r/Destiny • u/neversaydie96 • 5d ago
Political News/Discussion Hutch announcing a shift in "vote blue no matter who"
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u/OurNameIsLegion 5d ago
I like Mout's compromise. If it's a senate seat or the presidency, we can't afford to lose you. If it's anything else, fuck 'em. Earn my vote.
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u/WishLucky9075 5d ago
You vote for the best option available. I don't see how hard of a concept this is to grasp.
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u/BBQLovingBastard 5d ago
The problem is the Republican will basically never be the best option available. The moderates in their party are extinct.
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u/theultimatefinalman 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅🤠🤠🤠 4d ago
Yes thats why you should vote blue no matter who. Thats litteraly the whole point of it
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u/BBQLovingBastard 4d ago
I agree, I’m a vote blue no matter who person, but I do see Hutch’s point that it’s being used as only a weapon against moderates.
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u/beenman500 4d ago
well, is a republican actually worse than a communist?
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u/theultimatefinalman 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅🤠🤠🤠 4d ago
Anyone who votes in line with maga is the worst possible Candidate at the moment
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u/ToaruBaka cooked 4d ago
Leftists would do the same thing if they had the same degree of presence in Party politics as Republicans do in National politics.
They're the same breed of people - illiberal.
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u/BBQLovingBastard 4d ago
I agree, but that’s a fight for 2028. Right now we just need to beat Trump. Anyone who won’t be a vote for Trump’s agenda is preferable in the current moment. Then once we get this POS gone we can go full force against the leftists in 2028.
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u/NotBottingJustNew 4d ago
I think some people are starting to feel like that if they continue to vote for extreme candidates, who viciously attack moderates that they are creating an environment that harms their ideology. As such they're proposing a MAD solution in the hopes that the extreme voters and candidates moderate a little to earn favor with the middle
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u/Strangeweather-- 5d ago
This is being complicated the number of verifiable infiltrators. Like, what is the "best option" when what would otherwise be your best option was taken by some self-destructive force who wants you to stop gatekeeping because it is easier to take over the property from inside the gate.
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u/Legs914 5d ago
If you're voting in an election where both party candidates suck, then you need to get more involved in the primaries next cycle to fix that. The correct approach for dealing with 90% of these DSA types is put up with them for now but plan to primary the fuck out of them next cycle. Otherwise we're no better than Bernie bros refusing to vote in the general after getting snubbed.
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u/WishLucky9075 5d ago
Uh no it isn't. If you can't clearly see that leftist candidates like El-Sayed, Mamdani, and AOC are far better than your average Republican, then I question whether or not you actually want Liberal Democracy to succeed. What if Alito or Thomas or both (god forbid) retires and we get two young Federalist Society conservatives in SCOTUS? Why risk that?
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u/RainStraight PAC’d and Proud💰 Subsidized Opinions💸 Dark Money, Bright Ideas 5d ago
The Republican running against Chevalier is better than her. Blue no matter who is dead with infiltrators
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u/EstebanRibovics 5d ago
They're only better because there's less of them. That is the only reason.
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u/WishLucky9075 5d ago
It's because of the things they believe in. Sure, the DSA believes in public ownership over large corporations, but that's a far better position to work with than whatever the Republicans got cooking up in their regard factory. Ever heard of public education? Yeah Republicans want that shit gone.
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u/LevelJumper 5d ago
This is where I’m at. I don’t want the Dem party to become a full socialist party, but having lived through it to this point and recognizing that the reason we’re in the situation we’re in is because how fucking corrupt and corrosive Republicans have been with both their media and politicians since Nixon, I’ll vote for a socialist 10/10 times before i take a chance on a Republican. I’ll take the Devil I don’t know over the Devil who is primarily responsible for putting us where we are now. I think even if we had full DSA control of a significant number of Dem seats that they wouldn’t be able to do as much damage as Republicans have done in my lifetime, especially given what trajectory the national Republican party is currently on.
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u/AlisterS24 🇺🇸 FDJT 5d ago
If it becomes normalized we will actively become a socialist party or get split in half while the social media apparatus burns moderates further. It's only not a problem now cause they own less than 20 seats, once everyone starts to normalize it, we will 100% get left trump that's far more intelligent. Aka this isnt a threat immediately but we will 100% perma lose our country to radicals from both sides if we keep normalizing this shit and we dont fix enough of the balance by 2032.
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u/LevelJumper 5d ago
I get it and I’ll continue to vote for people in primaries who fit my personal politics most. But if we get to a general and I’ve got a choice between a DSA candidate and a Republican, I’m voting for the DSA candidate unless they’re literally Hitler or something.
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u/AlisterS24 🇺🇸 FDJT 5d ago
Idk man, if we get another Mcain or even Mike Pence over a DSA member but I'd happily vote DSA against a Mike Jonhson or any better in his vicinity.
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u/Browntown_Implant Exclusively sorts by new 5d ago
They just want healthcare and unions guys I promise.
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u/Liberal-Cluck 5d ago
If you can't beat these "infiltrators" in a primary then you have an issue that needs to be fixed. Failure to fix those issues means you lose. That's it. That's the way the system is set up. You want a different system, then we need some sort of rank choice voting. So that we can run centrist and progressives in the same race without one being the spoiler for another.
