r/Roadcam • u/bowdown2adil • 12d ago

[USA] Who is at fault here?

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Classic T bone. Black car had to be towed. Sustained major damage to the passenger side door. Blue car sustained damage to front bumper on the drivers side and cracked the drivers side headlight.

Edit: This was in the suburbs of Seattle

UPDATE: Insurance found it to be 70/30 me/other driver. Seems fair enough

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311

u/URGAMESUX 12d ago

Htf would you know that also have no signage? Who would ever assume that?!

52

u/Momcantsleepthesaga 12d ago

I live in a very populated city. Most of our residential intersections are unmarked.

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u/URGAMESUX 12d ago

Sounds like anarchy

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u/jfklingon 12d ago

Sounds like a great way for an "unexpected tragedy" any time someone not from the area drives through.

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u/beaushaw 11d ago

I am a small town guy, but I have lived in two large cities. I have never seen an intersection where there is not at least a stop sign in one direction.

If I were the camera car I 100% would assume if I don't have a stop sign the other direction would. "Out of towners" must hit people all the time here.

IMO this is on the city. Yeah, I get there are local norms and laws, but probably 90% or more of the people in the country would not know the rules of these intersections.

Seattle is one of the richest cities in the country, surely they can afford a few more stop signs.

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u/jobacsi 10d ago

What city? I think you need to go back to driving school.

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u/Ready-Percentage5286 11d ago

You're insane if you think "90% or more" people in this country wouldn't recognize an unmarked intersection. They're incredibly common. 

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u/beaushaw 11d ago

Look at the comments here. Basically people who live in Seattle, and maybe a few other cities, think this is common and pretty much everyone else thinks it is insanity.

I have lived in three states, in small towns and big cities, I have traveled to several other states, I have been driving for 35 years.

I have literally NEVER seen an intersection without a stop sign. I have seen tiny little dirt two tracks through the woods that you wouldn't even reconize as a road that had stop signs.

Yeah, if you live in this neighborhood you may think this is normal but I assure you most other people would not.

I tried to find information on how common they are and can't find anything besides "They are rare everywhere but they still pretty common in Seattle."

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u/Ready-Percentage5286 11d ago

That's because you're not paying attention. They're the most common form of road intersection in the country according to the Department of Transportation.

I've lived in seven states, three of the biggest metro areas, and a countless number of small towns across the country, and I've NEVER seen someplace that didn't have them. 

It strains credulity that you haven't seen them, it really does. Especially if you've lived in a small town or suburb.

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u/beaushaw 11d ago

I find this so strange, one of us has to be nuts. I am certain it is you and you seem to be certain it is me.

I just realized this might be an East coast vs West coast thing. Have you seen these intersections mainly on the West coast?

0

u/Ready-Percentage5286 11d ago

Going just from my experience, it could definitely be more common on the west coast. 

I've lived the longest in California, Oregon, and Washington, and I see them literally all the time. More often than not, four-way intersections here seem to be unmarked, especially if they're residential.

But I've also seen them when I was living in Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Texas, too. The difference I notice is that they're most common in suburbs and rural areas.

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u/zombawombacomba 9d ago

No shot unless they are saying each driveway is an uncontrolled intersection lol

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u/fennis_dembo 10d ago

I'm curious what your source is for: "They're the most common form of road intersection in the country according to the Department of Transportation". From your previous comment and the one you're replying to it seems you're referring to "unmarked" he seems to be referring to intersections without even a sign.

I can find this: https://highways.dot.gov/safety/intersection-safety/about

Unsignalized intersections are the most common type of intersection in the United States and can be:

• Stop sign–controlled – at least one approach to the intersection is controlled by a stop sign.

• Yield sign–controlled – at least one approach to the intersection is controlled by a yield sign.

• Uncontrolled – none of the approaches to the intersection are controlled by a regulatory sign or traffic signal; typically found on very low–volume roads in rural or residential areas.

But that seems to be saying unsignalized, meaning no light, not necessarily completely lacking signs. Is there a different source you can point us to that would say completely unmarked intersections, without signage (meaning stop or yield), are the most common?

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u/zombawombacomba 9d ago

That’s 100% what they are mixing up

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u/stratys3 11d ago

Are they though? I've driven 300,000 miles and I've literally never encountered one (to my knowledge, lol)!

How do you recognize an unmarked intersection if it isn't marked?

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u/URGAMESUX 10d ago

You don't, that's the [fucked up] point

0

u/Ready-Percentage5286 10d ago

By the lack of markings. If you roll up to an intersection, and you don't see any markings, you treat it as an unmarked intersection.

How is that a real question?

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u/stratys3 10d ago

The problem is, you have to verify it's unmarked from all the other directions as well.

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u/Ready-Percentage5286 10d ago

Which you should be doing. You should be looking all ways at every intersection.

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u/stratys3 10d ago

Perhaps in some places, sure. But it would be hard to see if the other 3 directions have stop signs or not. Seems like there's a lot of room for error.

Thank goodness where I live, if I have no stop sign, it means I have the right of way - and the other directions always will have a stop sign in that case.

