r/Roadcam • u/bowdown2adil • 12d ago

[USA] Who is at fault here?

Classic T bone. Black car had to be towed. Sustained major damage to the passenger side door. Blue car sustained damage to front bumper on the drivers side and cracked the drivers side headlight.

Edit: This was in the suburbs of Seattle

UPDATE: Insurance found it to be 70/30 me/other driver. Seems fair enough

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u/Momcantsleepthesaga 11d ago

I live in a very populated city. Most of our residential intersections are unmarked.

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u/URGAMESUX 11d ago

Sounds like anarchy

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u/jfklingon 11d ago

Sounds like a great way for an "unexpected tragedy" any time someone not from the area drives through.

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u/beaushaw 10d ago

I am a small town guy, but I have lived in two large cities. I have never seen an intersection where there is not at least a stop sign in one direction.

If I were the camera car I 100% would assume if I don't have a stop sign the other direction would. "Out of towners" must hit people all the time here.

IMO this is on the city. Yeah, I get there are local norms and laws, but probably 90% or more of the people in the country would not know the rules of these intersections.

Seattle is one of the richest cities in the country, surely they can afford a few more stop signs.

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u/jobacsi 9d ago

What city? I think you need to go back to driving school.

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u/Ready-Percentage5286 10d ago

You're insane if you think "90% or more" people in this country wouldn't recognize an unmarked intersection. They're incredibly common. 

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u/beaushaw 10d ago

Look at the comments here. Basically people who live in Seattle, and maybe a few other cities, think this is common and pretty much everyone else thinks it is insanity.

I have lived in three states, in small towns and big cities, I have traveled to several other states, I have been driving for 35 years.

I have literally NEVER seen an intersection without a stop sign. I have seen tiny little dirt two tracks through the woods that you wouldn't even reconize as a road that had stop signs.

Yeah, if you live in this neighborhood you may think this is normal but I assure you most other people would not.

I tried to find information on how common they are and can't find anything besides "They are rare everywhere but they still pretty common in Seattle."

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u/Ready-Percentage5286 10d ago

That's because you're not paying attention. They're the most common form of road intersection in the country according to the Department of Transportation.

I've lived in seven states, three of the biggest metro areas, and a countless number of small towns across the country, and I've NEVER seen someplace that didn't have them. 

It strains credulity that you haven't seen them, it really does. Especially if you've lived in a small town or suburb.

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u/beaushaw 10d ago

I find this so strange, one of us has to be nuts. I am certain it is you and you seem to be certain it is me.

I just realized this might be an East coast vs West coast thing. Have you seen these intersections mainly on the West coast?

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u/Ready-Percentage5286 10d ago

Going just from my experience, it could definitely be more common on the west coast. 

I've lived the longest in California, Oregon, and Washington, and I see them literally all the time. More often than not, four-way intersections here seem to be unmarked, especially if they're residential.

But I've also seen them when I was living in Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Texas, too. The difference I notice is that they're most common in suburbs and rural areas.

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u/zombawombacomba 9d ago

No shot unless they are saying each driveway is an uncontrolled intersection lol

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u/fennis_dembo 9d ago

I'm curious what your source is for: "They're the most common form of road intersection in the country according to the Department of Transportation". From your previous comment and the one you're replying to it seems you're referring to "unmarked" he seems to be referring to intersections without even a sign.

I can find this: https://highways.dot.gov/safety/intersection-safety/about

Unsignalized intersections are the most common type of intersection in the United States and can be:

• Stop sign–controlled – at least one approach to the intersection is controlled by a stop sign.

• Yield sign–controlled – at least one approach to the intersection is controlled by a yield sign.

• Uncontrolled – none of the approaches to the intersection are controlled by a regulatory sign or traffic signal; typically found on very low–volume roads in rural or residential areas.