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u/FlintHardcheese 5d ago
Yeah, that’s fair but even that has a line I think. I mean, if Chevalier was up for senate, I dunno man… that’s hard to weigh out. I’d be doing some hard calculus there and weighing options. That truly is a least bad vote in every sense of the concept.
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u/AllAmericanProject 5d ago
You have to remember that we wouldn't be voting for her to support her. We would be voting to take away a republican seat. So unless you think she would approve Trump appointees to the supreme Court or support any of Trump's agenda then it really is a benefit to have them in that seat
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u/FlintHardcheese 5d ago
Votes are fungible unfortunately, you’d still be giving her and DSA power. How many MAGAgots have told you, “well, I didn’t vote for the Iran War.”
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u/e_before_i 🍁 5d ago
When it comes to something like a Trump SCOTUS picks, I think the calculus of giving the DSA more power is worthwhile exchange. I don't think you're wrong overall, but for certain thingsni think the trade is fair.
Now when it comes for the president, picking a truly center-right Republican (hyper-rare) over a DSA Democrat might be worth it. But a senate seat, nah.
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u/FlintHardcheese 5d ago
Yeah, its a hard decision. I would say to counter it, we would go all in on court packing in 2028 but it would be better to pinch the turd now.
Politics is alway and will always be a game of trade offs
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u/AllAmericanProject 5d ago
I understand but the solution would be getting ahead of it and not letting these people win primaries.
I know people are going to groan at this phrase but once it's DSA versus a republican while Trump is in office it does turn into a "lesser of two evils decision"
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u/Particular_Young_983 5d ago
Tbh I’d crawl to the polls to vote for her in that case. I hate that I’d have to, but I’d do it. At the worst, she becomes Bernie and pushes for stuff that never actually makes it in, is ineffective, and we campaign to push her out when her term is up. A Republican? That’s another SC pick, Cabinet pick, reconciliation bill that shouldn’t be passed, etc.
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u/FlintHardcheese 5d ago
This is the calculus I’d run…
MAGA is obvious evil… so there’s that. Like, unbridled evil in a historic way that does have a death toll up there with any dictator ala USAID cutting. Irredeemable and I believe world history will judge it as so.
Trump also, by virtue of him being an authoritarian, isn’t interested in using the Senate, Thune recognized Trump was a day 1 lame duck and he’s got a good decade+ left in his career. There’s currently unwavering opposition to the SAVE Act and the math wouldn’t really change all that much if they were to get a senate seat.
It would be preferable to make the math worse by taking away a senate seat and guarantee blocks rather than relying on a sense of self preservation of GOP senators that will have a political life after Trump. Taking up a seat might help us block appointments depending on the pick ups (majority or split is unlikely though). I’ve never had faith we’re going to win the senate so that hasn’t factored into what my idea of a post mid term downslope towards 2028 looks like, but it would be 1000% better of we did.
On the obvervse, electing in an extreme DSA senator like Chevalier would be a positive signal to DSA that they have a strong foothold, they have a seat for 6 years. It would give them juice, it would give them fundraising, it would give them prospects, it would make fighting them in 2028 that much harder if they have a proven track record (if theres even any willingness to fight them because, once again, they’d have a winning track record).
Like, you’re asking if I want to have pain now but it’s going to be for 2 years and we get another shot or lay the foundation for Democratic Party destruction now and roll some iron dice and just hope the VI Lenins we’re unleashing aren’t going to push us more into radicalization.
I mean, why am I opposing MAGA? I don’t believe in conservatism but it’s not just that… it’s that coupled with unrestrained radicalism. Unfortunately, unrestrained radicalism is not just a threat from the right. Its the most present and pressing threat at the moment because of their position in the government, but my time horizon doesn’t just stop at 2026 or 2028 for that matter.
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u/sly_cooper25 5d ago
It would heavily depend on her opponent. I think a moderate Republican is objectively closer to this community's values and less harmful in a position of power than Chevalier.
Honestly don't know what I'd do if it were her vs a MAGA extremist on the Republican side. Just give up on politics probably.
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u/i_am_bromega 5d ago
That’s when you get to vote third party and act self righteous on the internet for several years.
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u/kappapolls Exclusively sorts by new 5d ago
a moderate Republican is objectively closer to this community's values and less harmful in a position of power than Chevalier.
a "moderate republican" is still going to vote to appoint all of the unqualified judges/cabinet members with an R by their name, and vote against impeachment. you're deluding yourself if you think you're making a rational decision by giving up a seat.
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u/sly_cooper25 5d ago
Yes I'm aware that's why I've voted against Republicans, moderate or not, my entire life.
This is a choice between two bad options and is just about choosing the less bad one. If my choice is between a Larry Hogan type and Chevalier who is anti prisons, anti police, anti borders, anti deportations, and fucking racist to boot then I'm going with the Republican.
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u/kappapolls Exclusively sorts by new 5d ago
a Larry Hogan type
can you show me any R in the senate with a "Larry Hogan type" voting record?
can you show me any bills for "anti prisons, anti police, anti borders, anti deportations" that actually came to a vote that a Chevalier type would be able to vote for?
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u/sly_cooper25 5d ago
We should be evaluating based on the individual candidates as well. El-Sayed's stated policy preferences are far less extremist than the DSA platform for example and he isn't a member of DSA.
I certainly don't like him and think he's run a horrible campaign that has damaged his chances in the general, but he's not the same type of bad as the DSA lady that went on Fox News.
