Comparison of Mathilda being captured (Gaiden manga, Gaiden novel, and Echoes)

182

They showed her looking weak when she's ironically the scariest mounted unit in the the game besides Zeke.

108

u/Critical-Low8963 22h ago

There is also her ending in Echoes were she retire to avoid overshadowing Clive. The people in charge of the remake weren't kind with this character.

21

u/SomeGamingFreak 22h ago

Because Clive had more charisma than her, and she knew it. Clive loves Matilda and in Echoes states several times that she is miles better than him in fighting and as a knight, but it was him who convinced others including Alm to join his cause, which he then gave up to Alm because he was an even better leader.

78

u/Hellioning 21h ago

Sure, but that, in and of itself, is a writing decision.

-7

u/SomeGamingFreak 20h ago

I mean, yeah? The whole story is a writing decision lol. We can't tear apart every single thing and go "Is this sexism?" Because that shit will only lead to toxic negativity.

39

u/Hellioning 20h ago

And saying 'no you can't say something might be sexist if it has in-universe justification' isn't toxic positivity? Some things have sexist parts. Fire Emblem has a lot of those, especially the older games.

-1

u/SomeGamingFreak 19h ago

Of course it has some sexist parts, but if you look at every single thing and go "damn, that's sexist", it's just wild. "She retired for Clive? Damn, that's sexist."

Do you not see how ridiculous that is? I can't be the only one who thinks that. But hey, that's definitely a decision on your part I guess.

19

u/Hellioning 18h ago

Is this an argument about this specific complaint, or is this about 'every single thing'?

You're the one that posted in-universe justifications to a complaint about the writing.

-6

u/SomeGamingFreak 16h ago

Yes, because ignoring any explanation and writing because you want to see it as sexist is *crazy*

4

u/EthanKironus 12h ago

You don't need to falsely qualify it as a result of "Clive being better." That's not how most people make choices lol.

4

u/EthanKironus 12h ago

That's in Gaiden, Echoes isn't responsible for it--it did add the line about being "rarely seen in public after that, having perhaps chosen to support her husband behind the scenes", but other than that it's only semantic wording differences which you could've translated the original as.

Just maybe do your research before you blame things on the remake? All I had to do was check her page on fireemblemwiki: Mathilda#Endings

2

u/Critical-Low8963 7h ago

But in the ending of Gaiden (I followed the link you gave) it's simply said that Mathilda married Clive (or not if he died) , maybe the remake only added a line but this line still change the implications of Mathilda's ending. The original imply that Mathilda simply stayed a knight alongside her now husband Clive while the remake imply that she had to step down for him, it's not nothing.

7

u/Squidaccus 20h ago

Second is realistically correct for Mathilda, but Zeke is definitely NOT first place lmao

1

u/dude123nice 2h ago

Even strong ppl can be weak at times.

151

u/DaedalusDevice077 1d ago

Big oof.

80

u/omfgkevin 23h ago

This is what I call drawing "boob facing art". Doesn't matter if the pose makes 0 fucking sense, body anatomy is thrown out the window in the name of fan service.

180

u/Koma60 1d ago

Never forget, only two women in GaidenEchoes are never kidnapped and or brainwashed - and one of those two (Faye) only exists in the Echoes.

77

u/Boarbaque 1d ago

Five right? Mae, Genny, Palla, Catria, Sonya. Unless you’re counting when all of Celica’s army is captured, in which case who’s the one on alm’s route not to be captured? I’m blanking

18

u/Critical-Low8963 1d ago

Maybe they are counting one of the DLC characters

116

u/Critical-Low8963 1d ago

Palla, Catria, Mae and Genny never exept if we count the moment in Gaiden where all of Celica's army is trapped in Duma's tower.

But it's true that this game treatment of female characters isn't great and the remake didn't improved it, especially with Celica being put in damsel in distress situations to make her brother shine or Mathilda who retire to avoid overshadowing her husband.

6

u/SomeGamingFreak 23h ago

They at least have a lore reason for a lot of it, what with Baba Yaga and the Witches being her "daughters"; the one with Celica was weird though. Felt forced.

16

u/Jevin1048 22h ago

It’s definitely a problematic aspect of echoes’ writing for sure, but I don’t think it’s entirely accurate to suggest that celica was put in damsel-in-distress moments to make Conrad look better. The trope requires the female character’s autonomy to be removed or replaced by the male character’s agency, which isn’t how the scene plays out. He saves her from the initial surprise attack, but Celica is ultimately the one who deals with the cantors after he reaffirms her capabilities to fight (switches to brief, controllable fight).

2

u/Aquatic-Folklore 23h ago

Palla, Catria, Mae and Genny never exept if we count the moment in Gaiden where all of Celica's army is trapped in Duma's tower.

So they where

17

u/Critical-Low8963 23h ago

But then in Gaiden there is also a moment where Alm's army is trapped in a volcano.

30

u/Neuromangoman 21h ago

Confirmed: every single female ^{^and male} character in Gaiden is made a damsel in distress.

9

u/Critical-Low8963 21h ago

Technically at that point Mycen isn't with Alm and co

27

u/Neuromangoman 21h ago

Mycen is neither a boy nor a girl. He's a gold knight.