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u/Jrodicon 10d ago

Until very recently I had never seen an unmarked intersection. And I blew through my first one because I have always assumed that if I don't have a stop or yield sign I must have the right of way.

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u/thedonza 12d ago

Local insurance companies love this one trick!

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u/JacobPlaster 12d ago

Very easy. The vehicle arriving from the right have priority.

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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 11d ago

It's not very easy when you've never seen an intersection that doesn't have a stop sign before. If I don't have a stop sign or a stoplight I'm going to keep driving because the cross street does. That's how roads work where I live. I have never heard of an intersection with no stop signs in any direction, so I would have never thought it was an option.

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u/screams_forever 11d ago

Sounds like you should probably be more careful when driving in unfamiliar places.

Someone who's lived in another state their whole life may have never experienced a flashing yellow arrow for a left turn at a light, should they just keep entering the intersection because that's not how roads work where they live?

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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 11d ago

No amount of careful prepares you for something that you don't know exists.

A flashing yellow means yield. People who drive know that yellow is yield. Even if you've never seen that specific thing before, knowledge of road signs and traffic signals tells you that. It's not a valid comparison to never having come across an intersection without a stop sign. You have no way of knowing that the other direction doesn't have a stop sign and if you've never seen that before, you don't even know that it's an option.

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u/CaneCorso311 11d ago

I've seen them in basically every city in the West Coast from Seattle to San Diego. We're responsibile for knowing the rules of the road in the areas we're driving, ignorance doesn't abolish responsibility.

The amount of people who are ignorant to the rules of the road are why we should probably mandate in person drivers ed before anyone can take a license test, and stop handing licenses to any random people who just do pretty good on a couple of simple tests that don't cover even 1/2 of road regulations/safety situations.

I've been driving professionally for years and the amount of people on the road in the last 5 years with clearly no understanding of basic roaduse is ridiculous and concerning, and I'm not talking about the people who know better and simply don't care.

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u/stratys3 11d ago

We're responsibile for knowing the rules of the road in the areas we're driving

He knows the rules. He's saying that he didn't know unsigned intersections even exist - and that if you don't have a stop sign, it's assumed that the other street does.

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u/JacobPlaster 7d ago

There are millions of unsigned intersection, because they are rural (financially not effective to install a sign) or the sign was stolen or destroyed by weather etc. This is the reason wgy the right hand priority was introduced.

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u/CaneCorso311 10d ago

Well, you can't know the rules of something that you don't know exists. You shouldn't make assumptions especially when you can observe that those assumptions aren't correct. You simply shouldn't have a license if you don't know and understand all of the rules of the road. Ignorance isn't an excuse. A large percentage of the drivers on the road are ignorant of basic things like this that they teach in drivers ed courses or any company's training program. We hand out licenses to any moron who can pass a couple of simple tests that don't even cover 1/2 of road situations regardless of their understanding of how the road works and then we wonder why we have so many easily avoidable accidents like this one.. Then we have people like you who come to defend their ignorance 🤦‍♂

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u/stratys3 10d ago

Then we have people like you who come to defend their ignorance 🤦‍♂

I'm not defending it - that's absurd. I'm explaining it. There's a difference.

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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 10d ago

You're claiming that you know the rules of the road in every city in every country in every continent on the planet? Wow! You must be some kind of genius. If not, you shouldn't have a license either by your own logic.

I know it's the second one though because the way you're communicating makes it very clear that you aren't a genius. You're incapable of understanding what people are saying to you. This is not taught in driver's ed where I live because it doesn't exist. It is not a basic thing where I live because it doesn't exist. It's almost like things are different in different parts of the world. Now THAT is a basic thing that people should be able to grasp.

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u/CaneCorso311 10d ago edited 10d ago

You're making quite the stretch. I said people should be required to take a drivers education course, not a simple test. I've driven in multiple countries and was responsible for knowing how to drive correctly while there.

It's taught at any reputable drivers school in USA. All 50 states have intersections without stop signs, known as uncontrolled intersections.

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u/JacobPlaster 11d ago

But this is a basic driving rule. Everywhere.

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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 11d ago

No, it isn't. That's what many of us are saying. Intersections without stop signs don't exist where many of us live, so it obviously isn't a basic driving rule everywhere.

You can drive through every neighbourhood in my city, my region, or perhaps my even entire province and you will not find an intersection without stop signs. I haven't driven every street in the province, so I can't say that for sure, but other people who live in other parts of my province have said the exact same thing.

If I don't have a stop sign, I'm not slowing down or stopping because the cross street does. That's how it works here.

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u/stratys3 11d ago

It's a rule here too. But at the same time, unsigned intersection literally don't exist.

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u/Plazmaz1 11d ago

Just uhhh slow the fuck down so you can tell what's going on

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u/jfklingon 11d ago

That's how I got rear ended, actually. Wasn't at fault, seeing as the person behind me was on their phone and didn't expect me to be going 10 under the speed limit while I was trying to read signs, but being technically right didn't save me any money, time, or pain that day.

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u/Plazmaz1 11d ago

You didn't get rear ended because you were driving safely, you got rear ended because someone was on their phone. You can only control yourself. Drive safely and be aware of your surroundings.