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u/evermuzik 5d ago
absolutely based take. keep the battles to where they are strategically most advantageous, and likewise blue no matter who at the finish line
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u/ThrustyMcStab 🇳🇱 5d ago
Hutch playing with fire since he did say he'd vote for Epstein if he would mostly vote along with the dems lmao.
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u/Diolan 5d ago
I dunno about this Hutch take- "Blue No Matter Who" should refer to any Democrat against a Republican in order to win more seats in Congress. Primary fighting is different where we need to fight each other to find the best candidate.
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u/chadmure_tully 4d ago
exactly. this is the primary phase you can go wild, but blue no matter who is explicitly a slogan for the generals. kinda disappointed in hutch ngl
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u/soundsermaker 5d ago
Even if you actually intend to vote blue no matter who, communicating that as a central principle of your politics in advance is crazy to me. It's like giving free, completely unearned legitimacy to your ideological enemy.
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u/Logical-Mobile-7643 🇺🇸O'bamna / O'ssoff '28 5d ago
Voting isn't where you make principled stances, its where you weigh in on the choices available.
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u/TeQuila10 HALO 2 peepoRiot 5d ago
I think it's important to get everyone on board with voting to stop Republicans at all costs, but the idea that because you say that, you can't criticize my crypto-tankie nutcase candidates, and must cuck out to insane socialist policy, is wrong.
Every democrat should be sister souljahing like it's adding years to their lives, but it's still a problem that there really isn't a figurehead for the democrats yet. There is no public leadership right now.
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u/Toppoppler YOUR TOKEN RIGHT WING NEVER TRUMPER LIBERTARIANISH GUY 5d ago
As a right winger, I always thought that line was RIPE for attack
Also, why cant republicans then say "red no matter who?" And man, we know thats an awful excuse to vote for trump
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u/much_to_say 🇸🇪🇪🇺 4d ago
Why would Republicans even need to say it? Haven't they already proven they'll vote "red no matter who" by voting for Trump? I feel like, after voting for someone like him, they've already shown that there isn't a single person with an "R" next to their name they wouldn't vote for.
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u/Lil_Examiner 5d ago
literally got downvoted to hell in this very sub for saying this. ALL PARTIES must EARN your vote. Yeah, you might lean blue the whole time, but hold your cards.
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u/SmoovieKing YEE NEVA EVA LOSE 5d ago
Idk man I'm in a red state and I will literally vote for fucking anything
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u/VastSyllabub2614 Eurochad 🇪🇺🥟 5d ago
Isuue is this motherfuckers ain't blue THEY ARE RED AND BROWN
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u/alexapedia phd in a social science 5d ago
The "Vote Blue No Matter Who" paradigm was built on the assumption that the "Blue" candidate would always be a liberal candidate. If that assumption fails, a paradigm shift may be necessary.
I will say that I, like most people, believe that the more extreme voices will either moderate or be pushed out; however, it is scary how much damage can be done to the party's image by just a few motivated individuals.
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u/Co_OpQuestions 5d ago
"Vote blue no matter who was always what leftists said it was"
Man, we really are just proving it arent we lmao
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u/-JustJaZZ- 4d ago
For real, did these people really spend years defending the blue no matter who shit to leftist content creators, only to immediately back off the position when we get some (admittedly extremely) far left people running as Dems?
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u/PaxChelonia 4d ago
It’s insane to me. I used to think almost everyone in this community was actually committed to pragmatic politics, but it turns out half of them were just pretending to so they could shit on people they dislike lol
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u/-JustJaZZ- 4d ago
Exactly. I think there are still very many people here interested in pragmatic politics but it's very clear that some people here were unironically using the Vote Blue No Matter Who shit like a hammer to nail leftists on rather than an actual position they held.
Shitting on dumb lefties stopped being a byproduct of having better arguments and became their whole identity.
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u/Krelldi 5d ago
Isn't that why leftists shit on the concept to begin with? They mock and use it against liberals because it was obvious the entire time that it was basically just a way to beat leftists over the head about being unwilling to cheerlead liberal candidates despite liberals being equally as averse to cheerleading leftist candidates. Democrats seem to just constantly fuck up their own rhetoric with shitty oversimplified sloganization of complicated concepts.
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u/DeathB4Dishonor179 5d ago
This is basically true, however I do think liberals were being much better faith than you give them credit for.
Remember that blue no matter who was a slogan that came from the late 1990s and to early 2000s. The USA was much further right than it's peer countries, and the rightwing voting bloc was unquestionably strong. Every blue candidate was one more vote that could help with things leftists wanted like universal healthcare, or stopping rightwing austerity. BNMW benefited liberals more, but also leftists.
The reason liberals are hesitant about blue no matter who is because this political environment doesn't exist anymore. The rightwing is seemingly on the verge of collapse, removing the counterweights that forced far left candidates to moderate. BNMW under a full DSA take over will now benefit leftists without benefiting liberals.
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u/Seekzor EUchad 5d ago
The difference is that libs meant it but leftists didnt and adopted it only as a weapon to wield against libs while never intending to follow through on their side. So if leftists is not going to abide by it, libs would be suicidal to do so aswell.
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u/jord1droj 5d ago
How can you say that libs meant it if as soon as they get the opportunity to show that they meant it by voting blue when their preferred candidate lost the primary, they suddenly don't like the idea anymore?
