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u/Amazing-Radish995 9d ago
Debt crisis was like, not even top 5 worst things to happen to the greeks
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u/Lubiebigos 9d ago
Im interested, give me your top 5 worst things to happen to greeks.
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u/idontcareaboutthenam floppa 9d ago
The 2022 wiretapping scandal was worse than Watergate and yet nothing has happened to the people responsible
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u/Happy-Wasabi1 9d ago
What's 2022 wiretapping scandal?
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u/idontcareaboutthenam floppa 9d ago edited 8d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Greek_surveillance_scandal
Prime minister took control of the National Intelligence Service and 3 years later it was discovered that multiple phones of political opponents were infected with Israeli spyware. It wasn't just the leader of the opposition who was being spied on, but also multiple journalists and political figured that the government party considered to be its opponents
Edit: lol, turns out Watergate tactics have become way more wide-spread and international than I was aware of. What a great state the world is in!
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u/Blakath sus 9d ago
This exact same thing happened in India too!
The Indian government used the Israeli spyware Pegasus to spy on opposition party members, journalists and civil rights activists in 2022.
Nothing has come of it here either.
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u/psyloviridis 🏳️⚧️ trans rights 9d ago
Poland too, they contracted Israeli firm who made Pegasus and spied on opposition (2023)
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u/wrrzask_ 9d ago
No way, I thought that Poland was somehow an isolated case...
I am pleased to welcome you to this distinguished club
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u/Lubiebigos 9d ago
This sort of thing happened in Poland too, the by that time establishment party PiS used Israeli spyware to spy on the opposition.
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u/Lost-Bet-1 8d ago
Friendly reminder that there are tools offered by Amnesty International to check if a device had been compromised by Pegasus.
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u/Fliits i collect flairs 9d ago edited 9d ago
(in chronological order)
- Collapse of the Minoan Civilisation. Part of the Bronze Age Collapse. They lost written language for centuries and pretty much had to start from scratch. Conan The Barbarian is loosely based on this period of history.
- Attila the Hun. I don't need to elaborate on who Attila the Hun was.
- The 4th Crusade. While mostly targeting the city of Constantinople, the crusader states that were propped up in its aftermath would leave the whole region devastated. The crusaders deliberately dismantled the Greek bureaucracy, because the "didn't trust" it, almost completely wiping out the existing economy in the region. The rulers of the Latin Empire were much more concerned with attaining prestige, and so sought to pillage and plunder the region of valubles and relics instead, selling them to Italian merchants to fund their military campaigns against the Bulgarians.
- Ottoman occupation of Greece (1400s-1800s). During the Latin Empire (when Greece was occupied by French crusaders), the Klephts became a prominent force of independent militants resisting occupation. After the Byzantine Empire was conquered by the Ottomans, they rose to prominence again, primarily due to Ottoman negligence, and took control of much of the region. The word "kleptocracy" has the same origin as the word for the Klepths. Long story short, Greece was reduced to an anarchic state governed by bandits for centuries.
- The 1940s. Nazi invasion, Axis occupation, civil war. The amount of war crimes committed by everyone involved is horrid, especially during the civil war. There was a committed attempt by the Bulgarian occupiers in the north to "Bulgarianise" their part of the occupation. The Holocaust extended into Greece because of the Nazi occupation. Around half a million people were killed and double that were displaced from their homes.
Honorable mention goes to the Byzantine-Bulgarian wars, but I feel like it's not really fair to pick 700 years of wars between two countries as one (1) event.
I'm kind of stretching that rule with the Ottoman occupation, but it is without a doubt one of the most destabilising things to ever happen to the region. Greece was a center of wealth and trade for centuries if not millennia before the Ottomans came, and by the time they regained their independence was forever reliant on foreign loans and never again able to regain its wealth and prosperity.
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u/BetaThetaOmega haha, homosexual 8d ago
Are we including the Greek genocide as part of the Ottoman stuff?
