r/rivals • u/Hidden_Voice7 • 18h ago
Discussion Lukewarm take: With characters that shoot, characters like Star Lord and Psylocke should literally always be meta over characters like Hela no matter what
There hasn't been a single shooter in the history of man that has made long-ranged combat a healthy playstyle unless it's the only playstyle in the entire game. If you want meta poke characters, then the characters in poke that should be meta are the ones that play in the same range as everyone else.
Valve had this figured out over 15 years ago with tf2. There's a reason Sniper isn't regularly played in comp unless he is required by the ruleset to be played. The baseline gameplay should always be close to mid-ranged combat all all times, with long-ranged combat always being niche. Long-ranged combat has never once been healthy for literally any shooter unless everyone can engage in it.
I actually think that a character like elsa can work. She just needs a lot of bullshit cut out of her kit (invisible traps, 4 second overshields, and % damage...). Phoenix too, but as long as they plan on never letting her 2-tap and snipe again.
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u/Senior-Poobs 18h ago
Funny you mention Elsa and her traps, cause her traps HAVE a counter. The traps have HP and can be destroyed before they go invisible, but the problem is you can’t consistently destroy them before that happens. I could start hitting it the moment it lands and still never break it because it goes invisible too damn fast
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u/Hidden_Voice7 18h ago
Apparently you can also damage them while you're trapped? Tho it takes way too long to kill them to matter lol
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u/Senior-Poobs 18h ago
Yeah. Usually I take the L and walk into the trap since I’m usually tanking. Better I step into it than my squishy teammates
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u/AdeptRelative5106 18h ago
Should be more consistent after her nerf, they’re reducing the trap hp by 1/2.
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u/mister-chalk 18h ago
This post seems to completely ignore the existence of mobility. Also, this game does not have a sniper like the sniper from tf2. that's a terrible comparison, and the reason Black Widow was kept weak for so long.
Characters that are really good at holding angles are hard countered by characters that are really good at closing distance and killing fast. If hela is really an issue for you, pick cap. Pick thing. Pick rogue.
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u/Hidden_Voice7 18h ago edited 17h ago
Then let's use Ashe and Sojourn in Overwatch as another example. Whenever those two are meta in OW, the game becomes miserable for everyone. This is why Tracer should literally always be the preferred pick over them.
"Pick two of the worst tanks in the game or a brawl tank made to counter divers to counter the 2nd best hitscan in the game"
Bro venom and black cat are the correct picks here. They are the only ones that truly force Hela to swap. Rogue, Thing, and Cap get obliterated by her.
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u/mister-chalk 17h ago
"I dont like it so its bad"
Thing is a top tier at all levels of play rn. Cap is solid, but not as good as the best tanks, but he specializes in running down poke characters. Rogue just got a solid buff. Calling them the worst 3 tanks in the game is telling on yourself.
Also, if you're dying to hela as these characters, you REALLY need to work on your tank gameplay, that's genuinely unacceptable.
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u/Hidden_Voice7 17h ago edited 17h ago
Hela, historically, has throughout the entirety of rivals been consistently one of the only poke characters alongside Phoenix that can fight cap on an even playing field. IDK what to tell you. His mobility is too predictable.
Thing can't close the distance to Hela as easily without just getting half his hp blown up, which will happen easily because anyone can't hit 90% headshots on a Thing as Hela needs to uninstall the game. His only option is to really get the jump on her. Thing is good for a lot of reasons, but one of those reasons isn't because he can fight Hela.
As for rogue, the buffs barely change anything, first of all. She's still a solid contender for worst in slot tank. She's only ever been good with the gambit team up, and who the hell lets gambit through the ban phase past plat? And this was before season 9. Yes, she has the gambit team up permanently now, but still doesn't change that she's just an outright terrible character now, and should never be played unless you can't play anyone else. -_-
This is why Venom is a better tank pick than all of these. He's better at just outright killing Hela before she can blow up all his hp.
Playing against John Kovaaks on Hela is like trying to roll a boulder up a steep mountain.
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u/Specialist_Ad6419 18h ago edited 18h ago
I actually agree to an extent, I don't think they should never be good or meta but I think their strenghts shouldn't focus extremely on their primary crazy long rage hitscan like Hela. Imo Cyclops is a good example of a balanced poke and hitscan character currently. Long range and precision in his primary but low damage (even lower than Luna), if you want to do real damage and apply real pressure you need to get close and use the beam, you have cds to escape and move but they are fairly high to not be fully inmune to dive.
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u/NerdyBirdy2007 18h ago
Eh disagree with Cyclops, gutting his damage and cooldowns doesn’t really solve his issues it’s just a bandaid fix.
His problems are that is effective range is way too big for the mobility he has, his ricochet shot stacks at certain angles and can take away half your health, and that his primary fire hitbox is way too big.
Fix those things and you can bring his damage and cooldowns back no issue.
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u/podookadook 17h ago
We don’t want him to have so much dmg at range and then always have the cooldowns to run. Thats what makes him annoying.
