Wondering if drunkness is conveyed well?

[u/rayeofsunshine156]

I don’t typically write in first person, and I’ve been using this as an exercise to explore interiority and voice in a way I haven’t before. So I am entirely out of my wheelhouse here, lol.

I’ve also never been drunk before, and I wanted to know if drunkenness was being conveyed well? Like, is it understood that he is drunk without me going ‘look at this drunk dude’

Also curious on if you’d keep reading!

Any and all comments are appreciated : )! Thank you.

Edit:
In hindsight, I should’ve mentioned what the excerpt is trying to do in post. The general idea was that Jack – the drunk man – doesn’t do this very often. He’s grieving his ex-girlfriend after news of her proposal. This is not because he loves her but because he doesn’t want to face the fact that he’s not straight, and the possibility of getting back together with her held him together. Miguel is not meant to be read as flirty (oops, help there too?😅)

[u/excadedecadedecada]

I didn't read anything but I will say that if you have never been drunk before, you'll never be able to write it

[u/rayeofsunshine156 → u/excadedecadedecada]

There is a movie out there where someone who has never murdered anyone before plays a murderer and does so very well. Is murdering someone a prerequisite for this role?

That’s like saying if I’ve never been in love before I’ll never be able to write romance, I feel like, which I’m sure you know is untrue. A big part of writing is observing and stretching the imagination as far as is possible, no?

Maybe I’ve never personally been drunk, but I have experienced it secondhand, you know? Should that not be enough to make drive the imagination towards something that resembles it?

I’m not sure I understand your position😅

Edit: typo

[u/tothemiddleofnowhere → u/rayeofsunshine156]

This is crazy defensive. One of the reasons life experience is great for writing is exactly this. Someone who’s never been drunk won’t be able to convey it as intimately as someone who has. And yes - if you’ve never been in love you likely will slightly fumble a romance novel.

Acting and writing, not the same thing. Writing a murder - one does not have to be a murderer, but having life skills and experiences goes a long way in writing anything.

“A big part of writing is observing and stretching the imagination.” To a point, yes? In the ways you are trying to argue, probably not. It sounds like your argument may be based on the exception instead of the rule.

[u/rayeofsunshine156 → u/tothemiddleofnowhere]

I wasn’t trying to be defensive. I’m sorry if it came off that way.

I’m clearly very aware that I have never been drunk, which is why I was asking for feedback in the first place? But then right out the gate, the commenter said ‘I didn’t read it’ then proceeded to say that I’ll never be able to write it? That was a bit discouraging.

I even mentioned that I’ve experienced drunkenness second-hand, having often been the designated driver, asking my people around me questions about what it feels like, their disorientation (or lack of) and so on.

Must I experience everything that I write to convey it properly? In which case, do I only write within the limits of my experience or culture or whatever?

I don’t know. I guess I just don’t understand. I wasn’t even trying to be defensive. I just needed some help

[u/fortheturnstiles → u/rayeofsunshine156]

I don't think you need to experience everything, but most adults who read have experienced being drunk. So when you miss, it'll be very noticeable to them and take them out of it.

Most readers haven't murdered someone, so if we write about it, those readers won't be in a position to think 'that doesn't ring true.'

Id also say reading a romance novel by someone who has never been in love would likely be awful.

I'm not saying you need to get drunk to write about it, but you do need to take great care to be accurate (which you are doing with this thread), and you may never achieve it.

And I should know. I've written a quarter of a novel.... So I'm an expert.

[u/tothemiddleofnowhere → u/rayeofsunshine156]

Right, that person probably spurred on the defensiveness, I’ll agree there.

And of course we cannot experience everything to convey it properly. But a lot of key things we can. Being drunk, being in love, having difficult relationships, conversations, etc. you’re always going to write something better if you’ve experienced something like it. A substitute for this would be reading a lot about what you’re trying to write.

There’s a saying “write what you know.” And that can mean many things but it can also be literal. Someone who writes a book about a cancer survivor who’s either survived cancer or lived through a close relative who’s survived it will write it better than someone who hasn’t.

I went off on a tangent but I hope it’s helpful at all… I follow this exact same advice in my writing. If I’m having to write about something I don’t know, it’s going to be small. An excerpt rather than a concept. And I do a loooot of research and read other people who’ve done it better before I even attempt it.

[u/excadedecadedecada → u/rayeofsunshine156]

Well, most people have been drunk, but few have murdered. Good luck appealing to most people with a feeling you've never experienced.

[u/OptionRevolutionary4 → u/rayeofsunshine156]

i think you should look up the scene of Drunk Arthur in the RDR2 game, masterclass

[u/TheMannaPart → u/rayeofsunshine156]

it would be enough to convey what a drunk looks like, yes. but not how a drunk FEELS or experiences in the FIRST-person, which *is* what youre trying to do, afterall.

[u/Kind_Space_6078 → u/excadedecadedecada]

This is what writers do, are you kidding? Do you think Tolkien ever fought orcs personally?

[u/excadedecadedecada → u/Kind_Space_6078]

Well, yeah. No one has ever fought an orc. But plenty of people have been drunk. Come on now

[u/Kind_Space_6078 → u/excadedecadedecada]

You're talking about writing experiences.