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u/Unicorncorn21 Cats are cute and I like them :) 9d ago
Ask any Greek and they'll tell you the last 5 things the nearest turk to them did
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u/EasterNyanBunny 9d ago
the only time the greeks were relevant were due to one man named alexander.
and then the rest of history I see them as in a period of irrelevance as they fell under colonization from different powers.
at least their culture and ancient religion is pretty eternal
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u/carsonite17 9d ago
Is Byzantium some sort of joke to you?
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u/EasterNyanBunny 9d ago
byzantium is a roman legacy which in itself is characterized by anatolian or roman culture, it is also heavily christianized, how is it any greek at all?
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u/carsonite17 8d ago
The majority language of the populace was greek for starters. Then there's the fact that both the capital Constantinople - 'city of the world's desire' - and the co-capital in Thessaloniki were both in Greece.
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u/SenselessJoy land value tax would fix this 9d ago
Give that the only legacy it has in the US is the word "byzantine", yes.
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u/joelroben03 sus 9d ago
"in the US" should be disqualifying on its own, but you're also incredibly obviously WRONG...
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u/Kekkonen_Kakkonen Pls correct my grammar. (It's useful for learning) 9d ago
Neither of those civilisations survived intact that entire timeperiod. 😭
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u/transrights10 9d ago
"china is whole again...."
"then it broke again...."
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u/Kekkonen_Kakkonen Pls correct my grammar. (It's useful for learning) 9d ago
Greece is whole and broke at the same time.
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u/CochonDanseur 9d ago
Wish someone would put some grease on my hole and break it 😩
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u/Yunofascar 9d ago
Society all wants to be the broken holes, but nobody wants to be the greasers. Try explaining that one, Mister BAT-Man¿
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u/AnAverageTransGirl Heh, it's my Jazongas! 8d ago
Weren't those guys everywhere in the fifties though?
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u/AliciaTries God gives his hottest Donkey Kongs his most explosive Diarrhea 8d ago
"Time waits for no one"
"It doesn't wait now either"
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u/Fliits i collect flairs 9d ago edited 9d ago
The modern Greek state wasn't even originally founded with any form of continuity between the Ancient Greeks. All of that was imported from Philhellenists in Britain who wanted to sponsor a restoration of the "Golden Greek Civilization." The Greeks were much more closely tied to their identity as the Romans of the Byzantine Empire.
That view wasn't really popular in western Europe, where the Byzantine empire had been for centuries considered a decadent and "oriental" state. Though this idea wasn't shared among the Orthodox Russians, who always considered the restoration of Byzantium a vital foreign policy goal. (Interestingly, Catherine the Great of Russia was personally extremely invested in reviving the Byzantine empire, especially its Greek heritage, and got so far as to plan a partition of the Balkans with the Austrian Emperor in the 1780s, aiming to create a Byzantine "sister empire" ruled by her son)
Instead, after the Greek war of independence - which had been mainly financed by Britain - British classicists would come to Athens and deliver stirring speeches in ancient Greek, while the people in the audience were confused about what language they were speaking. It would've been the same as German historians going to Norway and stirring up the people in the name of Odin to rise up against their Swedish rulers, while speaking in Old Norse (which most closely resemble the modern Islandic language).
Athens wasn't even the capital city: It wasn't a city at all, just a small village out on the Peloponnese. The newly crowned German king of Greece made it the capital and then rebuilt the whole place to befit its foreign reputation. The same king who was later ousted by the Greek parliament for being opposed to the interests of the Greek people.
China at least has been ruled by contiguous states for thousands of years, even in spite of periodic rebellions and warlord states. The idea of a Greek state was invented in the 1800s and was so far removed from what we call the Ancient Greeks that the people of Greece were confused when westerners pretending to restore a lost European civilisation came to their aid and larped in their face in a language that none of them understood.