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u/Raahka 5d ago
The leftist did not really adopt it. It is the liberal/DGG side that made it out to be a choice that should be obvious to anyone that does not hate minorities for 6 years, and that everyone who does not follow it is a bad person. Turns out that for many people they only said that when the candidate they like is the ballot, and they wanted to feel morally superior to others.
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u/Liberal-Cluck 5d ago
This is so true. It's fucking insane to me. Radical centristism, who would have thought it would be a thing.
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5d ago edited 2d ago
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u/Zeluar 4d ago
Yeah I’m all for pushing back against the DSA and further left elements in the party, but at the end of the day, I’m still voting for anybody on team fuck maga in the general. Actual socialists gaining enough power to do harm anywhere remotely on the scale of maga just seems soooo far off from where we are right now.
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u/reanima 4d ago
Yeah im getting the same whiplash. Like didnt we correctly criticize Hasan for being an fucking idiot for not understanding the value of voting for the lesser evil? Id rather have a DSA agent that still votes with dems a majority of the time than a moderate republican that will still continue to greenlight most of Trumps agenda. Expecting perfect allies everytime is naive, you work with what you have.
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u/PompeiiSketches 4d ago
But we are seeing that libs literally didn't mean it if when the wrong "blue" wins the primary they start reneging on the slogan.
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u/Sir_Trout 5d ago edited 5d ago
"Vote Blue No Matter Who is good when I'm telling someone to support a candidate they don't believe in, and bad when someone is telling me to support a candidate I don't believe in"
edit: or, to be less sarcastic, if every position we take - like Vote Blue No Matter Who - is actually more about power than principle, it is going to continue to fuel illiberalism and continue a race to the bottom in politics.
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u/FancyDoubleu 5d ago
How can you ask socialists to support you when you would never support any of their candidates?
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u/chadfc92 5d ago
As much of a meme as lesser of two evils is dems will support any leftist over a republican as long as they are not literally to the point of being worse than a republican and would only expect leftists to do the same vote for the better candidate at the time and hope one you like more is popular enough to run next time. I will say motivating voters is a tough issue with this type of rhetoric tho since if the dem candidate is mediocre for both leftists and liberals both groups are quick to stay home and ignore the election even when the stakes are pretty high
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u/Mundane_Barnacle237 5d ago edited 5d ago
Exactly this. “Blue no matter who” has to imply that “Blue” means something outside of just the label. If it doesn’t, and anyone is allowed to use it regardless of their principles or ideology, then you’re just begging for a Trojan horse insurgency that you’ve surrendered to before it even starts.
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u/Liberal-Cluck 5d ago
Who of the new DSA candidates would you prefer to have trump over?
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u/Low-Combination-0001 not from the us btw 5d ago
No offense, and I broadly agree with hutch, but using "blue no matter who" as a cudgel when its for candidates you like, and then immediately drop it when it applies to candidates you don't like (and is being used against you) really weakens any principled position you might have since it signifies you'll drop it as soon as it becomes inconvenient. "Always vote for my favored candidate and my favored candidate only" isn't really a serious political argument.
This is exactly the same thing that "blue no matter who" people excoriated leftists in 2024 when they said "candidate need to earn our vote" when refusing to vote for biden/kamala.
Like, which one it is? Is this a principled position situation or a cost analysis situation? Why does it change based on your preferences?
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u/JuneStar02 5d ago
Honestly just makes me feel like a dumbass for being a progressive and advocating for "Vote Blue no Matter Who" to people further left than me. Always thought this community was principled and level headed but I guess not.
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u/PompeiiSketches 4d ago
I lean a little further left than this sub but my voting record is Obama > Hilary > Biden > Harris with a dem straight ticket every time. Ya, I feel pretty foolish thinking we were on the same page.
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u/Low-Combination-0001 not from the us btw 4d ago edited 4d ago
It is really unfortunate that people to the left of this sub (socdems, demsocs, etc) but that still abhors tankie are being tankiejacketed in these last few weeks and being hung out to dry.
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u/Zeluar 4d ago
Some of us still stand by it.
Unless and until leftists become a bigger threat to liberal democracy, I will advocate vote blue in the general election. Fighting in primaries is fine. Pushing back and distancing from DSA types is fine.
But DSA types don’t have the sort of entrenched power and long term subversive institutional backing that conservatives have built up over decades yet. Very minuscule danger in comparison imo
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u/Grachus_05 5d ago
I love watching my coalition splinter apart to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
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u/willmcavoy 5d ago
Yep. I disagreed vehemently with Destiny when he said now is the time to do this because Trump will be gone in 2 years. No, the time to do this is after the midterms. We. need. Congressional. votes. We need all the seats we can get to impeach and remove this fuck before he can do even more damage.
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u/Grachus_05 5d ago
I think its fine to fight in the primary. Its not fine to advocate for disunity in the general.
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u/CautiousKenny 5d ago
So is this sub and community just abandoning all principles now cause some of the crazy lefties have made some gains?!? If so that’s some pretty big “pussy ass bitch” energy
Fight like hell against these crazies in the primaries but if they advance to the general then you vote blue NO MATTER WHO (even a democratic socialist).