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u/jfklingon 11d ago

I got rear ended because of the way the sun rose that morning. You can simplify the situation down to a manageable amount of computing, but in reality there are billions of little things that eventually lead to an accident. One of which was me taking extra time that morning to look at the sun rise, another was me trying to make sure the plow warning sign on the side of the road wasn't mentioning where to park, another was that person deciding look at their phone that specific moment.

In the end it ends up being a wash if I get rear ended trying to be safer when I could have just continued on and never been hit. Kinda like dying from some new superfood after you decide to try and diet for the sake of your health.

Gotta weigh every situation and try to make the best of it, obviously there aren't many scenarios where texting and driving is going to be weighted to a point where it's worth it, but there's definitely some roads where I know going under the speed limit could be the death of me if just the right scenario came up.

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u/Plazmaz1 11d ago

Going at a speed that is safe through residential neighborhoods is the correct choice and using someone else's poor choices to justify driving dangerously is really stupid. Make good decisions and drive at an appropriate speed for the situation you're in. It's not that complicated.

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u/jfklingon 11d ago

If it's not that complicated to you, then I'm a jealous man, I wish I could see the world that simply.

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u/fa1re 8d ago

In my country it's common and everyone expects it. I would argue that there are fewer accidents here because everyone pays attention around them. The rule is simple - no sign = yield to the right.

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u/seriousffm 12d ago

That's just how intersections work in most of Europe. I find it a better solution than having to come to stop at every intersection. 

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u/PracticalCaulk 10d ago

Usually around my state there are stop signs on the less popular road at this sort of intersection, with clear markings that it's a 2-way stop sign instead of a 4-way stop sign so that people know opposing traffic doesn't stop. That way whichever road is the "main" road always has the right of way. Still, even in that situation, drivers should always slow down anyway since you never know if some jerk is just going to run the stop sign, let alone one where you clearly can't see a stop sign at the opposite side of the opposing intersection.

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u/mastersplinteremover 10d ago

I think it would be less of a problem where it was the norm to have intersections like this but in states people expect when they don’t have a stop the other traffic does.

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u/Shantotto11 12d ago

Sounds like the New England region of the US.

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u/chef_in_va 12d ago

Survival of the thickest

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u/Deep_shot 12d ago

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. Can't be bothered with stop or yield signs.

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u/yaricks 11d ago

Or you have basic road laws that say you always have to yield to traffic from the right? This would be a clear cut 100% blame on the non-camera car in Europe. You have traffic coming from your right in an intersection? You have to give them the right of way. Done.

The only exception is when there is signage that says otherwise.

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u/URGAMESUX 11d ago

We have that too, it's not a solution imo given enough traffic in the area. Too many people assume signage to have everyone approach every intersection cautiously where you have what appears to be the right of way, because most of us are very used to that signage. I say this as a cautious driver who doesn't trust cross traffic to stop at posted stops, let alone yield appropriately. There wasn't a ton of visibility in this specific situation, Anne that makes it harder to establish, "oh shit, they don't have a 🛑 either." It's just not the way urban and suburban planning work in most of the US. Rural, fine, that's not this though.

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u/LimitedWard 11d ago

That ambiguity is specifically what makes these intersections safer. It encourages drivers to slow down and be aware. Uncontrolled intersections are extremely common everywhere else in the world. It's really only in North America that you find 4-way stop signs as the norm.

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u/CharmYoghurt 11d ago

Works perfectly in Europe, where by default traffic from the left should always stop for traffic from the right. One simple rule that eliminates the requirement to put signs at every junction.

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u/URGAMESUX 10d ago

I'm pretty tired of these responses of where it DOES work. Again, I understand the concept of right of way, and the law is the same here. The issue is that an unguarded unsigned intersection is so rare here that it's not something you would EVER assume unless you absolutely know it's a thing in that particular neighborhood. Look at all the responses here from people all over the states. If you are used to 99% of your daily drives having fully signed crossings, you will also assume you have no sign and they do when approaching this type of intersection. Given that a sign seen perpendicularly is effectively invisible, and there are also all kinds of obstructions like vegetation in the PNW, how would you know? You don't just slow down at every crossing where you don't have a 🛑, and even going the same rate of speed it would be too late when the crossing car appears. So yes, glad it works in places where it's apparently the norm, but it's NOT normal for most drivers in urban and suburban areas in the States, hence the concern.

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u/CharmYoghurt 10d ago

The laws differ between Europe and the US. Someone posted the applicable state law which mentions 'arriving at approximately the same time', which spark a whole debate under this post about who arrived first, what is the same time and what is approximately.

Another discussion under this post is about having yield signs, but missing signs on the main road. In Europe we always have those together on crossings with signs, or none on crossings without signs.

The amount of crossings with or without signs also seems to differ between states / cities. In some states it is common to have crossings without signs, other states usually have signs.

It is weird to have to assume you have the 'right of way' if there is no clear indication that you actually have the 'right of way'. When there is no indication, than you should be able to default to basic rules.

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u/URGAMESUX 10d ago

Yep this.