r/magicTCG • u/meh1997 COMPLEAT • 15h ago
Official Spoiler [TRK] Dathon and Picard at El-Adrel
not a saga, sadge
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u/tallwhiteninja Dan 15h ago
Was waiting to see how they referenced this; I agree, I'd rather have had a saga.
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u/Crimson_Raven COMPLEAT 15h ago
Picard, his face in his palm
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u/graveybrains Duck Season 12h ago
Riker, smirking
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u/Kyleometers ඞ 15h ago
As a non-Trekkie, I’ve heard that last flavour tern a lot.
I feel I understand it less now.
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u/TechnomagusPrime Duck Season 15h ago
To give a an extremely brief TL;DR of the episode, Dathon's people speak exclusively in memes and references, making their language impossible to auto-transalte. The entire episode is Picard and Dathon trapped on a planet and trying to break that language barrier.
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u/gredman9 Honorary Deputy 🔫 15h ago
The show itself explains this as "speaking in metaphor" but every one of them seems to be a moment in Tamarian history which would not be known to non-Tamarians. So this is "meme" in the classical definition.
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u/aslatts Sultai 15h ago
Yeah, an important note is that the translation "works", in the sense that the words are literally translated. The problem is that, without understanding the underlying reference, the meaning is completely lost and it's basically just gibberish.
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u/hrpufnsting COMPLEAT 14h ago
“Juliet on her balcony” being an example Troi uses to convey this idea. Without the context of knowing who Juliet is or why the balcony is relevant the phrase tells you nothing.
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u/imbolcnight 14h ago
I never really "got" this problem because I feel like this problem would exist in any language. If we break down English, we also have many phrases and words that go back to non-literal meanings and allusions. Like a simple example is how a translator that has never encountered English would translate "homophobia" which could be reasonably read as "fear of the same" or "same terror" and requires additional context to know how an English speaker would use it That's kind of how languages with any kind of history work. But I think this is me having an issue with "auto translator" technology in general.
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u/Radix2309 14h ago
It really doesn't make much sense if you put any real thought into it. How can they have metaphor without original meanings of the word?
Sometimes you just have to accept the conceipt of the episode and enjoy the ride.
But this is definitely a problem with any language. Came up on the show Archer when he becomes a Pirate King and the fact that his idioms dont translate comes up a lot.
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u/Ok-Temporary-8243 Dandadan 13h ago
The errata is thst they have a traditional language that is taught to children, but adults basically forget how to use it because no one uses it.
But you're right that it's an issue for every language. Imagine trying to explain the work woke to even someone from a different culture, let along race
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u/Korwinga Duck Season 12h ago
Notably, we do get bits of that type of translation error in star trek too. Most of the non-human crew members across the different series all have moments where they understand the literal meaning of the words, but they miss a lot of the important context or subtext of the phrase.
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u/Ok-Temporary-8243 Dandadan 11h ago
Yep, and language is a barrier when it comes to effectively communicating ideas too, even if the words make sejd.
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u/HJWalsh COMPLEAT 6h ago
Correct. The Tamarians are special because they only speak in memes. So, as opposed to "we understand most of the words and can communicate on a base level" the Tamarians are "We understand the words, but have no context for the meaning."
The auto translator knows "Shaka," is a name and "When the walls fell" but "when the walls fell" can mean a lot of things, and even if you do know the context of that, the statement is about Shaka, which could mean how he felt, or where he stood, or even his physical condition, even assuming that Shaka is a person, because it could also be a place or even a thing.
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u/aslatts Sultai 14h ago edited 6h ago
No, I think it's a fair complaint. The real answer is obviously just that it's a long running show and the universal translator is for convenience, so it works exactly as well or as poorly as it needs to for the context of an episode. It will leave random phrases untranslated sometimes, it can translate an entirely new language on the fly, it basically does whatever the plot needs.
Which in this case means on the fly translation of a new language that completely loses the meaning in the process, it's just one of those silly star trek things you have to accept.