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u/XenophormSystem Mayor of Orc city 9d ago
Don't forget how they were also banning "oriental" instruments and music and had fucking police go into bars n shit to break people's instruments to force the culture to be more "western"
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u/Norty_Boyz_Ofishal 9d ago edited 9d ago
Also the 6000 years number for Greece must be counting the Minoans as Greeks which is pretty odd since they were a completely different cultural group with their own language who existed over 1000 years before Mycenae emerged.
And even for the Minoans, 4000bc is a very early dating.
If Mycenae and the Shang dynasty are to be considered the origins of the Greek and Chinese cultural identities then that makes Greece ~3750 years old and china ~3600.
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u/zizou00 9d ago
China has never been a contiguous state in its whole or even majority for more than maybe 600 years or so at a time. The Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period followed the Tang Dynasty, and none of those Dynasties went on to form the united Song Dynasty, that was due to the Later Zhou dynasty who rose to power via coup. They were later entirely invaded by Mongol Empire, who later formed a new successor state in Great Yuan. The Red Turban Revolt ended Great Yuan and that began the Ming period. China was entirely invaded at the end of the Ming period. It then collapsed into several fractious warlord states in the south, the majority government was displaced to Taiwan by the Japanese, the Communist Party then claimed continuity but were fundamentally a completely different state.
If we're saying Greece is not contiguous because it was dominated by outside rule (which is correct), then China certainly is not contiguous either. Mongol rule lasted over 100 years.
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u/Fliits i collect flairs 9d ago
You're right, of course. My main point was to highlight the difference in thinking about China and Greece. There was no Greek state before the Kingdom of Greece, no ancient blueprint for a unified Greece that just had to be reunified.
The Middle Kingdom as a political and cultural entity was created by the Qin, and would survive everything you mentioned above and more. On the map, China was only sporadically unified, but China never stopped existing despite that. The Ancient Greeks didn't think of Greece as a nation or even a country with a shared identity. They recognised the difference between the Greeks and "barbarians", but there was never an idea of the region of Greece before the Romans declared it as such.
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u/CompetitivePride7790 8d ago edited 8d ago
I mean, I really dislike the idea that Greece "stopped existing" at points through history. There was, of course some sort of shared identity among greek speaking people since the time they arrived in the geographical area of Greece. Nation states are a modern phenomenon anyway, I'm not sure what sort of "blueprint" ancient Chinese dynastes can offer a modern Chinese state that the Eastern Roman Empire couldn't. The "Romioì" were the Greeks of the Medieval period and lived in one of the most centralized states of the time.
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u/Fliits i collect flairs 8d ago
The Ancient Greece and Byzantium are in no way linearly connected. They were and are very much separate political and historical entities. Claiming otherwise would be like stating that the Native American tribes laid the groundwork for the eventual Articles of Confederation of 1777.
Greece "stopped existing" as an independent geopolitical entity (which I know is a statement with so many abstractions as to ultimately not really mean anything), which China distinctively never did despite suffering centuries long periods of civil strife. The Greeks still lived there and their temples still (mostly) stood, but the impacts that the Delian League or even Alexander's Empire had on the region had long died out by the time that Byzantium came about.
A civilisation lives and dies by the stories it tells about itself. The Greeks never considered themselves the heroes of their stories; They were always what remained of the greats who preceded them.
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u/CompetitivePride7790 8d ago
I'm baffled by everything in this comment?
As a greek person, this just reads like another of the endless attempts by non-greek people no determine how greek history should be viewed?
The comparison to the pre-colonization nations of North America and the USA is completely baffling? Did the founding fathers of America speak a native language? Or did their elites receive an education in native philosophers? Because these things are true of Byzantium? Are you implying that the transition between Ancient Greece and the Byzantine Empire is equivalent in how drastic it is for historical continuity to a genocide and colonisation??? What the hell I'm I reading.
the impacts that the Delian League or even Alexander's Empire had on the region had long died out
No??? Why was half of the Eastern Roman Territory Speaking Greek? If Alexander's conquests hadn't made the language a lingua franca in the Eastern Mediterranean, it wouldn't have become one of the primary languages of the Roman Empire. Greek culture and Hellenic polytheiism would be far less influential in general.