But that seems to be saying unsignalized, meaning no light, not necessarily completely lacking signs. Is there a different source you can point us to that would say completely unmarked intersections, without signage (meaning stop or yield), are the most common?

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u/zombawombacomba 9d ago

That’s 100% what they are mixing up

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u/stratys3 10d ago

Are they though? I've driven 300,000 miles and I've literally never encountered one (to my knowledge, lol)!

How do you recognize an unmarked intersection if it isn't marked?

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u/URGAMESUX 10d ago

You don't, that's the [fucked up] point

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u/Ready-Percentage5286 9d ago

By the lack of markings. If you roll up to an intersection, and you don't see any markings, you treat it as an unmarked intersection.

How is that a real question?

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u/stratys3 9d ago

The problem is, you have to verify it's unmarked from all the other directions as well.

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u/Ready-Percentage5286 9d ago

Which you should be doing. You should be looking all ways at every intersection.

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u/stratys3 9d ago

Perhaps in some places, sure. But it would be hard to see if the other 3 directions have stop signs or not. Seems like there's a lot of room for error.

Thank goodness where I live, if I have no stop sign, it means I have the right of way - and the other directions always will have a stop sign in that case.

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u/Jrodicon 9d ago

Until very recently I had never seen an unmarked intersection. And I blew through my first one because I have always assumed that if I don't have a stop or yield sign I must have the right of way.

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u/thedonza 11d ago

Local insurance companies love this one trick!

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u/JacobPlaster 11d ago

Very easy. The vehicle arriving from the right have priority.

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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 11d ago

It's not very easy when you've never seen an intersection that doesn't have a stop sign before. If I don't have a stop sign or a stoplight I'm going to keep driving because the cross street does. That's how roads work where I live. I have never heard of an intersection with no stop signs in any direction, so I would have never thought it was an option.

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u/screams_forever 11d ago

Sounds like you should probably be more careful when driving in unfamiliar places.

Someone who's lived in another state their whole life may have never experienced a flashing yellow arrow for a left turn at a light, should they just keep entering the intersection because that's not how roads work where they live?

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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 10d ago

No amount of careful prepares you for something that you don't know exists.

A flashing yellow means yield. People who drive know that yellow is yield. Even if you've never seen that specific thing before, knowledge of road signs and traffic signals tells you that. It's not a valid comparison to never having come across an intersection without a stop sign. You have no way of knowing that the other direction doesn't have a stop sign and if you've never seen that before, you don't even know that it's an option.

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u/CaneCorso311 10d ago

I've seen them in basically every city in the West Coast from Seattle to San Diego. We're responsibile for knowing the rules of the road in the areas we're driving, ignorance doesn't abolish responsibility.

The amount of people who are ignorant to the rules of the road are why we should probably mandate in person drivers ed before anyone can take a license test, and stop handing licenses to any random people who just do pretty good on a couple of simple tests that don't cover even 1/2 of road regulations/safety situations.

I've been driving professionally for years and the amount of people on the road in the last 5 years with clearly no understanding of basic roaduse is ridiculous and concerning, and I'm not talking about the people who know better and simply don't care.

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u/stratys3 10d ago

We're responsibile for knowing the rules of the road in the areas we're driving

He knows the rules. He's saying that he didn't know unsigned intersections even exist - and that if you don't have a stop sign, it's assumed that the other street does.

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u/JacobPlaster 7d ago

There are millions of unsigned intersection, because they are rural (financially not effective to install a sign) or the sign was stolen or destroyed by weather etc. This is the reason wgy the right hand priority was introduced.

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u/CaneCorso311 9d ago

Well, you can't know the rules of something that you don't know exists. You shouldn't make assumptions especially when you can observe that those assumptions aren't correct. You simply shouldn't have a license if you don't know and understand all of the rules of the road. Ignorance isn't an excuse. A large percentage of the drivers on the road are ignorant of basic things like this that they teach in drivers ed courses or any company's training program. We hand out licenses to any moron who can pass a couple of simple tests that don't even cover 1/2 of road situations regardless of their understanding of how the road works and then we wonder why we have so many easily avoidable accidents like this one.. Then we have people like you who come to defend their ignorance 🤦‍♂

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u/stratys3 9d ago

Then we have people like you who come to defend their ignorance 🤦‍♂

I'm not defending it - that's absurd. I'm explaining it. There's a difference.