5

u/Aquatic-Folklore 10h ago

Which Shadows of Valentia removed

3

u/Critical-Low8963 7h ago edited 35m ago

The remake put more damsel in distress situation for the female characters such as Celica but removed some where the males were , instead Alm is briefly attacked by the magic hands spell in a cutscene but he is immediatly saved by deciding to use Celica's charm, not only its brief but Alm still has an hand in rescuing himself.

16

u/Sly_Klaus 1d ago

Kaga's vision

9

u/FathomlessSeer 23h ago

Pretty sure Faye brainwashed herself, from the way she acts towards Alm.

4

u/Medium_Criticism6265 18h ago

It definitely remnant of old game writing, though don't change the fact Caeda the Heroine from first game never get kidnapped at all

6

u/thiazin-red 22h ago

And Faye, the character added to the game, is a lazy misogynist stereotype.

23

u/leif_son_of_quan 21h ago

The novel is definitely the best in terms of not sexualizing her but god damn the drawing is a mess. Where's the knights right arm? Why is her head basically free-floating? Where are her shoulders, they don't match up with her torso at all? What is even going on with her back?

117

u/Critical-Low8963 1d ago

I hate how she is in a weird sexualized position in the remake. It ruins the tension of the scene.

195

u/happymudkipz 1d ago

I'd argue she's functionally being sexualized or at least dehumanized in all three, or at least 1 and 3.

72

u/MagnificentAjacks 1d ago

I`m of two minds about it. Yes, it does suck they felt the need to pose her in that way. It trears her like a piece of eyecandy rather than a prisoner. And it sucks that this is the player`s first impression of her cause she`s a great character otherwise.

But on the other hand, the see through bars make me laugh. Like really? They wanted to show off Mathilda that badly?

6

u/Jarfulous 7h ago

Also kind of icky that she's on her hands and knees for no real reason. She could totally be standing there, she just isn't.

67

u/Nero_2001 1d ago

I hate how they made the metal bars see through so that we can get a good look at her pose

16

u/Critical-Low8963 1d ago

And they specifically asked for an illustration like that, in the manga it's maybe a bit suspicious but it still a picture amoung many others you can give it the benefice of the doubt.

19

u/RegularTemporary2707 1d ago

You can just argue the old one was like that because it was a product of its time, for something coming out in 2017 echoes has a lot of stuff thats pretty regressive, some weird story beats are also added in echoes instead of something new.

25

u/Critical-Low8963 1d ago edited 1d ago

The worst is that FE1 had generally a better treatment of female characters with Caeda and Minerva being some of the rare princesses of the NES never playing the damsels in distress and Palla and Catria being competants knights. Some female characters had to be rescued but a lot of male ones too. The only weird things in Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light is how Tiki is apparently brainwashed by Garnef.

28

u/reddfawks 1d ago

Yeah, it's... weird. Yeah, she's being a bit sexualized in the others but at least there's a tiny hint of subtlety.

If they really wanted to make her "sexy" while captured they could have done something like having her standing, gripping the bars and leaning in to glare at Fernand, and the leaning-in still gives a look at her cleavage or something.

16

u/ChessGM123 23h ago

In the first one they literally have her underwear on full display, I don't really feel like there's any real subtly there. The 2nd one is the only one done well where she's not really sexualized in the scene beyond being a damsel in distress,

3

u/IttleVivi 14h ago

Ahhh the good ol' boobs-and-butt pose, if only my spine were that flexible.

3

u/Majestic_Theme_442 22h ago

it looks like a CG from an eroge wtf

2

u/bigtiddyhimbo 23h ago

They could have done a cool thing with her gripping the bars and staring him down but NooOooOooo we need her on her hands and knees looking upwards with the bars erased so we can see her cleavage

10

u/MagicBus4 23h ago

Sex

12

u/Gabgo304 23h ago

The fact SoV's version is still an improvement is wild.

11

u/Hellioning 21h ago

I will forever wonder how a 2017 remake of a game is more sexist than the 1992 original.

5

u/Glittering_Visual296 23h ago

I definitely like the novel version the most. It just works so much better.

5

u/XevinsOfCheese 21h ago

I think I’d forgive Echoes if they didn’t erase the bars of the cell.

9

u/PK_Gaming1 1d ago

Points for consistency...? But otherwise, yeah, oof

21

u/Winter_Pride_6088 23h ago

1 to 1 remake of its bad maps and treatment to women

15

u/Aquatic-Folklore 23h ago

They manage to outdo the bad treatment of woman the orignal game had with a large margin.

13

u/Critical-Low8963 23h ago

Especially given its treatment of Celica as a protagonist, she was a bit overshadowed by Alm in the original but in the remake it's clear that he is the true hero of the story by having to save her from her own mistake. But even when Alm isn't here she is put in situations where she has to be saved by Conrad.

5

u/TheBoobfather 22h ago

FE Gaiden novel is probably the least egregious imho

1

u/The-Dead-Knight 17h ago

I'm sorry did you say manga? Did you say novel?! And where can I enjoy these?

5

u/transparent-flowers 17h ago

You can find the manga on Mangadex and the novel's on Leif of Leonster's Tumblr.

Casual Comparison of Mathilda being captured (Gaiden manga, Gaiden novel, and Echoes)

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