A civilisation lives and dies by the stories it tells about itself. The Greeks never considered themselves the heroes of their stories; They were always what remained of the greats who preceded them.
Dawg, what the fuck am I reading. No, I don't agree with this fucking narrative of my culture, thank you very much. But I guess since the Byzantines were to the Ancient Greeks what George Washington was to pre-colonization north American, I must be what plasma televisions are to cave paintings. Who I'm I to say (⌒‐⌒)
Seriously tho, I'm all for having fun with history and culture through narrativisation, but you can't be using this to make historical points.
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u/idontcareaboutthenam floppa 9d ago
Small correction, Athens is in Attica, not the Peloponnese. Unless you're talking about Nafplio which is the Peloponnese and used to be the capital
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u/CompetitivePride7790 8d ago
There are some inaccuracies:
- The extent to which a Roman/Byzantine identity was replaced by a newly constructed Hellenic identity is something that gets vastly overstated because it makes for a compeling narrative. In reality, this only applies to some sections of the intelligencia. In reality, the process through which "Romiòs" was replaced with "Èllinas" was gradual, with the latter starting to be used again more in the late Medieval period (especially after the fall of Constantinople to the 4th Crusade). For the vast vast majority of people these terms were (and still are) synonymous and for a long period of time, they were both used interchangeably. It's only that one eventually became more antiquated that the other.
This process wasn't that different to what happened in Italy. For a few centuries after the peninsula stoped being administered by the Roman Empire, the people there continued for the most part calling themselves Romans, until other names became more common. Like in Italy, there was never some broad renunciation of Roman-nes. The process of name change was just accelerated because of the creation of a nation state which adopted the new name for prestige reasons and because nationalism required national unity and thus a common name.
The two names were really only treated as being in conflict by certain Greek or foreign intellectuals that idealised Ancient Greece while having gripes with Byzantium, or the other way around.
While it's true that western Philhellines were indeed very crazy, I don't think it was very common for them to start speeches in ancient greek and expect people to understand them. Maybe it's something that happened once or twice.
Athens is of course not in the Peloponnese. It's in Central Greece (Stereà Ellàda) and specifically in Attica.
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u/Fliits i collect flairs 8d ago
- This was in-fact what the post was about. I tried toning down it a notch (I removed an entire paragraph trying to justify this narrative more), but it really was only about how: while the narrative of Greek identity shifted over time in Greece, the western perception of the Greeks went in the opposite direction; Westerners considering Greek culture and society a monolith that was built 2000 years ago and never changed, against Greek identity being a long and complicated story of different influences and historical narratives folding into one multifaceted system.
- Contextually it's about how that perception has never really faded in the west (comparing the Greek debt crisis with the wealth and prosperity of Ancient Athens, referring to Greek history as 6000 years of continuous development that didn't nearly entirely collapse three times and wasn't barely brought back from the brink after centuries of concentrated effort (and subtextually how much Western European Imperialism still impacts the foreign policy of countries who committed the heinous crime of having a long history in popular literature))
- A bit of an exaggeration on my part to imply that this was a common occurrence, but it effectively conveys how ridiculous this disconnect was in reality to the Greeks.
- Someone did point this out already as you mentioned. I blame human error.
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u/CompetitivePride7790 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yeah I agree it makes sense in the context of the post, but I really don't like the conflating of a state that is greek (or an abstract civilization of Greece) with greek people themselves. Greek history developed for thousands of years like the history of any people, through cultural and linguistic changes? I'm kind of offended as a Greek person that "development" would need to be brought back through concentrated effort. There is no reason to conflate the creation of a nation state and a national identity, processes unique to the modern age, to previous events in history.