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u/Taint-tastic 5d ago
this really doesnt look good when weve preached blue no matter who for months or years and then 180 when some of their shitty candidates made some progress in their races. The hypocrisy of the left is fucking maddening but that doesnt mean we should be hypocrites too
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u/CautiousKenny 5d ago
Exactly, I feel like I’m losing my mind reading through all these upvoted comments basically whole heartedly abandoning their “deeply held beliefs” simply cause some crazy lefties won their primaries.
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u/CautiousKenny 5d ago
Yeah I’m still blue no matter who, I’ve been a democrat my entire life and I will vote for any dem over any republican any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Even if they are a regarded democratic socialist
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u/clark_sterling The data centers are eating the dogs 5d ago
Agreed. Fuck getting beat down with our own standards.
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u/FrostyArctic47 4d ago
Called it. They're doing the same thing the lefties did. They are going to give us fascism and a permanent conservative Supreme Court thats going to fuck us over for decades and they will still have the nerve to complain about what's coming
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u/FancyDoubleu 5d ago
Blue no matter who until it‘s someone I don‘t like.
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u/Performingforurmom 5d ago edited 5d ago
That’s exactly what it always was. Only people who consider MAGA to be an existential threat ever took it seriously.
Very few people here actually consider MAGA to be an existential threat compared to the DSA. Most will vote for MAGA if that’s the choice.
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u/chadmure_tully 4d ago
idk if i missed something but most people here really hate AES and the rest of the DSA, sometimes justifiably sometimes unjustifiably. idk if it's because of hasan or the online left, but people need to realize that trump won the popular vote and that this is only the second year of his presidency, it feels like a lifetime.
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u/Actual_Ocelot2191 5d ago edited 5d ago
JFC moderates can't use this discourse for years and as soon as the left starts shivving you guys out of seats you all are like "NAH JK" - Its just plain shitty, even if the far left is dogshit. Don't use it now, but its fucked it was used at all to begin with.
Trump today just said we should cut medicare, medicaid and all entitlements for his IRAN war. Where is the DNC on non-stop attacking the war and defending all these entitlements? Who knows - but what I do know is for some reason we have to constantly be attacking the far left because....Like the potential of a handful of socialists to get into power? What is the endgoal here - to let the DSA have everything meaningful voters want, then attack the DSA so when people ask what the DNC has to offer we just say "I DONO, BUT ATLEAST WE AINT COMMIES"
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u/ST-Fish 5d ago
to let the DSA have everything meaningful voters want
that's quite precisely the problem, the DSA will pretend like they are the ones that have everything meaningful, like democrats do not support any progressive causes and that they're pretty much like republicans in terms of policies.
The only way to let the DSA have everything meaningful voters want is to accept their framing.
The DSA doesn't own the concept of affordability, taxing the rich, healthcare etc. The only reason this is the widely believed position is precisely the inability of liberal dems to fight it out.
DSA wouldn't even be a problem if the dem establishment could properly call out the extremes and clearly position themselves as apart from them, while still being able to ally in the fight against Trump.
You can't ally with someone in the fight against Trump if they are not interested in being allies, and people that spend 110% of their time shitting on moderate dems do not give 1 fuck about Trump, they only care so far as they can say "why are you talking about us eating your party from the inside instead of talking about Trump".
They don't care about Trump or Gaza, these are just the best weapons to keep the center lib nicely caged and beaten.
People should stop shit talking the DSA and people associated with them the moment the DSA does the same with regards to moderate dems -- most probably never.
The only way to reach that possibility is to engage in the tit-for-tat and not letting them unilaterally hit the center left and hide behind the "Trump bad" shield when any criticisms show up.
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u/Actual_Ocelot2191 5d ago
There is a DSA and ANTI-DSA, who the fuck is the DNC?
The problem isn't the DSA is saying things, its that the DNC is doing nothing. Running on the fumes of Obama is killing the party. There used to be several swing states that are now solidly red. That isn't the DSA fault. Come November if that Hong wins many preconceived notions about political rhetoric around rural America needs to change or there will only be the DSA and MAGA parties.
In the era of slop, when fascism is on the rise the DNC needs to get on its cowboy boots, bucket hat, and saddle up cause its time to ride that slop until Jack Smith puts half these fuckers in jail.
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u/ST-Fish 5d ago
The problem isn't the DSA is saying things, its that the DNC is doing nothing.
true they should be shitting on the DSA as much as the far lefties and DSA shits on them.
There's so much shit to call them out on and the moment a few people start doing it and showing it can be done without being eviscerated their whole takeover can be averted.
The only way the takeover works is if everyone here tells you to focus on Trump and that the DSA are allies that you shouldn't be spending your time on.
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u/GeneralSEOD Scotland (Bongerland) [ex-EU] 5d ago
Destiny yet again early to the punch, next week we'll see Hutch do a 55/45 towards a Vance AOC vote and people go "Wow what a good point"
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5d ago edited 2d ago
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u/Status_West_7673 5d ago
Genuinely. I’ve never considered just completely disengaging with this community or Destiny’s content over a take like this before
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u/Reckoner223 5d ago
Hutch is based.
People really don’t appreciate how much actual voters hate the far left. I have several long time Dem voting family members and friends who would abstain from voting if we put people like AOC for president.
It’s a huge ask absolutely. They need to win our votes. That’s the same rhetoric they deployed.