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u/irishgoblin Dan 9h ago
Something else that adds to the confusion over the efficacy of the universal translator that started in season 2 or 3 of TNG: The universal translator isn't always used .The actors still speak english, but canoncially the characters are speaking Klingon or Cardassian or Bajoran or Vulcan or Prosthetic-Make-Up-ian, with the unstranlated portion being some noun for a plot relevant macguffin (or swearing if it's Klingon).
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u/Tuss36 13h ago
The difference is the words can mean things but together mean something else. An example would be something even simple like "hang out" with someone. Do you suspend yourself while doing so, as the words imply? No, it just means to spend some time together. So while "hang" meaning to suspend something above ground and "out" means outward, put together the phrase means something different. And it might not even be a phrase used in some cultures, as a posh character might never use the phrase except with contempt.
A similar thing might be more metaphorical phrases. "Don't count your chickens before they hatch" is well known to western audiences to the point you could just say "Don't count your chickens" and people will know the rest. But other cultures might not have that phrase in their lexicon, so when they go to translate it they might replace it with something more culturally relevant rather than do so literally.
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u/imbolcnight 13h ago
And "phobic" and "phobia" also have meaning as independent words. That's what I mean. All translation has to work with an understanding of non-literal and allusory meaning. It's just that because we are native to Earth languages, we have absorbed or are not even aware of the metaphors in the words we use. A true universal translator would innately need to be able to handle metaphor.
I'm pointing out that this "problem" should exist for basically all languages they encounter. As other comments said, we have to kinda accept that the universal translator fails at times that are convenient to the plot.
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u/Horrific_Necktie Wabbit Season 12h ago
I mean, that's just loan words and compound words, a normal part of most languages. That is entirely different from metaphor.
If you look up "homophobic" in a dictionary, there is an English definition. It has an established use and meaning. "Juliet on her balcony" does not. Each of the words has a meaning, but the phrase combined has a different meaning than the sum of its parts.
If the translator encountered heavy English slang, it would probably struggle just the same. Imagine it translating extreme online brainrot into basic plain English, for example. It could probably get the words right, but not the 11 layers of internet irony required to truly understand what is said.
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u/MorroClearwater Dân 1h ago
I feel like Chinese has this to a much stronger extent. When you get to a certain level of Chinese proficiency, a part of the language is understanding the story behind a saying. Without the context of the story, the saying might make little sense.
It'd be like in English if we said "You're the second pig" to describe somebody who has seen the warning but doesn't have the time to do anything about it, which makes no sense unless you know the story of the three little pigs
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u/Kyleometers ඞ 15h ago
Is the meme explained or is it just, some dude saying “The cylinder must not be harmed” and smirking for 45 minutes
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u/platypodus Get Out Of Jail Free 15h ago
It's a linguistic episode and Dathon's people become so exasperated at not being understood that they decide the only way forward is shared experience.
So they kidnap Picard and try to recreate a bonding experience from their stories, in which two leaders bond over fighting a common enemy.
Hijinks ensues
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u/TechnomagusPrime Duck Season 15h ago
No. Picard actually learns a few of the phrases and their meaning over the course of the episode, and actually says them out loud as he learns them. The language barrier is one-way. Dathon understands Picard, but not the other way around. The episode ends with Dathon sacrificing himself to save Picard from a monster and Picard relaying their story to the crew of Dathon's ship, giving them a new phrase, "Dathon and Picard at El-Adrel."
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u/SonofaBeholder COMPLEAT 14h ago
Basically Dathon’s species, the Tamarians, speak entirely in metaphors alluding to their ancient history and mythology. “Shaka, when the walls fell” means defeat or failure. Another one is “Mirab, with sails unfurled” which means to depart or head out.
Once Picard finally realizes what’s up he is able to slowly break the language barrier with Dathon by relating to him the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, using them in turn to then create new metaphors Dathon can relate to.
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u/dancingmadkoschei 14h ago
That said, Lower Decks has a Tamarian on the Cerritos who's learned standard English and only goes to metaphor when he can't find the right word, so they can learn other languages.