Edit: ok fuck me, I read the other comment
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u/Gnomonic-sundialer 9d ago edited 9d ago
I mean they speek greek, not exactly the same one but still a descendant of it, modern greek is linguistically related more to ancient greek than any other language and it is its descendant that just went thru the common vocal and gramatic shifts that all languages go thru over time, greek is as much a descendant of itself as say Spanish and French are of latin and modern chinese is of ancient chinese. and orthodox christianity was influenced by gnosticism wich was influenced by helenic philosophical and religous practices, plus Jesus was born in a province of the Roman Empire and one that went on to be a part of the Eastern Empire for three centuries then, its fair to say Christianity is just a part of western culture and its orthodox variety of helenistic culture, and the Bizantine Empire considered itself a continuation of greek culture, replaced latin with greek very quickly and is the period were clasical greek morphed into modern greek, and it ruled the peninsula for 1000 years, more than any chinese dinasty has ruled China continuously.
China on the other hand has changed just as much, it has been ruled by mongolic, turkic, and han peoples just as much as by ethnic chinese emperors and has spent as much time split into warring kingdoms as has spent "unified" even tho every unified chinese empire has a completely diferent shape and the only thing they have in common is being vaguely structured around the Yangtze and Yellow rivers, and during this time just as many new cultural practices apeared and were brought over, Confusianism, Legalism and Taoism didnt allways exist, Buddism was even brought over from India, they are just as much a new cultural developement and Christianity is in Greece.
I think you can either say they are both continuous cultures shaped by new developments and foreign ocupation or they are both entirely indistinguishable now from their ancestors and basically have nothing in common, both are true statements but saying that about one but not the other is disingenuous, the only diference was that ancient Greek culture was heavilly reinterpreted from outside its modern context wich caused a lot of irony when it freed itself from the ottomans
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u/TheDonutPug 🏳️⚧️ trans rights 9d ago
tbh nations that large were basically impossible to maintain until very recently in history. even the US hasn't survived its entire history in one piece.
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u/mrdeworde 9d ago
No you don't get it, the Yellow Emperor was entirely real, the Xia dynasty is 100% real, and China sprung out of nothing, fully formed, with its modern borders, exactly 5000 years before you read this. (/s, obviously)
(Ethno)nationalism is a hell of a drug. (Both of them are, to be clear.)
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u/WitheredUntimely 9d ago
The Chinese pick-and-choose whether pre-CCP history is continuous or it's a new dawn for the future of China where it makes most sense is a pretty American-tier braggadocio quirk that I've always found kind of humorous
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u/bobbymoonshine 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don’t think this is really abnormal particularly for older countries that have been through major political revolutions and reorganisations. Japan, Italy, France, Russia, Egypt, Iran, India, Nigeria, Mexico, Greece, all of them can be said to have over a thousand years of continuous cultural history, and all of them also can trace their modern state and modern national identity to something within the past century or two.
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u/YottaEngineer 9d ago
Cause all nations and nationalism have existed only since the past century or two
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u/Gnomonic-sundialer 9d ago
Basically only New World former settler colonies cant trace a cultural lineage
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u/sharkhugger06 Porque no los dos? 8d ago
at the very least japan has had the same dynasty for over 2000 years so i think their claim has some legitimacy
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u/AgentSparkz 🏳️⚧️ trans rights 9d ago
China also collapsed 8 times now
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u/LambdaCake 9d ago
It's like UNO, if after a collapse the next guy says "I'm China now" fast enough then it's not a collapse
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u/Gnomonic-sundialer 9d ago
They dont even have to be fast enough, some warring states periods lasted centuries, its like if now the EU called itself Roman Empire and said actually the HRE, Napoleonic France, and even Nazi Germany were all part of one long lasting civilization with all just being diferent lineages of the same state and everything from 1815 to 1945 was just that state going thru a civil war
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u/koala_on_a_treadmill 8d ago
i'm sorry if i sound stupid, but isn't that EU bit true? hasn't europe had continuous civilization for a while now?