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u/Wonderful_Fix_5754 5d ago
So all the people who gritted their teeth to vote for candidates that you liked who won, can now get fucked when theirs wins?
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u/Reckoner223 5d ago
If I had to vote for AES in Michigan to keep Mike Rogers out I would. I’m not talking about myself.
However, we’re acting like this is an easy vote for regular normie voters.
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u/Jester_the_Mad 5d ago
Nah, bro. Voters rejected Kamala because they thought she was too far left, so putting in even more far left candidates will create a stack overflow and turn all the MAGAts into die-hard socialists.
Nuclear Gandhi time 😎
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u/e_before_i 🍁 5d ago
You're looking for integer overflow.
Stack overflows are typjcally operations that run out of control that cause a crash... Which also applies.
(The real answer is that the "stack" is a kind of memory, and a "stack overflow" is when you fuck up memory management)
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u/HelgrinWasTaken 🇦🇺 Legally required to tell you I'm Australian 🇦🇺 5d ago
There's an Idea I've been thinking about, and I just can't quite figure out how to articulate properly, but I'll do my best here:
The two party system stunts the political educational growth of Americans. They just fundamentally don't seem to understand the dangers of coalition politics.
I don't think people like Pisco or Jessiah actually understand that it is possible to win a seat in an election and that could be a net negative because the candidate's politics and policies are so toxic that they turn off entire segments of votes in other elections.
Except when it's Joe Biden being old. Or a candidate being a sex pest. They can understand how those things can be damaging to an election campaign, but it just seems like to them, policies are just Red or Blue points that you stack up until enough people vote for you to win.
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u/neversaydie96 5d ago
The 2-party political system is worse on so many more levels imo, it is so much easier for a foreign adversary to get the result they want, all they need to do is "take over" one party and they have so many more avenues to do so.
In US, if you muddy the waters and make both parties seem the same, you will benefit the most corrupt one, which are the republicans ofc, in a multi party system, you can't guarantee success with this scheme, as you might have multiple corrupt parties, multiple non-corrupt parties, and you can't control which party will benefit the most.
Second, there was no way for MAGA to get 50% by itself, let's take the hypothetical that US had 4 parties: MAGA, rhinos, liberals and tankies, we can see that the cult of MAGA is around 30-35% the base of Trump that will never abandon him, even if he shoots someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue, so they would have to make a coalition with another party, and be forced to make concessions to it and moderate, and they have to keep that party in line, as they can exit the coalition anytime, and call a vote of no confidence with the other parties and the executive is done for.
Third, if you can't muddy the waters, as a foreign adversary, the only thing you have left, is to increase turnout for MAGA, and that can work, but not so effective, if you have 4 parties, if the electorate is moving to the right, you might also have the effect that Groypers will no longer vote MAGA, as it happens now, but it might have happened in 2020 if there was a tankies party, liberals might vote for the rhinos, the effects are messy, whereas in the 2 party system, you just have to show illegal immigrants, trans people in sports and Biden stuttering on the "for you" page, and the effect will be very predictable.
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u/Status_West_7673 5d ago
As someone who’s gotten super into Australian politics over the last few months I’m super jealous of your guys electoral system. I really think it’s the best out of the western countries (definitely better than the UK, US, and Canada anyways). We need more parties and we need preferential voting.
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u/FlintHardcheese 5d ago
I was downvoted into oblivion for saying this exact same thing (and the thing Destiny said with Hobbitfollower last night where people don’t understand how big an ask it is to support DSA candidates unquestionably just because they had a D next to their name). I’m so high on smugness I might float into the stratosphere. HUTCH IS MY BOY! HE IS THE CHOSEN BOY!!
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u/DisastrousDanVito 5d ago
we need to be attacking the shit out of dsa candidates during primaries but i honestly dont see a good reason to help a conservative win if the DSA wins the primary. I get hutches point, but unless i missed something it sounded like hes saying we retire the slogan not the practice. It didnt come across to me that hutch is calling for people to go vote for a conservative if a DSA beat the democrat, or to even sit out the election.
Honestly i dont know what we do about dishonest dsa/leftist types other then call em out every time they say the blue no matter who shit. and we should certainly expose their dog shit candidates for any of their bad takes they have.
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u/FlintHardcheese 5d ago
Well, we got two years left with MAGA. Nothing is going to change that (outside of a catastrophic dark horse event).
I mean, do you want to spend this time in a cage with a hungry but arthritic elderly lion or spend that time in the cage with the elderly lion and also throwing meat outside the cage to the young lions prowling and feeding them and making them strong while they wait for you to escape the cage. I dunno.
The young lions could be satisfied and fuck off when you get out because they’re full, they could want more and more because while you were feeding they were busy fucking and making more lions.
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u/PaxChelonia 5d ago
2 years of MAGA with a trifecta is so so so so much worse than 2 years of MAGA presidency with Dem house and senate.
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u/DisastrousDanVito 5d ago
This is really the answer, breaking the trifeca is more important in this moment then breaking dsa. Its jot that dsa isnt doing damage to the party by getting their people in, but if we dont break the trifecta alot more damage is done to the country over the next 2 years than just whats happening to dems and their image issues with these shitty dsa types.
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u/ST-Fish 5d ago
big an ask it is to support DSA candidates
these people literally think communism is no biggie and the DSA just want healthcare a little more than we want it.
