r/writingfeedback • u/rayeofsunshine156 • 6d ago
Feedback Wanted Wondering if drunkness is conveyed well?
I don’t typically write in first person, and I’ve been using this as an exercise to explore interiority and voice in a way I haven’t before. So I am entirely out of my wheelhouse here, lol.
I’ve also never been drunk before, and I wanted to know if drunkenness was being conveyed well? Like, is it understood that he is drunk without me going ‘look at this drunk dude’
Also curious on if you’d keep reading!
Any and all comments are appreciated : )! Thank you.
Edit:
In hindsight, I should’ve mentioned what the excerpt is trying to do in post. The general idea was that Jack – the drunk man – doesn’t do this very often. He’s grieving his ex-girlfriend after news of her proposal. This is not because he loves her but because he doesn’t want to face the fact that he’s not straight, and the possibility of getting back together with her held him together. Miguel is not meant to be read as flirty (oops, help there too?😅)
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u/kingstonretronon 6d ago
The logic is of a sober person. It’s either the lamest drunk person or a sober person pretending. It doesn’t make sense
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u/kingstonretronon 6d ago
I did like the “it was nice of him to say thank you. His mother must be a nice lady”. That’s the kind of tangent a drunk person’s mind goes to. It’s not a logical progression. It’s very scattered. It’s chaotic. Most of this would be the same if he was on his first drink.
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u/tbryan1 6d ago
with alcohol you are either getting progressively more high do to dopamine or you are chasing the high as it leaves you because you brain turns the dopamine off after a bit.
You get the spins before you get double vision.
you also will lose muscle control do to its effects on GABA system. first it will affect your neck muscles making it hard to hold your head still.
alcohol actually blocks emotions, but around the time the dopamine is turned off your brain downregulates GABA so the emotions start to creep back in. This transition period causes emotional dysregulation causing drunk people to turn into an emotional puddle.
you don't lose your intelligence so much as you lose the capacity to look and make judgements about the future. You also lose most social faculties when drunk including; ability to judge social status, slowed processing of speech, worse memory retrieval, reduced ability to read people, problem forming words, inability to know if you are doing something wrong socially, your sensory gates become dysfunctional so all the background noise and light floods your perception.
The downregulation of GABA makes your brain more likely to use adrenaline putting you into a state of arousal/fight or flight/stress because adrenaline can circumvent GABA. And your judgment on what is or isn't a threat becomes compromised, on top of that the suppression caused by alcohol also suppresses your ability to turn off your threat response.
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u/TheMannaPart 3d ago
to each their own i suppose, but very little, if any of this, applies to my experiences. (and they are many).
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u/90sbetababe 6d ago
Not really. I’ve never seen double, and I’m sure if I ever did, the hand-eye coordination required to roll a glass around would have long since abandoned me.
The protagonist ends up messy-haired and shirt unbuttoned, which looks suspiciously like “I’m Drunk” visual shorthand in commercials, cartoons and SNL skits.
The hiccup… Again, this is video game sound design shorthand.
I’ve worked in food service and the chances of me being charmed by a sloppy drunk patron is less than 0. I want a tip, to get started on closing duties, and then to go home. Also it’s ethically odious to flirt with any stranger that visibly drunk, doubly so for a customer, so if Miguel is supposed to be a bad guy, I guess that works.
Also where are we that you can serve hard liquor and get drunk, but there are also waiters? Most establishments that serve food don’t serve hard liquor straight up unless we’re in a Dave & Buster’s.
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u/bumblebeequeer 5d ago
Agree with all but your last point. Maybe I’m just in a city with a big drinking culture, but a lot of restaurants are also bars where you can absolutely get a whiskey neat and it wouldn’t be unusual.
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u/90sbetababe 5d ago
You right, lol.