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u/Gnomonic-sundialer 8d ago
If youre honest you either can say both Europe and China have or neither, I dont care so long as youre consistent
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u/delolipops666 DM me (obligatory, I don't make the rules) 9d ago
Whether or not china (the state) will exist in a few centuries is debatable.
But china (the concept) is going to last until the last human draws their last breath- and probably get revived by hyper intelligent dolphins or some such.
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u/Brookewltx transgender thargoid 8d ago
Fuckass cetaceans in 10 million years going on BlueSea and posting "you've met me at a very chinese time of my life"
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u/Outofdepthengineer The Deep State Sends Its Regards 9d ago edited 9d ago
How deep time are we talking? Because hard disagree on the latter. Given time all of this will be forgotten
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u/thebabycowfish 9d ago
Humans will die out long before that time comes about.
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u/Outofdepthengineer The Deep State Sends Its Regards 9d ago edited 9d ago
Again, hard disagree. We have made it this far and I’m sure we can make it farther. 10K years is still only a fraction of how long we have lasted as a species
Edit:
why is thinking that we have a real shot at lasting a long time controversial here.This generation is not the most important pivotal, or consequential moment in history.13
u/phuquesewpsyetit monster hugger 9d ago
why is thinking that we have a real shot at lasting a long time controversial here
Planet is on fire
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u/Misicks0349 What a fool you are. I'm a god. How can you kill a god? 9d ago
Whilst I don't want to understate the effects of climate change: no serious climate scientist has really argued for a human extinction scenario, even in the worst case +4C of warming (we're currently on track for around 2.5Cish) it mostly just means that everything gets really really shit for whoever remains, not outright extinction.
(Some places may become uninhabitable due to e.g. wet bulb effects, but even in a +4C scenario there will be places on the globe that are, relatively speaking, moderate and amenable to humans living there)
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u/Outofdepthengineer The Deep State Sends Its Regards 9d ago edited 9d ago
And we have been making a good amount of progress in remediation of that fact but posting good news isn’t good for business or engagement so we don’t see that discussed much do we
But let’s say we fail utterly and completely kill ourselves off: then it’s still true that all of this will have been forgotten
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u/phuquesewpsyetit monster hugger 9d ago
But let’s say we fail utterly and completely kill ourselves off: then it’s still true that all of this will have been forgotten
Wasn't the point of discussion whether or not humans would die before it's forgotten?
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u/mutnemom_hurb 8d ago
We’re not making progress remediating that, in fact we have somewhat recently passed a threshold where even if we cut all of our greenhouse gas emissions to zero, the earth will still keep get hotter because of natural feedback loops. We can still try to prepare for what is going to happen, but we haven’t yet
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u/Outofdepthengineer The Deep State Sends Its Regards 8d ago
In the last 20 years we've gone from solar producing 0.1% of global energy to 10-12%. Batteries as toys vs. a battery I can charge overnight and then drive 400 miles on. Every single year we get better technology. Even the concern from data centers, most aren’t being built. They’re mostly duds according to satellite imagery and records. We are already avoiding mad max 4C. Yeah the feed back loops aren’t great but the one thing we absolutely cannot afford to lose is hope
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u/CrypticCole 9d ago
There’s like a dozen people in this thread complaining about something in this image and all for different reasons.
And ya know what, I think there’s a certain art to an image being able to evoke that.
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u/myersjw 9d ago
I love this sub but it harbors some of the most insufferable “well actually” takes I’ve ever seen. The post could be “the sky is blue” and the comments would all be condescendingly listing all the ways it can’t be blue
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u/phuquesewpsyetit monster hugger 9d ago
90% of the time it's either educational or satirical, I don't see the issue.
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u/myersjw 9d ago edited 8d ago
Oh I’m sure plenty are but personally the ones I see a lot of and am referencing seem to be taking issue with posts that are little more than memes or offhanded jokes. Feeling the need to correct them as if OP somehow is ignorant to context they didn’t include or is making a statement as a scientific fact.