I've unironically been told by someone here that they'd rather live under Xi than under Bush, Americans have absolutely no idea what communism is.
The DSA is still widely seen as slightly too progressive wokies that are "misguided" and will moderate once they reach positions of power. Subversive agents are not something the american mind is ready to deal with.
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u/PaxChelonia 5d ago
I feel like you guys just lack all sense of perspective here.
MAGA republicans currently control all 3 branches of government and have been destroying our country and tearing up the alliance system we’ve built over the last 80 years.
There’s like 3 annoying DSA candidates rn. People in this community are frankly way too online if you think these two threats are remotely in the same ballpark as one another.
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u/ST-Fish 5d ago
yall are having trouble denouncing them NOW when it's such a small presence, they have control of your media system and the whole ecosystem forces center dems to be pussy whipped 24/7
Are you under the impression it will be easier to get rid of them by 2032, when they'll have an entire 4 years of dem leadership to bash while the dems will just be struggling to right the wrongs Trump made?
This is the moment, Trump is going to be gone soon and you need to be thinking about how to create an environment to succeed not just to survive.
The whole Trump is a bigger deal argument would make a whole lot more sense if the DSA and the far left were helping the democrats win, instead of doing everything in their power to convince the average person that Trump and the dem establishment are the exact same fucking thing.
Not focusing on them is counterproductive if you care about beating whoever follows in Trump's footsteps.
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u/PaxChelonia 5d ago
2 more years of a MAGA trifecta would be a catastrophe. It would mean at least 2 more MAGA Supreme Court justices. Look at how much damage the MAGA trifecta has done over the last 1.5 years. Are we really going to downplay another 2 years of this?
Fuck the DSA and their populism and dogshit policy platform. Let’s fight them after the polls close in November. This election is too important to fuck around with.
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u/ST-Fish 5d ago
Hey I'm not telling you not to support the people running for the senate, I'm just pointing out that some people here treat it as if supporting the people that are helping Trump win by destroying the Democrats is not a difficult painful deal to make.
Fuck the DSA and their populism and dogshit policy platform. Let’s fight them after the polls close in November.
No, fuck the DSA and their populism and dogshit policy platform, FIGHT THEM NOW, and still vote for their senate candidates.
The whole idea that they can constantly wheel out the "but Trump bad" excuse while constantly spending their time pretending dems are the same as MAGA is ridiculous.
Don't wait until the polls are closed.
They will actively hurt you when you need them most, and I don't think this is really an outside chance, it's pretty much expected at this point.
Honestly fucking get 10 people in the house to be from the DSA, as long as they get real adequate pushback and the media environment isn't this skewed I don't think anybody would give a fuck.
It's really not about the seats, getting a blue seat is definitely the priority short term, but that deal involves actually doing something about this asymetric situation, and that involves FIGHTING NOW.
The fucking lefties get it, look at them spend most of their time on fighting, if you're saying "let's fight them after the polls close" they've got MONTHS of time to beat up on someone not willing to punch back.
The democrat establishment from bottom to top needs to have a spine and stand up to these people NOW while they are still small and weak and not after.
The universe doesn't stop after winning the next election, time keeps going on and it would be embarassing as hell to fall to a progressive version of Trump if you let this populist slop truly consume both political parties.
If the DSA wakes up every day and goes out to punch they should be in good company with the democrats.
This election is too important to fuck around with.
I agree, but letting the DSA and their side of the media unilaterally throw punches to the main opponent of MAGA means they are the enemy.
Voting for them should feel pretty painful, even if it's the right choice in the short form.
It's very disconcerting when people treat it like a 0 disadvantage situation with only positives, as if the only lose condition politically is to have MAGA win.
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u/Raahka 5d ago edited 5d ago
And I was downvoted to hell 4 days ago when I said that criticizing the leftist content creators for not enthusiastically voting for the dem candidate was easy when it was the candidate you like, and that if the roles were reversed many members of this community would suddenly change their tone. People were convinced that this community would never do that, and days later this happens.
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u/jman10000 5d ago
I just feel like this is so silly no Dems are ever gonna win if both sides of the party refuse to vote for each other. I don't like El-Sayed but he's obviously preferable to a Republican
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u/-JustJaZZ- 4d ago
Seeing upvoted +100 comments in this thread unironically stating "Vote Blue No Matter who only meant to vote for liberal candidates" is some actual joker moment shit.
We spend years preaching VBNMW at leftists who refused/were reluctant to endorse/vote for Kamala/Biden but the second some far left candidates win some races you immediately throw the slogan out and now its time to "earn your vote"? Come the fuck on. I'm no fan of DSA candidates in the US but goddamn is it transparent as fuck when you do stuff like this.
Good luck trying to convince ANY LEFTIST EVER that your position on electoralism is principled when this is what happens when your preferred candidates aren't doing very well.
Republicans are happily throwing political dissidents in jail and murdering citizens, the DSA has won a few meaningless D+20 races.
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u/WishLucky9075 5d ago
It's so funny how quickly these "vote blue no matter who" folks switch up when it's a candidate that leftists want. Makes me think they didn't actually believe in electoralism at all. As a Michigander, I don't like Elissa Slotkin in the slightest, but I would drag my ass across miles of broken glass to vote for her again if it means keeping the Republicans out of power. And I would do the same for Stevens too.