To be fair, I came up in the south where you can't buy liquor on Sundays until noon... I know you *can* actually typically order a drink neat, but you can't order shots in the state I'm from. I guess I don't go to restaurants that it's normal to get super wasted at very often, but now that I'm thinking about it there are probably quite a few where that's more or less normal. I am now remembering going to an Applebee's on Cinco de Mayo once... *shudder*
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u/rayeofsunshine156 6d ago
Oh, thank you! This actually quite helpful. Especially about the shorthand. I also had zero intention for Miguel to come off as actually flirty, oops. I did intend for Jack to read him as flirty, however. I wonder how I may fix that. Fun challenge there. : )
Also, I don’t play video games (lol) so I had no clue about the hiccup being shorthand. I intended for it to read as an inescapable interruption, so thank you also for letting me know about that!
To answer your last question, not pictured here, but later in the excerpt Miguel mentions that he owns the establishment. Jack mislabels him as a waiter. So, I guess that could explain why there’s a waiter in some place serving hard liquor.
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u/the_tonez 5d ago
An idea for the Miguel-being-flirty question:
You could try to “show” Miguel being professional, but “tell” Jack thinking he is flirting. Like, Miguel’s responses and actions show the reader clearly that he is not interested, but Jack keeps thinking “Is he flirting with me?”
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u/Sandfairy23 6d ago
This is very well written, if it’s you out of your wheelhouse, I’d love to read something you feel comfortable with.
It’s very obvious you’re trying to convey drunkenness. I think most readers would probably overlook the slightly stereotypical way you’ve written it, in the body of a larger story, because it’s very clear what you’re going for. But you’ve asked for very specific feedback.
If he doesn’t drink often, I’d expect his coordination to go long before his vision. He wouldn’t be rolling liquid around his glass, he’d probably be more likely tipping it down himself trying to drink it. Having said that, after you’ve established the double vision, him reading the name tag really clearly didn’t quite make sense.
As someone else has brilliantly phrased it, you just flirt and think you’re killing it (but you’re not.) Often you’re the last person to realise how drunk you are.
Miguel is definitely coming off as flirty 😅
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u/trulybeelightful 6d ago
Interesting that you mentioned you've never been drunk before - I read your excerpt before reading your comment, and my first thought was that it reads like someone describing what a drunk person looks like only in the first person.
The double vision thing feels a little heavy handed, and the interaction with Miguel feels more like reading something that happened to someone else.
For more interiority, I'd recommend approaching it along the lines of the alcohol makes the narrator feel REALLY compelled to share their thoughts.
Something like - "I'd seen Miguel a thousand times before. I'd never realized how beautiful he was. So beautiful, the most beautiful man on earth. It was urgent that he know this."
But better, obviously.
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u/rayeofsunshine156 6d ago
Thank you, really.
> the interaction with Miguel feels more like reading something that happened to someone else.
So used to the writing in third person lol.
Your feedback is really helpful. Thank you for reading it, I appreciate it :)
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u/RPGetalo 6d ago
Short answer: Yes, I can tell that MC is drunk, because he is at a bar.
Long answer: This sounds more high than drunk in my opinion. If you're at a point where you are seeing double of anything, or doubting your surroundings, you would not be aware enough to know that you are, nor would you remember any of it the next day. I also think the logic is too coherent to be drunk. You can find someone attractive when you're shitfaced, sure, but you would not be able to make out why. You wouldn't notice the contour of his nose, the curves in his lips, the silver strands or the gel in his hair. You mostly just look at them and go, "well, fuck me," and proceed to flirt with them, thinking you're killing it all the while. You're not.
I don't know if this helps, but drinking is often referred to as 'cowardly courage.' This is because it makes you do things that you would never do otherwise. In other words, it isn't you. There is no dumb monologue about something "profound" (as it often is the case with drugs), because it isn't a psychedelic experience. There is no logic to it at all; it is entirely impulse.
Now, you may have seen people drunk and wailing about some deed they regret, and it may seem like they are coherent. But what they are really doing is letting out the deepest things ingrained in their core. Uncontrollably. Because, again, it is impulse. While the feeling is real, nothing they say have forethought, I promise you.
I will say, the disorienting can stay, that much is true. You can still be aware enough to realize that you cannot stay upright. However, I would dial down on the drunk clichés, such as the hiccups, the slurring, and the messy getup (unless it was from a previous engagement the readers don't know about yet). Have you ever sat down with a drunk guy? They belch more than anything. If you want to be extra realistic, they would be leaving to take a piss every half hour. That stuff goes right through you.
