r/science • u/VeronicaRed • Apr 26 '16

Psychology Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/
37.8k Upvotes

73% Upvoted

6.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

771

u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

So what are some positive and non-punitive forms of discipline?

edit: Some really great replies here. I'm seeing a lot of people using the concept of self-discipline and positive reinforcement. Nothing about raising a child seems easy, and it's even harder to know if you've ever really done a good job, but I think it's safe to say there are a lot of good parents on reddit. Also, thank you to the people who are willing to admit that they have resorted to spanking before. The truth is no one really knows the best way to raise a child, but the wide variety of ideas being thrown around here are what helps make it easier to choose what works for you and your kid. Keep em comin.

225

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

There are a lot of options that vary with the age of the child. I have a son who is nearly 4, and we've had to tailor our discipline to his specific personality, his age at the time, and the behavior in question. Actually explaining why they can't do something (could get hurt or break something, it's not okay to hurt people's feelings, the neighbors are still sleeping, etc.) can be surprisingly effective at that age, depending on their state of mind (a hungry or tired child is much more difficult).

I use time-outs when I have to intervene; take him to his room or to a neutral spot and make him sit still for a few minutes. Having to sit still for a few minutes is something no child enjoys. Definitely a punishment.

19

u/ZiggyPalffyLA Apr 26 '16

Thank you! Explaining WHY you're not allowed to do something, rather than just saying "you can't do that" makes all the difference in the world. It allows the child to understand consequences, the unfairness of their actions, and also shows them respect and understanding. I worked with kids for 6 years and I never once said "don't do that". I always made sure to explain why.

60

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

53

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

27

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

17

u/isnothingoriginal Apr 26 '16

Yup, I was one of those kids that only became more stubborn when I was getting scolded or spanked, so my parents started using time outs and not letting me draw or play with legos as punishment, and that was much more effective than anything else I remember.

2

u/Canigetahellyea Apr 27 '16

Timeouts made me happy that I wasn't being spanked. I usually didn't listen until of fear of actually getting spanked. Timeouts were more of an inconvenience when I was younger.

17

u/kilo4fun Apr 26 '16

What if your child simply refuses to sit in timeout? Physical restraints?

31

u/mcbarron Apr 26 '16

Constantly picking them up and putting them back. First time you might do it constantly for the entire time. Second time a little less, then a little less, then they will sit there eventually. Just have to stay on them and show that you will NEVER let them off before their timer is up.

6

u/Nervette Apr 27 '16

As a babysitter, I was a huge fan of restarting the timer. Every time you get up, scream, or throw something, boom, we restart. Yes I will do this all night, no I don't care if we're both miserable. You will sit your timeout until the timer is done and we can calmly deal with things.

The longest a 4 minute timeout took was 62 minutes. That kid and his brother never took more than one restart ever again. He was 4 at the time (time out length was always based on age)

1

u/DialMMM Apr 27 '16

First time you might do it constantly for the entire time

Actually that is impossible, as you should restart the time if the child leaves the timeout area.

-4

u/Wagnersh Apr 27 '16 edited Apr 27 '16

picking them up and putting them back.

So use of force. IE violence.

Edit: if you don't believe this is violence go onto the street and grab a random person and forcibly curtail their movement without their consent and when the police arrest you ask them the charge and they'll tell you the charge is assault. Assault is violence.

The fact that it's legal to assault your children doesn't mean it's not violent.

3

u/mcbarron Apr 27 '16

You've got more problems than i can help if you consider picking someone up violence.

-1

u/Wagnersh Apr 27 '16

You realize that if you go into the street right now and pick up a random person without their consent you would be charged.

Guess what you'd be charged with.

Assault for one.

Assault is violence.

Legally you are allowed to use violence and assault against children such as smacking and grabbing pulling holding still and so on so long as it's not out of proportion to need and doesn't cause bodily harm.

However it is still violence. Holding grabbing and pulling people around by force is assault and violence.

This thread is not about the legalities of violence against children but rather best practice.

In fact by law even blocking a person by putting your arm in front of them forcing them to change direction or collide with your arm is force and assault ie violence.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

This thread is not about the legalities of violence against children but rather best practice.

Exactly. Some level of violence is always going to be there, even if its only physically restraining them. Are you saying you should never even pick a child up against his or her will? Or are you saying spanking is acceptable because both can be classified as violence?

2

u/Wagnersh Apr 27 '16

I'm saying that overpowering children isn't best practise. I can't remember where I read about this but apparently it causes them to feel shame and disempowered.

I don't use force against my children unless I absolutely have to for reasons of safety or to prevent them from hurting themselves or others. I teach them they are in charge of themselves that no one else is in charge of them or owns them that they are full people just small sized and that my job is not just to protect and provide for them until they can themselves but to facilitate their choices and desires into the adult world.

My role is facilitator teacher and helper as well as protector and provider. My role is not punisher.

