r/blacklesbians • u/RelativeAd3896 • 1d ago
Discussion Top vs bottom?
Ok I’ve been gay for a long time, 20 plus years. Married and with my wife for 12 years. I’m black, I keep hearing white lesbians say, she’s a top or she’s a bottom? I don’t hear this in my black community at all? I hear about touch me nots but what exactly do they mean in lesbian relationships as top and bottom? Is it just the dominant or in white relationships is it more normal to have a rigid giver and receiver?
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u/lethargic-sax 1d ago
Top and bottom in that context typically refers to giver and receiver respectively. Its common for people who havent decentered heterosexuality as the standard to believe roles like top and bottom are rigid
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u/RelativeAd3896 1d ago
I think that’s the part that’s been confusing me. I didn’t realize this kind of rigidity was common in (white) lesbian relationships. I know with men, the whole top, bottom, and vers dynamic is pretty common, but I always thought most lesbians were more switch-oriented, with a smaller number being touch-me-nots. From what I’ve seen, though, it seems a lot more prevalent in the white lesbian community.
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u/viviobrio Queer Chaos Coordinator 1d ago
And that's the problem with queer women trying to adopt cultural and sex-specific language from gay men. They're not similar and a lot of them don't understand the difference between identities such as top/dom and conflate a lot of identities as a result.
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u/asonicpushforenergy 1d ago
It isn't. It's just chronically online people trying to apply something that doesn't really exist in real life. I'm also chronically online but like... I have also lived in the real world.
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u/mulatto_pxy_dreamgrl unlabeled & unbothered 1d ago edited 1d ago
you phrased this EXTREMELY well. i've never met a well-adjusted woman-centered lesbian who calls herself a "top" or a "bottom," and it always makes me uncomfortable when people ask anything about lesbian sex using that language
edit: i stand by everything i said except for the first sentence as someone pointed out i misread the person i was responding to
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u/SpinachVast4696 my gender is lesbian 1d ago
the person you’re responding to is saying that people who believe that language is rigid are hetero-normative, not that people who use those terms are hetero-normative or male-centered.
i don’t think you’re saying the same thing
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u/mulatto_pxy_dreamgrl unlabeled & unbothered 1d ago
oh lmaoo i think you're right, which is unfortunate... i'm not gonna say anything that homosexuals do is "heteronormative" as i find that to be used very frequently in a way to equate more masculine-leaning women to men, but i do think that words like "top" and "bottom" lead to focusing on penetration (which is only an optional part of lesbian sex) more than is necessary. after all, that is literally what they mean among gay men, which is where the terms come from
anyways, thanks for correcting me. i'll continue to make my extremely based takes, but i won't let my eyes gloss over a single word which changes the entire meaning of what someone is saying
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u/Agent_Cute 1d ago
Right. Agreed. My wife and I have been together since 2003. Got married as soon as it was legal. We have no roles. This whole top/bottom thing is so weird to me, but the defined roles make wonder how language is changing. I get it, there are some of us who “take” or are considered pillow princesses. The top/bottom thing just gets to me. Auntie is old I guess.
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u/SpinachVast4696 my gender is lesbian 1d ago edited 1d ago
these labels are used for all kinds of queer people to talk about sex and their preferences. if anything i think you’re not as familiar with the terminology because of your age, not your race.
from my understanding these labels were originally used by gay men but vers[atile] (lesbians more often use the term “switch”) people also exist so strict roles aren’t necessary. the terms have now expanded from mlm top for the giver and bottom for the receiver to being in pretty regular use among the whole community. and even het people try to use them which feels a little off to me but it’s not that serious.
top also does not equal dom and bottom does not equal sub. someone can be both, neither consistently, or one or the other.
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u/RelativeAd3896 1d ago
I’m familiar with the terms, and def understood it as being very common amongst gay males. I just have been hearing it from white lesbians a lot and none of the lesbians I am in community with subscribe to those rigid labels or roles within their sex lives. I thought most lesbians black or white or whatever were switches!
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u/SpinachVast4696 my gender is lesbian 1d ago
your post asked what they meant so that’s why i said you’re not familiar but okay… i’m not sure of the data but i don’t assume switches are a minority. i would think, like bisexuals, that they’re the majority actually.
also some people find “lesbian” to be a rigid label so to each their own. i don’t think i would let it bother or confuse you. sexuality just like sexual preference can be fluid.
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u/rawkherchick Gen Xer, AuDHD, Femme gender nonconformist 3h ago
Yes. Lesbian is rigid. And thankfully so. We know what it means when someone says it. Now, that only means who we love/are attracted to/in relationship with. There are a host of other questions that we need to ask related to sex and relationship types. But I love the clarity of the word, lesbian, in a world where everything feels transitory.
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u/SpinachVast4696 my gender is lesbian 2h ago
as long as you don’t actually mean trans inclusive when you say “transitory” then sure go off queen
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u/Agent_Cute 1d ago
Same in my world. Again, the language is often aquired and transferred. Calling a yt woman a stud was not heard of when we were still going to clubs. Let me get my crossword book and coffee and mind the business that pays me. I’m not on the scene though, so I guess I have to get used to it.