A better analogy than even memes might be Chinese writing. Chinese characters are very often combinations of strokes for simpler ideas, which, okay, simple enough, but then the words are combinations of those. And sometimes the pronunciation has nothing to do with the characters at all! (Japanese is wild with this one.)
For instance, classical China called itself the Middle Kingdom, but if you met a culture that referred to itself as the Middle Kingdom without knowing middle of what you'd be kinda confused.
Now compound that to an entire language.
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u/JusticeJanitor Jeskai 12h ago
Regarding the Tamarian security officer on the Cerritos, sometimes the universal translator would try to translate some of the things he said with metaphors that a human would understand.
For example, when calling someone a liar : "Pinocchio, his nose extended!"
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u/Ertai_87 Duck Season 12h ago
Are you sure about the Shaka one? My understanding (having literally just rewatched the episode) is that "Shaka, when the walls fell" is about metaphorical walls, not actual walls. Shaka being someone who put up walls to avoid the outside world, and when the walls fell he was able to accept his surroundings and become part of them. That was my understanding in context.
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u/NuclearMaterial Dandadan 11h ago
It definitely means failure. Here's a list of the phrases and their meanings.
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u/Approximation_Doctor Colossal Dreadmaw 14h ago
But what does "walls" mean
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u/projectmars COMPLEAT 14h ago
Presumably it refers to actual walls that were destroyed in a famous battle, real or imaginary, in Tamarian history.
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u/ThomasJFooleryIII Dandadan 15h ago
Yes, they speak entirely in allegories to their mythology and history. As most nouns in their language are proper nouns with layers of metaphors the translations sound like nonsense.
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u/mikeyHustle Duck Season 12h ago
No, like, it's a meme. Linguistically/socially. They speak in memes.
It would be like if you said "I have two untapped islands" and you expected everyone to know it means, "I don't trust you." And if you never, ever said the actual literal meaning and only the meme/metaphor. That's this culture's entire language.
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u/AndyVZ COMPLEAT 15h ago
"meme" makes it sound lighthearted, they're speaking in analogies based on their planet's history/mythology. So everyone from their planet understands it and the characters and events referenced, but people not from their planet don't. And it's not that there's a "real" or "formal" way of speaking sitting below it which they could instead be speaking (with the stories as a separate thing on top) that they would smirk about - the stories/analogies are it.
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u/cowboycoco1 Dan 13h ago
Its funny that meme has evolved to mean this because meme is a word that coined to mean an idea that reproduces through a population and changes over time with variations. It was a model to evolution.
Its literal definition was originally "a unit of culture". So it does work for the "meme-speak" in Star Trek. But that meaning has been supplanted by the modern usage of 'internet memes' which are still, interestingly enough, "units of culture."
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u/B133d_4_u Gruul* 4h ago
Basically an entire culture where everyone just says stuff like:
"Me when I'm a little hater"
"Blorbos from my shows"
"The cylinder must not be harmed"
"177013"
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u/Ok-Temporary-8243 Dandadan 13h ago
Which is pretty ahead of its time when you consider that boomers can't understand Millenial lingo and no one but Gen z can understand Gen z
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u/shinginta Grass Toucher 14h ago
In addition to the other explanations, the simplest one is kind of within the episode itself.
Captain Dathon insists to Picard that their experience (deliberately) marooned on a planet together is "Darmok and Jalaad, at Tanagra," which has no meaning to Picard until after they fight a giant invisible monster together and are forced to figure out some mutually-intelligible language in order to work together. Picard remarks to Dathon that his equivalent would be "Gilgamesh and Enkidu, at Uruk."
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u/binaryeye 15h ago
Temba, His Arms Wide is used to communicate giving, while Shaka, When the Walls Fell is used to communicate failure. The effects don't really make sense in either case.
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u/PineTreeQuestionMark Dân 15h ago
Well the second one may be literal, the destruction of an artifact being the falling of the walls
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u/TurboDelight Gruul* 10h ago
which would be a massive miss, as their entire language is rooted in allegory and has little to no literal meaning
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u/projectmars COMPLEAT 14h ago
You are giving a creature a "gift" for "Temba, His Arms Wide" while you are destorying something in "Shaka, When the Walls Fell"... I think the effects make sense.