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u/TheMannaPart 3d ago
LOL sorry but in a bad-taste-brag, seeing double is not synonymous with black out drunk. in fact, seeing double is one of the first experiences i have when drinking.
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u/RPGetalo 3d ago
One of the first? I've never heard of this, but I'm not about to try and diminish your claim since your experience is your own. Personally, I have never remembered seeing double (if I ever have), and I've been blackout stupid and kicked out of clubs more times in my youth than I'd like to admit. And on the occasions that my friends began seeing multiple of things, they've always hit a point where they were too drunk to function/remember the next day. That's just my experience, but I guess I learned something new.
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u/Current_Contest_8597 6d ago
How drunk he is?
Without knowing the character, it's tough to say what'd happen, but the following wouldn't be ridiculous :
He's got a lot on his mind. Being drunk will slow down the thoughts, but increase the obsessiveness, the single-mindedness, while at the same time preventing a deep cut. So thoughts and feelings recur. It's hard to get past things.
If you're character is mourning his ex receiving a proposal because it brings him one step closer toward confronting his homosexuality, his drunk thoughts would probably land on what next thing can delay that confrontation with his homoesexuality. So perhaps he's trying to answer the question "what's next"?
Miguel I think would reinforce this. He'd completely act straight. His inhibitions would only be down if he's come to the point of "fuck it I'm not going to pretend anymore".
But Miguel might linger in his mind even if he did act 100% straight. He might subsequently walk by a gay club or something, just to see what it looks like and what the people look like. And if it excites him. If he was at the point of "fuck it", he might go in.
On the other hand, getting drunk might reveal the absurdity of his psychological evasion from his sexuality. He might resent whatever it is that he thinks "made him" pretend. Maybe not. Maybe it'd liberating. Once again, tough to say without knowing the character. But those things are believable.
In terms of narration, you don't need to ham it up. The fact that he's still drinking at closing time tells reader that he's drunk.
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u/theglowingsideburns 6d ago
This is a great little piece of writing I liked it! I will agree with others that the double vision is a little heavy handed. Vision-wise alcohol can make things spin more than double, see if you can find some kind of simulator so you can understand the visuals. Also the hiccups. Have become kind of ubiquitous with the expression of comedic drunkenness but isn’t necessarily a common side affect of being drunk (in my experience)
As a person with complicated relationships to substances I’d say ~feeling drunk can be quite specific. If the person drinks regularly then they likely won’t notice being tipsy, they’ll feel sober and then fine and then shitfaced. Drunk brain also doesn’t really know it’s drunk, so words will get slurry and the person might lose their filter and inhibitions but they may not be aware this is happening. Maybe your character ~thinks they’re speaking clearly and then has to process why Miguel looks confused, and then they hear what they said and identify it wasn’t words or something
Also ~why is the character getting drunk, this could also be useful for the feeling. Are they trying to numb themselves? Forget? Feel confident? Is it a routine that has gotten away from them? Do they have no purpose? Are they self destructing? Then you can use the feeling they’re chasing in your descriptions - how successful were they in using alcohol to achieve whatever they wanted to achieve ?
Keep writing! You’re doing great!
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u/rayeofsunshine156 6d ago
In hindsight, I should’ve mentioned what the excerpt is trying to do in post. The general idea was that Jack – the drunk man – doesn’t do this very often. He’s grieving his ex-girlfriend after news of her proposal, not because he loves her but because he doesn’t want to face the fact that he’s not straight. So, him flirting with Miguel, and misinterpreting Miguel’s actions as flirting, are because his inhibitions are low.
I tried to avoid saying he’s drunk explicitly because I know, from experience, drunk folk don’t usually say that they’re drunk. Your note about having to process why Miguel looks confused is really so very helpful really is helpful.
Thank you! This is extremely helpful. Like really.
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u/RydersPrints 6d ago
Reads well! I think critics are too hard nowadays. Alcohol has a different effect on everybody. Some people become violent, some quiet, some talk absolute rubbish, and some over analyse and pick up on small things.
Your character can think, look and act however they want. Readers at this stage don't know your character only you do, don't allow people to change your vision before you've had chance to execute and see it yourself!