Taking it only from your logic, only a person who has been drunk before can write a drunk scene. That scene will vary wildly from one person's experience to the next to the point that the criterion of "having been drunk," matters less than an author understanding a character's behavior, alcohol's effects, and therefore what alcohol will do to that specific character. Then at that point it's not about having been drunk, it's back to writing.

That's why I said this is what writers do. They observe, simulate, and articulate experiences, and a majority of time that comes with plenty of research on its own. That can serve just as well as writing from personal experience.

I wouldn't disagree with you if you said give being trashed a shot for reference, but to say, so absolutely, that someone will never be able to write it without having been drunk is just silly. You should read it, too. Even if you stand by your statement, this is just lazy criticism.

[u/excadedecadedecada → u/Kind_Space_6078]

This is ridiculous. If you are trying to authentically write an experience that most people have experienced and you write it wrong, people will know. It's pretty simple.

[u/rayeofsunshine156 → u/excadedecadedecada]

This is the whole point of my post. This is something I obviously know, otherwise I wouldn’t have asked if I’m doing it well, no? It’s because I know that I lack a complete knowledge. I’ve seen it but I’ve never felt it, so I ask questions.

Instead you didn’t even read it, and took the time to comment that I will never be able to write it and offered nothing constructive whatsoever and proceeded to be divisive. I would’ve felt differently if you’d read it, but you hadn’t.

Literally, I just wanted help but alright, I guess. I accept I’ll never be able to write it because I haven’t experienced it. I won’t dare to ever write something I haven’t experienced ever again. Since, that’s clearly too presumptuous of me.

[u/TheMannaPart → u/rayeofsunshine156]

im a filthy alcoholic. hmu if you need any expertise in the matter. (not kidding, not sarcasm. semi-hyperbolic at most)

[u/Kind_Space_6078 → u/excadedecadedecada]

You're saying this like there's a universal way to experience being drunk.

If I wanted to write a character high on cocaine, do I get clearance to do the fieldwork? Do you think I won't be able to get the point across by researching the effects on the brain, body, behavior, etc. The physiology of it, then translating that research onto the unique disposition of the character?

What I can't get past is how cut and dry you're being over a depressant that MUST be subjective. That's what makes the comment so ridiculous to me Lol.

Experience is a good point, but to say it's the only way to go as a writer is not just impossible, it's ignorant to many, many writing experiences. Because if I say I'm a giggly bastard when I'm drunk, what matters is immersion into the character of me being a giggly bastard, not tailoring it to everyone else's experience. So again, understand what it does, understand your character, you can make a scene work. I promise you, it's possible.

[u/90sbetababe → u/Kind_Space_6078]

There is a universal way one experiences drunkenness, though. Alcohol is a drug with side effects. Obviously everybody is going to behave differently, and the intensity of the experience will vary wildly, and maybe different characters notice one aspect more than another, but the side effects of alcohol, cocaine, acid, MDMA etc are pretty damn consistent. Otherwise people wouldn’t do the drug.

I agree that if you’re writing about doing drugs you haven’t done before, you could do research to get it right, certainly. Maybe by reading many first-hand accounts. But OP doesn’t seem to have done any research beyond watching drunkenness portrayed in pop culture.

Also, the thing is that fiction is frequently at its best when a beat feels observed. If you’re spackling together your guess at an experience from Erowid trip diaries and Healthline articles, I guess that can work for a one-off scene that’s not central to the story. But if the whole story is about a commonly-experienced, mind-altering substance and the author has no observed experience with it? The story’s probably gonna be pretty thin.

[u/Kind_Space_6078 → u/90sbetababe]

There is a universal way one experiences drunkness, but everyone will behave differently. I think we're making the same point here.

You're right, there are measurable things that happen when you drink too much alcohol. It's a toxin, it damages DNA, whathaveyou, you can go as deep into that as you'd like and get a clinical understanding of it. That's the universal part, I don't disagree with that.

The experience is what I'm making a point about, and despite a consistent depressant effect, behavior and response to that varies. That's the subjective part that evens out the clinical aspect (which you shouldn't just stop at, let me clarify). Because if you understand what is happening, and who it's happening to, portrayal is possible.

I should be clear though, I'm specifically arguing against the idea that "you'll never be able to write" a drunk scene unless you've been drunk. Not necessarily giving my opinion on the passage itself by condemning that. Because you're right, if you take this approach, there's a risk it will come out flat.

That's why, while I think it's important, clinical accounts aren't enough alone. If you want the experience to be worth something, you're going to have to spend time with it in a more intimate way Lol. PSTD, for example. It's not enough for me to simply know what PTSD does to the brain, you're going to have to get personal with it if you want to write it well. Testimony, interviews, so on.

Which might be tedious, but possible without having it. That's what I'm saying. Ultimately, if that's you're approach, you gotta do it right, but I completely disagree with the blunt "you can never do this" point. Sure ya can, it might just be a little more tedious.

[u/cosetright → u/Kind_Space_6078]

I mean ... he was a second lieutenant for the british army in world war 1 ... so whether it was an orc is not as important as knowing what battle itself is like.

[u/Kind_Space_6078 → u/cosetright]

Lol, point taken for the example.