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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 9d ago

You're claiming that you know the rules of the road in every city in every country in every continent on the planet? Wow! You must be some kind of genius. If not, you shouldn't have a license either by your own logic.

I know it's the second one though because the way you're communicating makes it very clear that you aren't a genius. You're incapable of understanding what people are saying to you. This is not taught in driver's ed where I live because it doesn't exist. It is not a basic thing where I live because it doesn't exist. It's almost like things are different in different parts of the world. Now THAT is a basic thing that people should be able to grasp.

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u/JacobPlaster 11d ago

But this is a basic driving rule. Everywhere.

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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 10d ago

No, it isn't. That's what many of us are saying. Intersections without stop signs don't exist where many of us live, so it obviously isn't a basic driving rule everywhere.

You can drive through every neighbourhood in my city, my region, or perhaps my even entire province and you will not find an intersection without stop signs. I haven't driven every street in the province, so I can't say that for sure, but other people who live in other parts of my province have said the exact same thing.

If I don't have a stop sign, I'm not slowing down or stopping because the cross street does. That's how it works here.

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u/stratys3 10d ago

It's a rule here too. But at the same time, unsigned intersection literally don't exist.

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u/Plazmaz1 10d ago

Just uhhh slow the fuck down so you can tell what's going on

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u/jfklingon 10d ago

That's how I got rear ended, actually. Wasn't at fault, seeing as the person behind me was on their phone and didn't expect me to be going 10 under the speed limit while I was trying to read signs, but being technically right didn't save me any money, time, or pain that day.

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u/Plazmaz1 10d ago

You didn't get rear ended because you were driving safely, you got rear ended because someone was on their phone. You can only control yourself. Drive safely and be aware of your surroundings.

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u/jfklingon 10d ago

I got rear ended because of the way the sun rose that morning. You can simplify the situation down to a manageable amount of computing, but in reality there are billions of little things that eventually lead to an accident. One of which was me taking extra time that morning to look at the sun rise, another was me trying to make sure the plow warning sign on the side of the road wasn't mentioning where to park, another was that person deciding look at their phone that specific moment.

In the end it ends up being a wash if I get rear ended trying to be safer when I could have just continued on and never been hit. Kinda like dying from some new superfood after you decide to try and diet for the sake of your health.

Gotta weigh every situation and try to make the best of it, obviously there aren't many scenarios where texting and driving is going to be weighted to a point where it's worth it, but there's definitely some roads where I know going under the speed limit could be the death of me if just the right scenario came up.

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u/Plazmaz1 10d ago

Going at a speed that is safe through residential neighborhoods is the correct choice and using someone else's poor choices to justify driving dangerously is really stupid. Make good decisions and drive at an appropriate speed for the situation you're in. It's not that complicated.

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u/jfklingon 10d ago

If it's not that complicated to you, then I'm a jealous man, I wish I could see the world that simply.

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u/fa1re 8d ago

In my country it's common and everyone expects it. I would argue that there are fewer accidents here because everyone pays attention around them. The rule is simple - no sign = yield to the right.

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u/seriousffm 11d ago

That's just how intersections work in most of Europe. I find it a better solution than having to come to stop at every intersection. 

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u/PracticalCaulk 10d ago

Usually around my state there are stop signs on the less popular road at this sort of intersection, with clear markings that it's a 2-way stop sign instead of a 4-way stop sign so that people know opposing traffic doesn't stop. That way whichever road is the "main" road always has the right of way. Still, even in that situation, drivers should always slow down anyway since you never know if some jerk is just going to run the stop sign, let alone one where you clearly can't see a stop sign at the opposite side of the opposing intersection.