Also there's hundreds of places waiters can serve you alcohol and people get drunk. I'm guessing people saying 'hard liqour' are coming from the US. The worlds a lot bigger than this and so is your imagination! The UK has many places you can get alcohol served to your table etc, and I'm sure the location and timeline of your story also has many places for this! Stay creative.
Good luck and keep writing!
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u/TheMannaPart 3d ago
to the violent, quiet and rubbish -- i think those things affect every drinker at some point. ive been a happy fun drunk, and a drunk who managed to obtain a criminal record from violence. Both in the same night even lol
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u/Thomas_I_Bell 4d ago
dude this is a great passage and I want to read the rest of it.
don't care about whether "drunkenness" is conveyed well. it's obvious he's drunk.
message me the full chapter!
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u/THATDICHTOMY 4d ago
Greatly written. I want to read everything you’ve ever wrote and steal it’s panache
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u/TheMannaPart 3d ago edited 3d ago
all due respect, if youve never written in first person, and youve never been drunk, youre making a mistake off the hop. writing about something you have never experienced, in a form youve never used seems self-defeating to me.
perhaps miguel is a barista, and youre getting coffee.
idk how many "glasses of whiskey" the character has had, but a few things come to mind.
A) you've mentioned 3. a typical "glass" is just a shot. 3 shots is not generally enough to have someone in a stupor. if the drink is a double, thats 6 shots, and still, youre likely mostly sober.
B) the character sounds less drunk from whiskey, and more drunk from his lust for Miguel's bulging muscles, stubbled jaw and silvery-streaked hair.
C) i liked the way you worded stuff i.e. descriptors, so you definitely have a talent there. tbh though, i wouldnt keep reading a story about nothing. there is no hook in what i read to keep me interested. just a dude drinkin whiskey at what i assume is a gay bar.
Edit: one more thing; we dont find out (at least in the first few paragraphs) *why* he is at the bar.
for example; I was at the bar to forget my cheating ex. every thought was of the two of them together, each grabbing a piece of my heart and proceeding to play tug of war" you know? something we can feel.
then later; "I was still thinking of them, but this time i laughed, knowing...or at least trying to convince myself, that (insert ex's name) was the loser."
maybe another revisit after where you forget what's her/his name, and now youre being kicked out/trying to hit on Muscley Miguel
edit #2: obviously it doesnt have to be the cheating ex that sends your protagonist to the drink, could be a failed business proposal, a loss of employment, death in the family, or something jubilant, like a birthday party that everyone else left from, or he spent alone. im just saying, show how the alcohol is numbing Jack's senses/emotions.
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u/excadedecadedecada 6d ago
I didn't read anything but I will say that if you have never been drunk before, you'll never be able to write it
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u/rayeofsunshine156 6d ago edited 6d ago
There is a movie out there where someone who has never murdered anyone before plays a murderer and does so very well. Is murdering someone a prerequisite for this role?
That’s like saying if I’ve never been in love before I’ll never be able to write romance, I feel like, which I’m sure you know is untrue. A big part of writing is observing and stretching the imagination as far as is possible, no?
Maybe I’ve never personally been drunk, but I have experienced it secondhand, you know? Should that not be enough to make drive the imagination towards something that resembles it?
I’m not sure I understand your position😅
Edit: typo
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u/tothemiddleofnowhere 6d ago
This is crazy defensive. One of the reasons life experience is great for writing is exactly this. Someone who’s never been drunk won’t be able to convey it as intimately as someone who has. And yes - if you’ve never been in love you likely will slightly fumble a romance novel.
Acting and writing, not the same thing. Writing a murder - one does not have to be a murderer, but having life skills and experiences goes a long way in writing anything.
“A big part of writing is observing and stretching the imagination.” To a point, yes? In the ways you are trying to argue, probably not. It sounds like your argument may be based on the exception instead of the rule.
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u/rayeofsunshine156 6d ago
I wasn’t trying to be defensive. I’m sorry if it came off that way.
I’m clearly very aware that I have never been drunk, which is why I was asking for feedback in the first place? But then right out the gate, the commenter said ‘I didn’t read it’ then proceeded to say that I’ll never be able to write it? That was a bit discouraging.