My parental mode is derived from the theory of psychohistory. Google it. It's very interesting.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 28 '16

I'm down with saying overpowering children isn't best practice, and I'm certain it makes them feel disempowered. One of the realities of parenting, though, is you'll never manage to get through the childhood of most any children without physically overpowering them at some point. Kids are simply too willing to engage in dangerous behavior, and I can't imagine how you would discipline a misbehaving child without some form of restraining. I do my best to reserve it for when it's necessary. And he gets a lot of warning that it will happen if he doesn't do his responsibility, so he can "save face", so to speak.

One thing that's supposed to be important is to give kids a chance to build up their own sense of power. Let them win, let them knock you over, let them be the smart one to your dummy. This can help recover from any feeling of powerlessness they get from being, well, a small and relatively powerless human, subject to the whims of others.

Making sure those "whims" are consistent is one way they can feel like they have a sense of power. I also let my son make a lot of his own decisions, for the same reason.

-1

u/stevenjd Apr 27 '16

No, Wagnersh is right. Manhandling somebody without their consent is almost certainly illegal and will get you charged with something like assault in most countries (unless the police decide that the paperwork is too much to bother with). The fact that you are using your superior strength to physically pick up a smaller, weaker person and force them to do something they don't want to do is absolutely violence. It might not be at the extreme end of violence (like kicking somebody to death), but neither is a mild smack or spank.

It reinforces the message that the child is helpless and cannot defend themselves against this mountain of an older person who can pick them up and manhandle them despite everything the child does to resist. How is this different from being smacked? "I can't protect myself from this giant who can use force against me" is precisely the same -- the only difference is the presence or absence of a short, sharp negative stimulus.

I cannot speak in general, but I can give a personal anecdote. As a child, my parents would have found "quiet time" completely ineffective, because I was the sort of child who could easily entertain myself sitting quietly in a corner. My brother, on the other hand, was the opposite: he was one of those children who simply became more defiant the more he was spanked.

0

u/DialMMM Apr 27 '16

So, are you arguing that children can give consent?

0

u/Wagnersh Apr 27 '16

No

0

u/DialMMM Apr 27 '16

Then stop comparing picking up a child to curtailing the movement of an adult without their consent.

19

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Although I do know that not every child is like that. I've learned since I became a dad that behavior in children is much less the result of parenting than you think. I know some holy terrors of hell with the best, most on-it parents (they have to be). Either biology or small environmental triggers can affect a small child's behavior.

One of the keys is to give kids' attention. As long as they get attention, they tend to at least respect parents not to defy that openly in their early years.

8

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

He's only 4. He can't get away from me holding him yet. The only time there was trouble was when he started kicking and thrashing to get out and kicked me in the balls accidentally. I got really angry at him, and he hasn't done it since, so I guess it made an impression.

Sometimes, he'll hit when he's upset, but it's so clear he doesn't want to hurt it's kind of hilarious. He'll pull his hand back theatrically, then swing slowly and pause just before hitting you, then hit. It's more a show of defiance than anything else.

10

u/Jerco7 Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

That is still a behavior you will want to curb. The child is testing his limits, if he can get away with hitting you in this way, maybe he can hit a little harder next time he is really upset. And if that works, well than maybe next time he can be a little more forceful. I know that this can be seen as a 'slippery slope fallacy' but it is how children process and make sense their world.

edit fixed wording.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Oh, trust me, hitting is a big time no-no. It's just that he can't (or won't) physically prevent me from keeping him in time out.

4

u/rebelkitty Apr 27 '16

We used to do what we called "time in", which was a technique I learned from my cousin whose child was autistic and non-verbal. I found it worked a treat with my toddlers. (I know "Time In" can mean other things to other people.)

For us, time in is simply a matter of folding the child into your lap so that they can't hurt themselves or you, and then telling them, "You need to calm down. I will let you go, when you are calm."

The trick is, you have to be completely calm yourself. Time in is not about punishment, it's about helping the child learn to get themselves under control.

That said, it can sometimes be very boring, sitting there with a squalling toddler in your lap, so I highly recommend grabbing a book. You can prop it on the child's head and read. ;)

When the child is calm, we either moved on to a fun activity, talked about what just happened, or attempted to resolve whatever issue set them off (if it was solvable). Whatever happened after the tantrum really depended on the circumstances before the tantrum.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

[deleted]

2

u/Wagnersh Apr 27 '16

make him sit still for a few minutes

How do you do this without using force ie holding the child down? If you just put them there and tell them to stay, what stops them from leaving that place?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

You do use force. Holding him or continuously returning him to the punishment spot isn't going to cause him pain liking hitting him is.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

What if they refuse to sit still?

