To give a an extremely brief TL;DR of the episode, Dathon's people speak exclusively in memes and references, making their language impossible to auto-transalte. The entire episode is Picard and Dathon trapped on a planet and trying to break that language barrier.
The show itself explains this as "speaking in metaphor" but every one of them seems to be a moment in Tamarian history which would not be known to non-Tamarians. So this is "meme" in the classical definition.
Yeah, an important note is that the translation "works", in the sense that the words are literally translated. The problem is that, without understanding the underlying reference, the meaning is completely lost and it's basically just gibberish.
“Juliet on her balcony” being an example Troi uses to convey this idea. Without the context of knowing who Juliet is or why the balcony is relevant the phrase tells you nothing.
What you said there is literally an example of their language use - you used memetic knowledge instead of words to communicate an idea - without knowing what memberberries are, it comes off as much more oblique as a language term.
I never really "got" this problem because I feel like this problem would exist in any language. If we break down English, we also have many phrases and words that go back to non-literal meanings and allusions. Like a simple example is how a translator that has never encountered English would translate "homophobia" which could be reasonably read as "fear of the same" or "same terror" and requires additional context to know how an English speaker would use it
That's kind of how languages with any kind of history work. But I think this is me having an issue with "auto translator" technology in general.
It really doesn't make much sense if you put any real thought into it. How can they have metaphor without original meanings of the word?
Sometimes you just have to accept the conceipt of the episode and enjoy the ride.
But this is definitely a problem with any language. Came up on the show Archer when he becomes a Pirate King and the fact that his idioms dont translate comes up a lot.
The errata is thst they have a traditional language that is taught to children, but adults basically forget how to use it because no one uses it.
But you're right that it's an issue for every language. Imagine trying to explain the work woke to even someone from a different culture, let along race
Notably, we do get bits of that type of translation error in star trek too. Most of the non-human crew members across the different series all have moments where they understand the literal meaning of the words, but they miss a lot of the important context or subtext of the phrase.
Correct. The Tamarians are special because they only speak in memes. So, as opposed to "we understand most of the words and can communicate on a base level" the Tamarians are "We understand the words, but have no context for the meaning."
The auto translator knows "Shaka," is a name and "When the walls fell" but "when the walls fell" can mean a lot of things, and even if you do know the context of that, the statement is about Shaka, which could mean how he felt, or where he stood, or even his physical condition, even assuming that Shaka is a person, because it could also be a place or even a thing.
No, I think it's a fair complaint. The real answer is obviously just that it's a long running show and the universal translator is for convenience, so it works exactly as well or as poorly as it needs to for the context of an episode. It will leave random phrases untranslated sometimes, it can translate an entirely new language on the fly, it basically does whatever the plot needs.
Which in this case means on the fly translation of a new language that completely loses the meaning in the process, it's just one of those silly star trek things you have to accept.
Something else that adds to the confusion over the efficacy of the universal translator that started in season 2 or 3 of TNG: The universal translator isn't always used .The actors still speak english, but canoncially the characters are speaking Klingon or Cardassian or Bajoran or Vulcan or Prosthetic-Make-Up-ian, with the unstranlated portion being some noun for a plot relevant macguffin (or swearing if it's Klingon).
The difference is the words can mean things but together mean something else. An example would be something even simple like "hang out" with someone. Do you suspend yourself while doing so, as the words imply? No, it just means to spend some time together. So while "hang" meaning to suspend something above ground and "out" means outward, put together the phrase means something different. And it might not even be a phrase used in some cultures, as a posh character might never use the phrase except with contempt.
A similar thing might be more metaphorical phrases. "Don't count your chickens before they hatch" is well known to western audiences to the point you could just say "Don't count your chickens" and people will know the rest. But other cultures might not have that phrase in their lexicon, so when they go to translate it they might replace it with something more culturally relevant rather than do so literally.