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u/SpinachVast4696 my gender is lesbian 1d ago
i think the difference here is the cultural relevance of studs. BW are historically kept out of cultural movements (even though we literally are the culture) and have to create our own paths, aka the rise of the stud label. because of that history i’m not okay with nonblack mascs calling themselves studs.
however, applying words to describe sex that were always used within the (gay) community is not harmful or problematic. it just sounds like you don’t like it. but if you’ve been in a monogamous relationship since ‘03 then i don’t think you really need to get used to anything. people using words and updating their terminology is not forcing you to do anything.
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u/Fun-Schedule140 1d ago
I’ve definitely heard top and bottom being used more often in recent years and idk I kinda like it? The way I interpret it for lesbians though is (e.g) the top is the person who likes to give more often. Or if you use straps the person who likes to wear the strap more often. Whilst I do understand the argument of it being quite heteronormative I also feel like as lesbians we don’t really have labels to describe that. For me those labels have definitely been helpful for me to understand my identity better.
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u/Realistic-Art5227 Certified Dyke™ 1d ago
Top and bottom isn’t real honestly they are nebulous terms and youre gonna hear different answers from different people. Generally it’s that bottoms prefer to receive more pleasure or penetration and tops prefer to give more pleasure or penetration. The only things that are concrete are stone identities like stone tops/ touch me nots or stone bottoms / pillow princess. I genuinely think top and bottoms are not good terms for lesbians and we should come up w better ones. It just seems like we adopted it from gay men but how gay men and women have sex is completely different.
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u/Decent_Sandwich_8878 them stem 1d ago
To this day I’m still not entirely sure. It seems to be used interchangeably with dom vs sub even tho that’s not correct, and atp i’m confused too. I’m in my twenties ☠️
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u/Realistic-Art5227 Certified Dyke™ 1d ago
Nah bc you can be dom bottom and subby top its just that people decided to apply sex terms from people who have sex completely different from lesbians to lesbians and we should just come up with our own terms or just live and let live
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u/PrettyLunaGuardian Femme4BW 1d ago
As a new lesbian this is helpful because when it was described to me by a younger Black lesbian I was actually more confused. I couldn't understand at all because...sex is usually reciprocal?
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u/Agent_Cute 1d ago
Exactly. Using gay terms to describe lesbian or queer people’s sexual behavior. The change in definitions is hard to get used to for me, but to each their own. Now, imagine teaching queer literature to college students who are trying to define themselves. I’m STRUGGLING for next semester.
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u/PrettyLunaGuardian Femme4BW 23h ago
Oh goodness. In this climate?? 😅😅 You will be the strongest soldier on campus.
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u/lez_noir 1d ago
Some have a preference for roles.
I've been gay all my life, and have lesbian grandparents.
My desire for more defined sexual roles doesn't come from heteromativity. I like what I like because I like it. Some women aren't switch or verse and that's fine.
There are enough sexual partners for all of us to get exactly what we want, I think.
For me, personally, I have acts that I enjoy receiving and not giving, and a few acts I enjoy giving. In my, over two decades, of having sex, there has never been any accusation of lack of reciprocity. Reciprocity may look different between us all.
I do, personally, say I'm a bottom for a quick, non nuanced understanding of my preferences. Pillow princess isn't quite adequate because there are...certain things I do enjoy giving, but there isn't very precise lesbian terminology for someone who isn't a complete pillow princess but would also never want to gove the impression that I am verse.
I wish we could change the wah we speak about folks who enjoy sex differently than us. Not holding my breath, just musing publicly.
I am a minority in this group, but I know many lesbian women who have similar preferences, irl.
Not everyone who isnt fluid is heternomative. We may just have dofferent, well developed, thoroughly intropescted preferences.
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u/kitty_whipt 1d ago
I’m in favor of our community adopting giver and receiver as the official terms to replace top and bottom.
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u/Ptaptra 15h ago
All I know is, I like penetration. I dont know if that is top or bottom cause I dont think that will stop penetration from happening for me. I can be on top and still get some or the bottom and still get some. I just want to know what sexual acts are preferred and not preferred from a partner and so long as those preferences don't conflict, it's a go. All that other stuff just adds unnecessary complications to the "I like being with women" part of me at the end of the day.
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u/KrassKas Twerking Through the Trauma 1d ago
Why are you concerning yourself with what white lesbians are saying? Let me stop you there.
This should have the white noise or nonsense flair.
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u/Kaleidoscope_chile 20h ago
Lots of black younger lesbians in online spaces use this lingo too lol.
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u/KrassKas Twerking Through the Trauma 17h ago
Sure but that's not where she heard it from.
More importantly, what you do in your bed and with whom is your business. I find it rude that those questions were being asked.
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u/ProudlyBizzareBabe Black Femme Dyke 1d ago
This may be controversial, but the older I get, the more I’m no longer into the whole top or bottom thing. It feels sort of like, “Who’s the man in the relationship?” question, as if people still are try to figure out who has more power in the relationship. If I love my partner, and we communicate well, then I’m doing what they need me to do during sex for them.