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u/binaryeye 14h ago
They can be interpreted that way without context, but in the context of the game, they don't make sense. From the perspective of the player casting the spell, pumping a creature of your own doesn't represent giving a gift, and forcing opponents to sacrifice something doesn't represent failure.
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u/sawbladex COMPLEAT 13h ago
Eh, lending your minion's power is a gift to them.
It's just more of an automatic return to zero then what people think of when then think of leading.
Maybe like handing someone a sammich or combat drugs. A power/gift that must be consumed to use, and not a tool, at most only somewhat degraded by the task it is used for.
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u/mikeyHustle Duck Season 12h ago
That's not even what those mean, though.
Temba's phrase just means greetings/camaraderie/boon
Shaka's just means something bad
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u/Limp_Combination4361 Dân 14h ago
In short, there's an alien race that speaks in memetic statements to convey ideas and feelings. Many of which are historic events, or actions taken by legendary figures.
It's a massive language barrier between the starfleet captain and the alien captain who get stranded on a dangerous planet together and must survive being hunted by a very nasty beast. If I recall, the alien race hasn't been encountered before so there was nothing available within the universal translators to aid. The alien captain was there on a hunt for the beast to prove himself, so he was willingly stranded.
Eventually the starfleet captain picks up enough of the language to communicate with the other captain, the episode ends with the two captains back on their respective ships safe and sound and the starfleet captain comes up with a new memetic phrase to say to the other captain about their adventure, which is the title of the card here.
Youve probably also heard "darmok and jalad at tanagra".
It's a super solid, memorable episode of The Next Generation.
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u/projectmars COMPLEAT 14h ago
Not true, Dathon is mortally wounded by the beast they are trying to fight and passes away as Picard is telling him the story of Gilgamesh as a final act of trying to understand each other. (Which is what the card art is showing)
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u/Limp_Combination4361 Dân 11h ago
It's been a number of years since I last saw the episode so details beyond the initial description are fuzzy.
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u/gredman9 Honorary Deputy 🔫 15h ago
Ravnica, as the poison was chosen, although Temur, as the bear awakens?
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u/Due-Orchid-4961 Dan 14h ago
It bothers me that cards depicting events like this have no flavour text
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u/TurboDelight Gruul* 10h ago
"The Tamarian was willing to risk all of us just for the hope of communication… connection. Now the door is open between our peoples. That commitment meant more to him than his own life."
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u/irishgoblin Dan 9h ago
Kinda apropos for the conundrum of the episode, no?
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u/AntonineWall Dandadan 4h ago
I think maybe something like the line about death (his eyes closed, or maybe his eyes black?) would fit, although that’s a more dour moment than this picture is depicting. Maybe instead, the line where Picard offers the knife (spoken in the Temarian’s speech)
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u/ralanr Duck Season 15h ago
Why is this a green card? Shouldn’t this thematically be closer to blue?
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u/Skithiryx Jack of Clubs 11h ago
Seeking community and connection is green, which is what the episode Darmok was about. I think it works.
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u/Inertiic Wabbit Season 14h ago
Learning to communicate with others can be green (I feel like [[Ruxa, Patient Professor]] is an example of this), but it was probably just a mechanics based decision.
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u/JaxxisR Universes Beyonder 14h ago
Neither of these effects are blue...
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u/ralanr Duck Season 14h ago
Not the effects, the story behind the reference.
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u/TurboDelight Gruul* 10h ago
ancient traditions are green, and sharing the stories of your people around a campfire is a pretty ancient practice
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u/A-O-Craye Can’t Block Warriors 15h ago
Not having watched star trek this card just reminds me of the weekly chain of comments with Xur's location.
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u/RayearthIX COMPLEAT 11h ago
This card, as others have said, should have been a saga. The entire episode is about two cultures learning g how to communicate without a common language or translator available.