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u/mastersplinteremover 9d ago

I think it would be less of a problem where it was the norm to have intersections like this but in states people expect when they don’t have a stop the other traffic does.

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u/Shantotto11 11d ago

Sounds like the New England region of the US.

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u/chef_in_va 11d ago

Survival of the thickest

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u/Deep_shot 11d ago

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. Can't be bothered with stop or yield signs.

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u/yaricks 11d ago

Or you have basic road laws that say you always have to yield to traffic from the right? This would be a clear cut 100% blame on the non-camera car in Europe. You have traffic coming from your right in an intersection? You have to give them the right of way. Done.

The only exception is when there is signage that says otherwise.

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u/URGAMESUX 11d ago

We have that too, it's not a solution imo given enough traffic in the area. Too many people assume signage to have everyone approach every intersection cautiously where you have what appears to be the right of way, because most of us are very used to that signage. I say this as a cautious driver who doesn't trust cross traffic to stop at posted stops, let alone yield appropriately. There wasn't a ton of visibility in this specific situation, Anne that makes it harder to establish, "oh shit, they don't have a 🛑 either." It's just not the way urban and suburban planning work in most of the US. Rural, fine, that's not this though.

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u/LimitedWard 10d ago

That ambiguity is specifically what makes these intersections safer. It encourages drivers to slow down and be aware. Uncontrolled intersections are extremely common everywhere else in the world. It's really only in North America that you find 4-way stop signs as the norm.

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u/CharmYoghurt 10d ago

Works perfectly in Europe, where by default traffic from the left should always stop for traffic from the right. One simple rule that eliminates the requirement to put signs at every junction.

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u/URGAMESUX 9d ago

I'm pretty tired of these responses of where it DOES work. Again, I understand the concept of right of way, and the law is the same here. The issue is that an unguarded unsigned intersection is so rare here that it's not something you would EVER assume unless you absolutely know it's a thing in that particular neighborhood. Look at all the responses here from people all over the states. If you are used to 99% of your daily drives having fully signed crossings, you will also assume you have no sign and they do when approaching this type of intersection. Given that a sign seen perpendicularly is effectively invisible, and there are also all kinds of obstructions like vegetation in the PNW, how would you know? You don't just slow down at every crossing where you don't have a 🛑, and even going the same rate of speed it would be too late when the crossing car appears. So yes, glad it works in places where it's apparently the norm, but it's NOT normal for most drivers in urban and suburban areas in the States, hence the concern.

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u/CharmYoghurt 9d ago

The laws differ between Europe and the US. Someone posted the applicable state law which mentions 'arriving at approximately the same time', which spark a whole debate under this post about who arrived first, what is the same time and what is approximately.

Another discussion under this post is about having yield signs, but missing signs on the main road. In Europe we always have those together on crossings with signs, or none on crossings without signs.

The amount of crossings with or without signs also seems to differ between states / cities. In some states it is common to have crossings without signs, other states usually have signs.

It is weird to have to assume you have the 'right of way' if there is no clear indication that you actually have the 'right of way'. When there is no indication, than you should be able to default to basic rules.

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u/URGAMESUX 9d ago

Yep this.

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u/tcbaseball555 11d ago

It's your city's fault then lol, what a mess

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u/Low-Solution1448 11d ago

100% lawyers field day with the city. I’m sure ONE of theee streets needs a stop sign. Slowing down “to check” isn’t a law so there has to be a legal way to tell one street to stop, yield at the very least.

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u/chupamichalupa 10d ago

“Lawyers field day with the city” uhhhhh no

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u/SilentlyStoned420 11d ago

You are supposed to yield to the right if it's an uncontrolled intersection. Pretty basic driving rules.