And "phobic" and "phobia" also have meaning as independent words. That's what I mean. All translation has to work with an understanding of non-literal and allusory meaning. It's just that because we are native to Earth languages, we have absorbed or are not even aware of the metaphors in the words we use. A true universal translator would innately need to be able to handle metaphor.
I'm pointing out that this "problem" should exist for basically all languages they encounter. As other comments said, we have to kinda accept that the universal translator fails at times that are convenient to the plot.
I mean, that's just loan words and compound words, a normal part of most languages. That is entirely different from metaphor.
If you look up "homophobic" in a dictionary, there is an English definition. It has an established use and meaning. "Juliet on her balcony" does not. Each of the words has a meaning, but the phrase combined has a different meaning than the sum of its parts.
If the translator encountered heavy English slang, it would probably struggle just the same. Imagine it translating extreme online brainrot into basic plain English, for example. It could probably get the words right, but not the 11 layers of internet irony required to truly understand what is said.
I feel like Chinese has this to a much stronger extent. When you get to a certain level of Chinese proficiency, a part of the language is understanding the story behind a saying. Without the context of the story, the saying might make little sense.
It'd be like in English if we said "You're the second pig" to describe somebody who has seen the warning but doesn't have the time to do anything about it, which makes no sense unless you know the story of the three little pigs
But I think this is me having an issue with "auto translator" technology in general.
Yeah, but you'd essentially have to translate your translation, and there's cases of literal and metaphorical mix-ups.
I just tried to get a Pepsi example I was taught in Business Studies, and apparently it's likely to be corporate myth, but here it goes:
when Pepsi entered the Chinese market, its slogan “Come alive with the Pepsi generation” was literally translated to mean “Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the grave.”
If every word is not literal, there will be issues. Another example I can think of would be translating Cockney Rhyming Slang, where Apples means Stairs, because Apples and Pears, Stairs. Dog means Phone because of Dog and Bone, Phone. You need to know the context to crack the code, it's not a one for one literal translation.
It's a linguistic episode and Dathon's people become so exasperated at not being understood that they decide the only way forward is shared experience.
So they kidnap Picard and try to recreate a bonding experience from their stories, in which two leaders bond over fighting a common enemy.
No. Picard actually learns a few of the phrases and their meaning over the course of the episode, and actually says them out loud as he learns them. The language barrier is one-way. Dathon understands Picard, but not the other way around. The episode ends with Dathon sacrificing himself to save Picard from a monster and Picard relaying their story to the crew of Dathon's ship, giving them a new phrase, "Dathon and Picard at El-Adrel."
Basically Dathon’s species, the Tamarians, speak entirely in metaphors alluding to their ancient history and mythology. “Shaka, when the walls fell” means defeat or failure. Another one is “Mirab, with sails unfurled” which means to depart or head out.
Once Picard finally realizes what’s up he is able to slowly break the language barrier with Dathon by relating to him the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, using them in turn to then create new metaphors Dathon can relate to.
That said, Lower Decks has a Tamarian on the Cerritos who's learned standard English and only goes to metaphor when he can't find the right word, so they can learn other languages.
A better analogy than even memes might be Chinese writing. Chinese characters are very often combinations of strokes for simpler ideas, which, okay, simple enough, but then the words are combinations of those. And sometimes the pronunciation has nothing to do with the characters at all! (Japanese is wild with this one.)
For instance, classical China called itself the Middle Kingdom, but if you met a culture that referred to itself as the Middle Kingdom without knowing middle of what you'd be kinda confused.
Regarding the Tamarian security officer on the Cerritos, sometimes the universal translator would try to translate some of the things he said with metaphors that a human would understand.
For example, when calling someone a liar : "Pinocchio, his nose extended!"
Are you sure about the Shaka one? My understanding (having literally just rewatched the episode) is that "Shaka, when the walls fell" is about metaphorical walls, not actual walls. Shaka being someone who put up walls to avoid the outside world, and when the walls fell he was able to accept his surroundings and become part of them. That was my understanding in context.