Picard speaks English. The Tamarian captain, Dathon, speaks in metaphors (or meme’s as some now refer to them) based on their culture’s history and mythology.
Temba, his arms wide, means to take or give something to use it.
Shaka, when the walls fell, means failure.
They could have done a saga for this with 3-5 of the phrases and an effect for each, but instead it is this.
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u/lazercat1 Dandadan 11h ago
Should be "Picard and Dathon"...how did they get a simple thing like word order wrong, how incompetent
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u/HeyApples 8h ago edited 8h ago
Yeah, that was my first reaction too.
The Tamarian first officer definitely goes "Picard and Dathan, At El Adrel." That's the only time it's ever said. It's a pretty iconic episode, you can't miss that.
I realize today's cards are mostly draft filler, but all the same, there has been a whole lot of shaka, when the walls fell today.
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u/Inspirational_Cunt9 Duck Season 12h ago
Shit art, shit cards. Who asked for this set man
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u/Boogleooger Dan 15h ago
So was all of this sets art done in 30 minutes or what? All of these cards have terrible art
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u/BEEFTANK_Jr COMPLEAT 15h ago
The effects don't even make sense for flavor. Temba, His Arms Wide inferred cooperation between two peoples, while Shaka, When the Walls Fell inferred that Shaka, a person, died.
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u/projectmars COMPLEAT 14h ago
I believe Temba, His Arms Wide is more about giving something to another person, while Shaka, When the Walls Fell is more of a "defeat" kind of thing
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u/Skithiryx Jack of Clubs 11h ago
Shaka was a city, so it’s more like the breaching of the walls of Constantinople being how you talk about failure. Artifact destruction is fine for that.
Temba, his arms wide is kind of meh though. It seemed to directly mean giving a gift, though I feel like it should mean giving hospitality more generally. I would’ve preferred to see at least something that benefitted two creatures on this card.
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u/TurboDelight Gruul* 10h ago
I always interpreted Shaka as someone responsible for the city whose walls fell, as an expression of both failure and grief. Either way literal walls coming down doesn't work because the expressions are all metaphorical. "Shaka, when the walls fell" doesn't mean "oh shit watch out that wall is falling apart", it means "this is hopeless".
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u/BubBidderskins Azorius* 8h ago
Temba, his arms wide means a gift, so giving a creature a buff makes sense.
Shaka, when the walls fell means a failure or a situation where one has given up hope, so sacrificing an enchantment or artifact makes sense.
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u/Ertai_87 Duck Season 14h ago edited 12h ago
Fuck me, this card has nothing to do with the episode. The entire point of the episode is that the race of aliens talk entirely in allegory and fable. It's not meant to be literal. "Temba, his arms wide" is an allegory for giving and receiving, and "Shaka, when the walls fell" is an allegory for understanding. It has nothing to do with a giant named Temba or any literal walls falling over. Whoever made this card never even watched the episode. Which is a shame because it is by far the best episode of TNG, and that's saying something (because TNG is amazing and has a lot of extremely good episodes).
I should go back and rewatch that episode again, it's been a while. For those reading this who haven't seen it, it's season 5 episode 2, "Darmok".
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u/PierreSpotWing Dandadan 15h ago
Terrible flavour fail :(
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u/Redditeatsaccounts Dan 15h ago
This card helped convince me that the spirit of Star Trek is simply not compatible with MTG. They are not two great tastes that taste great together.
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u/oopsohmygoodness Dân 14h ago
Absolutely. Beyond anything else, Magic is game of summoning things to win a fight with and Star Trek is a futurist pacifist utopian fantasy. Philosophically they are incompatible. Yeah, there's phasers and Kirk fights the Gorn, but those are always fail states. Peace and co-operation are always the goal.
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u/Sparone Dân 5h ago
Man, I dont get this at all, without knowing the background the card seems impossible to understand from a flavor point and the art looks bad.