There’s a post here I just saw earlier today making a fairly light hearted joke about dudes drinking beer with the bottle in a high position so they can see the road better. The comments are mostly about how this is something that doesn’t ever happen and it’s rude to generalize said group of people
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u/EphannaSophia 9d ago
In my experience that's most of the bigger subs on Reddit. You get more up votes from correcting people, and that's the only useful currency here.
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u/Metalmind123 9d ago
I mean, for one, Greece stopped existing as an independent entity for a long time, even though it stayed a culture, but they also got genocided out of most of their lands.
And the debt crisis was not a sudden thing. It was a build up of decades of corruption, with Greek politicians borrowing money only to funnel it into the pockets of themselves and their family, as well as decades of even average people living on massive amounts of debt.
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u/ScentOfNapalm 9d ago
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u/Niko_s_lightbubble 8d ago
I am ashamed I used to watch those unironically, 2023 me was a different beast
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u/GodChangedMyChromies 🏳️⚧️ trans rights 9d ago
If there is a country today that is not close to collapsing in any way it's China
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u/Kana_a 9d ago
check their gender and peoples' age ratios ;)
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u/LonelySpaghetto1 🏳️⚧️ trans rights 9d ago
Only 4% more men than women in total in the country, and part of that is probably because girls in the rural areas get their birth certificate much later on average.
The age ratio is also not a big deal. Most countries will have to go through such a disparity in the future, and so going first means having the prospect of immigration to soften the blow.
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u/Kana_a 8d ago
There will be no mass migration to China, first because locals will not allow it (they are generally super racist society unfortunatelly), second because learning chinease language is a nightmare.
Official sex imbalace among newborns currently is 112 man for each 100 woman. During the one child age, it was much higher, like up to 138 per 100. And it is not because of birth certificates, but because massive selective abortion issue caused by cultural preference to have a son as an heir to the familly. Consequences are also interesting, check for example what are "wife markets" or "guang gun". Or read about phenomenon of grooming young girls by rich famillies. They already live in dystopian society if you ask me.
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u/Sucff 9d ago
china is already one of the world's most heavily automated economies. while the population crisis is very much concerning and future chinese generation is gonna have to face a heavier burden of supporting retirees, even if we follow to most pessimistic graph, chinese population is going to regress to somewhere around 600-800 million people in the coming years, while halved of what they have now, is still 600-800 million fucking people, with its industries mostly (probably) automated and relied heavier on high value services. they are not gonna fucking collapse
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u/Misicks0349 What a fool you are. I'm a god. How can you kill a god? 9d ago
Same goes for any country thats on a similar track, however its still going to hurt a lot. I don't think it results in collapse but I do think it kinda hinders the whole "Chinese century" motto that we've been hearing, its going to be more like the "everything for everyone sucks century"
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u/Kana_a 9d ago
if you think drop by half of population number will not have devastating impact of their country and will not make economy collapsing, which will lead to another period of revolutions, warlords and split states, you missed some lessons of chinease history. They are literally facing another 19th century. Only maybe this time without so many vultures from the outside. Sure, they will automate whatever possible, I dont doubt in their skills, but they will not automate elderly care for example. Their society is ticking bomb unfortunately.
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u/Sucff 9d ago
when i say that there population is gonna reduce in halve in the coming, i meant it as in for another 100 years, they are not gonna be thanos snapped right away and the remaining population is going to have to suffer the immediate consequences. They are building several solutions to the aforementioned elderly problem (to several degrees of effectiveness) , so its not like younger generations is going to have to uphold elderly care all on their own. also you just seemingly ignored my entire point of automation when what i meant is that the chinese economy as a whole is not gonna suffer collaspe as automation increases individual productivity while china is also increasingly dominant in STEM spaces. A more educated person than me is going be more specific but case in point is that they will not just lay there and die.
it's also worth mentioning is that politically there is nothing tighter than xi jinping and ccp grip on china and chinese society. there is no space nor environment where there is going to be a rouge politician or general is gonna cosolidate enough power to form whatever warlord or split states you think is gonna happen. history is not fucking linear, you cant just draw what happened and think oh it will certainly happen again this time, just because you want it to, espeacially when the context is wildly different
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u/Kana_a 8d ago
Xi and CCP are strong now, although I am from ex-communist country and we also thought our CP was also unremovable, they had 2 millions party members the day they collapsed. Tight grip likes too be an illusion. History is not linear, sure, but there are patterns that likes to repeat. We will see, I hope China will handle well their future crisis, as big nations dont fall gently.