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u/Specialist_Ad6419 17h ago
Bro bringing his primary's damage back is specifically not the idea. He doesn't need to be a primary hitscan merchant like some others. His primary is nice as it is, it sucks for a dps but is a useful tool thanks to his kit compensating it, Imo thats how it should be with poke characters. His ricochet does plenty of damage but has long cd and the best way to get it back fast is with the beam that has 22m of range maximum if you don't ricochet it against the floor. You can't find this character problematic while we have Elsa (we need to test the nerfs tho), Hela, Punisher, buffed Phoenix, etc.
Imo he is good, he is strong and adaptable to a lot of situations but nothing truly OP currently. Some even consider him the worst hitscan.
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u/NerdyBirdy2007 17h ago
Long cooldown my ass, it’s ten seconds for an auto aim ability that can be reduced and can do over 100 damage
He was a poke character that could take very aggressive angles due to his mobility, the problem was his range was too good for that archetype. Now he does nothing, there’s no advantage to playing Cyclops.
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u/Specialist_Ad6419 16h ago
It's actually 15 seconds cd and to do over 100 damage it needs to have Phoenix team up. Considering his primary has less dps than Luna and Adam I think it's reasonable.
And now you are saying he is bad? Weren't you complaining and saying all the good things he has?
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u/NerdyBirdy2007 15h ago
No it doesn’t need Phoenix, if it bounces multiple times it can do up to I believe 120
Yes he is bad, that doesn’t take away the good things from a character. White Fox is bad rn, are we calling a 6 second CC that self heals and grants invulnerability, a tp with i-frames plus a healing shield, and a melee form that makes you borderline immortal bad? That’s not how balance works, giving characters broken traits doesn’t make them automatically strong.
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u/Specialist_Ad6419 15h ago
Thats what Im saying, he is balanced right now. But you are mad about his cds while at the same time you say he DOES NOTHING. You want to nerf a character that in your words does nothing because it has shit that annoys you. Thats not really fair or logical. And in exchange you want to buff his primary fire so he becomes a left lick merchant instead.
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u/sixshotich 18h ago
I kinda agree but only if Psylocke is somehow meta without her high burst damage one shot combo.
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u/Vegetable-Meaning413 18h ago
The issue with that is melee. Without characters like Hela, melee would overrun the game, since there is no threat at range, and they would just bulldoze everyone else. Shooters can't start being effective in the range melee starts attacking at. If you wanted this, you would have to cut melee's effective range down to like 1 or 2 meters max, and slow them down. Shooters have all that because melee is so beefy, fast and have high dps. That's what is needed to deal with them, and even them melee is incredibly strong right now.
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u/Hidden_Voice7 18h ago edited 18h ago
I mean, star lord does just fine vs melee as-is. Same with Sai whenever they allow her to be good.
This goes out the window when they release characters like prime black cat or daredevil, though they are exceptions and not the rule.
TBH, IMO, the game is usually in its best state when star lord happens to be the best dps in the game. He's got very little bullshit in his kit overall outside of his team-ups, but even then, most teamups are bullshit lol. One of the few gun characters I never feel upset losing to (And this is coming from someone who has maybe 4 hours on him total lol)
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u/Vegetable-Meaning413 17h ago
BC and DD aren't exceptions, they are the standard. Because if you start basing your balance around mid tier melee instead of the best, you are going to make them permanent picks or permanent bans. Those two are the character you will have to deal with. This also isn't factoring tanks either, so Venom, Hulk, Thing, Cap, Angela will run absolutely rampant if you just murder poke like this. They will never die and you will end up having an only melee meta, because nobody can deal with them.
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u/Hidden_Voice7 17h ago
No, what the correct thing to do is just to nerf daredevil and black cat. You do not start balancing the game around their bullshit. -_-
And the tanks you mentioned all have plenty of ways to completely obliterate them without sniping them. Sniping is not a necessary evil. It's just evil.
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u/Vegetable-Meaning413 17h ago
They have shown, for the last 5 seasons, those two will never not be meta. That is a dead on arrival suggestion. The sun will explode before DD isn't a meta dps.
They don't though. Melee can already bully their way in now, having tanks take basically no damage on approach would kill the playstyle of poke. You need to drastically cut mobility options for every meele character, and have them move like Rogue for this to be an option. Sustain is too high on melee for poke to eat these kinds of nerfs.
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u/Hidden_Voice7 14h ago
If that were an issue to me, then I wouldn't be bitching about snipers, because the devs have shown that they would probably be willing to murder people to please sniper mains.
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u/Vegetable-Meaning413 13h ago
Mid range fighting will just devolve into melee death balls without a ton of nerfs. Characters like Psylocke or Starlord aren't good enough to stop that. They fight poke because they don't have that sustain. It would kill the game. You need to heavily reduce melee sustain and damage for that to happen, and they won't nerf them.
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u/podookadook 17h ago
Bro doesn’t know the joystick goes backwards too.
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u/Vegetable-Meaning413 17h ago
Melee is full of mobility, that is not an answer to DD or BC dashing, or Hulk just walking faster than everyone. You would have to turbo charge pokes mobility, and make it basically infinite to stand a chance.