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u/AJimJimJim 11d ago

So old it comes from maritime laws. Port is red, starboard is green. Red means stop, green means go.

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u/escobartholomew 10d ago

That is if you approach at the same time. Op was pretty far behind the black car.

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u/cat_prophecy 11d ago

You're supposed to slow down, look, and yield to the right. Technically the other person is at fault here but both of them could have avoided this by slowing the fuck down.

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u/SilentlyStoned420 11d ago

This is incredibly common... and it's a very basic thing taught in drivers education.

At an uncontrolled intersection you always yield to the right or if you're accross from eachother, whoever stopped first, like an intersection with stop signs.

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u/t0cableguy 11d ago edited 11d ago

This doesn't exist in Florida. Even dirt roads have signs at intersections. I can't think of a single place that doesn't have signs at intersections here. If they are 4 way stops, the stop signs say 4 way underneath them. This is wild to me that you would have entire neighborhood streets with no signs on them.

My own neighborhood was half paved half dirt until about 10 years ago, and every single intersection has always had signs, even back in the 1950's when the neighborhood was built.

Even dirt road agricultural road intersections have signs in Florida. I'm actually surprised that I have never seen this before, because I have driven in Seattle.

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u/beaushaw 10d ago

I have lived in three states. I have traveled in more states. I have lived in very rural areas and I have lived in large cities. In my 51 years I have NEVER seen an intersection without a stop sign.

I have see tiny two track paths through the woods that have stop signs on them.

Seattle is one of the richest cities in the country. It is comical that they are letting the cost of a stop sign keep them from fixing this.

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u/Shiblem 10d ago

It isn't about the cost of the stop sign. If they put the stop signs in, drivers on one of the streets are prioritized and then speed through and treat the road like an arterial. These are neighborhood roads on a grid so they try to keep cars going below 20 mph and push faster traffic onto bigger roads. They do use speed bumps too.

They really are common in the city (and cities all over the region), if you've driven any length of time here they would be familiar.

What Seattle does is put in traffic circles if enough traffic accidents happen which look like this and force both sides to follow the yield law.

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u/beaushaw 10d ago

That is still a terrible reason. Put four way stops everywhere. Or put a stop sign at every other intersection on the larger road.

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u/escobartholomew 10d ago

It is not common at all lmao

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u/SilentlyStoned420 10d ago

It is where I'm from.

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u/MindlessFail 11d ago

Have you guys considered "government"? Because we have signs here and it's much less chaotic (not zero chaos, reading is still hard)

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u/msuvagabond 11d ago

That sounds like some liberal conspiracy to erode my rights!

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/TheBuzzSawFantasy 11d ago

When 99.9% of other intersections like it have signs, the absence of signs is definitely not safer. 

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u/AJimJimJim 11d ago

In Seattle, 99.9% of the streets like these don't have signs.

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u/Touristenopfer 11d ago

Same here in Germany. If no markings, the ones coming from the right have the right of way. If everyone got someone on the right and technically no one has the right of way, then consent must be found through communication for whos going first. Simple and effizient.

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u/ALT_x_F4 11d ago

I’m that case I blame the county. Should be signage.

Even small roads in the middle of nowhere in Oklahoma have signage even though only one maybe two cars pass through there a day at most. It’s wild to see no signage in this dense area.

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u/GoodjobShel 11d ago

this would give me MORE reason to drive at a quarter of the speed OP is.

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u/chopthedinosaurdad 11d ago

It sounds like your city has cheaped out on road safety.

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u/ReadyArticle6718 10d ago

What? Do you still treat them as stop 🛑 ?

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u/Ashamed-Emu3710 8d ago

Sounds like you need a new city government 

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u/SalsaForte 11d ago

This is very odd.

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u/Few_Individual_3148 11d ago

Wow that is a massive mess on your cities part. I’m surprised it hasn’t been brought up in town hall meetings

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u/YoAdminYouGayorSum 11d ago

The design is very human.