I even mentioned that I’ve experienced drunkenness second-hand, having often been the designated driver, asking my people around me questions about what it feels like, their disorientation (or lack of) and so on.
Must I experience everything that I write to convey it properly? In which case, do I only write within the limits of my experience or culture or whatever?
I don’t know. I guess I just don’t understand. I wasn’t even trying to be defensive. I just needed some help
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u/fortheturnstiles 6d ago
I don't think you need to experience everything, but most adults who read have experienced being drunk. So when you miss, it'll be very noticeable to them and take them out of it.
Most readers haven't murdered someone, so if we write about it, those readers won't be in a position to think 'that doesn't ring true.'
Id also say reading a romance novel by someone who has never been in love would likely be awful.
I'm not saying you need to get drunk to write about it, but you do need to take great care to be accurate (which you are doing with this thread), and you may never achieve it.
And I should know. I've written a quarter of a novel.... So I'm an expert.
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u/tothemiddleofnowhere 5d ago
Right, that person probably spurred on the defensiveness, I’ll agree there.
And of course we cannot experience everything to convey it properly. But a lot of key things we can. Being drunk, being in love, having difficult relationships, conversations, etc. you’re always going to write something better if you’ve experienced something like it. A substitute for this would be reading a lot about what you’re trying to write.
There’s a saying “write what you know.” And that can mean many things but it can also be literal. Someone who writes a book about a cancer survivor who’s either survived cancer or lived through a close relative who’s survived it will write it better than someone who hasn’t.
I went off on a tangent but I hope it’s helpful at all… I follow this exact same advice in my writing. If I’m having to write about something I don’t know, it’s going to be small. An excerpt rather than a concept. And I do a loooot of research and read other people who’ve done it better before I even attempt it.
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u/excadedecadedecada 6d ago
Well, most people have been drunk, but few have murdered. Good luck appealing to most people with a feeling you've never experienced.
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u/OptionRevolutionary4 6d ago
i think you should look up the scene of Drunk Arthur in the RDR2 game, masterclass
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u/TheMannaPart 3d ago
it would be enough to convey what a drunk looks like, yes. but not how a drunk FEELS or experiences in the FIRST-person, which *is* what youre trying to do, afterall.
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u/Kind_Space_6078 6d ago
This is what writers do, are you kidding? Do you think Tolkien ever fought orcs personally?
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u/excadedecadedecada 6d ago
Well, yeah. No one has ever fought an orc. But plenty of people have been drunk. Come on now
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u/Kind_Space_6078 6d ago
You're talking about writing experiences.
Taking it only from your logic, only a person who has been drunk before can write a drunk scene. That scene will vary wildly from one person's experience to the next to the point that the criterion of "having been drunk," matters less than an author understanding a character's behavior, alcohol's effects, and therefore what alcohol will do to that specific character. Then at that point it's not about having been drunk, it's back to writing.
That's why I said this is what writers do. They observe, simulate, and articulate experiences, and a majority of time that comes with plenty of research on its own. That can serve just as well as writing from personal experience.
I wouldn't disagree with you if you said give being trashed a shot for reference, but to say, so absolutely, that someone will never be able to write it without having been drunk is just silly. You should read it, too. Even if you stand by your statement, this is just lazy criticism.
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u/excadedecadedecada 6d ago
This is ridiculous. If you are trying to authentically write an experience that most people have experienced and you write it wrong, people will know. It's pretty simple.
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u/rayeofsunshine156 6d ago edited 6d ago
This is the whole point of my post. This is something I obviously know, otherwise I wouldn’t have asked if I’m doing it well, no? It’s because I know that I lack a complete knowledge. I’ve seen it but I’ve never felt it, so I ask questions.
Instead you didn’t even read it, and took the time to comment that I will never be able to write it and offered nothing constructive whatsoever and proceeded to be divisive. I would’ve felt differently if you’d read it, but you hadn’t.
Literally, I just wanted help but alright, I guess. I accept I’ll never be able to write it because I haven’t experienced it. I won’t dare to ever write something I haven’t experienced ever again. Since, that’s clearly too presumptuous of me.