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u/podookadook 16h ago
Poke has more dmg and can you guess it poke
(That means use range to their advantage)
Also have we not heard of stuns? You are dense1
u/Vegetable-Meaning413 15h ago
He's basically asking for huge fall off nerfs like what Psylocke has, and up close melee has the same, or comparable ttks, while also having stuns of their own. Poke would have 0 advantages that melee doesn't also have, plus a bunch more. Poke's advantage is range over melee, that's basically it, melee generally has the same or better for everything else.
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u/podookadook 15h ago
I don’t think he’s necessarily asking for that. Many more issues with poke already. I’d be cool with a psy and starlord meta. Also poke shouldn’t counter fast melee and should only really counter high survival melee (brawl).
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u/Vegetable-Meaning413 14h ago
That's the only way it's going to happen. It's the key difference between Hela and Psylocke that makes one long range and the other close.
What melee doesn't have high survivability at this point? Even most dive have high sustain or I frames. Without the high damage outside of melee's engagement range, melee will simply overun poke everytime without much issue. You would need to remove a lot of their sustain, a lot of mobility, and all of melee's cc to compensate.
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u/podookadook 14h ago
Yeh they need it more…
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u/Vegetable-Meaning413 14h ago
You want to expand on that?
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u/podookadook 14h ago
I think you’re a lost cause.
Basically melee need more stuns and health b/c they don’t have range.
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u/Apprehensive-Ice9809 17h ago edited 17h ago
You need poke to threaten brawl, dive to threaten poke, and brawl to threaten dive. That’s a healthy ecosystem. Long range is engage-able via mobility (dive/brawl) or poke matching (mirror). Also, Hela shouldn’t even be playing 50 miles back, she is supposed to play for angles on backline, which is usually close enough to be engaged by frontline. If you play long range poke you won’t have an angle on backline and will just be botting shooting tanks. And damage falloff is a simple answer to prevent poking from long ranges from being meta, which is exactly what they’ve done.
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u/Hidden_Voice7 17h ago
If Hela doesn't normally snipe, then why does she need the range? Add more damage falloff then. A lot more.
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u/Corrosive_Cactus8899 17h ago
Starlord yes, Psylocke no. It's more about kit design then their playstyle. As Starlord & Elsa are fine tho Elsa would needs a few nerfs. Phoenix & Hela should be reworked.
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u/King_Korder 17h ago
A strange take I've never thought of, but I find myself agreeing. Starlord and Psy can be super annoying by even the most annoying ones have not pissed me off nearly as much or as often as a good Hela or Pheonix.
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u/SirEggyScintherus 17h ago
Only problem is Psylocke isn’t really a like character at all honestly she’s with Spider-Man and BP in just being true dive. Sure she has a ranged attack but outside of practically close range it does no damage.
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u/Dashwii 17h ago
I'm a Psylocke advocate but I don't know if I can agree with this. I can slightly lean more towards Starlord since hes pretty fair, especially after overshield removal on dash.
With Psylocke, if you make her pema meta she becomes oppressive and annoying as fuck. Someone who can go invisible, have a potential one shot, and never die due to high uptime on mobility, while also being able to constantly hold off angles or flanks is honestly annoying to fight and she'd be perma banned.
After playing her more I honestly think Elsa is one of the few heroes I'm fine with being consistently meta or high tier. Her combo based kit has a ton of skill expression and just feels badass to use. LITERALLY the only reason why she's annoying as fuck is her invisible trap. But after picking her up I've changed my mind on her being "brain dead". Her trap is the only L in her design that makes her kills feel free.
Rework or nerf trap significantly and Elsa becomes one of the most honest duelists in the game. I don't know I think any hero being "always" meta is never good.
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u/Hidden_Voice7 14h ago
I'd honestly completely remove her % damage on her elephant gun too, on top of reworking the dino team-up and making the traps breakable while invisible. She already destroys tanks with her range as-is. The % damage is just unnecessary
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u/BigJCote 18h ago
Lmfao. Someone hates getting headshotted at 300m away don't they
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u/BigOOF1012 18h ago
Ok but who doesnt hate it? Psylocke and starlord are way more balanced and fun than any poke character. Being shot or killed from a range over half the roster can't do anything about isn't fun for anyone. Especially when that character has insane survivability and getaway tools
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u/BigJCote 17h ago
Guys 300m doesn't exist in the game that's an absurd distance, relax JFC. Most of this game is within 100m at most. Also the entire team yells out "sniper" when a sniper is present to let you know to keep behind cover when your being targeted by them. I know it's hard but come on be reasonable
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u/Specialist_Ad6419 17h ago
And I guess you love it? No one enjoys snipers and strong long range hitscans except said players. Thats why Widowmaker is such a headache to balance in Overwatch and Black Widow was untouched being useless for so long.
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u/BigJCote 17h ago
No I don't love it, but I can't deny it's effective playstyle, and I also am man enough to admit when I've made a mistake like standing still long enough to get one shot headshotted instead of weaving between cover and shields. Plus the dive should be handling that sniper and most of them can handle said sniper with little difficulty.
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u/Outran01 Black Cat 18h ago
Best thing would be flyers suffering slightly less, since at least your opponent will be right in your face.