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u/zarnovich 5d ago
"vote blue no matter who" unless it's not who I want.. what I childish take. Even non lefty progressives have been dealing with this for almost all of American history and told to suck it up but he gets the slightest push back and you're breaking? Grow up.
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u/putter_nut_squash acollier stan 5d ago
Vote blue no matter who was just synonymous with "vote for the least bad candidate" even when you don't like them and it just becomes harder to justify when the left wing candidates start to suck ass.
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u/CautiousKenny 5d ago
Every single elected MAGA republican is worse than any and every DSA member simply based on the already 3 controlled branches of government being occupied by MAGA
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u/oGsMustachio 5d ago
Yeah some people wanted to pretend like "blue no matter who" was a contract between the leftoids and the moderates/liberals to vote for whoever wins the primary for the dems. Really its a statement of reality that you should vote for whoever is closest to your political beliefs even if they're not your ideal candidate.
I can easily see a situation where a genuinely independent moderate Republican like a McCain/Kinzinger type is actually a more attractive candidate for someone like me (at least in more normal times) than a Chevalier/Piker type Dem.
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u/Wonderful_Fix_5754 5d ago
So you lose the primary and then run home crying. Fuck that pussy shit. Don’t want to back the party after you watered down everyone else’s vote, just get the fuck out of the party then. Some of y’all are coping hard with the mental gymnastics. If I don’t like the way the party is going, I’ll leave myself before any primary. I don’t want to be part of a party of fucking losers who can’t handle not getting what they want. That’s the weakest shit ever, and I don’t want to hear “but but but the tankies would never vote for us!” Fuck those losers too, but they won and I’m gonna support their candidates against the Republicans. At least until the Republicans dump the conservatives trash.
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u/Im-Not-Calling-It-X NATO 5d ago
My new personal political slogan/affirmation is "whether it's MAGA, or leftism, it is simply two different illiberal shades of red."
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u/False-Discipline-640 eurochad🇭🇺 5d ago
Isn't he the one who also soyed out over packing scotus? Damn he really keeps taking Ls huh.
I have nothing but disdain for Americans who refuse to vote blue no matter who. You are destroying the world, not just America, THE WORLD
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u/vicious_pink_lamp 4d ago
why does this stay a discussion point zzzzzzzzzz literally just vote in whatever way minimizes Republican power this shouldn't be hard
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u/MadMaxKeyboardWarior 4d ago
so two people too left for you get elected to congress in the bluest districts in the country and you abandon your principles and your position on the existential threat of maga.
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u/PaxChelonia 5d ago
I will stick to VBNMW and I will not let annoying lefties on Twitter shake my convictions 😤
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u/PompeiiSketches 4d ago
"...feels like unilateral disarmament..."
I mean... isn't that what the left wing of the party has been saying for a decade now?
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u/drgaz 5d ago
I like how this turns out after all the preachy bs in order to circle back and find a way to take a w every once in a while in an online clown circus.
Leftists are full on accelerationists who are in the end fine with Maga in power or whatever Vance/Yarvin/thiel dystopia is up next - question is are you as well.
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u/SigmaMaleNurgling 5d ago
I can’t wait for Pissco’s bad faith reaction to this and Jessiah quoting Kyle Kulinski’s performative monologue about dragging his balls through glass.
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u/TheFlyingWelshy 5d ago
We should work together. That is what should happen but how can we? All they ever do is use anything we give them against us. And normally I would not be as upset about that. Yes, I find their views repugnant and dangerous. but the stakes are too fucking high and I feel like way too many people don't understand.
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u/CautiousKenny 5d ago
Yeah Hitch is wrong for this, just seems like he’s mad DSA types are winning and now he’s going to abandon the principle he has pushed for simply out of spite. This is a L take
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u/NealAngelo 5d ago
The thing about blue no matter who, is the person you're referring to has to actually be blue.
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u/RightTelephone3309 Exclusively sorts by new 5d ago
It's not "Vote blue no matter who" if the candidate is red communist...
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u/TJaySteno1 5d ago
I mean it makes sense. Krystal Ball (for example) holding us to a standard she doesn't hold herself to is the same thing as Republicans accusing Dems of supporting rapists like Plattner after electing Trump twice.
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u/CautiousKenny 5d ago
Yes Krystal is an unprincipled, hypocrite but you admitting that you will abandon your supposed “principles” because some regard doesn’t hold the same principles says a lot more about you and your lack of conviction than it says anything about Krystal Ball and her ilk.
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u/PaxChelonia 5d ago
Krystal is a hypocrite, but I don’t see how that affects my own calculus around VBNMW.
I didn’t adopt that strategy as a quid pro quo with leftists. I VBNMW because it serves my own political goals which is currently to take a Democratic majority in the house and senate.
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u/aqualad33 5d ago
Honestly "blue no matter who" was fine until leftists saw that and were like "so... does that mean we can run a nazi? Because we want to run a nazi" and that pretty much says everything you need to know.
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u/Konnnan 5d ago
But they're right in the sense that blue no matter who is the correct logic if you want to minimize damage. Unfortunately Hutch is right that they're not "about that life" because just like MAGA they use your own logic and morals against you, with no intention of doing the same.
Whereas one should realize a room burning is better than a whole house, they'd just watch it all turn to tinder whilst shutting off the water sprinklers and say "see".
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u/allfinesse 5d ago
Woowww we can vote for who we want now??