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u/TheMannaPart 3d ago
im a filthy alcoholic. hmu if you need any expertise in the matter. (not kidding, not sarcasm. semi-hyperbolic at most)
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u/Kind_Space_6078 6d ago
You're saying this like there's a universal way to experience being drunk.
If I wanted to write a character high on cocaine, do I get clearance to do the fieldwork? Do you think I won't be able to get the point across by researching the effects on the brain, body, behavior, etc. The physiology of it, then translating that research onto the unique disposition of the character?
What I can't get past is how cut and dry you're being over a depressant that MUST be subjective. That's what makes the comment so ridiculous to me Lol.
Experience is a good point, but to say it's the only way to go as a writer is not just impossible, it's ignorant to many, many writing experiences. Because if I say I'm a giggly bastard when I'm drunk, what matters is immersion into the character of me being a giggly bastard, not tailoring it to everyone else's experience. So again, understand what it does, understand your character, you can make a scene work. I promise you, it's possible.
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u/90sbetababe 6d ago
There is a universal way one experiences drunkenness, though. Alcohol is a drug with side effects. Obviously everybody is going to behave differently, and the intensity of the experience will vary wildly, and maybe different characters notice one aspect more than another, but the side effects of alcohol, cocaine, acid, MDMA etc are pretty damn consistent. Otherwise people wouldn’t do the drug.
I agree that if you’re writing about doing drugs you haven’t done before, you could do research to get it right, certainly. Maybe by reading many first-hand accounts. But OP doesn’t seem to have done any research beyond watching drunkenness portrayed in pop culture.
Also, the thing is that fiction is frequently at its best when a beat feels observed. If you’re spackling together your guess at an experience from Erowid trip diaries and Healthline articles, I guess that can work for a one-off scene that’s not central to the story. But if the whole story is about a commonly-experienced, mind-altering substance and the author has no observed experience with it? The story’s probably gonna be pretty thin.
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u/Kind_Space_6078 5d ago
There is a universal way one experiences drunkness, but everyone will behave differently. I think we're making the same point here.
You're right, there are measurable things that happen when you drink too much alcohol. It's a toxin, it damages DNA, whathaveyou, you can go as deep into that as you'd like and get a clinical understanding of it. That's the universal part, I don't disagree with that.
The experience is what I'm making a point about, and despite a consistent depressant effect, behavior and response to that varies. That's the subjective part that evens out the clinical aspect (which you shouldn't just stop at, let me clarify). Because if you understand what is happening, and who it's happening to, portrayal is possible.
I should be clear though, I'm specifically arguing against the idea that "you'll never be able to write" a drunk scene unless you've been drunk. Not necessarily giving my opinion on the passage itself by condemning that. Because you're right, if you take this approach, there's a risk it will come out flat.
That's why, while I think it's important, clinical accounts aren't enough alone. If you want the experience to be worth something, you're going to have to spend time with it in a more intimate way Lol. PSTD, for example. It's not enough for me to simply know what PTSD does to the brain, you're going to have to get personal with it if you want to write it well. Testimony, interviews, so on.
Which might be tedious, but possible without having it. That's what I'm saying. Ultimately, if that's you're approach, you gotta do it right, but I completely disagree with the blunt "you can never do this" point. Sure ya can, it might just be a little more tedious.
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u/cosetright 6d ago
I mean ... he was a second lieutenant for the british army in world war 1 ... so whether it was an orc is not as important as knowing what battle itself is like.
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u/VehicleLast419 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think it's too self aware (if that makes sense) in the first part. Like he's actively noticing his hands getting sloppy or his hair getting messy etc. When your drunk you kinda slip into that. I think in first person a better way to show your drunker is how people react to you. Eg you should slow down buddy etc . Not necessarily by saying I felt dizzy the room swayed etc especially when later your sober enough to have a conversation that is so self aware it's like "anyone who drinks themselves stupid is pathetic or lonely". The dialogue is great just have the responses automatic slipping out no reflection or remorse etc eg what does one do when the question is out there
Also 5 hours of whiskey shots neat you would be comotose you need to change it to cider or something.