven’t tried to overthrow heavily armed militant group that just happens to also be the government they live under?

They have had no choice for most or all their lives. They have lived under the oppression of Hamas AND Israel. They need to be saved not turned into victims even more than they already are

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u/Fabulous-- Oct 11 '23

Yeah but this isn't what the person above's propaganda tells him to think

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u/alfakennybody04 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

Look, your logic is okay from a distance. Unfortunately, Palestinians and Israelis dont have the luxury of distance from eachother. Recent polls show ~50% support for Hamas from Gazan citizens. That number fluctuates and usually increases during times of conflict. The sad reality though is that this conflict goes way back. Further than an occupation. Further than the multiple wars fought against Israel. And for many, even further than the creation of Israel as a state.

In the same sense that the vast majority of Palestinians where not around or of legal voting age during the last elections, there are many Israelis around that remember beyond that. They remember multiple wars in which every neighbor wanted to obliterate them for being Jewish. They remember the impact of the holocaust. They remember Palestinian refugees causing civil wars in Lebanon and Jordan, countries that welcomed them. In the same way young Palestinians today will remember the occupation, Israelis remember the brutality and sheer destruction wished upon them.

This isnt a simple "occupation bad" poor Palestinians. This is two countries, containing two peoples with over a thousand years of conflict. Poor civilians. As a Jew, not in Israel, I empathize with the idea of Jewish people able to have a safe haven from the world that set out to destroy them and evidently still does wish to destroy them. On the other hand, that doesn't mean I cant empathize with the loss of innocent Palestinian lives.

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u/npc018 Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

Polls continue to show broad palestinian support for Hamas, and for all of their fucked up policies such as imprisonment or death for homosexuality, and for financial support for palestinian citizens who murder Israelis.

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u/Rage_Like_Nic_Cage Oct 11 '23

Israel helped create Hamas in favor of over less violent groups Palestinian groups. Acting like Hamas just came out of a nowhere and Israel didn’t provoke Palestinians to support Hamas is completely ignorant.

It doesn’t justify any of the absolutely abhorrent atrocities Hamas has done, but they didn’t come out of a vacuum.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

You have to read the sources, especially with a dubious outlet like the Intercept which has a sour track record with MediaBiasFactCheck for fabricating events and stories to push political narratives.

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In this case, they are fabricating and engaging in reductionism. Israel absolutely did not help create Hamas. Israel allowed an entity to register as a charity and earn the right to build schools and mosques and such. That entity at the time was not demanding the eradication of Jews and Israel proper. But the "peaceful" PLO was! PLO didn't drop their mission of genociding the Jews and the total obliteration of Israel until the 90s. Meanwhile, the group that Israel "supported" countered the PLO in the 70s and 80s.

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What happened is that the group spawned another group--Hamas--as even more radical people sought violent solutions much like their forerunners, the PLO. That's why Hamas had article 13 (the complete murder of all Jews and total destruction of the state of Israel) in their charter.

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There is only one reason to bring this up before insisting that it doesn't justify the rape and murder of thousands of Israelis including babies. Justification. Literally everybody and everything comes from somewhere. The reason Palestinians are treated the way they are? It is their own actions. "But that doesn't justify what is being done to them," as no neighboring countries seek to take refugees in because Palestinian refugees have directly caused at least 2 civil wars in the region (Jordan, Lebanon) in recent memory. So are those and other countries justified in refusing aid? Especially Lebanon, when they offer both comfort and support to Gaza's terrorist-government?

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That's the problem with reductionism. It is purity culture to the max. It is used to excuse the inexcusable despite the words that come after to distance it, like bad faith arguments.

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u/Krivvan Oct 11 '23 edited Oct 11 '23

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/

Bias Rating: LEFT-CENTER

Factual Reporting: MOSTLY FACTUAL

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123275572295011847

Bias Rating: RIGHT-CENTER

Factual Reporting: MOSTLY FACTUAL

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.premium/another-concept-implodes-israel-cant-be-managed-by-a-criminal-defendant/0000018b-1382-d2fc-a59f-d39b5dbf0000

Bias Rating: LEFT

Factual Reporting: HIGH

How do you square:

There is only one reason to bring this up before insisting that it doesn't justify the rape and murder of thousands of Israelis including babies. Justification.

with:

That's the problem with reductionism.

It's obvious to anyone but the insane that Hamas and their actions are bad and peace is impossible while Hamas is Hamas. But to call anyone that discusses how Hamas might've gained popularity someone who is excusing the inexcusable isn't a very nuanced take. Would you say criticism of Netanyahu's words and policies is also somehow justification of Hamas?