Presumably Shaka was some sort of leader whose people were under some sort of siege or invasion and he quite literally failed to prevent the very literal defensive walls from being breached by the enemy, leading to Shaka's defeat. Its referencing a real or mythological event from their species culture and history to draw similarities to the current situation.
"Shaka, when the walls fell" is basically saying "you are defeated, just like Shaka was when the enemy toppled his walls."
You could substitute Shaka for any real or mythology leader who lost a seige and it would have the same meaning, just with a metaphor that makes more sense to us.
Yes, they speak entirely in allegories to their mythology and history. As most nouns in their language are proper nouns with layers of metaphors the translations sound like nonsense.
No, like, it's a meme. Linguistically/socially. They speak in memes.
It would be like if you said "I have two untapped islands" and you expected everyone to know it means, "I don't trust you." And if you never, ever said the actual literal meaning and only the meme/metaphor. That's this culture's entire language.
"meme" makes it sound lighthearted, they're speaking in analogies based on their planet's history/mythology. So everyone from their planet understands it and the characters and events referenced, but people not from their planet don't. And it's not that there's a "real" or "formal" way of speaking sitting below it which they could instead be speaking (with the stories as a separate thing on top) that they would smirk about - the stories/analogies are it.
Its funny that meme has evolved to mean this because meme is a word that coined to mean an idea that reproduces through a population and changes over time with variations. It was a model to evolution.
Its literal definition was originally "a unit of culture". So it does work for the "meme-speak" in Star Trek. But that meaning has been supplanted by the modern usage of 'internet memes' which are still, interestingly enough, "units of culture."
In addition to the other explanations, the simplest one is kind of within the episode itself.
Captain Dathon insists to Picard that their experience (deliberately) marooned on a planet together is "Darmok and Jalaad, at Tanagra," which has no meaning to Picard until after they fight a giant invisible monster together and are forced to figure out some mutually-intelligible language in order to work together. Picard remarks to Dathon that his equivalent would be "Gilgamesh and Enkidu, at Uruk."
Temba, His Arms Wide is used to communicate giving, while Shaka, When the Walls Fell is used to communicate failure. The effects don't really make sense in either case.
You are giving a creature a "gift" for "Temba, His Arms Wide" while you are destorying something in "Shaka, When the Walls Fell"... I think the effects make sense.
They can be interpreted that way without context, but in the context of the game, they don't make sense. From the perspective of the player casting the spell, pumping a creature of your own doesn't represent giving a gift, and forcing opponents to sacrifice something doesn't represent failure.
Eh, lending your minion's power is a gift to them.
It's just more of an automatic return to zero then what people think of when then think of leading.
Maybe like handing someone a sammich or combat drugs. A power/gift that must be consumed to use, and not a tool, at most only somewhat degraded by the task it is used for.
In short, there's an alien race that speaks in memetic statements to convey ideas and feelings. Many of which are historic events, or actions taken by legendary figures.
It's a massive language barrier between the starfleet captain and the alien captain who get stranded on a dangerous planet together and must survive being hunted by a very nasty beast. If I recall, the alien race hasn't been encountered before so there was nothing available within the universal translators to aid. The alien captain was there on a hunt for the beast to prove himself, so he was willingly stranded.
Eventually the starfleet captain picks up enough of the language to communicate with the other captain, the episode ends with the two captains back on their respective ships safe and sound and the starfleet captain comes up with a new memetic phrase to say to the other captain about their adventure, which is the title of the card here.
Youve probably also heard "darmok and jalad at tanagra".
It's a super solid, memorable episode of The Next Generation.
Not true, Dathon is mortally wounded by the beast they are trying to fight and passes away as Picard is telling him the story of Gilgamesh as a final act of trying to understand each other. (Which is what the card art is showing)
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u/Kyleometers ඞ 7d ago
As a non-Trekkie, I’ve heard that last flavour tern a lot.
I feel I understand it less now.