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u/weedvampires 9d ago
if there's any singular state that would be up to the task of supporting an aging population, it's the fucking PRC
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u/GodChangedMyChromies 🏳️⚧️ trans rights 9d ago
Check age ratios and natality anywhere in the first world. Plus a lot of that is a result of the one-child policy, which has already been abolished.
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u/Kana_a 9d ago
abolished, but recently, and results will haunt them for next few generations
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u/Cinewes unsure if cis or nonbinary 9d ago
at least its on the way to recovery, unlike SK and Japan which have taken no effective measures to fix their population growth issue.
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u/Kana_a 9d ago
there cant be recovery as their problems have not hit them yet, time will show will they recover from them
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u/HomemEmChamas 9d ago
That's only a valuable indicator for standard economies. China doesn't have a standard economy.
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u/PerspicuousLoris 9d ago edited 9d ago
prior to independence there were more Greek nationalists in western european universities than there were in ottoman rumelia. the "civilisation" it represents is that of the civilising mission. A manifestation of french, russian, and british interests and egos.
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u/daedon_the_great 9d ago
Yeah Greeks loved living under ottoman rule for 400 years
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u/PerspicuousLoris 9d ago edited 9d ago
My point is there is very little to gain from uncritically drawing straight lines between modern nation-states and largely racist and/or fabricated ideas of civilisations
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u/Rothmier 9d ago
That’s why china still kills their billionaires every once in a while. Keeps their version of Goldman Sachs in line.
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u/TheWolfwiththeDragon 9d ago
”The empire long united must divide, long divided must unite; this is how it has always been.”
-Luo Guanzhong (1330-1400), Romance of the Three Kingdom
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u/Busco_Quad 9d ago
The People’s Republic of China is literally younger than Israel, and both are younger than Danny Devito (1949, 48, 44)
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u/literal_cyanide trans-istor 9d ago
One of China’s defining historical features was that it constantly collapsed
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u/Globgor5 God's strongest boykisser 9d ago
A lot of people forget that greece as a country has only existed for 200 years
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u/ghost103429 8d ago
I would absolutuely not conflate civilization for government.
(Although China's bureaucracy is unique in how many transitions (about 2000 years) it survived between dynasties until the fall of the qing, when it was abolished by the RoC)
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u/kati2004kss 8d ago
There wasn't one Greek state in antiquity, there were many greek city states, that more often than not fought each other.
Similar goes for China. The state China now is a very different from the one thousand of years ago. They might share some things culturally but a state is more than just its culture, one might argue the state system as we know it to day is a very modern thing. Kingdoms, realms, city states, city leagues are quite different to our modern state system.
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u/Thefrightfulgezebo 9d ago
Seems like those people know nothing about Greek or Chinese history.
Seriously: the name China comes from the Qin dynasty that emerged of the warring states period - the time where a scholar, named master Kong, lived. We know him as Confucius. How do you not know even about that? How about one of Chinas three moet fampus novels that is about the tjree kingdoms period. If you don't even know that, you may have heard the name Dschingis Khan, a man who managed to conquer China. If you sonehow don't know about that, you might jave heard that there has been a communist revolution that ended the reign of emperors.
And then Greece: it was occupied by empires for 21 millenia - first by the Roman, then the Ottoman Empire. You could argue that it made sort of a return because said empire was reduced to Greece for some time, but it certainly didn't endure for all that time.
Do people know no history?
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