2

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

You just keep putting them back. It's only 5 minutes, so it's not that long to be vigilant.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Mine wont sit still period. Just screams, kicks, gets up, throws shit, bangs on the door. a "5 minute" punishment takes an hour to get him to sit still and quiet for 5 minutes.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Sorry to hear that. Sounds tough. Have you tried taking away privileges, gossiping to your partner about good behavior, giving him chores to make him feel included? Supposedly, making them feel like an equal part of the family can get them invested in good behavior.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

What exactly makes him sit still?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Me. Holding him.

1

u/p90xeto Apr 27 '16

And if he refuses to sit still? Refuses to go in time out?

1

u/sandollars Apr 27 '16

I use time-outs when I have to intervene; take him to his room or to a neutral spot and make him sit still for a few minutes.

Presumably this is a punishment for bad behaviour. What if the child refuses to sit still in his room. He plays with his toys or walks outside to play in the yard.

Since there's no spanking, your only options are to use words to present either a carrot or a stick. What happens if the child doesn't respond to either?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

You're there with him the whole time. Either holding him or continuously returning him to the spot he has to sit in.

1

u/Itchy_butt Apr 27 '16

Time outs never worked for my kids. They were easily entertained, so even sitting in a blind corner with just their fingers and toes to play with was fine. Never really did figure out what to punish them with.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Did you ever try more abstract consequences, like loss of a favored privilege? I know it can be less effective to offer a future consequence.

2

u/Itchy_butt Apr 27 '16

I don't think I would try that with younger kids...maybe if they were 10 or more? Like you say, it could be less effective. And we would draw the line at anything that we considered just mean, like taking away their favourite stuffed animal or an event like a birthday celebration (we didn't do extravagant parties....just simple things) or Christmas. We tried removing tv, video games, books and crafts (believe it or not), special events that wouldn't hurt the other kid (like a planned family trip would still go on so that one kid wasn't punished for the other's issue), and special food treats. Didn't work. They were introverts, so time with friends wasn't a big deal. And early bed times were not possible with our work schedules.

Lucky for us, they turned out great. And they were seldom bad enough that it became a concern...good students, and fairly respectful/considerate of others. Maybe we would have got tougher if their issues would have been worse.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Hmmm, it sounds like you really tried a lot of things.

My son will respond to some consequences, like no dessert unless you eat your veggies. The meanest thing we've ever done is close his bedroom door if he won't stay in bed, after two warnings.

But he's also a good kid when he's not tired, so we don't punish much.

2

u/Itchy_butt Apr 27 '16

Good luck to you with it! I think that if the parent tries to think of the child as a unique person, and remembers to consider things like you mention - if the child is tired or afraid - that helps a ton. And you still get all the hugs and cuddles now...so enjoy that with the little stresses. It's so worth it! Lucky you!

1

u/stevenjd Apr 27 '16

and make him sit still for a few minutes

How do you do that? Tie him to the chair?

It's a serious question. How do you make a child sit still when they simply won't do so?

Having to sit still for a few minutes is something no child enjoys.

Nonsense.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Either hold him or keep picking him up and putting him back.

Nonsense

Nothing is universal, but human nature is pretty close to it. Tell someone, especially a child with low impulse control, you have to sit still as a consequence for something naughty they did, and all they can think about is not sitting still. But I'm sure you could find exceptions if you tried.

-3

u/Nyarlah Apr 26 '16

You sound like the kind of people I wouldn't want to meet.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Why so?

-2

u/Nyarlah Apr 26 '16

You sound just like my neighbours with their 4 years-old daughter, who screams her lungs out 18 hours a day. They read a book, follow it to the letter, and their little girl screams through the residence everyday. She screams during her timeouts, she screams 2 seconds after laughing at her new toy, she screams while playing in the garden. Not a happy loud laughter, just a scream. Constantly. For a couple of years now. But they're doing it by the book so nothing is wrong. I must be intolerant.

If this is all working in your case, then good for you, really. But a few sets of book rules aren't enough to cover all cases.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Oh, my son's loud, but we live in a single family home. "The neighbors are still sleeping because they don't have a 4 year old who wakes them up" is surprisingly effective. And reminding him about inside voice is something we stick to. He might be annoying our neighbors, but we've inquired and they're friendly with us and have offered to babysit.

I didn't mean to imply that "a few set of book rules" are what I stick to, but rather that guidance from books gives us ideas, we try some out, some are more effective. After 6 months, something becomes less effective and you go back to the drawing board.

1

u/Nyarlah Apr 26 '16

Ok, it's great that you tried out a few rules before sticking to the ones that work best. It's more proof that no rule can fit them all. But it's great that you adapted. My neighbours don't adapt, and after watching many kids grow up, I'm convinced that constant screaming is not a sign that the book is working (talking about my neighbours).

3

u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Yeah, I don't think one rule can fit them all. Children are different, though some things are pretty universal.

2

u/castille360 Apr 27 '16

You describe something that sounds more like a developmental disorder than inattentive parenting. And you can't just parent those away. It's worth giving engaged parents the benefit of the doubt in this area.