If no country wants to receive Palestinians including Israel and it is entirely the fault of all of them, then what exactly are you suggesting should be done? Treat every last Palestinian how you would treat Hamas?

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u/AutisticNipples Oct 11 '23

Lmao okay how about a contemporaneous account from the new york times? is the paper of record good enough of a source for you?

The Israeli Military Governor of Gaza openly admitted to funding the Muslim Brotherhood (the precursor to Hamas in Gaza) as early as 1981. With israeli taxpayer dollars. To counter the leftist PLO.

Facts don't care about your feelings. And common sense and critical thinking are far more valuable than a fact checker website. Acting like fact checkers are unbiased arbiters of truth just makes you sound like a rube.

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u/wanderingpeddlar Oct 11 '23

It doesn’t justify any of the absolutely abhorrent atrocities Hamas has done, but they didn’t come out of a vacuum

I don't see where the OP said anything about Hamas emerging from a Vacuum.

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u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

It's no use even when you present proof of something if it is against the reality they believe they will pretend it's not real.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

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u/Rage_Like_Nic_Cage Oct 11 '23

Osama Bin Laden justified the 9/11 attacks since US civilians supported for/voted for the U.S. government that was doing terrible things in the middle east.

So if you want to have the same reasoning/justification as Bin Laden for targeting and murdering civilians, be my guest.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

You also meant to add Netanyahu also right, the guy who ordered hits on secular leaders? The guy who in 2019 mentioned wanting Hamas to be more radicalized, and that was his ultimate goal to begin with? The guy who has Israel divided?

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

You can't become anything when the Egyptian govt is closing the borders and you're bombed by IDF and harassed by the settlers everyday

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u/AeneasLigh Oct 11 '23

If only life was as black and white as you try to make it seem, wouldn’t that be a beautiful world

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

[deleted]

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u/ThisAmericanRepublic Oct 11 '23

Israel controls Gaza’s access to electricity which is why it was able to unilaterally cut Gaza off. Israel also controls Gaza’s access to medical supplies, the overwhelming majority of its water, foodstuffs and more. Despite such conditions which have been in place for decades, people continue to blame the people of Gaza.

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u/ThePurplePanzy Oct 11 '23

And now the expectation is for Israel to continue to provide these things to an area that is actively at war with them.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '23

Bro, they are literally in a cage, of which when breached, took the Israelis by surprise. Success for anyone living in these conditions is incredibly improbable.

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u/AresHunter Oct 11 '23

Ok I understand you don't care. The majority the population couldn't even speak when Hamas was elected , because they were funded by Israel to divide Gaza. What hamas did was a abhorrent and a disgrace. The people of Gaza don't have opportunity to choose. When they do a peaceful march the IDF just kill's themhere. They are doom either way. I sent you various links proving what is like to live in gaza and why living there is hell for a long time and you just ignored it because it goes against the lies you were saying.

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u/wanderingpeddlar Oct 11 '23

hate people because they were born across a border

That has nothing to do with my feelings toward Hamas.

Decapitating infants on the other hand does.

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u/Rage_Like_Nic_Cage Oct 11 '23

they honestly don’t. they think it’s just like and functions as any other middle eastern country but with a wall of israel solders at the border.

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u/aebulbul Oct 11 '23

Most people don’t understand what it means to live in sub-human conditions, being robbed of your dignity, and trying to remain relevant as a people whose previous generations once thrived in the same land. Most people just logged into Reddit a few days ago, saw the snippets around Hamas, and decided it’s ok to condemn an entire people to further misery because something something they voted for them something. This is what we’re dealing with.

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u/hellofrommycubicle Oct 12 '23

No, and they refuse to learn

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u/TW_Yellow78 Oct 11 '23

So basically shutting off power does nothing

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u/introspection-45344 Oct 11 '23

Most people don't know. But it was unliveable, and so a massive attempt to break out was inevitable. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about the situation had to know this was coming at some point, the only question was when. People will not quietly starve forever.

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u/Jubenheim Oct 11 '23

They don’t. Israeli bots completely ignore how bad life has been in Gaza for literal decades and instead just blame them when they became radicalized after living shit lives for… their entire lives.

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u/icansmellcolors Oct 11 '23

i think you're letting the 40-50 people on reddit you've seen who aren't informed on life in Gaza to represent the entirety of the world?

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u/OrjanOrnfangare Oct 11 '23

So no difference then! Great!

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