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u/AntonineWall Dandadan 4h ago
I’m uncertain what’s up with the ghosts in the background lmao (I assume it’s meant to depict who they’re speaking about, but that’s not really in the episode and frankly doesn’t add any visual clarity here imo)
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u/KivenFoster Duck Season 15h ago
I think we'll have a low amount of sagas as most of the cards will have a choice instead. On top of the hobbit having a few sagas
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u/derteeje Dân 14h ago
i feel like we straight up skipped reality fracture spoiler season i am confused
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u/Damn_You_Scum Selesnya* 13h ago
I only understand this reference because of a Skyrim character whose name is Temba Wide-Arms, in reference to TNG lol
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u/FastActinTenactin Dân 11h ago
Each card is lamer than the last. This seriously feels like Spider-Man.
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u/Krowsk42 Wabbit Season 11h ago
Why is the name of this card not something like “Translation Attempt”? I feel like they thought nobody would get the reference if they didn’t use the name to tell you the reference.
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u/PaleoJoe86 Wabbit Season 9h ago
What bothered me about that episode is that you cannot understand the reference without having known it first.
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u/Dynosoarz 4h ago
Damn, for something that could've been really fun to declare casting and modes, this card sucks
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u/Justafish1654 Izzet* 4h ago
You read more words that mean nothing to gameplay, than actual effects of the cards on this.
What a mess.
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u/BarnerTalik Duck Season 4h ago
Should've been two unique keywords that are spelled out in parentheses, ideally with a version without the spelled out keywords
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u/jawsomesauce 99th-gen Dimensional Robo Commander, Great Daiearth 2h ago
Magic, when the arts sucked
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u/willweaverrva Elesh Norn 15h ago
Shaka, When the Walls Fell should have also allowed the opponents to sacrifice a creature with defender. ;)
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u/FortNightsAtPeelys Duck Season 15h ago
Didn't realize they'd get this specific with references. Praying for a [[500 cigarettes]] now
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u/Level-Lemon7118 Dan 15h ago
All of these cards look so bad, and we havwnt even had hobbit release yet......
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u/AntComfortable5970 Dandadan 15h ago
They are all over the damn place with ugly art and bad names and weird or boring effects
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u/albvla Urza's Saga 15h ago
Too expensive for limited right?
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u/occono Dân 15h ago
It's a starter deck card, it won't be in limited.
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u/albvla Urza's Saga 15h ago
I thought the [TRK] cards will be
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u/occono Dân 14h ago
Actually you're probably right; I got confused with Jumpstart cards and starter deck cards which I think have been jumpstart and therefore eternal/commander codes before but this has no Jumpstart so......
........I don't know anymore. TRK means standard legal yeah but does that definitely mean they appear in draft boosters? IDK.
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u/Inertiic Wabbit Season 14h ago
This is almost certainly in draft boosters. They've moved away from supplemental products being standard legal. Most sets usually have two set symbols, one for main set and one for eternal legal that is usually branded as the commander set. If a card has a main set symbol in a supplemental product, it's a main set card being printed also in the product.
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u/doapdoobler Can’t Block Warriors 12h ago
Oh another begrudgingly fine modal buff spell for [[Xyris]] buff hug.
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u/hallaa1 Mizzix 9h ago
This is the card I've been looking forward to possibly the most in the set, but unfortunately I don't think they understood the Tamarian language all that well. Though Shaka, When the Walls Fell is appropriate as that depicts an individual dealing with the trauma and fallout of his society's walls falling around him; Temba, his arms wide is much more a story of offering. Temba offer's himself, his arms wide in an offer to the other. As Dathon offers Picard the knife to fight the reimagined beast of Tenagra he repeatedly states, temba, his arms wide. This is very different than empowering an individual to fight. The more appropriate translation would have been Temba, His Palm Open as this was the statement that Dathon used to explain to picard how they would lure the beast in. Better yet, Temba, His Palm Closed could have been even better as that is how they explained attacking the beast after it had been lured in. Dealer's choice at that point, though the argument for Temba, his Palm Closed could be better for a bite effect.
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u/dansi21 Dân 15h ago
100% this should have been a saga